Sword cane/ Sword staff character idea

[RingofThorns]

Hello all and thanks for any help you might be able to give.

Due to recent events in my personal life I started to wonder if there was a weapon like a sword cane or a short staff/ walking stick that would conceal a hidden sword blade. I would also like to know if there would be an ideal class combo to work with this weapon choice.

[SowZ]

Hello all and thanks for any help you might be able to give.

Due to recent events in my personal life I started to wonder if there was a weapon like a sword cane or a short staff/ walking stick that would conceal a hidden sword blade. I would also like to know if there would be an ideal class combo to work with this weapon choice.

Most DMs would probably let you fluff a rapier like this. Just make the sword have a wooden handle and whittle out a hollow staff to hide the sword inside.

[(Un)Inspired]

pathfinder has a swordcane. Its pretty rad. They're kind of like the signature weapon of Investigators.

[Psyren]

You didn't specify a system, but Pathfinder has a swordcane (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/swordcane) with special rules for noticing it's a weapon - martial, one-handed, 1d6, piercing, x2 crit. Combine with Effortless Lace (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/effortless-lace) and you can treat it as a light weapon, letting you finesse it.

The ideal class for using it would be one that likes to attack its opponents flatfooted, e.g. one with sneak attack, or one that likes to study its opponents, e.g. one with death attack or studied strike.

[RingofThorns]

Ah sorry about the over sight it would more then likely be DnD 3.5 as the system.

[SowZ]

You didn't specify a system, but Pathfinder has a swordcane (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/swordcane) with special rules for noticing it's a weapon - martial, one-handed, 1d6, piercing, x2 crit. Combine with Effortless Lace (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/effortless-lace) and you can treat it as a light weapon, letting you finesse it.

The ideal class for using it would be one that likes to attack its opponents flatfooted, e.g. one with sneak attack, or one that likes to study its opponents, e.g. one with death attack or studied strike.

But wouldn't just a cane be a weapon that only does 1 less damage than the swordcane?

[Psyren]

There is probably a 3.5 swordcane in one of the Dragon Magazines as Paizo lifted many of their non-core weapons from their previous work. I couldn't begin to tell you which one though.

If no one can help you find it, I would suggest just porting back the PF one and replacing the Perception check with a Spot check.


But wouldn't just a cane be a weapon that only does 1 less damage than the swordcane?

An actual cane would be an improvised weapon I'm fairly sure, unless it was shod or something.

(Or maybe a hanbo?)

[SowZ]

There is probably a 3.5 swordcane in one of the Dragon Magazines as Paizo lifted many of their non-core weapons from their previous work. I couldn't begin to tell you which one though.

If no one can help you find it, I would suggest just porting back the PF one and replacing the Perception check with a Spot check.



An actual cane would be an improvised weapon I'm fairly sure, unless it was shod or something.

(Or maybe a hanbo?)

Huh. I don't really see why a staff is a real weapon but not a cane. A cane would be easy to wield, is a reasonable shape for a weapon, and is meant to be sturdy.

[Extra Anchovies]

Huh. I don't really see why a staff is a real weapon but not a cane. A cane would be easy to wield, is a reasonable shape for a weapon, and is meant to be sturdy.

Indeed. Also, there's such a thing as a Shillelagh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shillelagh_(club)) (no, not the druid spell), which is a walking stick that doubles as a club, and cane fighting (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canne_de_combat) is a French martial art.

...now I want to make a character who TWFs with a sword cane in one hand and a combat scabbard (the rest of the cane) in the other.

[ShurikVch]

Light Hammer, Light Pick, and Heavy Pick are kinda shaped like a cane, if you hold them by the head, and handle is long enough to reach ground

[Thurbane]

There is indeed a Swordcane (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070314a) for 3.5:

Martial Weapon - Swordcane; 60gp; 1d4 (small), 1d6 (medium), critical: 18-20, range increment: --, 3 lb., Piercing, Seach DC: 25

[Firest Kathon]

You didn't specify a system, but Pathfinder has a swordcane (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/swordcane) with special rules for noticing it's a weapon - martial, one-handed, 1d6, piercing, x2 crit. Combine with Effortless Lace (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/effortless-lace) and you can treat it as a light weapon, letting you finesse it.

You do not need an Effortless Lace for it, it can be used with Weapon Finesse anyways (see the link you posted):

You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a sword cane sized for you, even though it isn't a light weapon.

[Psyren]

There is indeed a Swordcane (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070314a) for 3.5:

Martial Weapon - Swordcane; 60gp; 1d4 (small), 1d6 (medium), critical: 18-20, range increment: --, 3 lb., Piercing, Seach DC: 25

Ah, neat. It's a little confusing though - it's described as a "rapier-hidden-in-a-cane" yet it's still on the one-handed weapons table. Which is it?


Huh. I don't really see why a staff is a real weapon but not a cane. A cane would be easy to wield, is a reasonable shape for a weapon, and is meant to be sturdy.

Because it's not on a weapons table - that's all. If it's not there it's improvised.

A frying pan is sturdy and easy to wield too, but it still counts as improvised :smalltongue:


You do not need an Effortless Lace for it, it can be used with Weapon Finesse anyways (see the link you posted):

Whoops :smallredface:

[ShurikVch]

Ah, neat. It's a little confusing though - it's described as a "rapier-hidden-in-a-cane" yet it's still on the one-handed weapons table. Which is it?Rapier is One-Handed Weapon in 3.5

[Psyren]

Rapier is One-Handed Weapon in 3.5

That's what I thought - but it appears to lack the PF line about being finessable regardless.

[Heikold]

You could also fill the cane with poisons so that it applies a dose whenever you draw the sword.

Just a thought in case you wanted to be a total badass.

I like poisons.

[ShurikVch]

That's what I thought - but it appears to lack the PF line about being finessable regardless.Rapier (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#rapier):
You can use the Weapon Finesse (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#weaponFinesse) feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a rapier sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon for you. You can’t wield a rapier in two hands in order to apply 1½ times your Strength bonus to damage.XYZ

[khadgar567]

You could also fill the cane with poisons so that it applies a dose whenever you draw the sword.

Just a thought in case you wanted to be a total badass.

I like poisons.
hello perfect candidate for iaijutsu focus with proper metal choice you can even fire wind blades

[Psyren]

Rapier (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#rapier):XYZ

Derp, and here I thought rapiers were actually just light weapons. Carry on, don't mind me :smalltongue:

I'm just going to sit in the corner and color. *gets crayons out*

[Flickerdart]

Hello all and thanks for any help you might be able to give.

Due to recent events in my personal life I started to wonder if there was a weapon like a sword cane or a short staff/ walking stick that would conceal a hidden sword blade. I would also like to know if there would be an ideal class combo to work with this weapon choice.
IRL, sword canes tend to be not very effective (due to construction constraints and low quality from being gimmicky) and are also probably illegal.

In the game, others have already mentioned the stats for the weapon. The best class to use them would be either a rogue/ninja/some other class with Sneak Attack or Sudden Strike, or a samurai/factotum/some other class able to take the Iaijutsu Focus skill found in Oriental Adventures. Spellcasters who like to fight in melee could also find it useful - a group of mage hunters cornering a wizard who walks with a cane would be surprised to find him capable of whooping their butts with his blade!

[RingofThorns]

I like the idea of using a rogue to play up the whole "please no I am a harmless guy with a cane" type of thing

[ShurikVch]

Ribbonweave (http://eberronunlimited.wikidot.com/ribbonweave)

[Socratov]

I like the idea of using a rogue to play up the whole "please no I am a harmless guy with a cane" type of thing

You really should study Terry Pratchett's discworld novels, especially those starring the silver horde.

As for using hte weapon itself, a rogue, swordsage or ijatsu focus build might do well. I can also imagine a DFI/snawflake wardance bard doing great with it in terms of style...

[RingofThorns]

I am thinking that certain feats would be good to, I imagine that something like quick draw would be very useful.

[RingofThorns]

Allright as an update I am moving foreward with making this character. Race is going to be a wood elf, I am needing help with feats though. I am also looking for ways to help hide the fact that the cane is a weapon, things like magic on the item, special materials etc.

[Darrin]

Allright as an update I am moving foreward with making this character. Race is going to be a wood elf, I am needing help with feats though.


I'm not sure we can help with feats if we don't know what classes you're taking. Could you give us a build outline?

Also, sourcebooks available? Dragon magazine yes/no?



I am also looking for ways to help hide the fact that the cane is a weapon, things like magic on the item, special materials etc.

Well, I think Nystul's magic aura is the only way to not "ping" as something magical with detect magic, but it's not a spell you can cast permanency on.

[Sian]

Shikomi-Zue from Oriental Adventures is a wooden/Bamboo staff which conceals a spear head ... Might be a reasonable starting point

Following the spirit of the search, instead of specificly looking for something like a cane (that is, looking for natually hidden weapons) turns up Blade Boots from Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting

[ShurikVch]

I am also looking for ways to help hide the fact that the cane is a weapon:smallconfused: Swordcane (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070314a) and Ribbonweave (http://eberronunlimited.wikidot.com/ribbonweave) are explicitly designed to not look like a weapon...

things like magic on the item, special materials etc.Glue a tin lead foil over it (should blocks a scrying spells)

[RingofThorns]

That is fair enough, I would say along with race of wood elf from dnd 3.5 I have most of the official books and many third party books as well. Listing them all would be a pretty big wall of text. The basic idea is something like a rogue with high dex, he will walk up or well limp up to people with his cane and more or less ideally he would pull off one of those draw, strike, sheath before they realize he has an actual sword.

[RingofThorns]

:smallconfused: Swordcane (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070314a) and Ribbonweave (http://eberronunlimited.wikidot.com/ribbonweave) are explicitly designed to not look like a weapon...
Glue a tin lead foil over it (should blocks a scrying spells)


I realize a sword cane is designed to not look like a weapon. However knowing. the group I run with when my character shows up with no weapons, they are all going to demans lots of rolls to see whats special about the cane/walking stick.

[DMVerdandi]

Oriental Adventures has the Shikomizue.
It is quarterstaff, but then you can draw out a blade and use it as a sword.

[D4rkh0rus]

The web enhancement swordcane is a crit x2 18-20 threat weapon. Know what that means? Yep. Crit fisher ahoy.

Improved critical, disciple of dispater (BoVD) with a an aptitude swordcane and lightning maces.

It's 3.0 but you might convince your DM.

While it doesn't do it in one shot, with a 9-20 crit range, you're assured quite a few crits, combine this with 3 levels in rogue (penetrating strike for the Sa immune), craven and those bracers that let you crit the crit Immune, and you're al out set. You just need a top hat of +6 charisma. Dapper.

[RingofThorns]

I love the top hat idea it made me chuckle. Though I already have him with more or less a hat like vampire hunter D.

[atemu1234]

There is probably a 3.5 swordcane in one of the Dragon Magazines as Paizo lifted many of their non-core weapons from their previous work. I couldn't begin to tell you which one though.

If no one can help you find it, I would suggest just porting back the PF one and replacing the Perception check with a Spot check.



An actual cane would be an improvised weapon I'm fairly sure, unless it was shod or something.

(Or maybe a hanbo?)

To the first, yes, though issue number eludes me. Something to do with hidden weapons, that could be applied to any weapon.

One of my players wanted to disguise his Huge Greataxe as a prostitute to take to a Ball. He showed me the article.

[Socratov]

The web enhancement swordcane is a crit x2 18-20 threat weapon. Know what that means? Yep. Crit fisher ahoy.

Improved critical, disciple of dispater (BoVD) with a an aptitude swordcane and lightning maces.

It's 3.0 but you might convince your DM.

While it doesn't do it in one shot, with a 9-20 crit range, you're assured quite a few crits, combine this with 3 levels in rogue (penetrating strike for the Sa immune), craven and those bracers that let you crit the crit Immune, and you're al out set. You just need a top hat of +6 charisma. Dapper.


I love the top hat idea it made me chuckle. Though I already have him with more or less a hat like vampire hunter D.

So, if you are going elf, go grey elf (for moar int), make him a factotum and basically be this guy (http://iceprimehalliwell.weebly.com/giovanni-zatara.html)...

Bonu spoints it you go into master of masks afterwards :smallamused:

[Jay R]

Huh. I don't really see why a staff is a real weapon but not a cane. A cane would be easy to wield, is a reasonable shape for a weapon, and is meant to be sturdy.

A staff is thicker and less likely to break.

Canes are meant to help steady you when you walk. That is not on the same level of sturdiness as needed to survive a heavy whack.

I currently own seven canes. Only two of them are sturdy enough to be used as a weapon. One of these I would classify as a shillelagh, and the other I had custom built. It's a hardwood shaft with a 1" steel d20 on the top.

The other five would likely break if I hit somebody over the head with them. (Of course, two of them have sword blades inside, and one has a dagger.)

[khadgar567]

A staff is thicker and less likely to break.

Canes are meant to help steady you when you walk. That is not on the same level of sturdiness as needed to survive a heavy whack.

I currently own seven canes. Only two of them are sturdy enough to be used as a weapon. One of these I would classify as a shillelagh, and the other I had custom built. It's a hardwood shaft with a 1" steel d20 on the top.

The other five would likely break if I hit somebody over the head with them. (Of course, two of them have sword blades inside, and one has a dagger.)
Small question can you use shillelagh one as wand and sword cane?

[Jay R]

Small question can you use shillelagh one as wand and sword cane?

I'm not sure what you mean by using it as a wand.

If I hollowed it out to make room for a sword blade, it would be much less sturdy. It's an excellent shillelagh now. I have no desire to ruin an excellent shillelagh to create a sword cane, since I already have two or those.

[khadgar567]

I'm not sure what you mean by using it as a wand.

If I hollowed it out to make room for a sword blade, it would be much less sturdy. It's an excellent shillelagh now. I have no desire to ruin an excellent shillelagh to create a sword cane, since I already have two or those.
not the real one buddy. what I mean is in 3.5 use it as wand ( the club portion as magic foci) and sword (cane in the handle part) since he creates wizard this makes it more easy to disguise( as his casting implement) and when they get close enough they got a surprise

[Jay R]

not the real one buddy. what I mean is in 3.5 use it as wand ( the club portion as magic foci) and sword (cane in the handle part) since he creates wizard this makes it more easy to disguise( as his casting implement) and when they get close enough they got a surprise

Oh. That's up to your DM. I see no inherent reason that a cane/scabbard couldn't be made into a wand, assuming that it was of masterwork quality.

I wouldn't use a shillelagh for it, though. If I'm trying to disguise a weapon, I wouldn't make it look like a weapon.

[RingofThorns]

well I dont know what a factotem is, what book is it in? I was figuring on a wood elf because of the dex bonus and go with rogue because of the sneak attack.

[Extra Anchovies]

well I dont know what a factotem is, what book is it in? I was figuring on a wood elf because of the dex bonus and go with rogue because of the sneak attack.

They're rogues, but they're worse at fighting, better at skills, and they get a few spell-like abilities that they can change up each day. A slight upgrade but there are a lot of issues with the class that need to be worked out before it's playable (like a standard-action ability that gives you a standard action). Everyone loves the class on this forum for some reason, but my play experience with it has shown it to be quite unimpressive.

[RingofThorns]

Lol so yeah more or less I should just stick with rogue then? any one know any really handy feats for a build like this?

[Yahzi]

Sword cane = rapier + Disguise skill

IRL, you don't want a sword cane, since it's just a crappy sword in a crappy half-staff. IRL you just use a good solid cane as a weapon. Musashi won half his duels with a wooden sword, after all.

[RingofThorns]

Musashi won a duel with a wooden weapon, that he carved out of a wooden oar.

[Jay R]

Musashi won a duel with a wooden weapon, that he carved out of a wooden oar.

Yes, he did. And people have talked about it, and marveled at it, for years.

We only know about this accomplishment because the deed was so incredible that only the greatest warrior in the world would even attempt it. This is not a model for a new character to emulate.

A cane can be a weapon. It does not equal a sword - as is shown by the fact that no ruler ever armed his army with canes, which are much cheaper than swords.

[Flickerdart]

A cane can be a weapon. It does not equal a sword - as is shown by the fact that no ruler ever armed his army with canes, which are much cheaper than swords.
No army except a certain red menace from the north.

https://36.media.tumblr.com/de1ab134c8cebf00086340c2767b5e04/tumblr_ngmrqdk12r1qm9hczo1_500.jpg

[ShurikVch]

A cane can be a weapon. It does not equal a sword - as is shown by the fact that no ruler ever armed his army with canes, which are much cheaper than swords.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/76/Indo-Persian_war_hammer.jpg/259px-Indo-Persian_war_hammer.jpg
(from the Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_hammer) article)

[Jay R]

Look - isn't this warhammer look kinda like a cane?

Yes, it sort of looks like a cane. But it would fight like a war hammer.

[Extra Anchovies]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Indo-Persian_war_hammer.jpg
(from the Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_hammer) article)

Yo, that image is way bigger than the forum rules allow (and spoilered images still load for everyone). If you could switch it to a link to the image, that would be great. If Jay could change his quote to do the same that would be great.

Regardless, yeah. That's a d8 of bludgeoning if I've ever seen one. It'll act like a warhammer regardless of how cane-like it may be shaped.

[ShurikVch]

Yo, that image is way bigger than the forum rules allow (and spoilered images still load for everyone).:smalleek: Sorry!
Now it's 259 × 768.
Is it OK?

[RingofThorns]

Yes I agree the whole plan for this is that my character fights with the cane sword as he doesnt fully need the cane. The whole thing with the cane is to make him look more harmless and less threatening.

[marphod]

The Factorum is an Int-based skill monkey/stealthy charactrer from Dungeonscape. The class schtick is that it able to emulate most of the class abilities of every core base class in DnD. They get a number of 'Inspiration Points" every encounter that power the factorum abilities (2@ 1st level, to 10 at 20th) -- powers include Int to Attack, Damage, or Saving throw rolls (1 point), Class level to skill checks (1 point), Int to AC as a dodge bonus for 1 opponent&1 round (1 point -- eventually always on and free), a die of sneak attack damage (1 point, one attack), ability to turn undead or spontaneously heal (1 point, max of 5+wis per day, at 20th), get an extra standard action (3 points, broken as it takes a standard action, RAW, to use), ignore a target's SR and DR for 1 round (2 points), once a day to avoid death/disablement from damage (4 points), and 3 times a day replicate any extraordinary (Ex) class ability (4 points).

They also get up to 8 spells from the wiz/sorc list (none with XP cost) per day (Maximum of 1 7th level and 7 6th level at 20th) as Spell Like Abilities, and their Int to Str and Dex-checks and skills based on those abilities, trapfinding, and all skills are class skills.

Factorums have amazing flexibility. Pick up the right feats to take advantage of them, pick your spells carefully, and pick your battles, and the class is amazing. Usually, the class is the Duct Tape of class choices -- It is never the number one choice for any specific task (even taping Ducts), but in the hands of a master, it is good at almost every task you can throw it at.

[marphod]

And I proceeded to lose my narrative thread.

Complete Scoundrel has a bunch of hidden/surprise weapons (CSc 109), including hiding blades in musical instruments, boots, elbows, and knees. None are specifically sword canes (which struck me as odd, as it seemed the right place for it), but some options and ideas.

[RingofThorns]

About the complete scoundrel yeah I looked through it and was surprised as well they had no sword canes. As for factotems the only thing I want from there is the ac bonus but for that I can dip into swashbuckler.

[Jay R]

And I proceeded to lose my narrative thread.

Complete Scoundrel has a bunch of hidden/surprise weapons (CSc 109), including hiding blades in musical instruments, boots, elbows, and knees. None are specifically sword canes (which struck me as odd, as it seemed the right place for it), but some options and ideas.

I've never seen a reference to a sword-cane in a society in which people routinely carry weapons openly. Sword-canes exists when most people are unarmed, and an armed person doesn't wish to call attention to his oddity.

Particularly in medieval and Renaissance Europe, in which carrying a sword was a status symbol, sword canes don't seem to have existed.

Since D&D is still (though less than originally) based on Europe of those periods), it's not that surprising that they didn't include one.

[marphod]

Since D&D is still (though less than originally) based on Europe of those periods), it's not that surprising that they didn't include one.

DnD was based on a middle-age Europe with East-Asian Monks, apparent access Arc Furnaces (with all the high-quality steel products even in low magic areas/games), and "New World" agricultural products as the mainstay of economies.

The setting is an amalgam of so many distinct semi-historical settings, that 'it isn't historical' is a poor argument as to why something is missing.

[Jay R]

DnD was based on a middle-age Europe with East-Asian Monks, apparent access Arc Furnaces (with all the high-quality steel products even in low magic areas/games), and "New World" agricultural products as the mainstay of economies.

East-Asian Monks weren't introduced until the second supplement, Blackmoor.

I'm not sure what arc furnaces or steel products not available by the 15th century you mean. The highest level steel products appeared to be plate armor and greatswords.

I also don't know what "New World" agricultural products you're referring to. The sum total of agricultural products mentioned at the beginning were


The setting is an amalgam of so many distinct semi-historical settings, that 'it isn't historical' is a poor argument as to why something is missing.

Nor was it the reason I gave. My specific reasons, which you cut out of my quote, were:

"I've never seen a reference to a sword-cane in a society in which people routinely carry weapons openly."

"Particularly in medieval and Renaissance Europe, in which carrying a sword was a status symbol, sword canes don't seem to have existed."

Your argument only makes sense if you ignore most of what I wrote and take one sentence out of context.

[RingofThorns]

Ok guys 1) complete scoundrel has blades hidden in boots, gloves, instuments, etc. that is why one hidden in a cane seems odd for not being there.
2) Getting off topic with the growing debate over irl sword canes and various attached matters.
3) I am looking for any useful feats to take for this rogue I am making, any thoughts?