[3.5 only] Metamagic and Sontaneous Casters.... How does it work?

[Malak'ai]

Hey there Playground.

This might sound like a bit of a no brainer, but I've never actually made an MM weilding Spontaneous Caster before.

Now I know MM usually ups the slot the spell is preped in, but since a SponCast character obviously prep spells am I right in assuming you still need to use a slot equal to what it would have been if prepped? eg: An Empowered Fireball would still have to be cast from a 5th level slot?

Or am I completely wrong about this? I have heard of using extra slots or increasing the casting time of a MM'd spell, but what is the actual rule about it?

Thank you,
Mal.

[heavyfuel]

You aplly the MM when cansting the spell. The spell than uses the spell slot higher than the original (still magic missile uses a lv2 slot for example)

The casting time of the spell also is heightens


Casting a 1-action metamagic spell spontaneously is a full-round action, and a spell with a longer casting time takes an extra full-round action to cast.

[Flickerdart]

Now I know MM usually ups the slot the spell is preped in, but since a SponCast character obviously prep spells am I right in assuming you still need to use a slot equal to what it would have been if prepped? eg: An Empowered Fireball would still have to be cast from a 5th level slot?
That is correct. For a 10th level sorcerer, empowered fireball is just as much of a 5th spell as teleport would be.


Or am I completely wrong about this? I have heard of using extra slots or increasing the casting time of a MM'd spell, but what is the actual rule about it?
It's not an "or." A spontaneous caster applying metamagic to a spell increases that spell's casting time to a full round action, if that spell's casting time was less than that, in addition to using a higher level slot. Note that full round and 1 round are not the same thing - a full round casting time spell takes effect on your turn, and a 1 round casting time spell (such as summon monster) takes effect at the start of your next turn.

[nedz]

If you are a sorcerer, yes - there are other types of spontaneous casters, then you should consider the Metamagic Specialist ACF (PHB 2, p 61). It costs you your familiar but you can avoid the casting time increase (3 + Int bonus) times per day.

[Extra Anchovies]

The casting time of the spell also is heightens

It only does that if you let Monte Cook's irrational hatred of the Sorcerer influence your game. There's no reason for sorcerers to have a slower casting progression or increased cast times with metamagic, because despite what the developers thought, prepared casting is much stronger than spontaneous casting. I honestly don't know how they could have gotten the opposite conclusion, but they did.

[Flickerdart]

It only does that if you let Monte Cook's irrational hatred of the Sorcerer the rules influence your game. There's no reason for sorcerers to have a slower casting progression or increased cast times with metamagic, because despite what the developers thought, prepared casting is much stronger than spontaneous casting. I honestly don't know how they could have gotten the opposite conclusion, but they did.
You can feel free to houserule it however you want, but the motivation behind a printed rule in no way reduces its authority as a printed rule.

[Psyren]

That is correct. For a 10th level sorcerer, empowered fireball is just as much of a 5th spell as teleport would be.

Almost - remember, it would still have the save DC of a 3rd-level spell, not a 5th-level spell.

[Urpriest]

Almost - remember, it would still have the save DC of a 3rd-level spell, not a 5th-level spell.

Plus its interaction with globes of invulnerability and the like.

Really, it's safer to say that it's a 3rd level spell that occupies a 5th level slot.

[Flickerdart]

Almost - remember, it would still have the save DC of a 3rd-level spell, not a 5th-level spell.
Technically, "for the sorcerer" doesn't include DC - it's the sorcerer's enemies, not the sorcerer himself, that would be concerned about that! :smallamused:

[Talar]

Almost - remember, it would still have the save DC of a 3rd-level spell, not a 5th-level spell.

Could you provide a cite for this? Cause this seems illogical to me, of course my understading of the rules leaves much to be desired oftentimes. How I would think about is that the spell is now fifth level with the MM tacked on so therefore the DC should be calculated as such.

Also would there be any dire consequences if one was to handwave the heightened casting time when spontaeous casters used MM? Cause it does seem a bit asinine.

[torrasque666]

Could you provide a cite for this? Cause this seems illogical to me, of course my understading of the rules leaves much to be desired oftentimes. How I would think about is that the spell is now fifth level with the MM tacked on so therefore the DC should be calculated as such.

Also would there be any dire consequences if one was to handwave the heightened casting time when spontaeous casters used MM? Cause it does seem a bit asinine.
Look at Heighten Spell.
A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

Any other metamagic spell just says that it uses a slot of a higher level, as per the metamagic feat rules:
Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.

[Malak'ai]

It's not an "or." A spontaneous caster applying metamagic to a spell increases that spell's casting time to a full round action, if that spell's casting time was less than that, in addition to using a higher level slot. Note that full round and 1 round are not the same thing - a full round casting time spell takes effect on your turn, and a 1 round casting time spell (such as summon monster) takes effect at the start of your next turn.

What I was meaning was that I've read somewhere that you can sacrafice additional spell slots to mitigate the needing to use a higher slot eg: using 3 third level slots to cast an Empowered Fireball.

[Flickerdart]

What I was meaning was that I've read somewhere that you can sacrafice additional spell slots to mitigate the needing to use a higher slot eg: using 3 third level slots to cast an Empowered Fireball.
No, you can't do that.

There is a feat called Verastile Spellcaster that lets spontaneous casters use up two slots of level X to cast a spell of level X+1, but it can't be stacked (so you couldn't use four spells of level X to cast a spell of level X+2, for instance).

[Talar]

Thank you, Torrasque666. I never noticed that phrase before.

[Evenell]

Just checking to see if I understand correctly. If you are a level 5 Wizard and you want to raise the DC of your silent image spell, you could use Heighten Spell to prepare it as a 3rd level spell to raise the DC by 2, correct? Would this work with most illusion spells? (Specifically, those that creatures have to interact with to get a save)

[nedz]

Just checking to see if I understand correctly. If you are a level 5 Wizard and you want to raise the DC of your silent image spell, you could use Heighten Spell to prepare it as a 3rd level spell to raise the DC by 2, correct? Would this work with most illusion spells? (Specifically, those that creatures have to interact with to get a save)

Yes

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