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View Full Version : Pathfinder Early Monkday has arrived - Monk/Ninja or Ninja?



Spore
2015-06-28, 06:08 AM
Greetings playground,

I am dabbling in theoretical (but playable) character optimization currently and I want to try and make a Pandaren (homebrew race, not brewed yet) Martial Artist with Ninja Tricks.

And I am asking myself whether Monk 4/Ninja x (in this case 3) or Ninja 7 is more powerful. Neither build has to (or should) break the ceiling of T3 but sitting comfortably in T3 would be nice. Goal should be underworld agent (social skills, escape mechanisms, so acrobatics, escape artist etc. would also be nice) and secondary scout (stealth is important, perception less so) which means I have to have any and all skill points I can muster up.

Combat is really not important and the character should suit the following background and running joke (Any barkeep has at least 4 levels in a given PC class):

Tao fled from Nihon where the Syndicate rules every smaller village and does slave trafficking pretty openly. After the aged Panda tried to save several small children from slave labor and being indoctrinated as the Syndicate's assassins he had to flee to another continent. He opened a restaurant as his cover identity in the new homeland and worked there for a few years until a stranger came by from his homelands.

The stranger was in search for his kidnapped daughter. Asian-looking tiefling, human daughter, sought after by the Syndicate's right hand, Masaru. The Panda undertook some investigations after learning that the girl was safe but the Ronin escaped mortally wounded but bent on revenge. After months of investigation he learned that the girl is safe in the headquarters of a mercenary band but the Ronin is still on the look for her. He can't return without her and he is gathering allies in this strange and foreign land. Namely the ambassador of Nihon who has enough immunities to enter the the headquarters and get the girl.

Tao has to act quickly and inform them unless he wants to see another innocent girl in the claws of the Syndicate. Said Tiefling is my other character and his daughter is the sole survivor of his family. This would be the tie-in.

Considering his role as investigator and his tendency to avoid combat or gain another easier entrance (but the given nature of Pathfinder of often requiring combat because some enemies just have insane lockdown) which classes would you feel are necessary. Childhood and class specific background are intentionally left blank. They will be inserted as soon as I decide on a class.



+2 Dex, +2 Con
20ft movement, 15ft climb speed, 30ft quadrupedal movement
lowlight vision
+8 on climb
+2 nat AC
2 claw attack (d8 I guess)
1 bite attack (d6 i guess)
proficient with pan spear (1d8/x3) and shaktani sword (1w10/19|x2)

and I guess ECL +1.

Can you rewrite this to suit Pathfinder without ECL?



"Panda" Ninja [Monk] 7

NG Medium humanoid ("Panda")

Init +4; Senses Perception +11

Defense

AC 17, touch 14, flat-footed 13 (+3 armor, +4 Dex)

hp 49 (7d8+14)

Fort +4, Ref +10, Will +2

Defensive Abilities evasion, no trace +2, uncanny dodge

Offense

Speed 30 ft.

Melee: +1 wakizashi +10 (1d6+2/18–20), unarmed +9 (1d8+1/20)

Ranged mwk shuriken +10 (1d4+1/19–20)

Special Attacks sneak attack +4d6, sap master (8d6+8 sneak attack nonlethal)

Tactics

Before combat Tao usually scouts the location and tries to get the drop in his enemies. He uses Stealth to get close to his targets and knocks them out cold.

During Combat Tao uses Vanishing Trick to gain the upper hand. He tries to not kill his enemies but rather incapacitate them. Depending on his mission or quest lethal force is a necessary evil but frowned upon heavily.

Statistics

Str 12, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14

Base Atk +5; CMB +7; CMD 22

Feats: Sap Adept, Sap Master, Weapon Finesse

Skills Acrobatics +16, Appraise +4, Bluff +14, Climb +8, Diplomacy +10, Intimidate +7, Knowledge (local) +7, Knowledge (nobility) +7, Linguistics +4, Perception +11, Sense Motive +7, Stealth +16, Swim +5

Languages Common, Arcadia, Nihon (we get an extra language for home countries)

SQ ninja tricks (vanishing trick, unarmed combat training, shadow clones), no trace +2, light ste

Combat Gear: +1 wakizashi, 5 mwk shuriken, +1 leather armor (for now)

Any thoughts?

Extra Anchovies
2015-06-28, 10:29 AM
How about Ninja VMC Monk? It's one of the genuinely good combinations (unarmed damage and a ton of extra ki). Sure, you give up a bunch of feats, but you still have room for the full TWF chain and a few other side feats (e.g. Improved Initiative and such).

Skill-wise, you'll probably want Bluff/Diplo/Sense Motive for social skills and Acrobatics/Stealth/Perception for infiltration, but anything else is optional (I recommend UMD).

Spore
2015-06-28, 11:35 AM
Sounds good but I am not sure how the ki pools interact.

Hazrond
2015-06-28, 11:41 AM
Sounds good but I am not sure how the ki pools interact.
As far as I know when you have multiple Ki/Grit/Panache/Luck Pools of the same type you just add them together :smallsmile:

Extra Anchovies
2015-06-28, 12:02 PM
Sounds good but I am not sure how the ki pools interact.

They stack fully (you even get both Wis and Cha to the pool, since the wis-based ki isn't granted by class levels). It's what makes Ninja [Monk] good.

grarrrg
2015-06-28, 12:10 PM
As far as I know when you have multiple Ki/Grit/Panache/Luck Pools of the same type you just add them together :smallsmile:

Close.
Only Grit/Panache/Luck are interchangeable like that. Ki is its own separate thing.


The 2 best (only) rules examples are from the Ninja (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/ninja#TOC-Ki-Pool-Su-):
"If the ninja possesses levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool, ninja levels stack with the levels of that class to determine the total number of ki points in the combined pool, but only one ability score modifier is added to the total. The choice of which score to use is made when the second class ability is gained, and once made, the choice is set. The ninja can now use ki points from this pool to power the abilities of every class she possesses that grants a ki pool."

So all class levels count, but you only get Ability Score once.

And the Rogue Ki Pool Talent (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/ki-pool-exhttp://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/ki-pool-ex):
"If she already has a ki pool, or gains a ki pool later, she gains half her Wisdom bonus (minimum 1) as bonus ki points to her ki pool. "

Which gives some bonus points tied to an ability score.


VMC is confusing because it's like having levels in a class, but you don't actually count as levels in that class.


They stack fully (you even get both Wis and Cha to the pool, since the wis-based ki isn't granted by class levels). It's what makes Ninja [Monk] good.

VMC-Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement#TOC-Core-Classes) does NOT grant a WIS bonus, just "1/2 character level".

Extra Anchovies
2015-06-28, 12:38 PM
VMC-Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement#TOC-Core-Classes) does NOT grant a WIS bonus, just "1/2 character level".

Thanks for catching that. I even looked up the VMC ki pool and managed to miss that somehow >.>

Kurald Galain
2015-06-28, 01:56 PM
Instead of monk, try dipping cleric.

Here's why: a focus crystal lets you convert channel energy into ki points. Plus, a variety of domains give nice bonuses, and there's an archetype that makes you immune to surprise at level 1.

Mato
2015-06-28, 02:08 PM
Are you allowed D&D's supplements? If so, dark moon disciple monk 7 is the way to go.

Otherwise, have you looked at the new unchained classes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes) yet?

Psyren
2015-06-28, 08:56 PM
I also suggest Ninja + VMC Monk, but keep in mind that you will lose all the VMC Monk features if you wear any armor. Which is actually fine, as you can do just fine without the VMC monk features until later, by which point you can afford bracers of armor or a wand of mage armor or something.

Spore
2015-06-29, 07:41 AM
Well, I guess I can't go better than VMC Ninja [Monk].

Spore
2015-06-30, 09:36 AM
Build is up now.