Dealing with problem monsters in E6

[Mendicant]

How do you deal with "lolnope" monster abilities in E6 games? For story reasons, I'd like to be able to pit my players against a Night Hag and a Nabasu (seperately, of course), as two of the most powerful big bads in the campaign. I'm wondering about the best way to put these monsters within reach of the party, outside of just sandbagging them and not using powerful abilities. On paper, a party of seven 6th-level PC's is supposedly able to take on an EL 8 or EL 9 encounter, but, realistically, there's really no way a party can fight either without 4th-level spells at a minimum. Night hags are especially notorious for not plugging into the CR system very well even when you aren't capped at 3rd-level spells. I'm not above dramatically depowering them, but I'd like to cut away as little as possible in order to preserve what makes each monster interesting.

For reference, I'm playing Pathfinder, with a party of 7 players, all mostly mid to low op and heavily melee oriented: a bard, twf rogue, two-handed fighter, magus, twf ranger, archer paladin and feral mutagen alchemist. The only one who shows a really decent amount of system mastery is the player of the magus, which means that even the other mid-op characters (who he largely built) can't be relied on to be played mid op. Baseline issues like getting past DR/Cold Iron and Magic and dealing with flight are already handled. I'm mainly concerned with Greater Teleport/Etherealness here--all the other nasty tricks these two have can overwhelmed by the action economy advantage a big party has.

[Lord Vukodlak]

On paper, a party of seven 6th-level PC's is supposedly able to take on an EL 8 or EL 9 encounter, but, realistically, there's really no way a party can fight either without 4th-level spells at a minimum.
Are you kidding me? Of course they can, if its a single creature making up that EL 8 or 9 then they'll not only beat it but likely crush it due to action economy. Its not a lack of 4th level spells its armor class or DR that's going to be the determining factor against a night hag. There is nothing really terrifying about a Night Hag's abilities. If those seven PC's can get a hold of cold-iron weapons a head of time they should be able to crush it without much effort

My group of four level 6th PC's have killed a Nessian Hell-Hound along with three regular Hell-Hounds. If I hadn't included the three regular hell-hounds they probably would have crushed him too. Granted they're probably more optimized then your group but it was four instead of seven. They've also killed an Ogre Mage that was in full-plate.

The PC's act seven times a single creature acts once.

The Nabasu on the other hand is another matter, enervation can pretty much cripple a 6th level PC and with its teleportation it can stay at a distance until it runs out of spell-like abilities. Also its at will invisibility. You're party is lacking a cleric so no invisibility purge, so unless the magus has glitterdust it will certainly be a huge problem for even a even man band.

Also remember that a creature that's CR 6 or 8 in an E6 setting would rarely find it self threatened. They could easily be used to toying with folk which may give the PC's a couple easier rounds before they get serious. Just make sure the creature gloats that its toying with them. Makes wiping that smile off his face all the much better.

[Mendicant]

A night hag can become ethereal at will. No amount of action economy advantage is going to overcome that if you can't get to her. She doesn't even need dream haunting--she can just plink them to death with magic missiles.

That's what I'm talking about with lolnope abilities--normal considerations don't apply because the enemy has defensive and mobility capabilities that people without, say, dimensional anchor can't handle.

[Bronk]

Well, I'd expect these E6 players would have to do some planning when taking on CR9 monsters. In this case, they could have a head's up because it might be targeting one or more of them in their dreams.

After some research, they could discover that the night hag can only use its etherealness power if it has its heartstone... They would have to figure out how to get that away from it. Theft, sundering, etcetera.

The other thing is that force effects originating on the material plane can affect the ethereal plane, but force effects on the ethereal can't affect the material, so the hag wouldn't be able to spam the players with magic missiles. If anything, it would be either a waiting game as it phases back and forth, or the hag could use it to escape. They might even get to affect it using the 'blink' spell.

[Darrin]

A night hag can become ethereal at will. No amount of action economy advantage is going to overcome that if you can't get to her.

Ghostwall Shellac (150 GP, Dungeonscape) would put the kibosh on the hag: everyone can have ghost touch weapons/armor. But that's assuming the party knows beforehand what they're up against and has time to prepare. Also, this specific example doesn't address your larger point: some encounters will be beyond the abilities of the PCs to deal with.

A few methods spring to mind:

1) Trial By Fire. There are two possible outcomes: the PCs think of a solution you didn't anticipate that's extremely clever, or they all die. This may be similar to the Empty Room Puzzle (http://www.criticalmiss.com/issue1/gmingwithnothing3.html), although that's more of a delaying tactic out of desperation rather than by accident or design. A TPK either ruins the campaign or forces you to massively fudge things beyond the scope of plausibility.

2) Heel-Face Turn (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeelFaceTurn). The Hag turns out to be working for the good guys. Either she had a change of heart (Helm of Opposite Alignment), she's been replaced by a doppelganger/shapechanger, or she's playing an angle/playing both sides/Xanatos gambit (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit).

3) An Unexpected Ally shows up, who knows the hag's weakness, or can provide something to the PCs that can help defeat her.

[Firest Kathon]

Ghostwall Shellac (150 GP, Dungeonscape) would put the kibosh on the hag: everyone can have ghost touch weapons/armor.
The equivalent Pathfinder item would be Ghost Salt (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances#TOC-Weapon-Blanch) Weapon Blanch, which annoyingly only lasts for one hit (but is quite efficient on ammunition).

[Lord Vukodlak]

A night hag can become ethereal at will. No amount of action economy advantage is going to overcome that if you can't get to her. She doesn't even need dream haunting--she can just plink them to death with magic missiles.

That's what I'm talking about with lolnope abilities--normal considerations don't apply because the enemy has defensive and mobility capabilities that people without, say, dimensional anchor can't handle.

No she can't, look back at Ethereal Jaunt,
"Force effects and abjurations affect an ethereal creature normally. Their effects extend onto the Ethereal Plane from the Material Plane, but not vice versa." The higher level Etherealness doesn't change that fact.
Also using that spell requires the heartstone which is worn as a periapt, something the PC's could target with a sunder.

[Gwaednerth]

This is a great opportunity for Checkhov's gun. You leave some etherial creature whacking mojo in the loot for a seemingly random encounter. They walk around with it in their bags, and no idea what to do with it, when conveniently they're attacked by an etherial hag. Never overdo Checkhov's gun, but in small doses it's awesome.

[Seto]

This is a great opportunity for Checkhov's gun. You leave some etherial creature whacking mojo in the loot for a seemingly random encounter. They walk around with it in their bags, and no idea what to do with it, when conveniently they're attacked by an etherial hag. Never overdo Checkhov's gun, but in small doses it's awesome.

Sure, but in that case the players could well decide to just sell the loot and buy something else with the gold.

[torrasque666]

Sure, but in that case the players could well decide to just sell the loot and buy something else with the gold.
And then its their own damn fault.

[daremetoidareyo]

Homebrew a ritual for dealing with etherial things?

[Seto]

And then its their own damn fault.

Well, if they had reasons to think that they would fight ethereal creatures, sure. But personally, if I find some expensive situational weapon in a loot that I have reasons to think has been randomly determined, I don't consider it my fault if the DM expects me to still have it five levels later, and I don't.

All I'm saying is, yes Checkov's gun is nice and all, and yes players could have a better chance if they happen not to sell it. But don't count on it as the one way to vanquish the Hag, or else you might find your game coming to a grinding halt.

[Mendicant]

Well, if they had reasons to think that they would fight ethereal creatures, sure. But personally, if I find some expensive situational weapon in a loot that I have reasons to think has been randomly determined, I don't consider it my fault if the DM expects me to still have it five levels later, and I don't.

All I'm saying is, yes Checkov's gun is nice and all, and yes players could have a better chance if they happen not to sell it. But don't count on it as the one way to vanquish the Hag, or else you might find your game coming to a grinding halt.

Yeah, I'm pretty wary of a single item or contact or environmental hazard being "the" way to deal with a problem, especially if I'm also counting on them to figure it out on their own.


Homebrew a ritual for dealing with etherial things?
Yeah, this is probably what I'm going to go with. Probably give them some way to enter the Ethereal plane, which is more interesting as an encounter than taking away a signature ability.

[Calimehter]

My solution to this in E6 has always been to use the same restrictions for the monsters as I do for the PCs. That is, if PCs don't have access to 4th level spells (outside of incantations or rituals or other non-tactical methods) neither do the NPCs.

In your case, it would be replacing SLAs that replicate higher level spells with a similar SLA of 1st-3rd level. Swapping Etherealness with Blink (or even Displacement) for the hag, for instance.

[jiriku]

A CR 15 mature nabassu is way out of bounds for an E6 party, but you could easily provide a ritual or consecrated item that weakens the creature, reducing its stats to that of a CR 5 juvenile nabassu. If that's too easy, you could advance it up as high as CR 9, or CR 10 with the elite array -- that's a pretty decent encounter.

[atemu1234]

And then its their own damn fault.

If they knew they were going to need it, then maybe.