Replacing and Adding the same ability score on the same check, possible?

[Yanisa]

Heya,

I starting a thread here to avoid this endless discussion elsewhere, there are some posts about it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?424405-Just-the-FAQ-s-Maam-%28PF-recent-FAQ-rulings%29). For newcomers, I once made an insane high initiative based character (See my signature) and it used a dubious technique to gain charisma on your initiative twice.
Noble Scion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/noble-scion) + First in Battle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/sword-of-valor#TOC-First-Into-Battle-Su-)

Lunar Oracle Revelation Prophetic Armor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracle-mysteries/lunar-mystery) + Divine Protection (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/divine-protection) (Or the famous Paladin Divine Grace (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin#TOC-Divine-Grace-Su-).) -> For charisma twice on reflex saves.

Intimidating Prowess (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/intimidating-prowess-combat---final) + Unchained Intimidating Glare (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/barbarian-unchained#TOC-Rage-Powers) -> For strength twice on intimidate.

Third party: Mind Over Metal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/student-of-war#TOC-Mind-Over-Metal-Ex-) + Dervish Defender (Warder Archetype) Two-Weapon Defense (Ex) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder/warder-archetypes/dervish-defender-warder-archetype#TOC-Two-Weapon-Defense-Ex-) -> For intelligence twice on AC.

Since then Paizo has released a FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9sgk) trying to stop this stuff. The long and short of is that "dexterity" and "charisma" are modifiers in same vein as "moral" and "luck" and thus you cannot get that bonus twice.

However, the exact nature is of my combo is not addressed. Because

since one is "add a bonus equal to X to roll Y" and another is "Use X in place of Z for roll Y" they'll stack. (Yeah I am just blatantly using Torrasque666 line because he is neatly summing it up. He said in a different context though.)

At the time initiative was still a dexterity check, even though the main ability score get changed to charisma. Paizo has also addressed that issue (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9tga) very recently, hence this whole ordeal because now this is a true charisma check.



But let's take a step back, to initiative (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Initiative) before feats and class abilities.

Initiative Checks

At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check. Each character applies his or her Dexterity modifier to the roll, as well as other modifiers from feats, spells, and other effects. Characters act in order, counting down from the highest result to the lowest. In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions).

If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first). If there is still a tie, the tied characters should roll to determine which one of them goes before the other.
Emphasis mine

That means when you roll an initiative check, you add your dexterity modifier on that roll. So with now two FAQ's if you use Noble Scion, that dexterity check changes into charisma check. So if you roll initiative, you add your charisma modifier to that roll. If you then add First in Battle, you are adding your charisma modifier twice to the same d20. Thus they do not stack.

Before the second FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9tga) you could say that the first set of charisma, Noble Scion, was technically still dexterity check for the purpose of the initiative roll and thus you weren't adding charisma twice. That is when you get the whole one replaces and the other adds argument, but that no longer seems the case here. The combo seems a bit more definitive dead now, now that Noble Scion is a confirmed charisma check.

Still this is a very vague issue that rarely happens, and even with that second FAQ I still see both sides of the argument. Paizo isn't dealing with this very obscure issue so we still lack a definitive answer. Still seeing the spirit of what Paizo is trying, I doubt Paizo will ever rule in favor of this technique. Still a lot of people seem to think it should work, even with all the FAQ's paizo released. So I am curious to your opinions and your vision.

[MukkTB]

Well it seems that the intent was to stop this sort of thing. I don't know what to say about it. It sucks when they just crush combos, but I do enjoy knowing that balance stuff is somewhat under control.

[Psyren]

I'm not sure where the confusion is coming from as the second FAQ doesn't interfere with the first one in any way that I can see. First Into Battle says you get to add your Cha mod to your initiative , meaning you would get [Cha + Dex] instead of just Dex as normal; per the second FAQ, Initiative would stay a Dexterity check. Noble Scion (Scion of War) however says that Initiative uses Cha now instead, which per the second FAQ makes it a Charisma check. But that doesn't override the first FAQ which says you can still only get one instance of "add your Charisma bonus to {thing.}"

In other words, the first FAQ is the only one that really matters here and it is the one preventing any "double-dipping" from happening. Basically it's saying you're better off just using First into Battle by itself (since then you at least get Cha + Dex) than you would be adding in Noble Scion (which removes Dex from that equation.)

Basically the purpose of the second FAQ is to spell out that using things like Noble Scion that swap out one score for another on a specific check, cause any items etc you have that care about the old score to not work anymore, and any items etc you have that care about the new score to start working on that check. It's not to enable any kind of modifier stacking.

[Yanisa]

The first FAQ alone never prevented the "replace and add" combo. It's pretty clear that was the intention, but they never wrote it down. Without the second FAQ your initiative stays a Dexterity check, you might be using your Charisma instead, but it's is a Dexterity check. You then get in the situation you Roll a d20, add dex but that is replaces by cha, then add cha. In a sense you are not adding cha twice.

However the second FAQ does insure that Noble Scion makes your initiative a Charisma check. And in a charisma check you are adding your charisma to the dice. Then First in Battle means you are adding charisma again. Which would mean the combo is dead.

Or is it? When you roll an ability score check you add your ability score modifier. In contrast, First in Battle adds "a bonus to the check equal to his Charisma bonus". Those are in phrasing two different numbers, one number is your charisma modifier, the other is a number equal to your charisma modifiers, but is not your charisma modifier. Because the first FAQ only deals with the second kind, we don't know what happens when those two different phrased bonuses meet each other.

Paizo is really good in not giving a clear answer on my issue. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

I think it's clear and that you're overthinking it, personally. Whether the 2nd FAQ existed or not, Noble Scion would have had you replacing Dex with Cha. All that changed is that now, it's considered
"a Charisma check, therefore you add Charisma to it," where before it was "A 'Dexterity check' to which you add Charisma instead of Dexterity."

The thing is that, either way, you're using Charisma to modify it once already - and thus the 1st FAQ keeps you from adding it again (whether via First Into Battle, or any similar ability.) Make sense?

[Yanisa]

I think it's clear and that you're overthinking it, personally. Whether the 2nd FAQ existed or not, Noble Scion would have had you replacing Dex with Cha. All that changed is that now, it's considered
"a Charisma check, therefore you add Charisma to it," where before it was "A 'Dexterity check' to which you add Charisma instead of Dexterity."

The thing is that, either way, you're using Charisma to modify it once already - and thus the 1st FAQ keeps you from adding it again (whether via First Into Battle, or any similar ability.) Make sense?

But now you are just phrasing things differently then how Paizo has written it. I was trying to make a literal word-by-word RAW argument and yeah that is overthinking it (it's my job to overthink things). We all know that Paizo doesn't want this combo to work.

In essence nothing in the feat Noble Scion says you add charisma. And nothing in the first FAQ talks about adjusting, they only talk about adding.

It's when that adjusting leads to initiative becoming a charisma check that we can finally talk about adding charisma twice on a single roll and even then it's not the exact way it is described in the FAQ.

[Psyren]

In essence nothing in the feat Noble Scion says you add charisma.

This leads me to ask (and I do so with the utmost respect) that if you truly believe this, how then do you expect checks of any kind to work, least of all initiative itself?

Initiative is roll d20 and add [Dex] bonus. Noble Scion replaces that [Dex] with [Cha], but you're still adding the bonus. Noble Scion does not have to say it, because the very Initiative rules you linked in the OP explain that - all Noble Scion (Scion of War) says is "take those rules, and swap Dex for Cha." Done and done.

[MukkTB]

It feels like sometimes when we try to determine RAW, we end up facing issues with regard to what language means exactly. We hit up against things that would crash a computer program trying to parse them. Bugs in the RAW. Other times there is a question about how the system should respond to an ambiguity.

Its pretty frustrating.