Unorthodox Multiclass: Rogue/Paladin/Sorcerer

[Kalmero]

I know Multiclass in can be weird and suboptimal, but I'm trying to manage a somewhat unsupported character concept.

I want to be able to "Arcane Strike", so I basically need at least a 2-level Pally dip.

I want a healthy spell selection. Something on par with my melee, so Sorcerer seems synergetic.

I want to be a night blade character, so Rogue 3 delivers the Assassinate ability for that, as well as fun skills.


Before anyone says Bard, I'm not playing bard because I can't reflavor the music out, and that doesn't really work for me.

Basically my question is: would a Rogue 3/Paladin 2/Sorcerer X or some variant of that be horribly behind?

[SharkForce]

not that unorthodox. paladin 6/sorcerer X is a fairly common build i've seen suggested (the save bonus is just so freaking good).

i dunno that rogue adds much, but i doubt a 3 rogue splash will completely ruin everything.... once you get there.

in the meanwhile, your life may be a bit miserable while you wait for it all to come together unless you start off with the 6 levels of paladin, imo.

[Dontdestroyme]

Basically my question is: would a Rogue 3/Paladin 2/Sorcerer X or some variant of that be horribly behind?

This sounds cool to me. Were I you I would try and be a favored soul to get that sweet sweet extra attack but you may not need it. Otherwise you might wonder why you didn't solely go for a caster.

That or as suggested go paladin 6. Either way with a three way multiclass it's a long road. You'll probably want to get second attack asap so it's going to be mid to late game when it all comes together unfortunately.

On the plus side sorcerers get some nice front loading with four cantrips, rogues get some nice front loading with four skills and expertise, and paladin to two isn't tooooo significant of a dip. But if you start out rogue 1 sorc 1 paladin 2 when five rolls around you might be in trouble. Or maybe not idk.

[Malifice]

Basically my question is: would a Rogue 3/Paladin 2/Sorcerer X or some variant of that be horribly behind?

Congrats. You've stumbled upon one of the most OP builds in the game.

Paladin 2/ Assassin 3/ Bard (Valor) 9/ Sorcerer 2/ Fighter (EK) 4 is my current friend.

Variant human (for the feat - you'll need it) take GWM. Pack a great-sword.

Armor + weapons (all)
Skills: 9 + expertise in 6 + half in others
Spells: 7th level slots, meta-magic, sorcery points
Offence: Divine smite, action surge, 2 fighting styles, extra attack, spells
Healing: cure spells, song of rest, lay on hands, second wind
Buffs: Inspiration, spells
Mobility: cunning action, action surge, spells

Melee damage (assuming surprise obtained and elemental weapon pre-cast):

Damage = 20d6+50d8+30d4+75. Add an extra 10d8 vs undead and outsiders.

Tons of utility with heaps of skills (and expertise) cunning action and spells.

[Chadamantium]

Could you break down that damage for me please? I not seeing it.

[Citan]

Hi!

Thoughts/suggestions on OP build proposition
I'm under the feeling it's very viable. :) I guess you planned on being Sorcerer instead of Bard / Warlock / Druid because...
- you prefer offensive spells (exit utility-monkey Bard);
- you want a nice number of spells slots for Smite (exit Warlock);
- you don't want to go MAD with multiclass *pun intended* (exit Druid).

Then it's indeed a very nice multiclass, especially if by "nightblade" you focused on "critical damage" aspect. Although you'll suffer a bit as noticed by other. I concur on going Paladin 6 for very nice aura and extra attack. This build is also very manageable in stats since you'll attack with dex, meaning 1. CHA, 2. DEX, 3. other (CON)
For Sorcerer origin I'd suggest...
Either Draconic Sorcerer (natural armor fits well with your sneaky bastard concept and gives nice CHA bonus to your affinity spells).
Or Favored Soul for free extra spells (as for the Domain, it's up to your gamestyle).
For Paladin Oath I'd suggest...
- Vengeance first: for CD (automatic advantage) and Hunter's Mark (extra damage on a foe, synergizes with SA). Fits the most in fluff and abilities.
- alternatively, Ancients for Ensnaring Strike, Moonbeam, Misty Step.
- Devotion can be nice for others with good attack bonus, but probably redundant here since you rely on surprise attacks (so advantage). Another big problem: your weapon shines, so a DM could easily rule that it automatically ruins the surprise.

So your classes would be Paladin 6 / Rogue 3 / Sorcerer 11 ? Could be useful to drop 1 lvl6 slot (11th Sorcerer) to get extra ASI/Feat with Rogue 4, since you focus on melee smiting.

Similar alternative builds
Could I nevertheless suggest two alternative build that could also fit your concept? Both WILL be LESS efficient in terms of min-maxing but can offer more diversity in combat and roleplay alike.
First: Divine Stealth Stun
Paladin 2 (at least, for Smite, maybe 3 for Oath of Vengeance)
Monk 6 (at least, for Armor, Movement, Ki abilities, Magical Fists) with either Shadow Way for cool fluff-related abilities (Pass Without Trace, Silence etc) or all-good Way of the Open Hand
Druid Grassland Circle (for "free" Invisibility).

Less nova and resistance (< spell slots/level, no +CHAmod to saving throws), and definitely less striker (no crit on surprise). But you become a very fun controller (Approach enemies like a ghost then "Stun them with your Smite"). Also more efficient in long fights than Assassin and more spell diversity.
So, less "Assassin" and more "Ghost thief". (Much) Less min-max but more roleplay versatility.
In any case, requires that Smiting with unarmed strikes is allowed (Not sure anymore since the errata).

Second: Nearly your build but WIS-based.
Paladin 6 (Aura etc, Vengeance for Hunter Mark)
Rogue 3 (Assassin etc): only for assassin ability.
Cleric 1 (War) OPTIONAL : bonus action attack, WIS-mod (only if you have high WIS) and additional spells (Bless, Healing Words) / cantrips (Guidance/Resistance, Sacred Flame).
Druid X (GrassLand for invisibility or Moon for WS, not sure Smite would be allowed as Wild Shape though).

Advantage: bonus "always prepared" spells and far more spell knowns = more variety. While keeping roughly same number of spell slots/levels.
Advantage: fun "Smite your Shape" if allowed.
Disadvantage: less direct offense spells (although Druid still has some nice direct offense spells such as Moonlight or Call Lightning and "utility spells" that can be OP in roleplay AND combat such as Conjure Animals or Polymorph). But you should be smiting most of the time anyways.
Disadvantage: more MAD because WIS (note: you could use Shilellagh to rely on WIS only but Sneak doesn't work on it. And you need high INIT anyways). But you can set STR and CHA to 13 only since you'll rely on DEX/WIS for everything.
(Note: Monk has more synergy than Rogue here especially with Unarmored being DEX+WIS).

Anyways... Have fun with your builds, enjoy your concept first (min-maxing can never best a good party anyways ^^).

[MrStabby]

Sorcerer paladin rogue is pretty viable I find and it has a lot of tricks - mainly involving smite. Assasinate and smite gets you a lot of damage quickly but you can still get that mid combat with a quickened hold person followed by attacks for more automatic criticals.

[Millface]

Sorcerer paladin rogue is pretty viable I find and it has a lot of tricks - mainly involving smite. Assasinate and smite gets you a lot of damage quickly but you can still get that mid combat with a quickened hold person followed by attacks for more automatic criticals.

Yup, you can even go totally HAM and upcast hold person to hit two targets, but you don't need assassin rogue for that.

You can play a character like a nightblade without actually taking rogue levels, just describe him like that. Only going to 3 in a class is suboptimal because you miss out on an ASI by one level.

If your DM allows Favored Soul then Paladin 2/FS the rest is one of my favorites for offense. SO MANY SMITES. We're talking a quickened spell plus 2 smites every round, and lots and lots of slots with which to sustain it.

If you don't get favored soul then Pally 6/Sorc the rest is great. That 3 level dip in rogue makes me nervous, seems like a waste of spell slots and higher level spells known, all for 2d6 sneak and surprise crits... which happen much, much less than you'd think. I suppose Expertise is nice though. All in all, it wouldn't be bad, it would be very good, but it could be better if you nixed rogue.

Could you break down that damage for me please? I not seeing it.

Well, you'll get 3 attacks on a crit with GWM... So thats 6D6 + STR MOD x3, and 3 smites at 5D8. Elemental weapon adds 1d4, so that gets 3x too. Total is 6D6+15D8+3D4 doubled for crit. 12D6+30D8+6D4 with no sneak or Action surge. Add in action surge and you double that again, that's where he's getting his huge numbers.

This build likes 4 levels of fighter more than it does 3 levels of rogue.

[SharkForce]

i'd rather take paladin to 6 than go favoured soul/paladin 2 for a melee concept. stormborn provides some pretty nice abilities for a melee sorcerer, and paladin 6 gives you that amazing aura for your saving throws. +5 to all saving throws is hilariously strong.

[Millface]

i'd rather take paladin to 6 than go favoured soul/paladin 2 for a melee concept. stormborn provides some pretty nice abilities for a melee sorcerer, and paladin 6 gives you that amazing aura for your saving throws. +5 to all saving throws is hilariously strong.

Agreed, its a matter of offense vs. defense

More smites or better saves. At the end of the day you're probably right, because you're not doing any damage at all if you don't save from the nasty stuff.

Can I mention that Warcaster is a truly awesome feat? The ability to get a hold or bomb off as a reaction is just silly. Not to mention a caster with 20+ AC if you go dueling instead of GWM.

The build has a ton of potential variety in offense and defense, and how much of each you'd like to take.

[Malifice]

Could you break down that damage for me please? I not seeing it.

Let's assume half Orc.

Before the battle cast elemental weapon on your greataxe using your 7th level spell slot. It lasts for concentration (1 hour).

Approach your foe unseen (you have expertise in stealth and dark vision) to surpise them. Thanks to the assassinate ability, all your attacks against a surprised enemy are critical hits. Abjure the enemy first for advantage on your Attack rolls before initiating combat.

Move up to the surprised foe and attack, action surging as you do. You'll get 5 attacks (2 normal, 2 from action surge and 1 for your bonus action thanks to critical hitting your enemy). Use -5/+10 from GWM as you swing (with advantage, and +3 to hit from elemental weapon).

Each attack that lands is a critical hit. Expend your 4th and 5th level slots on smites as you land them.

Each attack deals 3d12 (weapon plus brutal critical) plus 10d8 (smites) plus 6d4 (elemental weapon) plus 15 (stengrh and GWM feat). Assuming 5 hits:

15d12 plus 50d8 plus 30d4 plus 75 damage. Re-roll 1s and 2s.

Having some friendly casters drop (haste, invisibility, elemental weapon) freeing you to have a smite spell up increases the damage considerably.

Take the savage attacker feat for the lols of reroling 20 percent of the above damage.

[Hawkstar]

Congrats. You've stumbled upon one of the most OP builds in the game.

Paladin 2/ Assassin 3/ Bard (Valor) 9/ Sorcerer 2/ Fighter (EK) 4 is my current friend.

Variant human (for the feat - you'll need it) take GWM. Pack a great-sword.

Armor + weapons (all)
Skills: 9 + expertise in 6 + half in others
Spells: 7th level slots, meta-magic, sorcery points
Offence: Divine smite, action surge, 2 fighting styles, extra attack, spells
Healing: cure spells, song of rest, lay on hands, second wind
Buffs: Inspiration, spells
Mobility: cunning action, action surge, spells

Melee damage (assuming surprise obtained and elemental weapon pre-cast):

Damage = 20d6+50d8+30d4+75. Add an extra 10d8 vs undead and outsiders.

Tons of utility with heaps of skills (and expertise) cunning action and spells.

Can you please break down the progression to get there? Or is this one of those "Only functions at 20" builds?

[Millface]

Can you please break down the progression to get there? Or is this one of those "Only functions at 20" builds?

That damage breakdown only works at high levels.

I believe it was paladin 2/rogue 4/valor bard 9/eldritch knight 4

I'd go Bard to 6 -> paladin to 2 -> Rogue to 4 -> Eldritch Knight to 4 -> Bard the rest

That would get your your ASI and extra attack by 6, then smites, then your other two ASIs before finishing Bard.

The build does most of its fun stuff by level 8 when you have 7 caster levels, smites, and two attacks.

You need Assassin 3, Paladin 2, some fighter to 2, as many 4th level spell slots as possible, and an extra attack from somewhere to make this damage combo work completely. You can do this with several configurations but the one listed above is one of the better ones for leveling.

[Malifice]

Can you please break down the progression to get there? Or is this one of those "Only functions at 20" builds?

I like Paladin to 2nd then Assasin for 3 more for your first 5 levels to get the core (stealth + smite) build up and running, then move to Bard till you hit 11th level for the extra spell slots (for smite), better skills and extra attack (11th is a long time to wait for extra attack, but with GWM and a possible bonus attack most rounds, and the high damage of GWM + smite, its a one hit tank till then anyways). Dip 2 levels of Fighter for Action surge. Back to Bard, then take your final 2 levels are Fighter (a feat is your capstone).

[Millface]

I like Paladin to 2nd then Assasin for 3 more for your first 5 levels to get the core (stealth + smite) build up and running, then move to Bard till you hit 11th level for the extra spell slots (for smite), better skills and extra attack (11th is a long time to wait for extra attack, but with GWM and a possible bonus attack most rounds, and the high damage of GWM + smite, its a one hit tank till then anyways). Dip 2 levels of Fighter for Action surge. Back to Bard, then take your final 2 levels are Fighter (a feat is your capstone).

This doesn't give you your first ASI till 9... YMMV but... yuck. This build wants Strength, Dex, AND Charisma to be high.

Wouldn't Bard to 6 first give you a more solid foundation for adding the other classes? By your point in another thread if the DM is throwing out as many encounters as he/she should be you're going to run out of steam really, really fast.