PDA

View Full Version : CR Question



rollfrenzy
2007-04-28, 07:19 AM
Ok I have heard on several threads that the Challenge rating assumes you are meeting the creature face to face in an open field somewhere, and that any equipment, henchmen, lairs, etc. represent a different challenge or up the CR.

If this is the case, shouldn't PC's be considered MUCH higher CR's than thier level, because they have equipment, henchmen, lairs, plannnig etc.?

And If That stuff is taken into account in the Pc's CR shouldn't, say, a Dragon's Horde (and his ability to spend it) be considered part of his CR?

Green Bean
2007-04-28, 07:36 AM
*edit*

Nevermind. Misread the DMG :smallredface:

Jaltum
2007-04-28, 07:38 AM
No.

That "etc" in "henchmen, lairs, etc," includes class levels. A creature with a base CR of 10 and 3 levels of Cleric is CR 13. The CR of a PC without class levels is, effectively, 0, then +1 CR for every class level.

EDIT: Assuming the base race doesn't have an LA, of course. Honestly, I was thinking about humans.

Equipment and henchmen and so forth are factored into class levels by WBL.

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-04-28, 07:46 AM
CR is better used with monsters. As a rule of thumb, monsters don't usually have items they can use but have higher stats and HD than the PCs.

An NPC character has a CR equal to his level. Such a character, even if he is of the core classes, has less resources (gp) than an equivalent PC and generally lower ability scores.


The more combat options a creature has, the more difficult it is to calculate its CR and the higher that CR is in a set ECL. For example, a lvl 10 meele fighter is less dangerous to the PCs than a lvl 10 fighter that is both good with a bow and in meele who, in turn, is less dangerous than a straight blast wizard who, in turn, is less dangerous than a wizard with a wide range of spell combos and utility spells. (that I say from experience, not the RAW CR system)

Similarly, it is more difficult to calculate the CR of a great wurm gold dragon than it is to calculate the CR of a 50 HD advanced giant. The giant is, supposedly, stronger. However, the dragon has a vast array of combat options. The more competent the player than runs the dragon, the more dangerous the dragon.

Inigo_Carmine
2007-04-28, 08:44 AM
Ok I have heard on several threads that the Challenge rating assumes you are meeting the creature face to face in an open field somewhere, and that any equipment, henchmen, lairs, etc. represent a different challenge or up the CR.


Don't confuse CR and EL.

CR (Challenge Rating) is based solely off of the monster's abilties/items. It is the base difficulty of the encounter. Each individual's CR is also what determines what XP the PCs get.

Multiple creatures (whether henchmen, allies, etc), favorable/unfavorable circumstances/environment will effect the EL (Encounter Level). The EL is just a tool for the DM to try and determine the difficulty of the encounter.

UglyPanda
2007-04-28, 09:00 AM
Mind Flayers have an ECL of about double its CR. The ability that causes it to have a massive CR (mind control) adds the CR of the affected to the CR calculations of the Mind Flayer encounter.

the_tick_rules
2007-04-28, 10:30 AM
well CR is based on an opponets abilities, not how intelligently they are played.

PinkysBrain
2007-04-28, 10:10 PM
And If That stuff is taken into account in the Pc's CR shouldn't, say, a Dragon's Horde (and his ability to spend it) be considered part of his CR?
No, because in general there will be very little directly useful in there.

You are in general not supposed to use treasure in any meaningful way to increase the abilities of monsters, they just aren't balanced for that. If you do give them customized equipment expect their actual challenge to shoot through the roof. There are lots of high AC intelligent creatures who get almost all their AC from natural armor for instance, if you give those actual armor / barding and AC boosting items and use them at their original CR the PCs won't be hitting him with normal attacks on anything short of a 20.

If you want to chose equipment for NPCs give them class levels and give them customized equipment based on the number of those class levels.

Saph
2007-04-29, 07:35 AM
Ok I have heard on several threads that the Challenge rating assumes you are meeting the creature face to face in an open field somewhere, and that any equipment, henchmen, lairs, etc. represent a different challenge or up the CR.

No to the first part, yes to the second. CR mostly ignores environment, so you can run into the monster anywhere, but yes, henchmen, extra gear, etc. mean a higher CR.


If this is the case, shouldn't PC's be considered MUCH higher CR's than thier level, because they have equipment, henchmen, lairs, plannnig etc.?

No, PCs are assumed to have gear of value determined by the Wealth By Level chart in the DMG. Henchmen, however, are likely to count as extra party members and raise the party's effective level.

Tactics, location, etc. isn't taken into account. PCs can use planning and tactics, but so can monsters.


And If That stuff is taken into account in the Pc's CR shouldn't, say, a Dragon's Horde (and his ability to spend it) be considered part of his CR?

Dragons are a bad example because they're more like a PC than a random monster; you're supposed to design and customise them. As for their hoard, that depends on the dragon. If you look at the Draconomicon, some dragons have portable wealth, some have magic items, some have lairs, some have massive complexes and hundreds of minions. Relying solely on the CR system is a bad idea in this case.

Finally, remember that CR assumes the PCs are fighting four encounters a day. If they're only fighting one encounter a day, you'll have to increase the CR significantly for it to pose a challenge.

Hope that helps.

- Saph

PinkysBrain
2007-04-29, 01:11 PM
Dragons are a bad example because they're more like a PC than a random monster; you're supposed to design and customise them.
If you use them at their standard CR and customize their treasure to give them armor / barding and optimized magic items expect TPKs.