Maximum security/supermax prisons?

[The Insanity]

What reasons could there be for a realm to have maximum security/supermax prisons? I want to feature them in my world, maybe even as a setting for a game or two, but I'm having a hard time justifying realms keeping dangerous criminals locked up instead of, you know, executing them. I mean, I could think of some reasons/justifications, but would like opinions from greater minds.

[Callin]

This was a dragon mag article one time if memory serves me correctly. Also why not have maximum security prisons?

[torrasque666]

Because there's hope for rehabilitation? Because a society believes that execution is akin to murder? Because execution isn't necessarily in line with the harm done by the crime?


All good reasons for supermax.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Maybe paladins lose class abilities when executing certain criminals (the ones that aren't [evil])? More generally, maybe the death penalty is considered a pretty nasty thing, and not something a civilized (LG, NG, CG) nation would employ.

[PsyBomb]

If you have an entity that isn't amenable to rehabilitation, but which you lack the means to actually kill? Think of a Tarrasque Containment Facility in a world where nobody is over 16th level. They can't keep it dead, so the best they can do is lock it up.

Other reasons have already been covered, but do note that actual rehabilitation is basically impossible if they need to be confined to a Supermax prison. A place to lock up rogue Thrallherds and amoral Alchemists for the rest of their (un)natural life? sure. Not usually a place to turn them back to the good of society.

[Uncle Pine]

And here I thought you needed suggestions to create a maximum security prison...

Here are a couple of suggestions:
- Maybe the central governor doesn't believe in death penalty? Think about the fantasy version of Cesare Beccaria.
- Search "The Redeemery" on the boards, it's effectively a maximum security prison.
- Maybe an Evil government prefers long-term torture to instant death. Maybe an Evil group of supernatural beings (devils, demons, etc.) needs long-term torture.

[Karl Aegis]

Carceri: The Plane of Supermax Prisons.

[Extra Anchovies]

There are some creatures that can't die. Also, even if you kill a character they can return as an undead or outsider of some sort; keeping them in the prison lets you know where they are at all times.

[Inevitability]

There were a few examples in the aforementioned dragon magazine article, which might provide you with some inspiration. For example, there's a lich whose phylactery can't be found, but also a bard who would simply become a martyr if he were to be executed.

[The Insanity]

Guess I was overthinking it. In my mind D&D worlds are much more okay with killing, seeing as death is pretty much part of everyday life for most people, so I thought that most realms would resort to execution.
Well, since the original topic was pretty much solved, I'd like to repurpose this thread into creating the prison, or at least a few notable and interesting prisoners.

[nedz]

Because if you ll them, they can be rezzed.

[Zakerst]

You could always have the LE supermax where people are imprisoned because you an extract liquid pain (or more insidiously Ambrosia, now the inmates don't want to leave) from them to pay their debts, or trap their souls in the prison itself when they die, or to keep being to powerful to be left un-chained but to valuable/useful to slay outright (powerful demons, devils, outsiders in general, "mad" heroes, etc.) or just as a from of isolation, in fact there's an elder evil that runs something along these lines Pandorym I think, also the Worm that Walks.

Another option is for the kind of thing where killing someone is letting them "off the hook" so imprisonment is useful as a tool of punishment where the supermax is worse than death itself, especially for Good people. You might also find one useful as a meat grinder type of supermax where anyone powerful enough to escape has also been corrupted enough to make them see things more your way (see taint and other forms of corruption).

Or for people with really high saves but not immunity trapping them someplace with repeating mind rape traps. Or you could go for the whole Manchurian Candidate situation with progressive brain washing and sublimation of personalities.

As a tangent of the Meat Grinder you could use it as a way for semi-natural selection to produce Ikea Tarrasques, for the more hands off "I have better things to do than set up a breeding program but I'll totally use the end result" type of baddy.

Or you could use it like the prison used to hold Jack in Mass Effect 2, you keep big scary things locked up for a price, rather than killing them off for a more lucrative bounty hunting career. (which lets be honest is about half of what adventurers do any way e.g. "slay the dragon" type of adventures).

[Extra Anchovies]

Well, since the original topic was pretty much solved, I'd like to repurpose this thread into creating the prison, or at least a few notable and interesting prisoners.

I'd make it a fast-time demiplane. You can send someone in, have them serve 30 years, and when they come back to the material only a few months have passed. Maybe 1 year on the plane = 1 week on the material?

That lets you block or at least interfere with most divinations that would be cast by or targeted on inmates, and prevents any attempts as physical entry or exit. The entire place could be blanketed in Dimensional Anchor effects save for one very secure, secret room used for bringing in supplies and new inmates (inmates brought in are blindfolded until they're in their cells). Prison staff should probably be inevitables (maybe overseen by some modrons), since they can't be corrupted or bribed.

[Flickerdart]

I'd actually go the other way - slow time planes mean that all possible appeals could take place within the creature's first few days in jail, and even if it escapes, the society that jailed it won't have to deal with it anymore.

Though maybe that would work better for regular type prisons than supermax ones.

[Hecuba]

What reasons could there be for a realm to have maximum security/supermax prisons? I want to feature them in my world, maybe even as a setting for a game or two, but I'm having a hard time justifying realms keeping dangerous criminals locked up instead of, you know, executing them. I mean, I could think of some reasons/justifications, but would like opinions from greater minds.

There is the possibility that the ruler or society has ethical concerns. That's a bit close to this board's RL politics ban for my comfort, so I'll let you address that yourself.

Tactical Reasons

Resurrection is generally easier than escape after ECL 9 or so.
Characters above a certain ECL are a scarce commodity.
If necromancy is illegal, you might need to send the wizard who is making zombies to jail. You might also need to take him out of jail when the other country invades with their zombies (presuming you can keep him on a sufficiently short leash).

Some powerful prisoners are also politically important enough that there would be consequences to killing them.
Consider a setting where the royals tend to be higher level. Such a facility might be needed to contain, say, the princess of a country you are at war with. With the princess alive, you can use her to sue for peace. With the princess dead, your enemy is able to recruit an additional army composed entirely of vengeful plumbers.

Without such a prison, there is a people of a certain level of power can ignore any laws for which your society is not willing to impose the death penalty.

If your only recourse for dealing with a level 13 sorcerer is the death penalty, then either you need to be willing to put them to death for petty theft or you have effectively given them immunity for that crime.

[Honest Tiefling]

I was going to suggest the sillier option for this prison: Kicks and giggles! I mean, bum fights are okay, but you need something more after a while. And you don't want your best fighters wandering off or offing each other when you can't watch!

Are the players supposed to be breaking into this place (I assume so, given the nature of PCs) or what? And what level are they when interacting with this place?

[Andezzar]

If you have an entity that isn't amenable to rehabilitation, but which you lack the means to actually kill? Think of a Tarrasque Containment Facility in a world where nobody is over 16th level. They can't keep it dead, so the best they can do is lock it up.Permanently keeping the tarrasque out of business can be achieved by a 7th level wizard without much optimization. It may even work earlier, but Summon Undead IV for an allip and Fly to keep out of reach while summoning the Allip and letting it work will suffice. No prison needed for that beast.


Other reasons have already been covered, but do note that actual rehabilitation is basically impossible if they need to be confined to a Supermax prison. A place to lock up rogue Thrallherds and amoral Alchemists for the rest of their (un)natural life? sure. Not usually a place to turn them back to the good of society.Where is the contradiction between a secure prison and rehabilitation?


There are some creatures that can't die. Also, even if you kill a character they can return as an undead or outsider of some sort; keeping them in the prison lets you know where they are at all times.Yup, swift execution without prior repentance is a sure way to create mohrgs from certain criminals.

[PsyBomb]

Permanently keeping the tarrasque out of business can be achieved by a 7th level wizard without much optimization. It may even work earlier, but Summon Undead IV for an allip and Fly to keep out of reach while summoning the Allip and letting it work will suffice. No prison needed for that beast.

Where is the contradiction between a secure prison and rehabilitation?

Yup, swift execution without prior repentance is a sure way to create mohrgs from certain criminals.

I was just citing an example in the first one, and I also never presume good CharOpt tricks among NPCs (that one doesn't work in Pathfinder, BTW, the Tarrasque is immune to both ability Damage and Drain there).

Second one is getting into politics if we pursue the real-world psychology too far. Long story short on game-side, though, is that if it's worth the expense of placing them in Supermax, redemption is either completely against their nature or extremely likely to be temporary (or else they don't do their destruction intentionally, think of a mid-level Sorceror with a terminal case of Spell Cascade that can't be cured for whatever plot reason)

[Andezzar]

Second one is getting into politics if we pursue the real-world psychology too far. Long story short on game-side, though, is that if it's worth the expense of placing them in Supermax, redemption is either completely against their nature or extremely likely to be temporary (or else they don't do their destruction intentionally, think of a mid-level Sorceror with a terminal case of Spell Cascade that can't be cured for whatever plot reason)The thing is regardless of their motivations or ability to change individuals can be a lot more dangerous to themselves and others in game than in RL. As such you would probably need very elaborate security measures for certain criminals anyways, if you wanted to prevent escape. Am I missing some other feature besides security that differentiates supermax prisons from other correctional facilities?

[Ashtagon]

Carceri: The Plane of Supermax Prisons.

Step 1: Take them to Carceri.

Step two: Cast imprisonment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/imprisonment.htm)

[Andezzar]

Well this does nothing for rehabilitation or punishment (besides being out of his time when the spell is broken).

[Ashtagon]

Well this does nothing for rehabilitation or punishment (besides being out of his time when the spell is broken).

Anyone who needs maximum security probably isn't a realistic candidate for rehabilitation anyway. tbh, maximum security prisons tend to make inmates so alienated from normalcy that rehabilitation is sometimes impossible.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/29/magazine/inside-americas-toughest-federal-prison.html?_r=0

http://carrington.edu/blog/administrative/anatomy-of-a-supermax-prison/

[Amon Winterfall]

It's an interesting question but I tend to come at this with a different kind of reasoning:

1) For some reason, there is a certain class of people who can't live in general society.
2) Killing these people is undesirable, evil, or otherwise likely to work badly.
3) It's hard to keep these people inside, which requires heavy investment.

In the D&D world, this seems to be a place you'd either take innocent people or high powered criminals guilty of minor offenses to serve time behind bars. Perhaps something like Psions, Warlocks or Sorcerers are fundamentally scary but potentially useful to a nation so they are kept locked up?

The idea of keeping big evil guys locked up doesn't make a lot of sense, even if you accept the ethical idea that soul destruction is evil. There are too many better choices, like the aforementioned having them stuck in Carceri after dunking them in the river Styx.

But perhaps society has people that they don't like but they need. This is an interesting idea and suggests a lot of world-building and cultural questions about what and why this is the case. The power level, overall rules as to why this is the case, and the resources available would all influence the how it works.

[ExLibrisMortis]

A supermax prison might actually involve the death penalty. It's just a series of safes with thinaun shuriken in them. Don't switch the labels.

[Ettina]

You could always have the LE supermax where people are imprisoned because you an extract liquid pain (or more insidiously Ambrosia, now the inmates don't want to leave) from them to pay their debts

In one setting I'm working on, the Big Bad combines that with Feeblemind so they're less likely to escape or seriously oppose the guards. The locks on their cells and their shackles are simple Int puzzles.

[MesiDoomstalker]

The thing is regardless of their motivations or ability to change individuals can be a lot more dangerous to themselves and others in game than in RL. As such you would probably need very elaborate security measures for certain criminals anyways, if you wanted to prevent escape. Am I missing some other feature besides security that differentiates supermax prisons from other correctional facilities?

Since I've been playing Batman: Arkham City recently, at least one difference (in a fantasy setting at least) are individuals the authorities are incapable of killing. Like Clayface. Lop off his head, it just rolls back to and reabsorbs into his body. While such immortality issues are rarer in DnD (the one I can think of is the Lich whose Phylactery is still at large mentioned up thread), but any number of plot reasons can give you unkillable criminals.

Back to building a Supermax, I suggest a plane that isn't the Material (personally I'm adverse to making your own Demiplanes, but thats just me). I don't know the planes super well, so I will just mimic others and say Carceri.

[ArcanistSupreme]

A supermax prison might actually involve the death penalty. It's just a series of safes with thinaun shuriken in them. Don't switch the labels.

Along these lines, I've been toying with a dungeon, deep beneath the bowels of the castle known to few outside of those who guard it. Behind layers of secret passages, magic wards, and eternally bound guardians is a room lined with small cabinets, each with a small window showing what's inside. And behind each of the hundreds of tiny windows is a stone figurine. Which is of course the result of the combination of stone to flesh and shrink item. But some of the labels have been written in languages so ancient that none but the most learned of sages will be able to decipher them, and others have faded entirely...

[Trasilor]

Along these lines, I've been toying with a dungeon, deep beneath the bowels of the castle known to few outside of those who guard it. Behind layers of secret passages, magic wards, and eternally bound guardians is a room lined with small cabinets, each with a small window showing what's inside. And behind each of the hundreds of tiny windows is a stone figurine. Which is of course the result of the combination of stone to flesh and shrink item. But some of the labels have been written in languages so ancient that none but the most learned of sages will be able to decipher them, and others have faded entirely...

ooooh...going to 'borrow' this idea for my game. :smallbiggrin:

[Darrin]

Which is of course the result of the combination of stone to flesh and shrink item.

This is a favorite of mine, as petrification carries some unexpected features. The person who is petrified no longer counts as either living or dead, so divination spells that target people or creatures fail. The statue counts as an object, so it can still be found via discern location, but only if the caster has touched the object at least once.

The smoky confinement spell (Complete Mage) is a bit more expedient, and offers a more interesting "prison break" scenario via a shatter spell.

[Mehangel]

I was just citing an example in the first one, and I also never presume good CharOpt tricks among NPCs (that one doesn't work in Pathfinder, BTW, the Tarrasque is immune to both ability Damage and Drain there).

While it is true that the Tarrasque is immune to both ability damage and energy drain, strangely enough the Tarrasque is not immune to ability drain (This is true with both Pathfinder and 3.5 Tarrasque). The allip in 3.5 has a touch that does wisdom drain. The Pathfinder Allip has the wisdom drain also, but only on a critical hit. So, yeah, it still works as far as I see...

[Ferronach]

As for the prison design, DDO has a really cool ruined prison that still houses some inmates. This video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hv06-LlPvOs)should give you a quick overview of the prison in it's inmates. It combines elaborate sequirity with separate planes.

[torrasque666]

While it is true that the Tarrasque is immune to both ability damage and energy drain, strangely enough the Tarrasque is not immune to ability drain (This is true with both Pathfinder and 3.5 Tarrasque). The allip in 3.5 has a touch that does wisdom drain. The Pathfinder Allip has the wisdom drain also, but only on a critical hit. So, yeah, it still works as far as I see...
They reprinted it in Inner Sea Gods, that one's immunities are "ability damage, ability drain, acid, bleed, disease, energy drain, fire, mind-affecting effects, paralysis, permanent wounds, petrification, poison, polymorph" so yeah.

[Mehangel]

They reprinted it in Inner Sea Gods, that one's immunities are "ability damage, ability drain, acid, bleed, disease, energy drain, fire, mind-affecting effects, paralysis, permanent wounds, petrification, poison, polymorph" so yeah.

Yet strangely enough they have not updated the Pathfinder Reference Document. But you are correct... I see they have it listed in the Pathfinder SRD, which while not the most official site for pathfinder information, is the most widely used.

[Thealtruistorc]

A whole adventure I am running takes place on a giant dimensionally locked prison plane where the souls of unrepentant killers and incredibly powerful warriors go (PCs got in there easily). The idea behind it was to create a repository for all the dangerous souls even the gods were afraid of, and who were considered too unstable to pass on to the afterlife. The catch is, nothing has yet been found that can escape the plane (in other words, even minor gods who get trapped down there would be at the mercy of every psycho that finds them).

[ekarney]

They could be used as holding for criminals whom are necessary to an investigation.
For example, a captain in a dangerous mercenary group, if he's executed and you use speak with dead you've got nothing to bargain with him for, in a supermax you could keep him alive, and subsequently willing to tell you what his master's plans are.

They might be used as containment for Liches, who'll just pop back up outside of the prison if they die, it could be used to even keep them there until they reveal where their phylactery is so that they can be spared the torture of an eternity in prison.

They could be used for captured royalty and the like, which would mean war or retribution if they were executed, but a heft sum of gold/diplomatic favours if returned home alive, and whilst the royalty might be too competent at escaping, their bodyguards or the kingdoms agents might be, or be sent in to try and break them out.

[Slipperychicken]

justifying realms keeping dangerous criminals locked up instead of, you know, executing them. I mean, I could think of some reasons/justifications, but would like opinions from greater minds.

The government is paranoid and cruel; they want to keep dangerous intellectuals in jail, because simply executing them would make them martyrs for the opposition. They also like to keep a good stock of bodies for the state wizards' experiments. After all, no-one will riot if a deranged killer dies or is horribly mutated (this also has the fun effect of turning some of the worst criminals into literal monsters). Not to mention that prison creates plenty of jobs to award to cronies, and it's a good source of fresh blood for that vampire cabal which is paying off the warden.

[Jack_Simth]

Yeah, lots of possible justifications.

And in D&D, past a point, all prisons will revolve around permanent incapacitation methods - Smokey Confinement, Binding, Trap the Soul, Flesh to Stone, et cetera. I mean, sure, you could do a magic device trap antimagic field or something... but someone might get clever.

[Maglubiyet]

What about killing the prisoner, then raising them as a mindless undead and making them stand in a small cell. Or heck, just stack them all in a box.

That way they can't go on to the next plane. It's a prison for their body AND soul.

[Flickerdart]

What about killing the prisoner, then raising them as a mindless undead and making them stand in a small cell. Or heck, just stack them all in a box.

That way they can't go on to the next plane. It's a prison for their body AND soul.

While an undead creature can't be resurrected, I'm not so sure that the soul isn't able to move on to the afterlife.

[atemu1234]

I once made an extraplanar prison plane... I'll dig up the stats sometime.

[Maglubiyet]

While an undead creature can't be resurrected, I'm not so sure that the soul isn't able to move on to the afterlife.

It CAN be resurrected after you destroy it, though. To me that implies that its soul is bound to the body, similar to a Soul Bind. You need to free it first before you can restore the body to working condition and then you can call it back. The descriptions for some of the undead say that their undeath is a punishment, implying that they are still themselves, i.e. the same souls.

[atemu1234]

It CAN be resurrected after you destroy it, though. To me that implies that its soul is bound to the body, similar to a Soul Bind. You need to free it first before you can restore the body to working condition and then you can call it back. The descriptions for some of the undead say that their undeath is a punishment, implying that they are still themselves, i.e. the same souls.

Reminds me of one of my houserules that involved fivefold soul thingies...

[Andezzar]

It CAN be resurrected after you destroy it, though. To me that implies that its soul is bound to the body, similar to a Soul Bind. You need to free it first before you can restore the body to working condition and then you can call it back. The descriptions for some of the undead say that their undeath is a punishment, implying that they are still themselves, i.e. the same souls.Unless there is magic involved, the soul leaves the body and becomes a petitioner. Whatever you do with the body e.g. create zombies or skeletons is irrelevant to the soul. When you destroy the undead, it is irrelevant if the corpse (if it exists) previously was undead. You can raise it normally, if you do not have a corpse as with incorporeal undead you need stronger spells. What people sometimes forget is that raising/resurrecting is not automatic. The soul has to want to come back.

[Maglubiyet]

Unless there is magic involved, the soul leaves the body and becomes a petitioner. Whatever you do with the body e.g. create zombies or skeletons is irrelevant to the soul. When you destroy the undead, it is irrelevant if the corpse (if it exists) previously was undead. You can raise it normally, if you do not have a corpse as with incorporeal undead you need stronger spells. What people sometimes forget is that raising/resurrecting is not automatic. The soul has to want to come back.

It's not clear from the rules that this is the case. Unless you have a citation?

Speak with Dead is the only place I've seen that says that the soul is gone, but then that's not an animation spell. Many undead possess the skills they had in life and some incorporeal dead have the appearance they had in life. How is undeath a curse if your soul goes on to its final reward and just your body continues on?

[Andezzar]

Many undead possess the skills they had in life and some incorporeal dead have the appearance they had in life. How is undeath a curse if your soul goes on to its final reward and just your body continues on?I thought we were talking about mindless undead.

[Maglubiyet]

I thought we were talking about mindless undead.

Resurrect has the same prohibition on mindless undead as it does on the intelligent kind.

If they need to be intelligent, then they could go with Karnnathi zombies.

[Th3N3xtGuy]

A super transplanar prison for the unkilliable dangerous criminals. Like a lich that phylactery is unreachable so instead of killing him which will free him from custody he is imprisoned so he does less damage to the multiverse. Or a demon lord that will get sent back to the abyss if killed outside of the abyss so hes locked up. Stuff like that.

[Necroticplague]

Because you don't want to reward them. When you kill someone, their soul goes to the appropriate Outer Plane. Pretty much all of these are actually pretty good places if you have the right mindset (even the Abyss has its upsides). Lo and behold, the system works so those with the appropriate mindset usually end up on the plane most suited to them. As a result, killing someone can actually be rewarding them. Thus, imprisonment.

Or, because you might need living subjects to be subjected to something unpleasant, and a prison provides an excellent source of candidates (i.e, liquid pain or ambrosia farming, arcane experimentation, feeding intelligent undead members of the community).

Alternatively,a max security prison could be initiated as a form of economic stimulus. The creation and operation of such could involve thousands of people, depending on its size and thoroughness. Basically, a public works program that can help deal with crime.