got away from my core concept.

[GoblinGilmartin]

So, for the longest time, I've been building up and tearing down my homebrew setting of Rog-Alev. I call it Goblands because the original concept was "what if goblins civilized and became a lawful power in the world". As I've expanded the world, I realize I've left the goblins behind. I've set them up as a lawful society strong in trade and industry, ruled by a group nicknamed the Goblords, but I have no idea what daily life is like for them, besides being "roughly the same as anyone else in a fantasy society." I'm not sure where to start.

The only thing I have for them in "current" politics is being the possible turning point in a war between dwarves and men.

[Yora]

Do you have a question?

[GoblinGilmartin]

Do you have a question?

I guess "I'm not sure where to start" is what I was getting at. All I have about the goblins is "They're really good at trade and industry", but I'm not sure what that translates into or what a goblin does with his life. To me, it seems like in modern D&D, any race capable of being played ends up...blander than if they were NPC only. Like...dwarves for example. They've traditionally kept their distance from magic, but in most modern games, Dwarven Wizards are a dime a dozen, because why not?

I want to make my goblins (and the other races in my setting) not just another fantasy race, but I'm not sure how to do that.

I'm sorry if my thoughts aren't well organized, I'm having trouble following them a little myself.

[Yora]

Well, where do you want to go with the setting? I don't know anything about it, so any idea would be completely generic and not really in response to your specific needs.

[the_david]

Well, I'd normally say that you could consider goblins to be secondclass citizens. In a city that would be mostly populated with humans, they would do menial labor. They'd be as likely to be dungsweepers as well as they could be part of the thieves guild. Honestly though, I don't think I can do much with just goblins.
If you'd add hobgoblins though, you'd have a race of militaristic humanoids. Now imagine a 2 tiered caste system where the militaristic hobgoblins are the military caste, and the goblins are the second class citizens that provide the hobgoblins with everything they need from food to weapons.

How's that for a start?

Edit: And just for the record, Dwarves have traditionally been mages since the eddas. Andvari could change himself into a fish, otr could become an otter and Fafnir turned himself into a dragon so he could protect his treasure. Eitr and Brokr made several magic items such as Thor's hammer Mjolnir, the golden ring Draupnir and Gullinbursti the golden boar. The sons of Ivaldi made Sif's golden hair, the foldable ship Skidbladnir and Gungnir the spear of Odin. Fjalar en Galar made the mead of poetry out of the blood of a god.

[Thrawn4]

I guess "I'm not sure where to start" is what I was getting at.

To me, it seems like in modern D&D, any race capable of being played ends up...blander than if they were NPC only.
I want to make my goblins (and the other races in my setting) not just another fantasy race, but I'm not sure how to do that.


For a good start, take the ideas you have work with them. Seems like you are currently interested in goblins, so let's get started.
It is... somewhat true that a NPC race offers more potential storywise. Take dragons or arch-demons for example: They are huge and add a certain flavour to your setting, but they usually don't fit in with a typical adventurer party. On the other hand, player races can be done well, so it's not a huge issue. It's just that something that is unknown to players is also more mysterious. Nobody knows what the immortal magical tribe in the woods is up to (exciting), but everybody knows the modifiers for elves (somewhat common).

That said, if you want to expand the goblin culture, I would like to introduce you to the iceberg model
http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.homeofbob.com%2Flit erature%2Fesl%2FicebergCulture.gif&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.homeofbob.com%2Fliterat ure%2Fesl%2FicebergModelCulture.html&h=576&w=792&tbnid=y1e3GHUzSENAPM%3A&zoom=1&docid=Hra9s5B5Rup0lM&ei=HGqSVfa2OsulsgG2x7f4Ag&tbm=isch&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=396&page=1&start=0&ndsp=17&ved=0CDMQrQMwBg

[Everyl]

You can also try to split the difference between the "all races are basically humans" and the "non-human races are inherently and deeply alien" models. Come up with one or two biological differences for goblins to have, and extrapolate what kinds of effects those might have on an otherwise human-like society. I've used this for some races in my own setting, and I think it helps a lot with making other races feel different, but still relatable to the players.

Examples:
Gnolls are strict carnivores, unable to digest grains and most "staple" crops. They cannot be supported by agriculture, making large gnoll cities difficult to establish. Many groups are nomadic hunters, but some also live as herders, fishers, or, where they coexist peacefully with other races, even as ranchers and dairymen. Because a gnoll's diet is very expensive compared to that of most commoners, poor gnolls are more likely than those of other races to turn to crime to survive in big cities, simply as a way to survive.

Elves have biological castes, determined by the environment their parents lived in during pregnancy. "Normal" player-character elves come from areas that are hot and sunny, dark elves come from cooler areas with less direct sunlight, aquatic elves are born in or very close to saltwater, and so forth. Elven societies can have social issues that are difficult for outsiders to understand, especially in "borderline" regions where multiple castes may be produced depending on the lifestyle of the parents. In one country, the dark elf caste is seen as more noble, as they don't have to work the fields during the day, but instead stay inside in cool, shady homes. In another, dark elves are only born of poor miner families and are treated as second-class citizens at best.

[Admiral Squish]

I'd think about what would cause goblins to come into existence in the first place, and what that would do to their culture.
What sorts of evolutionary pressures could turn a proto-goblinoid ancestor into three distinct subspecies? What would make goblins, in particular, small?
I've always liked the idea of goblins being a sort of sentient r-strategist species. They're a very prolific species, giving birth to litters of young at a time, and rapidly expanding into any area they can. This is a biological trait, but culturally, maybe the goblins put great emphasis on large families. When goblin expansion is checked by barriers, like settled lands that won't allow goblins to share space, or simply running out of land, things can go south very quickly. The goblins who would normally leave to establish new villages can't, and put ever-increasing strain on the infrastructure of the existing village. Soon the goblins are trying to feed three villages' worth of goblins on farms that were only designed to supply one. This leads to starvation and overcrowding, which leads to filthy living conditions, which leads to disease. Goblins swiftly become desperately, agonizingly poor. And when your twelve children are crying because there's no food... desperation can drive even the most moral souls to extremes. It's easy to stir such communities into violence, and they often turn their anger on whatever is keeping their expansion in check. They may try to drive off or kill those settlements in their way, or, if that is impossible, they may resort to raiding or stealing enough food or money to keep themselves supplied.

[unglitteringold]

I guess "I'm not sure where to start" is what I was getting at.... but I'm not sure what that translates into or what a goblin does with his life....
I want to make my goblins (and the other races in my setting) not just another fantasy race, but I'm not sure how to do that.

I think you have identified the start for yourself - What does a goblin do with his life?
Maybe think about the different levels of goblin society, how they interact with their environment and how it affects them. For example, why are they industrious? Do they live in a place with scarce resources? What kind of education system do they have? Do they have currency? Are there rich and poor goblins? How do they feel about each other? Are there different lineages within the goblin community? How do the goblins feel about other races and do those feelings vary based on some of the differences you've determined?

I guess my response boils down to - ask more questions, pick answers, and then ask "why?"

[aspekt]

My first question would be how they became lawful and civilized. Was their some kind of mass conversion to the Mechanos gods of order and law? Or are they simply old enough as a civilization to have arrived at lawful Ness being generally beneficial? Perhaps they are the first race, or were the first race twinned along with the dwarves. Ever since they have been sibling rivals of a sort.

And does being a civilized goblin really look like a civilized dwarf? After all humans and elves in fantasy world's typically live quite differently.

But ya, questions are always the best way to go.