Melee RHD

[torrasque666]

How much RHD is too much RHD on a melee type? I'm trying to make a Tauric character and am curious as to some good Base Creatures.

[Blackhawk748]

How much RHD is too much RHD on a melee type? I'm trying to make a Tauric character and am curious as to some good Base Creatures.

When you dont get +16 by level 20. RHD hurt less on melees (obviously) but i would recommend snagging the first level of the Half Fiend Racial class, which would turn all of those RHD into Outsider ones, so Full BaB

[heavyfuel]

"How much" depends on the RHD in question. Dragon HD is probably better than fighter levels for example.

Taurics don't have much going for them though. I'd say up to 4 if you're low op (which I assume it is, since you're playing a class with RHD in the first place)

[torrasque666]

When you dont get +16 by level 20. RHD hurt less on melees (obviously) but i would recommend snagging the first level of the Half Fiend Racial class, which would turn all of those RHD into Outsider ones, so Full BaB
Taurics are Monstrous Humanoids, so they already get full BAB for their RHD, so I don't need to use what I consider a stupid attempt to rebalance a horrible template.

[OldTrees1]

Depends on your optimization level.

My table is balanced at 1+RHD+2*LA significant abilities per race. (Think of it as a Fighter without dead levels and worthy options to choose each level)

However I expect your table's optimization level is higher since you are asking this forum(whose average optimization level is higher than my table's).

[Twurps]

Lets compare to a 'standard no RHD melee' and what they get (assuming a lower op game where normal melee stands chance):
-Melee needs full-BAB(ish). If your RHD have that, this doesn't imply any maximum.
-Class abilities, every other level(? true clearly for fighter, close enough for TOB classes): RHD are worth it if they deal out goodies at the same rate. After that. not so much.

So no theoretical maximum as long as the goodies keep coming. In practice: somewhere between 4 and 8?

[Urpriest]

It really depends. A better way of thinking about it is in terms of tradeoffs: if you took a race with fewer RHD and took more PC levels, would your character end up stronger, or weaker?

[torrasque666]

So seeing as how the consensus seems to be that while not as bad on a melee type, RHD still suck, so I should probably keep it somewhere under 6 or so, what would be some good creatures to use as a base? Just needs to be either Animal, Magical Beast, or Vermin, with 4+ legs.

[Story]

It also depends a lot on what kind of melee build you have in mind. RHD are competitive with Fighter levels because Fighter is so lackluster. If you're talking about Warblade or Totemist or PsyWar or similar, RHD is much less attractive.

[OldTrees1]

Lets compare to a 'standard no RHD melee' and what they get (assuming a lower op game where normal melee stands chance):
-Melee needs full-BAB(ish). If your RHD have that, this doesn't imply any maximum.
-Class abilities, every other level(? true clearly for fighter, close enough for TOB classes): RHD are worth it if they deal out goodies at the same rate. After that. not so much.

So no theoretical maximum as long as the goodies keep coming. In practice: somewhere between 4 and 8?

As system mastery increases and multiclassing/prestige classes are recognized, standard non RHD melee approaches class abilities every level.



So RHD is ok, provided you get enough significant abilities in return. If 6 levels of fighter can give 4 significant abilities and 2 minor abilities, then you would want at least that from 6 RHD. However I doubt you will find something with more than 3 significant abilities so I would aim at 3-4RHD.

[bekeleven]

Obligatory Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale: 3 Monstrous Humanoid RHD and +0 LA for large size, +8 STR, +4 Dex, +4 Con, +4 Wis, 9 Natural armor, 1D3 Tail Slap, speed 30/Swim 30, Hold breath, and Low-light vision, Darkvision 60, and blindsight 120.

[Urpriest]

Obligatory Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale: 3 Monstrous Humanoid RHD and +0 LA for large size, +8 STR, +4 Dex, +4 Con, +4 Wis, 9 Natural armor, 1D3 Tail Slap, speed 30/Swim 30, Hold breath, and Low-light vision, Darkvision 60, and blindsight 120.

Nice, but the OP is looking for a base for Tauric. :smallwink:

[bekeleven]

Nice, but the OP is looking for a base for Tauric. :smallwink:

Most of my experience with tauric has been template-stacking.

Which can justify nearly any number of HD, given what you'll get out of it...

[danzibr]

When you dont get +16 by level 20. RHD hurt less on melees (obviously) but i would recommend snagging the first level of the Half Fiend Racial class, which would turn all of those RHD into Outsider ones, so Full BaB
You really don't need that. The +16, that is. Take a look at pure Totemist. Or in general if you make a few high-damage attacks or have a bung load of natural weapons.

Anthropomorphic (wait for it, not Baleen Whale) Giant Octopus gives 7 natural weapons (and some other stuff) for 2 RHD.

[Zilzmaer]

So seeing as how the consensus seems to be that while not as bad on a melee type, RHD still suck, so I should probably keep it somewhere under 6 or so, what would be some good creatures to use as a base? Just needs to be either Animal, Magical Beast, or Vermin, with 4+ legs.

As a reminder, because people I know regularly forget, even if you might not:


Hit Dice: Add the base humanoid's and base creature's Hit Dice to get the tauric creature's Hit Dice, each of which changes to a d8. A humanoid that normally has a class instead of 1 Hit Die counts as a 1 HD creature.

So your base humanoid contributes to the RHD, too. Keep this in mind when picking a base creature.

EDIT: Also, something I'd never noticed before, your base saves don't use your full RHD.


Base Saves: For each saving throw, use the base save bonus for either the base creature or the base humanoid, whichever is higher.

So I would advise against taking more than one HD from your base humanoid.

[torrasque666]

As a reminder, because people I know regularly forget, even if you might not:



So your base humanoid contributes to the RHD, too. Keep this in mind when picking a base creature.

EDIT: Also, something I'd never noticed before, your base saves don't use your full RHD.



So I would advise against taking more than one HD from your base humanoid.

Oh yeah, I was just gonna use a human as the base anyway. Hard to get something that I'd value more than a feat without also taking LA. And mostly, what I'd value is racial stat modifiers of 6 or more. Sooooo not really gonna happen for this base. Plus, human is nice and simple.