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Fax Celestis
2007-04-28, 12:01 PM
This is an effort to combine Child Characters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40466) with The Complete Commoner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10278), two apparently disparate systems that can mutually benefit from each other.

The revised "Commoner" class is as follows:
{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special
1st | +0 | +0 | +0 | +0 | Infant
2nd | +0 | +0 | +0 | +0 | Child
3rd | +0 | +1 | +1 | +1 | Youth, Bonus Youth Feat, Apprentice
4th | +0 | +1 | +1 | +1 | Adult
5th | +0 | +1 | +1 | +1 | -
6th | +0 | +2 | +2 | +2 | -
7th | +0 | +2 | +2 | +2 | -
8th | +0 | +2 | +2 | +2 | -
9th | +0 | +3 | +3 | +3 | -
10th | +0 | +3 | +3 | +3 | -
[/table]

Hit Die: d4

Starting Gold: 5d4 gp.

Class Skills (4 + Int, x2 at first level): Appraise, Bluff, Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (Local), Profession

Proficiencies: A youth or older commoner is proficient with the dagger and club, and no kinds of armor.

Infant: A first level commoner (an infant) is two categories smaller than an adult of the same race. In addition, an infant commoner rolls only 1d6 for all attributes, and suffers a -3 penalty to all mental ability scores (to a minimum of 1).

Child: A second level commoner (a child) is one category smaller than adult. In addition, a child commoner adds a second d6 to each ability score. The penalty to mental ability scores reduces to -2 (minimum 1).

Youth: A third level commoner (a youth) is the same size category as an adult. In addition, a youth commoner adds a third d6 to each ability score. The penalty to mental ability scores reduces to -1.

Bonus Youth Feat: A third level commoner selects a bonus youth feat of their choosing.

Apprentice: At third level, a commoner chooses a profession for which they will work in for the rest of their lives. For all Profession skill checks that involve the commoner's profession of choice, they receive an insight bonus equal to half their class level.

Adult: At fourth level, an adult commoner (an adult) adds a fourth d6 to all ability scores and drops the lowest roll for each attribute. The penalty to mental abilty scores is removed, and the commoner may now select class levels or advance in a Job Class.

Special: Levels 1 through 4 of the commoner class (or of the noble class, depending on background) are required for all characters and do not count towards LA, ECL, or CR.

Well, it's a start. What else can we do?

Lord Iames Osari
2007-04-28, 12:44 PM
Well, we'll need to get rid of the Youth feats related to the expert, warrior, aristocrat, and adept classes. That's easy, though.

Korias
2007-05-02, 08:47 PM
Yeah. That really does make sense, and we can just direct those over here.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-05-03, 09:25 AM
Arcane Talent [Youth] (formerly "Magic in the Blood")
you seemed different from the other younglings of your birthplace. you seemed to be able to make small things move just by pointing at them.
Benefit: You know 2 cantrips from the sorcerer/wizard list of your choice. You may cast these 3 times a day. The save DCs are Charisma-based, and your caster level is 1st.

You gain 2 + Int mod skill points, which you may assign as if the following skills were class skills: Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
Special: If your first class level is in the sorcerer class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat. you gain other benefits of the sorcerer class when you take 1st level in sorcerer.

Demonic Gift [Youth]
You were born with bizzare eldrich power, and were able to channel the unholy energy at a young age.
Benefit: You may use an eldritch blast a number of times per day equal to your charisma modifier. The blast is the same as the warlock class feature in every way except that it causes 1d4 nonlethal damage.

You gain 2 + Int mod skill points, which you may assign as if the following skills were class skills: Bluff, Concentration, Disguise, Intimidate, Jump, and Sense Motive.
Special: If your first class level is in the warlock class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat.

Destined [Youth]
The plan the gods have for you is a mystery, but it is there. Your luck, whatever it is, seems to be higher than normal.
Benefit: Your base saves are +1/+1/+1.

You gain 2 + Int mod skill points, which you may assign as if the following skills were class skills: Climb (Str), Jump (Str), Sense Motive (Wis), Bluff (Cha), Listen (Wis), Spot (Wis).
Special: If your first level is in favored soul, this feat is subsided into that particular class and you may pick your first level feat as normal. If not, then this becomes your first level feat.

Draconic Devotion [Youth]
You have shown devotion to a particular kind of Dragon, and have gained a unique power through that devotion.
Benefit: You know one draconic aura. You can project it at a +1 bonus. You may use this ability once per day, and it lasts a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier + 3.

You gain 2 + Int mod skill points, which you may assign as if the following skills were class skills: Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (nature) (Int), and Search (Int), plus others depending on your totem dragon.
Special: When you take this feat, you must choose a totem dragon form the list of true dragons. If your first level is in the dragon shaman class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat.

Elemental Upbringing [Youth]
You are more in tune with the elements when you were six than most are their whole lives.
Benefit: You know 2 orisons drawn from the shugenja spell list, which are usable a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum 1 spell per day). You may also use the sense elements class ability the same way a shugenja does, except any spellcraft check you make with respect to the ability is at a -5 penalty.

You gain 4 + Int mod skill points, which you may assign as if the following skills were class skills: Concentration, Heal, Diplomacy, Knowledge (arcane, and one other of your choice), and Spellcraft.
Special: If your first class level is in the shugenja class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat.

Esper Talent [Psionic, Youth]
You possess some psionic ability.
Benefit: You know 1 1st-level power of your choice and have 2 power points. If you choose a discipline power, the save DC of your power (if applicable) is based on Intelligence; if you choose your power from the general psion/wilder list, the save DC is based on Charisma, and if you choose a psychic warrior power, the save DC is based on Wisdom. You can manifest the power granted by this feat even if your Int, Wis, or Cha would normally be too low to manifest powers. Your manifester level is 1st.

If you chose a discipline power, you gain 2 + Int mod skill points, which you may assign as if the following skills were class skills: [psion class skill list here, including discipline skills].

If you chose a general psion/wilder power, you gain 4 + Int mod skill points, which you may assign as if the following skills were class skills: [wilder class skill list here].

If you chose a psychic warrior power, you gain 2 + Int mod skill points, which you may assign as if the following skills were class skills: [psychic warrior class skill list here].
Special: If your first class level is in a manifesting class that uses the same key ability (where applicable) specializes in the same discipline as the power you chose for the feat, the benefits of this feat are subsumed by the first level of that class and you may choose a first level feat as normal. If you take your first class level in any other class, this becomes your first level feat.

Friend of the Beast [Youth]
Spending your time amidst the creatures of the woods has earned you respect amongst them. They know who you are, and respect you.
Benefit: You gain the benefit of an animal companion, whos HD may not exceed 1. You may teach it a total of 3 tricks + your wisdom modifier

You gain 2 + Int mod skill points, which you may assign as if the following skills were class skills: Handle Animal (Cha), Survival (Wis), Heal (Wis), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Spot (Wis).
Special: If your first class level is in the druid class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat.

Hunter [Youth]
You have learned to hunt down certain creatures, knowing how they think.
Benefit: You may select one kind of beast, magical beast, construct, animal, plant, or fey, as a favored enemy.

You gain 6 + Int mod skill points, which you may assign as if the following skills were class skills: [ranger list of class skills]
Special: If your first class level is in the Ranger class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat. You may change this favored enemy to a different one upon taking your 1st level in Ranger, but otherwise you cannot change this Favored Enemy.

Knife of the Mind [Psionic, Youth]
You possess the ability to produce a weaker version of the soulknife's mind blade.
Benefit: You gain the ability to produce a mind blade, as per the soulknife class ability, expect that your mind blade deals damage as a dagger sized appropriately for you.

You gain 4 + Int mod skill points, which you may assign as if the following skills were class skills: [soulknife class skill list here].
Special: If your first class level is in the soulknife class, the benefits of this feat are subsumed by the first level of that class and you may choose a first level feat as normal. If you take your first class level in any other class, this becomes your first level feat.

Manifesting Affinity [Youth]
You were born with a uncanny ability to create small items and sway the opinions of others with your mind.
Benefit: You know 2 first level psionic powers, and have a number of power points equal to your inteligence modifier -1, minimum one power point. Your effective manifesting level is that of a first level psion.

You gain 2 + Int mod skill points, which you may assign as if the following skills were class skills: Concentration, Knowledge (any two subjects of your choice), and Psicraft.
Special: If your first class level is in the psion class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat.

Musically Gifted [Youth]
You have shown an early affinity for music and performance, and a fascination with stories and lore. Your music moves other children and adults.
Benefit: You can fascinate (as the bardic musical ability) one creature per day, provided you have the requisite ranks in a Perform skill.

You gain 6 + Int mod skill points, which you may assign as if the following skills were class skills: Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Knowledge(Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha),Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of hand (Dex), Speak Language (n/a), Spellcraft (Int), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex) and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Special: If your first class level is in the bard class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat. You gain other benefits of the bard class when you take 1st level in bard.

Natural Cuisine [Youth]
You have a 6th sense when it comes to food of the wild.
Benefit: You may perfectly discern whether certain foods are edible, what plants are what, and if water is safe to drink or dangerous.

You gain 2 + Int mod skill points, which you may assign as if the following skills were class skills: Concentration (Con), Survival (Wis), Jump (Str), Hide (Dex), Spot (Wis), Listen (Wis).
Special: If your first class level is in the druid class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat.

Nature's Acolyte [Youth]
You spent your youth in the care of a druid circle or as a ranger's apprentice.
Benefit: You can improve the attitude of an animal. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check made to improve the attitude of a person. You roll 1d20 and add your Charisma modifier to determine the wild empathy check result. The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly.

To use this benefit, the youth and the animal must be able to study each other, which means that they must be within 30 feet of one another under normal conditions. Generally, influencing an animal in this way takes 1 minute but, as with influencing people, it might take more or less time. A youth cannot use this ability to influence a magical beast.

You gain 2 + Int mod skill points, which you may assign as if the following skills were class skills: Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Special: If your first class level is in the druid or ranger class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat.

Novice Mage [Youth]
You spent your youth in the study of arcane magic.
Benefit: You are given a spellbook with three cantrips (0-level wizard spells) scribed in it. You may prepare and cast one of these per day, as a wizard does, as long as you have an Intelligence score of 10 or higher. You may also prepare read magic from memory. You cannot scribe spells into the spellbook yourself. The save DCs for these spells are Intelligence-based, and your caster level is 1st.

You may use spell trigger and spell completion items as if you had a class spell list of all cantrips; you are not considered to be of a high enough level to use spell completion items safely, even if the spell is one you can prepare.

You gain 2 + Int mod skill points, which you may assign as if the following skills were class skills: Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually), Profession, and Spellcraft.
Special: If your first class level is in the wizard class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat. If you subsequently take a level in the wizard class, you retain the ability to prepare one of your three original cantrips each day, in addition to the spells per day granted by the wizard class; you may otherwise use the spellbook bestowed upon taking this feat as your normal wizard spellbook.

Squire [Youth]
You had a dream or other divine visitation, and you have begun your training as a holy warrior.
Prerequisites: Lawful Good.
Benefit: You gain proficiency with shields and one martial weapon of your choice. You can now detect evil a number of times/day equal to your CHA modifier (minimum once per day).

You gain 2 + Int mod skill points, which you may assign as if the following skills were class skills: Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nobility) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Ride (Dex), and Profession (Wis).
Special: If your first class level is in the paladin class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat. You gain other benefits of the paladin class when you take 1st level in paladin.

Tae Kwon Disciple (Defensive) [Youth]
Your body is a temple. You have learned from the monastic teachings to keep it at tip top condition, learning to percive your enemies blows before they strike.
Prerequisites: Wisdom 12
Benefit: You may add your Wisdom Modifier to AC.

You gain 4 + Int mod skill points, which you may assign as if the following skills were class skills: Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Hide (Dex), Listen (Dex), Escape Artist (Dex), and Jump (Str).
Special: If your first class level is in the monk class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat.

Tae-Kwon Disciple (Offensive) [Youth]
You have learned from the monastic teachings and begun to train your body to become your weapon.
Benefit: You may deal 1d6 damage with your unarmed strikes for nonlethal damage, or 1d3 points of lethal damage. This must be decided before you make the attack roll.

You gain 4 + Int mod skill points, which you may assign as if the following skills were class skills: Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Hide (Dex), Listen (Dex), Escape Artist (Dex), and Jump (Str).
Special: If your first class level is in the monk class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat.

Temple Education [Youth]
You were educated in the ways of the priesthood as a youth, grooming you for the clerical life.
Benefit: You learn a number of orisons (0-level cleric spells) equal to your base Wisdom modifier in your youth. You may prepare and cast one of these per day, as a cleric does, as long as you have a Wisdom of 10 or higher. The save DCs are Wisdom-based, and your caster level is 1st.

You gain 2 + Int mod skill points, which you may assign as if the following skills were class skills: Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes), Profession, and Spellcraft. If you are tutored by clerics with the Animal, Plant, Knowledge, Travel or Trickery domains, you may add the skills specified by these domains to this list.
Special: If your first class level is in the cleric class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat.

Touched [Youth]
You have been touched with divine power, and are able to manifest that power.
Benefit: Choose 2 level 0-level spells from the adept spell list. You are able to cast those spells that 3/day, as the adept. Your caster level is 1st.

You gain 2 + Int mod skill points, which you may assign as if the following skills were class skills: Concentate (Con), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (Int), Profession (Wis), Survival (Wis).
Special: If your first level is in the adept class, this feat is subsided into that particular class and you may pick your first level feat as normal. If not, then this becomes your first level feat.

Urchin [Youth]
A childhood tendency towards larceny has trained your body and your mind and allowed you to hit hard when your opponent is distracted.
Benefit: You gain proficiency with two simple or martial weapons. These weapons must be drawn from the Rogue weapons list. When your target in combat is flanked, you gain the ability to sneak attack them for an additional 1d4 damage.

You gain 8 + Int mod skill points, which you may assign as if the following skills were class skills: Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).
Special: If your first class level is in the rogue class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat.

Weapons Training [Youth]
You have an aptitude towards certain weapons and are being trained by your towns weaponsmaster
Benefit: You are automatically proficient in simple weapons. Choose 4 martial weapons; you are considered proficient in their use.

You gain 2 + Int mod skill points, which you may assign as if the following skills were class skills: Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str).
Special: If your first class level is in the fighter, barbarian or paladin classes, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat. you gain the rest of the weapon proficiencies when you take your first level of fighter.

Wild Upbringing [Youth]
You spent your youth on the wild frontier, learning to tap your animal instincts to survive.
Benefit: Once per day, you can rage, as the barbarian class feature, except that the benefits are +2 to Strength, +2 to Constitution, and +1 morale bonus to Will saves.
You gain 2 + Int mod skill points, which you may assign as if the following skills were class skills: Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Ride, Survival, and Swim.
Special: If your first class level is in the barbarian class, that level subsumes the benefit of this feat and you may pick a first-level feat normally. If you choose any other class, this feat becomes your first-level feat.
[hr]
These still need a bit of work to fit better Fax's stuff - most notably in relation to the skill points.

Machete
2007-05-09, 08:07 PM
"Child: A second level commoner (a child) is one category smaller than adult. In addition, a child commoner adds a second d6 to each ability score. The penalty to mental ability scores reduces to -2 (minimum 1)."

I believe the minimum mental scores should be 2 or 3 at this stage. Jus a suggestion.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-10, 09:51 AM
"Child: A second level commoner (a child) is one category smaller than adult. In addition, a child commoner adds a second d6 to each ability score. The penalty to mental ability scores reduces to -2 (minimum 1)."

I believe the minimum mental scores should be 2 or 3 at this stage. Jus a suggestion.
Maybe. I'm saying Minimum 1 because of races with INT penalties.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-05-10, 10:29 AM
But remember, Fax, an Intelligence of 3 is the minimum required for speech, and by 6, I think kids should be talking unless there's something really wrong with them.

Latronis
2007-05-10, 10:36 AM
wow someone actually did up rules for child characters?

the few times it's come up i've just had them set points as an adult and subtract 2 from physical scores and 3 from mental scores, that they get back with racial abilities as they hit adult.


But remember, Fax, an Intelligence of 3 is the minimum required for speech, and by 6, I think kids should be talking unless there's something really wrong with them.

Though it also stands to reason that children of races with an intelligence penalty such as half-orcs would develop slower

DracoDei
2007-05-10, 04:48 PM
Something to make sure you consider is the applicability of this to monstrous characters... I once had my party (Neutral Good on average) adopt a young displacer beast (red dragon had it caged to keep its mom defending it, party killed mom and dragon). Had some NPCs in the party try to bring it up right... actually brought it in later (assumed it had grown up pretty quick) as a PC when one of the characters got killed.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-10, 05:03 PM
Something to make sure you consider is the applicability of this to monstrous characters... I once had my party (Neutral Good on average) adopt a young displacer beast (red dragon had it caged to keep its mom defending it, party killed mom and dragon). Had some NPCs in the party try to bring it up right... actually brought it in later (assumed it had grown up pretty quick) as a PC when one of the characters got killed.

I don't know about the Child side, but the Complete Commoner side of things already accounts for races with different aging rates (including monstrous characters).

Lord Iames Osari
2007-05-10, 05:07 PM
wow someone actually did up rules for child characters?

the few times it's come up i've just had them set points as an adult and subtract 2 from physical scores and 3 from mental scores, that they get back with racial abilities as they hit adult.



Though it also stands to reason that children of races with an intelligence penalty such as half-orcs would develop slower

One problem with that: Half-orcs, according to the aging tables in the PHB, actually mature faster than humans.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-22, 05:53 PM
They may mature more quickly physically, sure, but races with Int penalties probably don't mature as quickly mentally.

belboz
2007-05-22, 10:32 PM
I like this idea...my only question is about Dex. Is 12 really a maximum Dex for a human child? What about all those Olympic gymnasts who started training at 3 or whatever? I don't think that's all skill ranks.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-05-23, 01:17 PM
Sure, they started training at 3... but do they compete when they're 3? No.

So, as they mature, they increase both their level of training (skill ranks) and their natural talents (ability scores and modifiers).

belboz
2007-05-23, 11:43 PM
Sure, they started training at 3... but do they compete when they're 3? No.
No. But they do compete (at sub-olympic, but still pretty high levels) at 9.

And kids just plain have little hands. You can do a lot with little hands.


So, as they mature, they increase both their level of training (skill ranks) and their natural talents (ability scores and modifiers).

But they only get a serious ability score increase when they hit adolescence. That doesn't sound right to me--for this one ability only.