Creating a Spellcaster Monster: Rath Modar vs. Mage

[Dralnu]

This is something I'm struggling with.

Okay, I want to make a CR 4 Wizard. So I'm looking at other examples to model after and I come across the Monster Manual "Mage" (p347) and HotDQ "Rath Modar" (p92). Both are CR 6, but Rath is way stronger. +1 AC, +31 HP, +2 spellcaster levels, and the Illusory Self reaction.

In terms of DMG guidelines, both are very low on HP for their CR but make up for it (I think) with appropriate AC that is boosted with spells (shield, mirror image, globe of invulnerability, counterspell) -- though Rath obviously wins here. They have roughly the same offensive capabilities, they both have fireball, the mage has cone of cold but rath can cast fireball in a 6th slot for more damage. Both are significantly higher damage than average, but the to-hit and spell save DC values are about right.

So they're both CR 6, but Rath is clearly much stronger. So which is "right" for CR 6?

Also their spellcaster levels seem.. arbitrary? DMG appears to be silent on making spellcaster monsters pretty much. I'm guessing the spellcaster level doesn't really matter, it's picked just so they can have the right spells the designer wants to use, and what really matters is Defense and Offense.

[TheOOB]

Monster design is always more art than science.

I also wouldn't base stats on Rath Mondar, he's a specific character and a boss intended to be faced at the end of an entire adventure book.

[Gnomes2169]

Monster design is always more art than science.

I also wouldn't base stats on Rath Mondar, he's a specific character and a boss intended to be faced at the end of an entire adventure book.

He's also supposed to be a boss that gets away after the party encounters him, so keep that in mind too (they even go so far as to say that he can turn invisible and fly away, despite having no objects that would concentrate on either effect for him).

[Dralnu]

That's true, but shouldn't he be a higher CR than the Mage regardless, if he's pretty much Mage+? Both are CR 6.

[SharkForce]

That's true, but shouldn't he be a higher CR than the Mage regardless, if he's pretty much Mage+? Both are CR 6.

i have some unfortunate news for you:

CR is not consistently applied across the board in 5th edition. a lot of it seems completely arbitrary. in all likelihood, rath is supposed to run away at some point, and so they decided that for all intents and purposes he has a lower CR (which is silly, it isn't like the regular mage has a goal of dying in battle against the PCs).

alternately, the person making the decisions may have just been really bad at what they do, or the mage might be on the very low end of CR 6 while rath is on the very high end of CR 6.

who knows?

[pwykersotz]

i have some unfortunate news for you:

CR is not consistently applied across the board in 5th edition. a lot of it seems completely arbitrary. in all likelihood, rath is supposed to run away at some point, and so they decided that for all intents and purposes he has a lower CR (which is silly, it isn't like the regular mage has a goal of dying in battle against the PCs).

alternately, the person making the decisions may have just been really bad at what they do, or the mage might be on the very low end of CR 6 while rath is on the very high end of CR 6.

who knows?

It is definitely applied consistently. :smallannoyed:

A Mage is a CR 4 Defensively, since they have Mage Armor listed and he can cast Shield each round for the first three rounds. He's CR 8 Offensively since we take the average of his first three rounds, assuming he hits his hardest. That means a Cone of Cold (8d8) and two Ice Storms (2d8+4d6). Average damage over 3 rounds is 56.

(8+4)/2 = 6

Rath Modar is a CR 4 Defensively, he has Mage Armor but not shield. He is a CR 8 Offensively since his Fireball (8d6) can be used three times to make 56 average damage per round.

(8+4)/2 = 6

Now the caveat. If the DM has Rath cast from higher level spell slots, using them for raw damage, his CR should be increased to 8. After all, two 5th level and one 6th level slot up the damage to 72 average, which puts his Offensive CR at 11.

(11+4)/2 = 8 when rounded up.


Spell selection matters. Enemies aren't gauged by spell slots alone. They both follow the guidelines exactly. I deconstructed them both per the rules with no troubles. Now SHOULD Rath be judged based on his absolute max? I personally think so. I think a CR8 would have fit him better. But it's easy to see how and why they set his CR. It's very consistent.

[PoeticDwarf]

This is something I'm struggling with.

Okay, I want to make a CR 4 Wizard. So I'm looking at other examples to model after and I come across the Monster Manual "Mage" (p347) and HotDQ "Rath Modar" (p92). Both are CR 6, but Rath is way stronger. +1 AC, +31 HP, +2 spellcaster levels, and the Illusory Self reaction.

In terms of DMG guidelines, both are very low on HP for their CR but make up for it (I think) with appropriate AC that is boosted with spells (shield, mirror image, globe of invulnerability, counterspell) -- though Rath obviously wins here. They have roughly the same offensive capabilities, they both have fireball, the mage has cone of cold but rath can cast fireball in a 6th slot for more damage. Both are significantly higher damage than average, but the to-hit and spell save DC values are about right.

So they're both CR 6, but Rath is clearly much stronger. So which is "right" for CR 6?

Also their spellcaster levels seem.. arbitrary? DMG appears to be silent on making spellcaster monsters pretty much. I'm guessing the spellcaster level doesn't really matter, it's picked just so they can have the right spells the designer wants to use, and what really matters is Defense and Offense.

The mage is very weak, even if he uses his spells like a boss.

I'd say a mage is CR 5 and the other a strong CR 6.
If you want to make a CR 4 mage, make him a lv. 8 spellcaster (with HP around 40) or a lv. 6 spellcaster (with some more HP and 1 more AC).

[Dralnu]

Hmm, okay. 6th level caster, a little higher AC and HP. Am I doing this right?

http://i.imgur.com/rPO11P0.png

[pwykersotz]

Hmm, okay. 6th level caster, a little higher AC and HP. Am I doing this right?

http://i.imgur.com/rPO11P0.png

I get CR of 5.
Defensive is 3, effective AC is 21 and HP is 45.
Offensive is 7, 56 DPR and DC13/+5 spell attack.