dwarf lycanthrope

[Skorni]

hello everyone. i was just struck with the idea of a new character, a dwarf werebear out on adventure in the effort to help people. I'm not sure on what class is better for him, though. I thought of making him a favored soul of Moradin because I liked the idea of him dispensing healing, but i'm not quite sure it is the better option. what do you think?

p.s. does he count as a lvl 4 character (if he has only 1 class level) or a lvl 10 for the 6d8 hit dices given from the werebear?

[ZamielVanWeber]

10. Those animal HD count.

I would avoid caster classes; the loss of levels due to lycanthrope seriously hurts. IF you want to heal consider crusader instead. I believe that your animal HD should count for boosting your initiator level.

[frogglesmash]

I'm pretty sure that without any class levels he'd have an ECL of 13 even before he took any class levels (10 from animal HD and +3 LA from being a natural lycanthrope).

[Honest Tiefling]

Perhaps off topic, but have you taken a look at Bear Warrior? Some bear shape changing antics, but without the ECL.

[nedz]

From here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm#werebear): I count 6 RHD (Racial Hit Dice) and +3 LA. The other HD is human Warrior 1.

That's ECL 10 with 1 class level.

It's generally worth avoiding large amounts of RHD and LA since the character will be stuck, and you can't play him from level 1 — unless you use Savage Progressions (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031114a). This converts the LA into 3 template levels (these have no HD) and map out the 6 bear RHD. You can use this to create a lesser version of the Were-Bear with fewer RHD and lower LA. Your character can take these RHD and Template levels later if you want, though class levels are usually better.

[Skorni]

bear warrior doesn't attire as much as the werebear does. savage progressions seems a good idea in the early game, but does the character take some bab or save from the three levels of lycanthrope?

[HolyCouncilMagi]

I recommend using the Pathfinder rules for abnormal races; figure out what the CR would be for the character with no class levels, and treat that as ECL. Then add class levels normally, but get an additional class level every three levels since the RHD become more and more worthless as you accrue levels.

EDIT: Specifically, you keep gaining extra levels up to half the CR, not just indefinitely.

[Thurbane]

The Consolidated Lycanthropy Guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4398.0) is a good place for advise on running them as PCs.

Badger (1HD); or Black Bear, Boar, Dire Badger or Wolverine (3HD) might be better choices in regards to RHD.

[ZamielVanWeber]

bear warrior doesn't attire as much as the werebear does. savage progressions seems a good idea in the early game, but does the character take some bab or save from the three levels of lycanthrope?

You wouldn't get them anyways since they are LA. Savage Progression lets you take LA in bite sized bits instead of a lump sum (amongst others things).
A savage progression bear lycanthrope 9/fighter 1 and a bear lycanthrope fighter 1 are identical.

[nedz]

The thing about Savage Progressions are that you can usually delay the Racial HD and Racial levels (LA equivalent) for as long as you like, possibly indefinitely. So you can have several class levels with minimal LA and RHD.

[SecretlyaFish]

I think its a pretty broken system, the whole ECL thing. HD+LA never makes a balanced character, ever. Count the HD sure, but I certainly wouldn't put you on par with a 10th level character. A 10th level character with all its assorted wealth, etc, would mop the floor with you. It isn't fair, at all.

What I would suggest is take the HitDie, make that your ECL, then add another hit die for the class. ECL level 7. I think that is fair. By 7th level, most parties have the means to kill you, likewise so do enemies.

The HD+LA doesn't work. Carefully go through each ability the Lycan has, and determine if its really that powerful an ability, and start modifying its LA. A werebear is much more powerful for example, than a werewolf. Yet they both make you add a +3 LA, on top of their HD. Pretty stupid.

[Skorni]

it seems that black bear is a better animal, so it's already 3 RHD less than the brown for a ECL of 7, although the bonuses are way fewer. other suggestions?

[Urpriest]

it seems that black bear is a better animal, so it's already 3 RHD less than the brown for a ECL of 7, although the bonuses are way fewer. other suggestions?

Could you explain further why you don't want to play a Bear Warrior or the like? You said that it doesn't attire as much, but you're going to have trouble wearing clothing in hybrid form anyway, and even a Bear Warrior's animal form has most of the standard item slots.

[Skorni]

i don't like it because i have to take levels in a class that gives me rage or frenzy abilities and the bear form is only a limited amount of times per day instead of when i want as the werebear, it has less benefits than the lycanthrope, he has no low light vision nor damage reduction.

also it doesn't really fit with the type of character i had in mind. i thought of this dwarf that travels the land to protect the weak using this power, aka lycanthropy, that he thinks is a gift granted to him by the gods so that he can be better at his job.

[Urpriest]

i don't like it because i have to take levels in a class that gives me rage or frenzy abilities and the bear form is only a limited amount of times per day instead of when i want as the werebear, it has less benefits than the lycanthrope, he has no low light vision nor damage reduction.

also it doesn't really fit with the type of character i had in mind. i thought of this dwarf that travels the land to protect the weak using this power, aka lycanthropy, that he thinks is a gift granted to him by the gods so that he can be better at his job.

Hmm.

There are, of course, ways to do this with a character who can Wild Shape, including some classes that can give you the ability and still be Lawful Good. Trouble is, you'd be able to turn into things that aren't bears, and I don't know if you'd be interested in that.

If you're just ok with any old werebear, then yeah, black bear gives you the most bang for your buck.

If you want to heal, you probably shouldn't do it with a casting class, you'll be missing too many levels. The Crusader class from Tome of Battle can pick up some healing abilities, as does the Hellreaver prestige class from Fiendish Codex II. However, both mostly heal in combat. If you're more interested in wandering into peaceful villages and healing people then those are less useful. I think Incarnum might have some useful methods, but someone with more experience using it should back me up on that.

[Segev]

Ardent + Practiced Manifester can get you up to ML 5, including ability to learn higher-level powers, when combined with your RHD.

So a brown bear lycanthrope dwarf with 1 level of Ardent would be ECL 10, have ML 5, and be able to know up to 3rd level powers.

A black bear lycanthrope dwarf with 1 level of Ardent would be ECL 7, have ML 4, and be able to know up to 2nd level powers. It can afford up to one more non-Ardent level and still gain +1 Ardent ML, too.

The Life Mantle has some healing abilities in it, which is why Ardent might be attractive.


A dwarf druid could have a bear animal companion and eventually wild shape into a bear, as well as choose spells which give him all the lycanthrope-granted powers you like.


If you want to play straight werebear, you can look at Warshaper from Complete Warrior; it's a pretty potent class and it's possible (I don't have it in front of me so I can't check) that you can meet the prereqs from your RHD (and shapeshifting ability) alone.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You just need +4 base attack and the shapeshifting to qualify for warshaper, so that's totally possible.

[Skorni]

warshaper seems pretty awesome, so i think maybe i'll go with that. i don't know exactly the ardent class etc so i'll go and look about that to see if it interesting enough.

[Flickerdart]

All ardent does is let you take higher-level powers than normal when you take levels in it. You would not gain anything else (notably, PP) from it, nor would you gain anything from levels gained after your last ardent level. So a character with 6 animal HD and +3 LA would have to have a) started with a level of ardent (to qualify for Practical Manifester), and b) taken a level of ardent as his 11th level (or some earlier level if using savage progression).

[Segev]

All ardent does is let you take higher-level powers than normal when you take levels in it. You would not gain anything else (notably, PP) from it, nor would you gain anything from levels gained after your last ardent level. So a character with 6 animal HD and +3 LA would have to have a) started with a level of ardent (to qualify for Practical Manifester), and b) taken a level of ardent as his 11th level (or some earlier level if using savage progression).

Practiced Manifester doesn't have an "only at first level" requirement. --though you're right about needing SOMETHING as your first level, pre-RHD, given the rules for lycanthropy. Hrm.

[torrasque666]

Practiced Manifester doesn't have an "only at first level" requirement. --though you're right about needing SOMETHING as your first level, pre-RHD, given the rules for lycanthropy. Hrm.
It was mostly because Ardent is a psionic class and thus gives you access to [Psionic] feats. Though to be fair, all you need to take it is some power points.

[Flickerdart]

Practiced Manifester doesn't have an "only at first level" requirement. --though you're right about needing SOMETHING as your first level, pre-RHD, given the rules for lycanthropy. Hrm.
Practiced Manifester requires you to pick a psionic class you have.

[Thurbane]

Practiced Manifester requires you to pick a psionic class you have.

That's weird: Practiced Spellcaster only specifies that you pick one spellcasting class - it does not require that you already levels in it...

I stand corrected - just re-read it. Good to know.

[atemu1234]

That's weird: Practiced Spellcaster only specifies that you pick one spellcasting class - it does not require that you already have ranks in it...

I stand corrected - just re-read it. Good to know.

Gotta love it when that happens.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would personally go about this the following way.

Quasi-lycanthrope (LA 1 template for DR 10-silver and minor shapeshift) dwarf (Full bab base class X) 4 / warshaper 4 / good PRC 1 (or 2 with LA buyoff).

OR

Quasi-Lycanthrope Dwarf Cleric 7 / Warshaper 3.

The reason you may want to go the cleric route is so you can cast the wonderful buff divine power. It grants full bab and a nice bonus to strength that will stack with your warshaper +4 to give you a smooth +10 to your strength. You are also two cleric level away (finish off warshaper 4 first, the 5th level is useless for you) from having Righteous Might for the nice boost to strength and size that stacks with everything else you got going on. Cleric spells can fake shapeshifting quite a bit. Take the spontaneous domain acf with the strength domain and you can get large easily with enlarge person cast from your 1st level spell slots.

Cleric spells grant a wide variety of "shifts" that you can pull out and buff yourself before growing claws and going to town. With DR10/silver, fast healing, immunity to crits and sneak attacks, and +6 con, and good fort and willsaves you are good to go for defenses, meaning you can armor up with fullplate and tank.

An argument can be made for starting with cleric 6 / warshaper 4, but that is purely a matter of favoring the fast healing 2 over the ability to cast divine power 1-2 times per day (up to 3 if you take the war domain as your second domain and keep your wis at 18+ after items).