Custom mechanic for enduring torture/revealing information! [Archive]

BalkanDS

2015-06-28, 12:32 PM

Sometimes regardless of all the hints, breaks and other forms of help you try to get your PCs they **** up so royally that you can't possibly save them from their own stupidity. In this case my PCs decided it was better to stand in the middle of the street and argue for what to do while a magical bomb was making worrying noises some 500 ft. from them instead of you know diving for cover, putting up a shield, etc. Instead of making everyone roll knew characters I had the PCs all reduced to 0 hp, knocked out and captured by their enemy.

The next session starts with them in a dungeon while being prepped for some torture. I was wondering if anyone had any insight or experience with building a mechanic around torture. Some way of measuring how close my PCs were to mentally/phyiscally breaking from the torture and revealing everything they know to the bad guys including but not limited to their social #, pet's name, secret fears, the nature of their mission, what their last meal was, etc. I will obviously give them a way to escape but it'd be fun to be really sadistic and see how far I can go with torture before they find a way out. So like I said anyway of rolling dice, checking charts, or measuring any way of how I can torture my PCs to reveal information that their characters know?

Naanomi

2015-06-28, 12:54 PM

It's probably some combination of insight, intimidation, and persuasion; though proficiency in 'torturer's tools' would be feasible as well... I made 'merchant tools' for scales and abacus and the like; this would be in the same vein.

Mechanically: choose intimidation or persuasion, maybe with advantage if you have good torture tools available. Prepare to roll insight to see false confessions. Check your alignment at the door as well :)

Lore bards make the best torturer's; expensive in the social skills and insult their opposed deception checks down

Elbeyon

2015-06-28, 01:12 PM

That is some magical bomb. A 500 ft. radius explosion that knocks out the characters automatically. Did it level a town? That's some magic that could tear apart nations.

I don't find torture entertaining. As a player I would be very board if the DM was expecting me to role play out being tortured for an extended amount of it. A scene or two at most would be more than enough. And, at no point would would I feel the way my character does. I'd suggest one of two things: Forget torture, the bad guys give them truth serum and magically compel the secrets out of them. That'd affect me as a player more than torture ever would. Or, do something that'll pisses off your players. Start hurting their character sheet. Cut of limbs. Remove tongues. Take an eye out. Destroy equipment. Curse them. Make the player want to spill some secrets.

Truth Serum (Ingested). A creature subjected to this poison must succeed on a DC 11 Constitution saving throw or become poisoned for 1 hour. The poisoned creature can't knowingly speak a lie, as if under the effect of a zone of truth spell.

Naanomi

2015-06-28, 01:14 PM

Charm and Suggestion and the like do make a lot of torture pretty unnecessary (except for fun or as punishment)

Once a Fool

2015-06-28, 01:33 PM

First, make sure your players actually want to play this out. If not, there's no way including it helps the game--and doing so will likely cause harm.

If they're down with it, though, I'd keep the mechanics narrative. Ask the players a series of questions. Would your character divulge this snippet of information if this happened? Every time the player says "no," that's one more bit of torture that got tried.

Make sure to periodically set up scenarios where the PCs can attempt to escape, so they have a reason to keep resisting, and so they actually have some meaningful choices along the way.

TheOOB

2015-06-28, 02:11 PM

Occam's Razor. Torture should just be an intimidate check, perhaps with advantage if effective methods are used.

That said, in reality, torture was never effective and is a terrible means to get the truth. The purpose of torture is to get confessions, not facts.

coredump

2015-06-28, 04:53 PM

Historically, torture works just fine in the right circumstance.

That said, I don't think it makes for a good game.
As DM figure out what info was divulged and what damage occurred, and have it all happen "off camera"

Battlebooze

2015-06-29, 03:49 AM

Torture by itself is iffy. A lot of the time, you will just end up making the victim confess to whatever he thinks you want to hear. If someone is really devoted to a cause, it might make them mad enough to take the information to the grave.

Besides, who needs torture in D&D? You've got Magic, both subtle and otherwise, that can be used. Anyone able to make a magic bomb like you describe should be able to get at least a couple of 5th level casters to do them some dirty work.

Bane: A first level spell that makes every other spell easier to sink with -1d4 to all saves. And it target's Charisma, so it's got that going for it as well.

Hex: This spell is an interrogators dream. No Save, one stat makes all of it's ability checks at disadvantage... Hit their INT and use Illusions. Hit their Charisma or Wisdom and start fast talking them. Hit all three stats and they will sing like a canary with the right scam.

Enhance Ability: The perfect spell to make Hex insanely powerful. You boost yourself and have someone else hex them.

Suggestion: Brute interrogation power. If you can't figure out how to use this, you might as well give up.

Charm: A bit brute force and risky, but it might be worth trying. Just remember they will know you charmed them when it goes away and will be pissed off.

Detect Thoughts: Have someone scanning their brain while you try everything else. This spell is obviously useful.

Phantasmal Force: If they won't talk to you, maybe they will talk to the phantasmal image of one of their friends...

Clairvoyance: Put a couple of the subjects together and listen to them spill everything.

Major Illusion: Let them see you murder and threaten their companions, minus any real death or mess. Perfect for intimidation. Or have the images of their friends turn on them...

Zone of Truth: Useful, but problematic. I'd use it, but always be aware the truth can be misleading...

These spells are level 3 and under, so they shouldn't be any big shakes for someone with serious resources.

DragonLordIT

2015-06-29, 05:39 AM

I would never play a torture "encounter" word by word, I think it would be impossible done by someone who is not a professional torturer. A roll of dices with intimidation is ok, you may just build something more complex than "success" vs "failure" adding thresholds, something like:

easy DC: few minor informations but that you tell to seem important
medium DC: something that really helps
hard DC: useful informations
very hard: the victim is singing!!!

You could also make them roll behind your screen to avoid obvious metagaming
They would try to get some bonuses to the roll using illusions etc or trying to give the victim some benefits if he talks ("we will leave you alive after the job" and things like this, then a legal character should fullfill the deal while chaotic ones may not)

And after that there are a lot of things to do with magic that Battlebooze explained very well.

Malifice

2015-06-29, 07:31 AM

Sounds like a con or wisdom save. Advantage for anyone who has a good RP reason to be particularly resistant.

Or just avoid it is better. Spell caster to detect truth or zone of truth or whatever.

If you do use the torture route, I suggest detailing the torture preparation in detail, demonstrating the danger (one of the other NPCs imprisoned in the cell with the PCs gets led away and tortured - explain in graphic detail his screams) and then setting the scene for one of the PCs getting led to the torture chamber.

At the last minute, present an opportunity for escape. Heighten the drama first and it could provide for a harrowing escape indeed.

Vogonjeltz

2015-06-29, 04:17 PM

I was wondering if anyone had any insight or experience with building a mechanic around torture. Some way of measuring how close my PCs were to mentally/phyiscally breaking from the torture and revealing everything they know to the bad guys including but not limited to their social #, pet's name, secret fears, the nature of their mission, what their last meal was, etc.

First off, I advise against this course of action.

That being said, sure there's a mechanic: Everytime the torturer hurts them, they say what they think the torturer wants to hear to make the pain stop. That would emulate actual torture quite well in that it's not about getting accurate information but about inflicting pain, and all statements made under pain of torture are instantly suspect.

After all, if they think you'll stop breaking their toes by admitting it, then they'll most certainly agree that they killed the archduke in the public square 3 hours before their own birth.

Assuming you'd dead set on seeing this through (I advise against it), just one more thing: I would avoid telling the players what they do or don't say. Simply outline what is happening and let them role-play it. If they choose to resist, they resist, but maybe they change their minds seeing what they might lose or the permanent harm they'll suffer, and maybe you give them an obvious escape mechanism and you can get back to the actual story instead of dwelling on horrors being inflicted on your heroes (I mean, sure it works for the Princess Bride, but still).

Naanomi

2015-06-29, 05:02 PM

KorvinStarmast

2015-06-30, 08:14 AM

Response to the OP.
Interesting railroad you are trying to run here.

What experience do you have in RL to draw from that involves:
interrogation under duress
torture
resistance to same.

I have been the beneficiary (victim) of some fine training along those lines. I suggest that you are probably in over your head.

If you don't have something to draw from, how are you equipped to make this a good game play experience IF, and only IF, your players are ALL interested in playing this out?

Aside: most of those roll / ability suggestions on intimidate etc are Player on NPC interaction. Player agency is something you are trying to boost in an RPG, not undermine.

Then there's this point of view:

"It's Saturday night, and the way we have fun is we pretend to be under someone's control and unable to get out, and they torture us for information we may or may not have."

I guess people find fun in a lot of different ways, but I ask you to consider just what it is your motives are here. You, the DM.

How about this for player interaction:

You say player missed a roll and must confess, player says "I don't tell him anyway" so you railroad him / her and say yes you did.

Right. Role playing at its finest. Agency at it finest.
Not.

Besides, who needs torture in D&D? You've got Magic, both subtle and otherwise, that can be used. Anyone able to make a magic bomb like you describe should be able to get at least a couple of 5th level casters to do them some dirty work.
As noted above, you've already made it irrelevant.

This approach you are considering is a poor way to punish your players for a less than brilliant tactical decision.

Set them a challenge: how do we get out of this mess we got ourselves into?

Naanomi

2015-06-30, 08:23 AM

Yeah narratively torture only serves a few purposes...
-show how evil the bad guys are when they use it
-show how desperate the good guys are that they consider it
-backstory elements to make a character more interesting (either as past torturers or having been tortured)
-something horrible to escape
-something kinky

None of these really care about if it works or not

Malifice

2015-06-30, 11:16 AM

I have been the beneficiary (victim) of some fine training along those lines. I suggest that you are probably in over your head.

RTI and E and E?

Name? Rank? Service Number? Name? Rank? Service Number? Name? Rank? Service Number? Name? Rank? Service Number? Name? Rank? Service Number? Name? Rank? Service Number? Name? Rank? Service Number? Name? Rank? Service Number? Name? Rank? Service Number? Name? Rank? Service Number? Name? Rank? Service Number? Name? Rank? Service Number..?

And so on.

Been there too my brother.

KorvinStarmast

2015-06-30, 01:09 PM

RTI and E and E?

Been there too my brother. SERE. (30+ years ago)
Good training, however difficult. A wake up call in many ways. (College friend's dad spent 6 yrs in Hanoi Hilton, his lessons were very eye opening).

Hopefully, our OP friend will find a variety of challenges for his party.

@naanomi: about "something kinky." Since that is a sphere with which I am not personally familiar, but I am aware that this is preferred by some people, I won't comment beyond the following: folding that into a TTRPG would require (for success) that all at the table are into exploring that.

Some folks might. I'll suggest that the mechanics of D&D might not be a best fit for that particular role playing scenario. (And if I'm wrong about that, so be it).

Naanomi

2015-06-30, 03:43 PM

I wouldn't recommend it either, but it is a narrative tool used that way in the genre (Drow, succubi, etc)

Easy_Lee

2015-06-30, 03:50 PM

Elbeyon

2015-06-30, 03:52 PM

The players should be able to choose character death before talking.

Vogonjeltz

2015-06-30, 04:16 PM

I'll reiterate that good Insight checks to recognize false confessions is the key to 'torturing for information'. Zone of Truth probably works well, torture to make them talk and Zone to know it is true.

'Torturing for fun' or 'Torturing to Punish' are a whole different deal

Insight is about trying to determine if someone is lying by "gleaning clues from body language, speech habits, and changes in mannerisms." Torture would fundamentally ruin any attempt to gain a read on these things because you'd be drastically deviating from any known baselines.

Zone of Truth is about as effective, in that the caster has no way of knowing if it worked on the creatures in question. Also it would require a Bard, Cleric, or Paladin to be engaging in this practice.

Battlebooze

2015-07-01, 01:12 AM

Flashy

2015-07-01, 01:59 AM

As a Bard player, I'm offended! :smalltongue:

Back in 3.5 I once played a rogue with a single skill point in perform (trumpet) who wandered around calling herself a travelling minstrel and was actually a lot of fun. The idea of music as torture reminded me.

Naanomi

2015-07-01, 10:41 AM

Lore Bards make th best torturers though, all the helpful spells and can lower victims opposed rolls; no instrament needed

Pentagon

2015-07-01, 12:43 PM

Sorry potentially long post!

As a DM who has actually tortured players...

Firstly I judged my players accordingly and felt that by running the encounter it would add something. My players were pretty good at role playing but liked a challenge.

Now one of my biggest observations with d&d is you can't really ever use conversation save or something on players - be it bluff, diplomacy or intimidate. This is because you are effectively telling a player how to role play their character in a position. Don't get me wrong I'll happily petrify, sleep or kill players who fail saves but telling a player what their character has to do or believe is very unfun and results in the GM basically playing all characters.

That is not to say however that you can't torture players! (If they as players will appreciate the change in pace as something different). But I was trying to avoid a position where player a was playing a no nonsense grizzled veteran who has no fear, failed intimidation resist oh you spill the beans. But my character wouldn't.. Position.

So I rounded my players up and could see them all smiling at me fully prepared to role play heroic resistance but not really feeling it would be difficult after all they're not feeling the pain. What I'm trying to say is there's no real incentive to make the pain stop if your character is taking it.

So like a previous poster above said, I did things that would annoy the player! For starters split them up so only the player being tortured was in the room. Rest had to speculate as to what was happening in the kitchen! Which worked great because it simulated the rest of them in the cell!

So started with rogue, then the torturer breaks his fingers one by one telling the player to add a penalty of 1 to sleight of hand and lock picking each time. All the while reminding the player he can stop it whenever he likes. Changing it for each class, ruining the face of the bard, fingers of rogue Etc.

But the players were also aware that to keep quiet was pointless if their friends spilled the beans immediately! So it had a prisoners dilemma element as they didn't know what their colleagues had said.

As you'd expect some players talked other's didn't, they escaped soon after to recover. But for me it added something compelling and engaging to the story because the players were compelled to make a real choice! But the choice wasnt taken from them by lame magical compulsions or high intimidate checks. Their characters remained theirs for the whole time which made the choices so much more real.

Whilst I agree torture is something not to be done lightly with the right players it can make them connect with their characters better which can only be a good thing!!

Sorry for essay!

Edit: just to add, agree with a lot of comments above - I guess my two points would be, only do if players are happy and don't railroad through intimidate or magic always let players have free will to make choices even if those choices are then hard.

Vogonjeltz

2015-07-01, 04:30 PM

That is not to say however that you can't torture players! (If they as players will appreciate the change in pace as something different). But I was trying to avoid a position where player a was playing a no nonsense grizzled veteran who has no fear, failed intimidation resist oh you spill the beans. But my character wouldn't.. Position.

So I rounded my players up and could see them all smiling at me fully prepared to role play heroic resistance but not really feeling it would be difficult after all they're not feeling the pain. What I'm trying to say is there's no real incentive to make the pain stop if your character is taking it.

So like a previous poster above said, I did things that would annoy the player! For starters split them up so only the player being tortured was in the room. Rest had to speculate as to what was happening in the kitchen! Which worked great because it simulated the rest of them in the cell!

I like this, though I'd probably avoid giving any kind of a penalty, but instead telegraph moves ahead of time (i.e. clear patterns of escalation) and I'd employ the lingering wounds chart in the DMG for maiming. This would afford the players plenty of opportunity to fess up and (maybe) avoid being tortured further or killed.

That being said, the purpose of torture isn't to extract useful information, so it's entirely possible the torturer doesn't believe them when they say the truth and continues on until the character is basically dead. Something along the lines of: "I believe you, but I can't afford to take any chances that you're holding out on me. I'm sure you can appreciate my position."

KorvinStarmast

2015-07-06, 07:38 AM

So it had a prisoners dilemma element as they didn't know what their colleagues had said.
Excellent post.

A point about reality: the prisoners dilemma is hypothetical, a thought experiment. One of the things that you first have to understand about being a prisoner IRL, not in a game, is that being under someone else's power, completely, means that on any given day you are dead if they choose. What you "choose" on their terms is an illusion of choice.

Mr.Moron

2015-07-06, 07:59 AM

Yeah, no fun, but if you do it then just make it a contest, CHA for the torturer vs. a CON check to be forced to give an honest answer to a question. Torturer's tools (musical instrument) would be the relevant proficiency.

Torture almost never reveals honest information though. The person being tortured just says whatever they think the torturer wants to hear to make the pain stop. If one must include torture mechanics they should at least account for the fact that it pretty much never extracts anything reliable or useful and is mostly just for show and/or the jollies of the person doing the torturing.

rollingForInit

2015-07-06, 08:15 AM

Personally I'd find a torture scene extremely boring to play, aside from any other potential issues. I wouldn't really see the appeal in role-playing something that's only pained screams and the DM saying "now I'm cutting off another finger ..."

Now, a real interrogation - that's another thing! That can always be fun. And really, using magic would be a much better interrogation technique than torture. Imagine casting some illusion, maybe some mind-altering spell, and let the player make saves for how much the character believes it. You know, typica trick them into talking to an ally and revealing something they otherwise wouldn't have. Something like that might actually be fun to role-play.

Easy_Lee

2015-07-06, 08:22 AM

Torture almost never reveals honest information though. The person being tortured just says whatever they think the torturer wants to hear to make the pain stop. If one must include torture mechanics they should at least account for the fact that it pretty much never extracts anything reliable or useful and is mostly just for show and/or the jollies of the person doing the torturing.

In real life that's how it works, but in fantasy it may be different.

Mr.Moron

2015-07-06, 08:30 AM

In real life that's how it works, but in fantasy it may be different.

I suppose in the same way some fantasy races might not need to drink water, breathe air or the universe might not be composed of physical elements. However if that's the case it's one of those really huge departures from reality that kind of needs a concrete in-universe explanation to be viable. A fantasy world shaped like a cube is fine, so long as you do something to recognize the conceit and explain how it works a bit. Cube-shaped worlds are incredibly alien and unlike our own and you'd need more than a simple cube-shaped map to really make sense of it.

A mind that tells the truth in response to torture is something very different from a human one, and I think you'd need more than some simple contest mechanics for it to make sense.

Easy_Lee

2015-07-06, 10:40 AM

I suppose in the same way some fantasy races might not need to drink water, breathe air or the universe might not be composed of physical elements. However if that's the case it's one of those really huge departures from reality that kind of needs a concrete in-universe explanation to be viable. A fantasy world shaped like a cube is fine, so long as you do something to recognize the conceit and explain how it works a bit. Cube-shaped worlds are incredibly alien and unlike our own and you'd need more than a simple cube-shaped map to really make sense of it.

A mind that tells the truth in response to torture is something very different from a human one, and I think you'd need more than some simple contest mechanics for it to make sense.

True, but D&D humans have also failed to reach our levels of technology, in spite of having thousands of years, potentially longer lifespans via vampirism and lichdom and such, and magic to do so. They also can survive falls from orbit given enough levels. And depending on the DM, a person who rolls low enough just might fail to tie his own shoes. So D&D humans are already pretty different. Having torture work on them, given that some people still think it works on real humans, is not unreasonable.

But as I and others have said, most players probably don't want their characters to be tortured. I wouldn't mind, since it's a good source of character development, so I think it best that the DM ask his players ahead of time.

Kurt Kurageous

2015-07-06, 03:37 PM

And depending on the DM, a person who rolls low enough just might fail to tie his own shoes.

This bugged me too. Tie shoes is very easy, therefore DC5 DEX. But if you don't have advantage (+5), you will fail 25% of the time. That's ridiculous. Everything does not require a die roll.

What I take a die roll to mean is I am facing active opposition or adversity not normally encountered while doing the task with significant consequences for my failure. The task itself is still very easy. But doing it in the middle of the street in traffic requires a die roll.

This is why I advantage a lot of things as a DM. No active enemy, advantage. Adequate lighting, advantage. I think there's a line in DMG that says if you have adequate time, anything is automatic. Which brings me back to torture.

My training as a potential target of torture and independent reading in this area says that given enough time and motivation, anyone will talk. What they say is another matter. Use magic, not a mechanic. Or just admit that your story needs rewriting. Instead of torture, just hold them for ransom. Now the party owes the kingdom 10,000/level or something like that, and they have no credit while needing replacement gear. That sucks enough.

Now to player motivation vis torture. If you insist on using torture, torture away their XP. Who wants to be 1st level again? Life drain by certain undead (vampires) used to take levels off (AD&D MM). Being in the Hanoi Hilton wasn't exactly helping the pilot's skill sets either.

Still, I'd recommend against PC torture as part of your storyline. What kind of memory are you trying to make here?

KorvinStarmast

2015-07-06, 04:46 PM

This bugged me too. Tie shoes is very easy, therefore DC5 DEX.
No. Tying shoes is trivial, therefore no need to bother with a DC check unless there is a significant obstacle and or event related to shoe tying, or untying.

Easy_Lee and Mr Moron:
I see you have fallen for the meme. IRL, things aren't this simple.

Torture almost never reveals honest information though. Not true. It sometimes does, and sometimes doesn't, and it isn't like using a vending machine.
The model of "input torture get answer" isn't like using a gumball machine, Jack Bauer Fantasies considered. As noted, the problem is how reliable is what information that is extracted? The interrogator typically needs to investigate other sources as well. On the other hand, when combined with other interrogation methods, it can provide answers. This is a part of why that method of interrogation is so damned controversial, even within the counterintelligence community itself. I've a relative who is a cop. He is glad that it's off the menu for him and his colleagues, because it adds a layer of complication to an already difficult task.

The person being tortured just says whatever they think the torturer wants to hear to make the pain stop.
This is an oversimplification, with a kernel of truth inside.

In real life that's how it works, but in fantasy it may be different As above, it isn't that simple.

The other problem is: the person under this kind of torture interrogation might not actually know the answer in the first place.

Slipperychicken

2015-07-06, 11:40 PM

Occam's Razor. Torture should just be an intimidate check, perhaps with advantage if effective methods are used.

I'd elaborate a little further:

Resisting a session of torture is a wisdom saving throw, DC = 10 + torturer's charisma modifier. The torturer may add his proficiency bonus to the DC if he is proficient with the intimidate skill or torture tools. The saving throw DC is increased by 5 if the torturer uses methods which are custom-tailored to the subject's unique fears (i.e. using spiders for an arachnophobic subject, drowning for an aquaphobic one, torturing the children of a devoted parent, etc). If it seems clear to the subject that the torture will end soon regardless of the subject's response, decrease the DC by 5. At the DM's option, a torturer may use his strength modifier instead of charisma for the DC.

A subject may at any time speak as he or she wishes, but failing a saving throw against torture means the subject is compelled to say something in an effort to make it stop. The subject may try to deceive the torturer (or other observers) to withhold information, however such an attempt to lie is resolved as normal with a charisma(deception) check opposed by the wisdom(insight) of anyone observing the torture. Failing three consecutive saving throws against torture (or rolling a natural 1 on a saving throw to resist it) means the subject must immediately answer the torturer's inquiries (if any) to the best of his knowledge, and if the torture continues despite the subject uttering the truth, the subject must say anything he thinks might bring an end the suffering.

By default, a torture session lasts an hour, with the saving throw made at the end of that period. Though it may certainly be painful, it deals no damage to the subject if the torturer succeeds a DC 15 intelligence check. The torturer may increase the intensity of torture to reduce the time between saving throws (down to as little as one round), but doing so deals increasing amounts of damage. A torturer may also increase session length to avoid dealing damage to the subject. A torturer may attempt consecutive torture sessions without interruption. A subject cannot rest or regain hit dice during a torture session. Proficiency with torture tools means that the torturer may avoid damaging the subject without needing to make a check.

Also, if you're using sanity rules, torture is messed up and harms the sanity of everyone involved with it, although torturers suffer much less sanity loss than subjects do. A torturer who is proficient with torture tools does not suffer sanity loss from conducting a torture session unless the act is somehow deeply personal (such as torturing a close friend, family member, idol, beloved pet, violating a deeply-held belief, etc).

EDIT: When an NPC is to be tortured, it is recommended for the DM to make his saving throw in secret and determine in advance the extent of the subject's knowledge (if any) relating to the torturer's inquiries.

KorvinStarmast

2015-07-07, 12:55 PM

HoarsHalberd

2015-07-07, 02:56 PM

EDIT: When an NPC is to be tortured, it is recommended for the DM to make his saving throw in secret and determine in advance the extent of the subject's knowledge (if any) relating to the torturer's inquiries.

I'd also recommend that when information has been divulged by the subject that either the torturer or other person in the room can make either an insight check or an investigation check (only available if the person making the check has access to corroborating details) against DC8+Cha+Deception in case of a lie or DC 1 and will be told they believe it to be true in case of a failure against a lie or if it's true.