What would you do with Wall of Force?

[charlesk]

This spell is arguably broken in that it has only a tiny handful of counters, all of which are magic-oriented. In an encounter last night we were able to neutralize an adult dragon for nearly an entire encounter with just this one spell.

In some ways it epitomizes the gap between magic-using and martial characters. A simple level 2 Misty Step and you are out, but a level 20 barbarian is cooling his heels for 10 minutes.

Yes, I realize there is the option of breaking the caster's concentration, but that is often not that hard to work around.

One suggestion we had was to make the wall have a hardness and HP like other walls. These would need to be very high, but not infinite, so a dragon (for example) trapped in there with nothing to do could escape within a few rounds. However, this sort of goes against the idea of force being something intangible that can't be damaged.

One idea would be to make it subject to Dispel Magic, but that might be going too far the other way.

Other thoughts? Thanks.

[Yagyujubei]

I'd say giving it a high HP is probably the way to go. the whole point of the thing is that it can't be dispelled so making it so would be a bit of an overnerf imho.

I say giving it HP, and resistance to physical damage to break it. HP dependent upon the spell slot you cast it in, and scaled around the idea that for normal medium NPCs is should be nigh unbreakable, but for much more powerful monsters they could get out in maybe 2 or 3 rounds. that's still plenty of value out of the spell if you ask me...maybe like 150+25 for each level higher you cast.

[Shining Wrath]

HP scaling with slot level and damage reduction against most damage types sounds right. Maybe it absorbs force damage and repairs itself.

Damage reduction so that you can't get out spamming cantrips as a level 1 sorcerer or warlock. For a low-level character this still ought to be an impossible problem. For powerful creatures, even if they can't cast spells, the iconic "The wall is failing!" scene needs to be on the table.

https://youtu.be/IYFr3UyVpRA

[Kryx]

5e uses damage threshold for ships (see DMG). I'd recommend using that with your HP system.

If you can codify the numbers I'd happily use it as a fix.

[pwykersotz]

5e uses damage threshold for ships (see DMG). I'd recommend using that with your HP system.

If you can codify the numbers I'd happily use it as a fix.

I never even noticed that before now...

That's a great mechanic for a good many things that shouldn't take plinking damage but still need viable HP. Thank you for pointing it out. :smallsmile:

[charlesk]

Great idea.

My suggestion is an AC of 15 with 300 HP, a damage threshold of 15, resistance to non-magical weapons, and immunity to all magical/elemental damage forms. If cast at a higher level, the AC increases by 1, HP by 30 and threshold by 2 per level.

The immunity to magical damage is because there are already many ways for casters to deal with this, but might be a bit too harsh. I like the idea of something that requires either elegance from a caster or a lot of brute force otherwise.. not something a caster can just wear away with low-level spells.

[pwykersotz]

Great idea.

My suggestion is an AC of 15 with 300 HP, a damage threshold of 15, resistance to non-magical weapons, and immunity to all magical/elemental damage forms. If cast at a higher level, the AC increases by 1, HP by 30 and threshold by 2 per level.

The immunity to magical damage is because there are already many ways for casters to deal with this, but might be a bit too harsh. I like the idea of something that requires either elegance from a caster or a lot of brute force otherwise.. not something a caster can just wear away with low-level spells.

I'd give it 200 hp with the damage threshold and no resistance or immunity except to force. 200 is the HP value of a 9-10 CR, less 1 because the AC is below that value. It also still takes quite a lot of time to get through.

I agree with the increase listed, 30 hp per spell level is the sweet spot, and the AC bump is a little high, but it's not overmuch. The threshold by 2 per level means it maxes at 19, which again, should be fine.

Edit, I am dumb. The threshold maxes at 23, which I think is too high. Make it bump by 1 per spell level.

[Knaight]

I'd take a page out of REIGN's smokestuff. It's nigh invulnerable, but it also has essentially no mass. If you have it positioned somewhere that was likely prepared ahead of time you'll be able to brace it pretty well. Otherwise, there are a whole bunch of situations where it could be pulled out, or knocked over, or lifted up and thrown, or just generally nullified that way. In the right situation it's amazing, but it becomes situational.

[Person_Man]

This spell is arguably broken in that it has only a tiny handful of counters, all of which are magic-oriented. In an encounter last night we were able to neutralize an adult dragon for nearly an entire encounter with just this one spell.

FYI, using particular spells to resolve or auto-defeat particular encounters were a common aspect of mid-high level gameplay in 1E, 2E, 3E, Pathfinder, and the various half editions. And many people did not consider it "broken." Instead, it was expected that each mid-high level spell slot could be used to basically solve/win certain types of encounters. The game was about how and when you chose to use them, not whether or not they automatically worked as intended. In 1E and 2E, this placed a very heavy emphasis on resource management, since you had to memorize specific spells (basically guessing what types of encounters you would face and how often you might face them), spell slots were much more limited, spells were time consuming and sometimes difficult to cast in combat, and had other drawbacks. In 3.X/PF is basically transformed the game into a high-fantasy myth/fairy tale, where the only thing that could really challenge you was other high level magic or the plot itself.

This is not to say that I personally like the Magic = Auto-Win mindset. I'm just saying that its a normal part of the mid-high level game, and if anyone doesn't like it, they should just stick to lower level games, or other game systems that don't feature such magic.

TLDR: Only 4E featured balanced high level tactical combat. 5E doesn't. That's probably by design.

[Kryx]

This is not to say that I personally like the Magic = Auto-Win mindset. I'm just saying that its a normal part of the mid-high level game, and if anyone doesn't like it, they should just stick to lower level games, or other game systems that don't feature such magic.
Or, instead, we could just remove/fix those "Magic = auto-win" spells like Wall of Force, Simulacrum, Wish, etc. The game then works perfectly fine.


I agree with 15 AC, 200 hp, a damage threshold of 15, and immunity to force, psychic, poison, and necrotic.

[MrConsideration]

Don't dragons cast as fairly high-level sorcerers? Surely it has a spell to counter this eventuality?

[pwykersotz]

Don't dragons cast as fairly high-level sorcerers? Surely it has a spell to counter this eventuality?

Not in this edition. There are variant dragons which cast [Cha mod] number of spells 1/day with a spell level of 1/3 their CR rounded down. But they don't have a suite of spells like in 3.5.

[Vogonjeltz]

This spell is arguably broken in that it has only a tiny handful of counters, all of which are magic-oriented. In an encounter last night we were able to neutralize an adult dragon for nearly an entire encounter with just this one spell.

In some ways it epitomizes the gap between magic-using and martial characters. A simple level 2 Misty Step and you are out, but a level 20 barbarian is cooling his heels for 10 minutes.

Yes, I realize there is the option of breaking the caster's concentration, but that is often not that hard to work around.

One suggestion we had was to make the wall have a hardness and HP like other walls. These would need to be very high, but not infinite, so a dragon (for example) trapped in there with nothing to do could escape within a few rounds. However, this sort of goes against the idea of force being something intangible that can't be damaged.

One idea would be to make it subject to Dispel Magic, but that might be going too far the other way.

Other thoughts? Thanks.

It doesn't do damage, at best it's an inconvenience.

How did you fit a dragon in a 10 foot radius thing? (or did you wall it off?)

I guess I'm just a little non-plussed by the whole thing.

[TheOOB]

What dragon backs itself in a corner? Unless you were underground it probably could have busted through another wall.

I'll agree high level spells can be kind of bonkers, but I that's part of the charm of D&D. 4e was good, but people complained that it didn't feel like D&D, so 5e they really wanted it to feel like D&D, which means spellcasters get silly at high levels. The difference now is that martial characters are pretty damn good at high levels now too.

In any case, if a player finds a good solution to a problem, let it work, and plan around it for the future.

[DragonLordIT]

In any case, if a player finds a good solution to a problem, let it work, and plan around it for the future.

This would be DM metagame thinking and it is wrong! :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:
In general I hate "absolute" solution spells like wall of force and tend to go around them like in this case, the hp+threshold is a good solution, but let your players know the rule change.

[charlesk]

Interesting that most people here found my suggestion too difficult to bring down. The mage in our group said she thought it would be too easy. Probably requires some gameplay to see what would work best in practice.

I don't get the "it's broke so don't fix it" mentality I suppose. When there are reasonable options for fixing it.

The dragon didn't back itself in a corner, I just cast it as a hemisphere. Later our mage cast it to block the dragon and minions when we had to retreat. They had no way to counter it.

And this isn't a high-level spell, it's level 5, that's available to level 9 characters.

[Logosloki]

I like the idea that the wall has a hardness and hitpoint value, or just a straight up ability check to break through it (strength or intelligence as in media it is common to see people just beat stick out of 'invulnerability' fields or break them using powah). Another idea would be to change the spell's volume by making it a cube rather than a sphere/hemisphere. This way the spell is great against large and below but doesn't affect huge and above.

That being said, there is a small list of spells that I would simply add to the DMG to avoid these sort of situations, wall of force is one of them. I think they are great spells for high magic games but there are some times as a DM that you don't want the extra headaches. If they were listed in the DMG then they are still available for the DM to make into scrolls (which can then be copied...).

[Shaofoo]

I am actually curious as to how did the battle unfold, and this is assuming that you can even fit an adult dragon inside the wall of force. I mean did the battle have some goal to get X object or go to X place and the dragon was supposed to stand in the way but with a simple spell he was indisposed until everyone got what they wanted and they left without much fanfare?

All it does is basically remove a creature (that isn't too big like an adult dragon) from the battle for a limited time, and you can't do anything to the creature while it is out and it still ties up the caster's concentration (which means no haste or fly or anything else).

I feel that before we try to "fix" the spell we actually first try to better learn the battle system.

While the dragon (if it can somehow fit in the sphere) is trapped just have him ready up an action that as soon as the wall of force is down he can immediately attack with a breath weapon against anyone in range, or cast a spell or do anything. Just cause the spell ends doesn't mean that the person is somehow in stasis and lost all actions. Remember that. Just have the trapped creature ready actions to attack as soon as the sphere is down.

Also it helps not to lopside the encounters so that the great majority of the power and difficulty is concentrated on one creature. You shouldn't just add creatures but also add ongoing spell effects and traps to add to the encounter difficulty. Also since it was an adult dragon was it in its lair? Did you use lair actions to keep the party on its toes?

[SharkForce]

splitting a fight into two smaller fights actually is a huge difference.

you are effectively doubling your action resources when you do so. so even if it "only" keeps the dragon out of the fight for 5 rounds while you mop up the minions, you've just made the fight a heck of a lot easier.

[charlesk]

Right. The dragon by itself we could handle. The minions by themselves we could handle. The combination was deadly.

The main reason you give something like a dragon minions is that they make the fight exponentially harder. If you can separate the fight into two phases, you've neutralized most of that combined difficulty.

[Ralanr]

I don't really have any new ideas to fix it (the hit points idea a magic immunity are my favorites). But I will say that this is one of those spells that I just want to abuse.

Like casting it into someone's open mouth, earhole or nostril.

If my DM kills my character then I wouldn't complain. If I'm kicked out of the group...then I wouldn't have done it in the first place because I would have asked beforehand

[Gurka]

I have an alternative. The Wall requires concentration to maintain, so make it targetable with attacks, but it doesn't actually take damage. Instead, whenever the wall is hit, the casting wizard has to maintain concentration as if he had taken the damage (though he doesn't actually take any damage). You can offer it either a Hardness or Resistance to certain damage types, etc.

To me, this makes for a much simpler option, as you don't have to track it's HP, and instead of summoning a big pile of HP that gets whittled down, you have the drama and competition of the caster vs whatever he's trying to keep in/out beating on it. Much more cinematic.

I'm definitely going to try this next time it comes up. I'll let you know how it works (assuming I remember).

[Shaofoo]

Right. The dragon by itself we could handle. The minions by themselves we could handle. The combination was deadly.

The main reason you give something like a dragon minions is that they make the fight exponentially harder. If you can separate the fight into two phases, you've neutralized most of that combined difficulty.

Still doesn't explain how could you even trap the dragon in the first place since adult dragons take space on a 15 x 15 feet area and Wall of Force encapsulates on a 10 x 10 feet area and by RAW the dragon should be pushed away from the wall as soon as it appears.

Also if the minions saw the wizard encapsulate their master they didn't bother to bum rush and hope to break the concentration on the caster? Mind also telling me what kind of minions did the dragon have at his disposal?

Like I said it sounds like the dragon fight was poorly played out by the DM. Did he even ready actions when the dragon was eventually free?

And also this is why Lair actions exists, if it happens on the dragon's hoard then he should be having those free attacks.

Not saying that Wall of Force isn't powerful (definitely not broken), but just saying that in this case it sounds like system mastery was lacking more than just a single spell facerolling the entire encounter into nothing.

[Shaofoo]

I don't really have any new ideas to fix it (the hit points idea a magic immunity are my favorites). But I will say that this is one of those spells that I just want to abuse.

Like casting it into someone's open mouth, earhole or nostril.

If my DM kills my character then I wouldn't complain. If I'm kicked out of the group...then I wouldn't have done it in the first place because I would have asked beforehand

By RAW since the wall is in a creature's space it will be pushed away from the wall unharmed. Good job you wasted a 5th level slot to create a simple marble.

I doubt the DM will have to think much more than just saying you can't do that and show the spell text, sorry that your plan of disrupting the game can be easily be countered by reading the PHB.

[SharkForce]

Still doesn't explain how could you even trap the dragon in the first place since adult dragons take space on a 15 x 15 feet area and Wall of Force encapsulates on a 10 x 10 feet area and by RAW the dragon should be pushed away from the wall as soon as it appears.

technically you push the dragon to whichever side you prefer. a 10 foot *radius* allows for a huge creature to fit inside if you so choose.

even if we presume such a creature is too tall (say, if it were a bipedal creature like a giant instead of a dragon), it can still squeeze to fit inside, and nothing specifies you have to choose a side where the creature does not have to squeeze to fit, though i could see that ruling being added by a DM. unlike the forcecage spell, there is nothing that specifies that no part of the creature can intersect the cage's boundaries.

[Shaofoo]

technically you push the dragon to whichever side you prefer. a 10 foot *radius* allows for a huge creature to fit inside if you so choose.

even if we presume such a creature is too tall (say, if it were a bipedal creature like a giant instead of a dragon), it can still squeeze to fit inside, and nothing specifies you have to choose a side where the creature does not have to squeeze to fit, though i could see that ruling being added by a DM. unlike the forcecage spell, there is nothing that specifies that no part of the creature can intersect the cage's boundaries.

Wel I guess I do stand corrected, I guess you could technically trap a dragon though the DM can easily rule that the dragon is longer than 20 feet and thus unable to be contained inside the sphere (I doubt the dragon will be willing to squeeze in for the enemy wizard).

[SharkForce]

Wel I guess I do stand corrected, I guess you could technically trap a dragon though the DM can easily rule that the dragon is longer than 20 feet and thus unable to be contained inside the sphere (I doubt the dragon will be willing to squeeze in for the enemy wizard).

you get to pick which side the dragon ends up on, not the dragon. it doesn't matter if the dragon *wants* to squeeze in or not, technically.

[Shaofoo]

you get to pick which side the dragon ends up on, not the dragon. it doesn't matter if the dragon *wants* to squeeze in or not, technically.

If the dragon is longer than 20 feet and you try to push the dragon inside then the dragon will collide with the other side before the dragon is fully inside. You are basically saying that you squeeze the dragon if you can somehow fit a line that is more than 20 feet long inside a 20 foot diameter circle.

You can choose where the dragon is pushed but it will not be inside the sphere since if you tried to do that the wall will still be intersecting the creature's space.

[Elbeyon]

Right, the creature that takes up a 15 by 15 area is now larger than 20.

[Shaofoo]

Right, the creature that takes up a 15 by 15 area is now larger than 20.

The dragon isn't 15 feet from tip to tail, considering that its bite has a 10 foot reach and its tail has a 15 foot reach. Just by the neck and the tail it is already 25 feet long (unless you are imagining a dragon that is basically a big snake). The 15 by 15 foot space is where the main body and is considered when moving through spaces but the dragon is much longer than that.

[rhouck]

technically you push the dragon to whichever side you prefer. a 10 foot *radius* allows for a huge creature to fit inside if you so choose.

even if we presume such a creature is too tall (say, if it were a bipedal creature like a giant instead of a dragon), it can still squeeze to fit inside, and nothing specifies you have to choose a side where the creature does not have to squeeze to fit, though i could see that ruling being added by a DM. unlike the forcecage spell, there is nothing that specifies that no part of the creature can intersect the cage's boundaries.

The spell used to have the language "The wall of force must be continuous and unbroken when formed; if its surface is broken by any object or creature, the spell fails". I don't know why they buffed the spell by allowing a creature to be pushed AND the caster getting to push which side. I would either go back to "spell fails" or "the creature chooses what side to be pushed to".

Another alternative would be to add a Dex save for any creature within X feet of the creation of a wall of force; a successful save lets it choose which side of the wall to be on. Wall of Stone has that language ("If a creature would be surrounded on all sides by the wall (or the wall and another solid surface), that creature can make a Dexterity saving throw. On a success, it can use its reaction to move up to its speed so that it is no longer enclosed by the wall."). Though if you start making it vulnerable to damage and adding extra saves, you basically just have Wall of Stone and not Wall of Force :smallsmile:

FWIW it also used to consume 5,000 GP worth of powdered diamond, so it wasn't a "cast every combat" spell.

This is also a good example of why I think it was a stupid change to remove spellcasting from dragons. I would encourage DMs to use the Variant rule in the MM to add some spellcasting back in, although I think even those are too weak.

All that said, I don't think it's a completely broken spell as it has its limitations. You can't damage the creature trapped. They can escape with low level magic. You can dig out from under a hemisphere (many dragons have a burrow speed). It's still subject to all the vulnerabilities of concentration. And at the end of the day it's still a 5th level spell. A wizard can cast it only 1-2 times a day (until 18th level, one more if using arcane recovery).

[Elbeyon]

I didn't realize when they put 15 by 15 in the rules they really meant make up the dimensional rules of the creature.

[SharkForce]

if you can shove the entire dragon, it's pretty safe to assume you can shove just the parts that would stick out as well.

[Shaofoo]

I didn't realize when they put 15 by 15 in the rules they really meant make up the dimensional rules of the creature.

Well then explain to me how can a creature that is 15 feet long be able to attack twice its length with its tail? Does it shoot out like a lizard's tongue, is his neck actually like a spring that snaps much longer than usual?

I am not making things up, if you have a much better explanation on its tail and bite attacks than just the neck is 10 feet long and the tail is 15 feet long then I am willing to hear it.

For the record 15 by 15 is where the mass of the dragon is, the main body, everything else doesn't affect movement and thus isn't considered when putting it in the grid.

[SharkForce]

The spell used to have the language "The wall of force must be continuous and unbroken when formed; if its surface is broken by any object or creature, the spell fails". I don't know why they buffed the spell by allowing a creature to be pushed AND the caster getting to push which side. I would either go back to "spell fails" or "the creature chooses what side to be pushed to".

Another alternative would be to add a Dex save for any creature within X feet of the creation of a wall of force; a successful save lets it choose which side of the wall to be on. Wall of Stone has that language ("If a creature would be surrounded on all sides by the wall (or the wall and another solid surface), that creature can make a Dexterity saving throw. On a success, it can use its reaction to move up to its speed so that it is no longer enclosed by the wall."). Though if you start making it vulnerable to damage and adding extra saves, you basically just have Wall of Stone and not Wall of Force :smallsmile:

FWIW it also used to consume 5,000 GP worth of powdered diamond, so it wasn't a "cast every combat" spell.

This is also a good example of why I think it was a stupid change to remove spellcasting from dragons. I would encourage DMs to use the Variant rule in the MM to add some spellcasting back in, although I think even those are too weak.

All that said, I don't think it's a completely broken spell as it has its limitations. You can't damage the creature trapped. They can escape with low level magic. You can dig out from under a hemisphere (many dragons have a burrow speed). It's still subject to all the vulnerabilities of concentration. And at the end of the day it's still a 5th level spell. A wizard can cast it only 1-2 times a day (until 18th level, one more if using arcane recovery).

you're thinking of forcecage if i'm not mistaken. wall of force never cost 5,000 gp to cast in any edition i've played.

edit: oh, and if you're reducing the dragon to lair actions only, that isn't exactly bad. you've reduced the dragon from acting 3-4 times per turn to acting once (and only if it is in its lair), and those actions are generally not that awe-inspiring, especially when compared to the dragon *not* being in a dome of force.

for example, a black dragon goes from multiattack, plus being able to wing buffet and tail attack using legendary actions (which won't work through a wall of force), to... uhh... making bugs that can deal 3d6 damage, save for half. or a darkness spell. or making water grapple people. now, those aren't bad as an *add-on* to the dragon's actions. but you just took a heck of a lot away from the dragon by putting it in a wall of force. but as the dragon's entire action every round? that's... less than impressive.

[Elbeyon]

Well then explain to me how can a creature that is 15 feet long be able to attack twice its length with its tail? Does it shoot out like a lizard's tongue, is his neck actually like a spring that snaps much longer than usual?

I am not making things up, if you have a much better explanation on its tail and bite attacks than just the neck is 10 feet long and the tail is 15 feet long then I am willing to hear it.

For the record 15 by 15 is where the mass of the dragon is, the main body, everything else doesn't affect movement and thus isn't considered when putting it in the grid.The creature's size is what it controls in battle. They don't control anything outside of that size. If things are played the way you are suggesting, a player could carrying around a long pole and be immune to all size based magic because despite there size they don't fit within their own square. This could create a lot of issues.

[charlesk]

The dragon is really incidental to the matter, at least as far as I am concerned. IMO a level 9 wizard should not be able to take pretty much anything lacking a teleport out of a fight for 10 minutes. It's just flatly OP.

[rhouck]

you're thinking of forcecage if i'm not mistaken. wall of force never cost 5,000 gp to cast in any edition i've played.

Nope, Wall of Force was 5000 gp in 2e (was just powdered diamond in 1e but no GP value). Forcecage also took powdered diamond, albeit only 1000. :smallsmile:

[Shaofoo]

The creature's size is what it controls in battle. They don't control anything outside of that size. If things are played the way you are suggesting, a player could carrying around a long pole and be immune to all size based magic because despite there size they don't fit within their own square. This could create a lot of issues.

A creature doesn't suddenly become 50 feet tall if they carry a 50 foot ladder on their shoulders, more likely the ladder will be shunted away and the creature (if this is a 6 foot human) will be stuck inside, even if he said he grabbed really hard he'd just fly in the direction of the push and eventually slam into the wall and be unable to get out.

Unless dragons had spring loaded spines then they are much longer than 15 feet, the PHB says that the creature's size is the space it needs to fight effectively and controls in combat, not the dimensions it actually holds. A dragon is much longer than 20 feet.

Also there is something that people have forgot, is that if you choose a hemisphere then the dome is 10 feet tall so the 15 x 15 should also be 15 feet tall as well so the dome will not encapsulate the dragon either way.

[Shaofoo]

The dragon is really incidental to the matter, at least as far as I am concerned. IMO a level 9 wizard should not be able to take pretty much anything lacking a teleport out of a fight for 10 minutes. It's just flatly OP.

Then balance your encounters so that the power isn't concentrated on one creature. If you have a boss then concentrate about 15-20% of the power of him and the rest on the lackeys. Also if you must have a hugely powerful end boss (that is somehow large or smaller) then use lair actions as well to make sure that even if the lackeys are moped up then the fight is still ongoing and the players are still taking some blows.

[Vogonjeltz]

Interesting that most people here found my suggestion too difficult to bring down. The mage in our group said she thought it would be too easy. Probably requires some gameplay to see what would work best in practice.

I don't get the "it's broke so don't fix it" mentality I suppose. When there are reasonable options for fixing it.

The dragon didn't back itself in a corner, I just cast it as a hemisphere. Later our mage cast it to block the dragon and minions when we had to retreat. They had no way to counter it.

And this isn't a high-level spell, it's level 5, that's available to level 9 characters.

I don't find it broken, it only lasts 10 minutes and doesn't harm a threat (and in point of fact makes you incapable of harming it). And, to be fair, only a Wizard can even cast this spell. Not really a big deal. comparably, for a 5th level spell slot the Wizard could have cast Bigby's Hand grappling the target into place AND dealing damage (granted the duration is shorter and the Hand can be damaged, so both spells have their virtues).

If you're looking for a spell counter: Cast Passwall on the ground to create a trench that goes under the wall of Force...or whereever.
As I mentioned digging is also probably an option.

I'll have to look it up, but I thought adult dragons were large enough that they couldn't be caught in the hemisphere's size.

I guess I don't understand why you think just (possibly) delaying someone and blowing a 5th level spell slot and action at the same time, would be too "broken".

[charlesk]

If you're looking for a spell counter: Cast Passwall on the ground to create a trench that goes under the wall of Force...or whereever.
As I mentioned digging is also probably an option.


It can be cast as a full sphere on a flying character who is then stuck there. And much of the point was that this is part of the imbalance between casters and non-casters. (Many/most floors in dungeons cannot be dug through anyway, and that would take an eternity.)



I'll have to look it up, but I thought adult dragons were large enough that they couldn't be caught in the hemisphere's size.

I guess I don't understand why you think just (possibly) delaying someone and blowing a 5th level spell slot and action at the same time, would be too "broken".

These issues have already been addressed in the thread. If you don't think the spell is a problem, fine, I was soliciting advice from those who agree with me that it is.

[Shaofoo]

These issues have already been addressed in the thread. If you don't think the spell is a problem, fine, I was soliciting advice from those who agree with me that it is.

The reason I don't think the spell is a problem is because it seems that the actual problem is the DM not being creative enough in their encounters plus the reasoning that the dragon shouldn't even be in the sphere in the first place.

I feel that before we lynch the spell for being broken we should probably go back and actually go over the scenario that solicited this discussion in the first place.

Lack of knowledge of readied actions, lack of coordination among the minions, lack of lair actions from the big bad and lack of general information as to the actual fight is what I see.

Because I feel that if we don't address this issue then it'll be only a matter of time before the next save or suck spell or ability deals with the big bad and you are able to wipe a hard encounter with ease.

[Ashrym]

It can be cast as a full sphere on a flying character who is then stuck there. And much of the point was that this is part of the imbalance between casters and non-casters. (Many/most floors in dungeons cannot be dug through anyway, and that would take an eternity.)

That's not an issue for several monsters. As mentioned earlier, dragons are larger than their controlled space, like giants, dragon turtles, and the tarrasque. Reach plus space gives a better indication of size than just space, but ultimately most dimensions are not available and being able to trap huge monsters is strictly up to the DM's interpretation.

On a surface the wall of force is either a wall or hemisphere, and a hemisphere is more restricted than a sphere against a flyer at 10 ft height. In both cases burrowing speed or the ability to move through solid objects add to short range teleport effects and breaking concentration. In the event of a wall a secret or concealed exit (preplanned escape route) can also work.

Casting wall of force on a character is irrelevant unless you are running some kind of PvP setup. PC's cast the spell at monsters, not other characters.

In the long run, the spell does nothing but take an opponent out of combat temporarily. High damage melee PC's take opponents out of combat more permanently for similar overall effect because dead is still a better status effect.


These issues have already been addressed in the thread. If you don't think the spell is a problem, fine, I was soliciting advice from those who agree with me that it is.

Explaining why something isn't a problem to back up the advice of not making any changes is still advice worth considering. If you really believe the spell is an issue then simply ban it from your games and the issue is solved.

If all you are including the expression of a caster / non-caster imbalance opinion then any is within his or her right to express disagreement with that opinion.

[Pex]

The dragon is really incidental to the matter, at least as far as I am concerned. IMO a level 9 wizard should not be able to take pretty much anything lacking a teleport out of a fight for 10 minutes. It's just flatly OP.

Why? A wizard can take an appropriate level opponent out of a fight at first level.

[Knaight]

Then balance your encounters so that the power isn't concentrated on one creature. If you have a boss then concentrate about 15-20% of the power of him and the rest on the lackeys. Also if you must have a hugely powerful end boss (that is somehow large or smaller) then use lair actions as well to make sure that even if the lackeys are moped up then the fight is still ongoing and the players are still taking some blows.

So the spell singlehandedly shuts down the entire category of encounters where there's a lot of power concentrated in one creature, and yet somehow this isn't a problem? There's next to no defense against it, next to no counters once it's there, and it's a low risk low resource move to cast.


Why? A wizard can take an appropriate level opponent out of a fight at first level.
Exactly. This goes from appropriate level opponent, to a huge chunk of creatures. You're up against the deadliest swordsman to ever live? Not a problem, they're medium sized.

[Shaofoo]

So the spell singlehandedly shuts down the entire category of encounters where there's a lot of power concentrated in one creature, and yet somehow this isn't a problem? There's next to no defense against it, next to no counters once it's there, and it's a low risk low resource move to cast.

If you put your entire power on the big bad then I just have to say don't put all your eggs in one basket. There are multiple ways to take out the big bad quickly from every single class, including mass damage. If you truly want a hugely powerful bad guy and meek minions then may I suggest putting traps and lair actions as well to even the odds. Also while the bad guy is trapped maybe he could give some big buffs to the minions while he is trapped, he is able to be completely safe while the party has to deal with buff minions now. Like I said you have to be more creative than just party vs BBEG cause in nearly all cases the party will handily wipe the BBEG with little fanfare and this is truly in all D&D unless you stack the deck towards the BBEG a lot.

And like I said, you can counter Wall of Force if you are big enough (the dragon example can't be wall of forced and anything else big enough will be likewise pushed without being trapped).



Exactly. This goes from appropriate level opponent, to a huge chunk of creatures. You're up against the deadliest swordsman to ever live? Not a problem, they're medium sized.

Cool the swordman is trapped in a dome of force and safe from anything you can do, nothing has happened. Mind you if he has any modicum of smarts he will ready actions so that he can act the moment the dome drops free.

[Ashrym]

So the spell singlehandedly shuts down the entire category of encounters where there's a lot of power concentrated in one creature, and yet somehow this isn't a problem? There's next to no defense against it, next to no counters once it's there, and it's a low risk low resource move to cast.


Exactly. This goes from appropriate level opponent, to a huge chunk of creatures. You're up against the deadliest swordsman to ever live? Not a problem, they're medium sized.

1) The deadliest swordsman alive might go first which could be an issue.

2) Delaying that deadliest swordsman alive doesn't win the encounter unless the goal somehow only requires delaying him 10 minutes. Generally, he'll still be deadly 10 minutes later but the wizard is down a 5th-level spell slot.

3) The monsters are very commonly not alone.


Want another easy solution? A thief creeps up behind him before he is aware of danger in the first place and sleight-of-hands manacles on him. ;-)

[Ramshack]

The spell used to have the language "The wall of force must be continuous and unbroken when formed; if its surface is broken by any object or creature, the spell fails". I don't know why they buffed the spell by allowing a creature to be pushed AND the caster getting to push which side. I would either go back to "spell fails" or "the creature chooses what side to be pushed to".

Another alternative would be to add a Dex save for any creature within X feet of the creation of a wall of force; a successful save lets it choose which side of the wall to be on. Wall of Stone has that language ("If a creature would be surrounded on all sides by the wall (or the wall and another solid surface), that creature can make a Dexterity saving throw. On a success, it can use its reaction to move up to its speed so that it is no longer enclosed by the wall."). Though if you start making it vulnerable to damage and adding extra saves, you basically just have Wall of Stone and not Wall of Force :smallsmile:

FWIW it also used to consume 5,000 GP worth of powdered diamond, so it wasn't a "cast every combat" spell.

This is also a good example of why I think it was a stupid change to remove spellcasting from dragons. I would encourage DMs to use the Variant rule in the MM to add some spellcasting back in, although I think even those are too weak.

All that said, I don't think it's a completely broken spell as it has its limitations. You can't damage the creature trapped. They can escape with low level magic. You can dig out from under a hemisphere (many dragons have a burrow speed). It's still subject to all the vulnerabilities of concentration. And at the end of the day it's still a 5th level spell. A wizard can cast it only 1-2 times a day (until 18th level, one more if using arcane recovery).

All I'm reading in this thread is that a character used a spell tactfully and appropriately to make an encounter easier to manage. The spell was non offensive in nature, the BBG is still alive and was used to escape and as a result helped save her group of adventures against a deadly foe. What is the problem again?

I don't see a problem with this, it was a clever use of a spell. Every spell shouldn't have an automatic counter otherwise it makes casting that spell worthless.

Otherwise always ensure your encounters are backed by an 18th level wizard sitting invisible ready to counter the players spells.

[pwykersotz]

I have an alternative. The Wall requires concentration to maintain, so make it targetable with attacks, but it doesn't actually take damage. Instead, whenever the wall is hit, the casting wizard has to maintain concentration as if he had taken the damage (though he doesn't actually take any damage). You can offer it either a Hardness or Resistance to certain damage types, etc.

To me, this makes for a much simpler option, as you don't have to track it's HP, and instead of summoning a big pile of HP that gets whittled down, you have the drama and competition of the caster vs whatever he's trying to keep in/out beating on it. Much more cinematic.

I'm definitely going to try this next time it comes up. I'll let you know how it works (assuming I remember).

This is a pretty sweet way to run it too, very thematic. :smallsmile:

[charlesk]

Like I said you have to be more creative than just party vs BBEG cause in nearly all cases the party will handily wipe the BBEG with little fanfare and this is truly in all D&D unless you stack the deck towards the BBEG a lot.


The entire point of the complaint about the Wall of Force is that it allows the party to first focus on the minions and then have just the BBEG to focus on, making the BBEG much easier. You are trying to argue that there's nothing wrong with the spell while at the same time arguing against putting eggs in one basket, when the spell is what lets you pick off all the other baskets so there is only one left.

What's he supposed to do, rewrite this encounter in a WotC module so, what, there are 5 dragons? The dragon is as strong as its minions?

It's starting to get silly in here.



And like I said, you can counter Wall of Force if you are big enough (the dragon example can't be wall of forced and anything else big enough will be likewise pushed without being trapped).


So a level 20 fighter can be held in a bubble for 10 minutes, effectively removed from the fight, and this is no problem. Er, okay. I think it is. We are not going to agree on this.



Cool the swordman is trapped in a dome of force and safe from anything you can do, nothing has happened.


Right, because killing things is the only way of resolving a situation 100% of the time.




Explaining why something isn't a problem to back up the advice of not making any changes is still advice worth considering.


Not when it is accompanied by hand-waving the problem away by saying it doesn't matter because the creature isn't killed, blaming the DM for being "uncreative", etc.



If you really believe the spell is an issue then simply ban it from your games and the issue is solved.


I actually was aware of this option. If I wanted to do that, I wouldn't have started the thread.

Except this isn't my game, it is someone else's. And he's not being "uncreative", he's playing a WotC module and generally quite well.

Whatever. Thanks to those who provided some good ideas for dealing with this.

[Shaofoo]

The entire point of the complaint about the Wall of Force is that it allows the party to first focus on the minions and then have just the BBEG to focus on, making the BBEG much easier. You are trying to argue that there's nothing wrong with the spell while at the same time arguing against putting eggs in one basket, when the spell is what lets you pick off all the other baskets so there is only one left.

Like I said many times, why didn't he minions try to rush towards the Wizard and beat him up to free the BBEG? Did the minions play smart or where they supposed to either be dumb meat shields or cheerleaders for the BBEG, only existing to buff the BBEG and nothing else?

The spell is powerful but I doubt that the DM played to its fullest abilities at all.


What's he supposed to do, rewrite this encounter in a WotC module so, what, there are 5 dragons? The dragon is as strong as its minions?

If he was following an WotC module then it is within his right to change it as he sees fit. And if it was an official module then are there any complaints that people are making in public that if you were to somehow isolate the BBEG in anyway then the encounter becomes trivial? Mind actually explaining the encounter?


It's starting to get silly in here.

Not silly enough to your tastes as we shall see


So a level 20 fighter can be held in a bubble for 10 minutes, effectively removed from the fight, and this is no problem. Er, okay. I think it is. We are not going to agree on this.

This should only matter if the fighter has 10 minutes to live. You just added the fighter and nothing else. At this point this is wizard vs fighter and all the wizard did is stall for 10 minutes, unless the fighter can only live or succeed in the next 10 minutes then the wizard just expended a spell slot. Mind actually expanding this scenario more?


Right, because killing things is the only way of resolving a situation 100% of the time.

So what is the end result here, if the Wizard just has to stall the swordsman for 10 minutes then yes it is the best spell for the job, otherwise you would have stalled for 10 minutes and that's it? It seems that you thrive on the silliness that you yourself have claimed here, are you actually keeping track of the things that you have said. Cause right now we are in a duel to the KO with time out in 10 minutes where the wizard can just shoot a simple cantrip then bubble the fighter and time him out for the win, is this the situation that you have planted?


Not when it is accompanied by hand-waving the problem away by saying it doesn't matter because the creature isn't killed, blaming the DM for being "uncreative", etc.

You have yet to actually give a proper explanation of the situation beyond party bubbles dragon and proceeds to face roll everything in the encounter in no time flat. I tried to ask for clarification numerous times and it is your fault that I will have to consider the DM uncreative because I don't see it any other way. You are making your DM look bad here.


I actually was aware of this option. If I wanted to do that, I wouldn't have started the thread.

Except this isn't my game, it is someone else's. And he's not being "uncreative", he's playing a WotC module and generally quite well.

Not well enough that he failed to notice that the dragon can't be bubbled in the first place, of course this can be a simple oversight but I don't think you can consider he played well if he basically shot himself in the foot there with that ruling. He should've been more through.

[Gurka]

This is a pretty sweet way to run it too, very thematic. :smallsmile:

Thanks. I'm actually combing through to see if I can apply this idea to any other spells, since I like it so much.

I'm not sure you'll get much more use out of the thread, since it's mostly devolved into the finer points of how large 10 feet is.

[DemonSlayer6]

First, note that Wall of Force has a size restriction thusly:

You can have a 10-foot radius circular wall 10-foot high. This covers an area between 15-by-15-ft and 20-by-20-ft.
You can have a 10-foot radius dome. This area is the same as the circular wall, but traps the thing within it.
You can have a vertical wall composed of ten 10-by-10-ft panels. This permits a 20-by-20-ft square area just slightly larger than the circular wall.


Second, note that Wall of Force pushes a creature as determined by the caster. As such, the creature could be contained within the dome or wall. In light of these, you could easily capture a dragon of the appropriate size within it.

-----

Now, how to work this is curious. On one hand, using a spell to ease a deadly encounter is the epitome of ingenuity and should be rewarded instead of punished. This is especially true if this was the first time that tactic was used: the joy that both the players and the characters feel when a foolish plan works better than expected is why D&D exists in the first place. On the other hand, you don't want the character to rely on the same single spell again and again.

In light of this, I have a few suggestions.

First, ask the character why they selected that spell. There are Wall of Fire, Wall of Ice, Wall of Stone, and Wind Wall spells. So why did they choose Wall of Force? In fact, why did the character select a wall spell (used for defense)
Second, try to combine encounters. Normally you imagine dragon fights as a multiplayer boss fight. But allow the dragon to order some mooks to attack the caster. At a minimum, this gives the other characters something to do while the wall's caster sets up some awesome plan for when the barrier falls. At a maximum, it frees the dragon sooner than the party expected.
Third, many high-level "boss" monsters (such as dragons) have "lair effects". Maybe the dragon causes an earthquake, requiring the caster to make a Dexterity save and a Concentration save to maintain the spell.
Fourth, if you are doing a homebrew or non-regulation/non-Adventurer's League play then you could add an enemy caster who could disintegrate the Wall of Force. Or you could have the wall set to some hit-point value when used to trap an enemy; essentially a Wall of Stone that might be resistant to physical attacks but weak against magic attacks.


Also, I would totally be the player who casts "Wall of Force" so that it encompasses my party, letting us heal up for a bit.

[Shaofoo]

Second, note that Wall of Force pushes a creature as determined by the caster. As such, the creature could be contained within the dome or wall. In light of these, you could easily capture a dragon of the appropriate size within it.



Just want to clarify the second point there that the actual text says that if you cut through the space of a creature you only choose which side the wall will push the creature to. You don't determine the actual pushing beyond I want the creature to be moved at this side.

You can capture anyone that at its longest point does not exceed 20 feet, a 40 foot dragon does not meet the criteria to be captured by the wall of Force.

[Strill]

Cool the swordman is trapped in a dome of force and safe from anything you can do, nothing has happened. Mind you if he has any modicum of smarts he will ready actions so that he can act the moment the dome drops free.

At which point you cast Shape Earth to entomb them in stone, and maybe transmute the inside to lava for good measure.

[Kryx]

Some people like encounter breaking spells. Some people don't.
Wall of Force definitely makes encounter building a challenge in that it can effectively CC 1+ creature(s) for many rounds without a save. If you think that is acceptable then don't change it. Others don't find that to be quite as acceptable.

Imagine it happening to a PC - they would hate being disabled for a whole encounter with no save.
That's the perspective I like to take: Would a PC find it acceptable for this to be used on them? No? Ok, then a PC shouldn't find it fair to use it on others either.

[charlesk]

Now, how to work this is curious. On one hand, using a spell to ease a deadly encounter is the epitome of ingenuity and should be rewarded instead of punished. This is especially true if this was the first time that tactic was used: the joy that both the players and the characters feel when a foolish plan works better than expected is why D&D exists in the first place. On the other hand, you don't want the character to rely on the same single spell again and again.


This is part of the problem. I see no reason why, in future serious combats, my opening move would be anything other than to bubble the toughest threat so we can deal with it later. Sure there are cases where it won't work, but many where it will. And where it does work, there is no counter.



First, ask the character why they selected that spell. There are Wall of Fire, Wall of Ice, Wall of Stone, and Wind Wall spells. So why did they choose Wall of Force? In fact, why did the character select a wall spell (used for defense)


The dragon was "hit and running" us with breath weapons. I wanted it to both stop doing that and also be where we could keep an eye on it. Wall of Force was an obvious choice.



Second, try to combine encounters. Normally you imagine dragon fights as a multiplayer boss fight. But allow the dragon to order some mooks to attack the caster. At a minimum, this gives the other characters something to do while the wall's caster sets up some awesome plan for when the barrier falls. At a maximum, it frees the dragon sooner than the party expected.


Again, there were already many mooks. They were trying to attack the caster, but couldn't find him (he could fly and was hiding in the terrain).



Third, many high-level "boss" monsters (such as dragons) have "lair effects". Maybe the dragon causes an earthquake, requiring the caster to make a Dexterity save and a Concentration save to maintain the spell.

Fourth, if you are doing a homebrew or non-regulation/non-Adventurer's League play then you could add an enemy caster who could disintegrate the Wall of Force. Or you could have the wall set to some hit-point value when used to trap an enemy; essentially a Wall of Stone that might be resistant to physical attacks but weak against magic attacks.


These are good suggestions but then we are back to having to design encounters around a spell, which is pretty strong evidence that it is broken. This is a prewritten campaign, and the DM fudging extra stuff in there to deal with the wall is IMO worse than fixing the spell.



Also, I would totally be the player who casts "Wall of Force" so that it encompasses my party, letting us heal up for a bit.

That was an option I considered at one point. We later used a different Wall of Force to escape, completely preventing anything from following us. The DM tried but that's the problem with this spell: without Disintegrate or a teleport, that's it, you are stuck. That's why the discussion about changing it.

Being able to create an indestructible object of that size that lasts for that long simply has too many uses for it not to have a major impact on a lot of battles, far more than any other level 5 spell I can think of.

[Steampunkette]

I have an alternative. The Wall requires concentration to maintain, so make it targetable with attacks, but it doesn't actually take damage. Instead, whenever the wall is hit, the casting wizard has to maintain concentration as if he had taken the damage (though he doesn't actually take any damage). You can offer it either a Hardness or Resistance to certain damage types, etc.

To me, this makes for a much simpler option, as you don't have to track it's HP, and instead of summoning a big pile of HP that gets whittled down, you have the drama and competition of the caster vs whatever he's trying to keep in/out beating on it. Much more cinematic.

I'm definitely going to try this next time it comes up. I'll let you know how it works (assuming I remember).

I like this one!

[Shaofoo]

At which point you cast Shape Earth to entomb them in stone, and maybe transmute the inside to lava for good measure.

There is no such thing as a Shape Earth spell and there is no way to transmute earth into lava through a Wall of Force. Mind actually keeping to options that exist in 5e, thanks. No need to inflate the value of Wall of Force with facetious combos.

Also if you mean Move Earth, keep it mind it takes 10 minutes for the changes to take effect and it is a Concentration spell as well and also it is illegal since the spell requires a Range and it is blocked by Line of Effect.


This is part of the problem. I see no reason why, in future serious combats, my opening move would be anything other than to bubble the toughest threat so we can deal with it later. Sure there are cases where it won't work, but many where it will. And where it does work, there is no counter.

Well the toughest, size appropriate threat, like I said before the dragon shouldn't have been bubbled but even then you are just complaining about good tactics, also by the end game either the BBEG is already too big to fit in a bubble or has magic to deal with it most likely.



Again, there were already many mooks. They were trying to attack the caster, but couldn't find him (he could fly and was hiding in the terrain).


Woah woah there, now you are actually explaining your tale and already I see some things wrong with it.

How can the caster both be flying and have Wall of Force up at the same time? They are both concentration spells and can't be cast together. Of course some other caster could be casting and maintaining fly for you but then it becomes less about Wall of Force being the key spell and just the party novaing for the encounter.

Second how can he both be flying and hide in the terrain at the same time? Was he hiding in the stalactites of a cave or something? Wall of Force has a range of 120 feet so I doubt he could just snipe from far away and keep on hiding.

Third the mooks didn't have their own flyers or ways to deal ranged damage? While you did say this was a module I would never only have one enemy be able to do ranged attacks unless this was the first or second fight with goblins or the like. Why didn't the mooks have javelins or bows to use against the wizard, or even being part of the dragon's entourage they didn't have magic or breath weapons? Even 1st level players know to always bring ranged options.



These are good suggestions but then we are back to having to design encounters around a spell, which is pretty strong evidence that it is broken. This is a prewritten campaign, and the DM fudging extra stuff in there to deal with the wall is IMO worse than fixing the spell.

Honestly at this point why couldn't you just admit the DM done goofed, it was a honest mistake but tell him next time to keep in mind the dimensions of the actual monster and not the size it commands in battle.

You should still design and modify your battles but because there are other ways to save or suck the big bad (Quivering Palm, Force Cage, Power Words, Polymorph, and so on) Wall of Force at least prevents you from doing anything to him as well and ties up your concentration.


That was an option I considered at one point. We later used a different Wall of Force to escape, completely preventing anything from following us. The DM tried but that's the problem with this spell: without Disintegrate or a teleport, that's it, you are stuck. That's why the discussion about changing it.

Well you get at best a 10 minute head start and while you are escaping other things can happen and the wizard now either has to end his concentration to concentrate on the enemy or keep it up and be unable to use any other concentration spell.

I know that this is probably a pre written module but you can't just assume that because you left the guys stuck in a room that somehow you are free to move... or that even the guys stuck can actually go through a secret passage in the room itself, there are far too many variables to just say "Wall of Force is always the best escape option"

[Gurka]

Just want to clarify the second point there that the actual text says that if you cut through the space of a creature you only choose which side the wall will push the creature to. You don't determine the actual pushing beyond I want the creature to be moved at this side.

You can capture anyone that at its longest point does not exceed 20 feet, a 40 foot dragon does not meet the criteria to be captured by the wall of Force.

To be fair, there ARE rules for squeezing into a smaller space than one normally occupies. A creature can fit into a space that will normally accommodate a creature of it's dimensions one size smaller. That means a Large quadrupedal dragon can be squeezed into a medium quadrupedal space.

The spells specifies that you choose which side of the wall (or bubble in this case) the target ends up on. So if it's physically capable of fitting, it should be doable for large quadrupeds or Huge bipeds, if I'm not mistaken. Not trying to inflate it's value, just being a good old fashioned rules lawyer.

[SharkForce]

shape doesn't matter for space in this edition anymore. huge creatures are 15x15. the dome is 20 feet across (10 foot RADIUS, not diameter). all huge creatures can fit into that space without squeezing.

again, it makes very little sense that you would be able to shove an *entire dragon* into an area, but could somehow be unable to shove the head and tail (which is what people are trying to use to justify why the wall of force cannot contain a dragon).

now, from a balance perspective, i can certainly understand a desire to have the spell not work as described. but simply put, arguing that dragons specifically won't fit is not a solution unless every potential target for the spell is a dragon. since that is not the case, there are better balance solutions. personally, i prefer the dex saving throw option that exists with other walls.

but really the main problem is that it is a no-save lockdown for 10 minutes at all. whether the target it is locking down is a dragon or half of a hobgoblin mob is irrelevant. what is relevant is that you can just pick a group of enemies and decide to deal with them later and downgrade a single deadly encounter into two medium encounters. or, if you're willing to expend resources again, you can break it down even further into multiple easy encounters.

[Forum Explorer]

Right, the creature that takes up a 15 by 15 area is now larger than 20.


shape doesn't matter for space in this edition anymore. huge creatures are 15x15. the dome is 20 feet across (10 foot RADIUS, not diameter). all huge creatures can fit into that space without squeezing.

again, it makes very little sense that you would be able to shove an *entire dragon* into an area, but could somehow be unable to shove the head and tail (which is what people are trying to use to justify why the wall of force cannot contain a dragon).

now, from a balance perspective, i can certainly understand a desire to have the spell not work as described. but simply put, arguing that dragons specifically won't fit is not a solution unless every potential target for the spell is a dragon. since that is not the case, there are better balance solutions. personally, i prefer the dex saving throw option that exists with other walls.

but really the main problem is that it is a no-save lockdown for 10 minutes at all. whether the target it is locking down is a dragon or half of a hobgoblin mob is irrelevant. what is relevant is that you can just pick a group of enemies and decide to deal with them later and downgrade a single deadly encounter into two medium encounters. or, if you're willing to expend resources again, you can break it down even further into multiple easy encounters.

I actually did the math for this problem when it was brought up in another thread. The problem isn't that the hemi-sphere isn't wide enough, it's that it isn't tall enough. And if you want to operate on the assumption that 'the area controlled' by the dragon is approximately it's volume, the dome simply won't contain enough space either.


But Sharkforce is right, just because it doesn't work on dragons, doesn't mean the spell isn't problematic. Of course, an answer is have the rest of the encounter focus on the mage to try and bring down the wall as soon as possible. And if the encounter is a single target, then it's just a delaying tactic.

[Mellack]

How can the caster both be flying and have Wall of Force up at the same time? They are both concentration spells and can't be cast together. Of course some other caster could be casting and maintaining fly for you but then it becomes less about Wall of Force being the key spell and just the party novaing for the encounter.

Second how can he both be flying and hide in the terrain at the same time? Was he hiding in the stalactites of a cave or something? Wall of Force has a range of 120 feet so I doubt he could just snipe from far away and keep on hiding.


I do not know the character in question but I want to point out there are ways to fly other than the spell. There is a race that can fly naturally, as well as magic items that can grant it. Don't assume they are doing it wrong.

Second, once a spell is cast the range does not matter for concentration. As long as they were in the 120' for the initial casting action, they could move as far away as they want and still keep the wall in place. They can even leave the room completely to hide and keep it up.

[Elbeyon]

I actually did the math for this problem when it was brought up in another thread. The problem isn't that the hemi-sphere isn't wide enough, it's that it isn't tall enough. And if you want to operate on the assumption that 'the area controlled' by the dragon is approximately it's volume, the dome simply won't contain enough space either.The volume of a 10 ft. radius sphere (4188.79 ft3) is larger than a 15 ft. cube (3375 ft3). A hemispherical dome can trap a (2094.395 ft3) volume in the dome plus a 20 by 20 by 5 (2000 ft3) rectangle while it free floats above the dragon (A huge creature can not squeeze through the 5 feet gap left by the dome).

The spell has options to trap a huge dragon. Luckily, this dragon was flying and the sphere could be used.

[SharkForce]

I actually did the math for this problem when it was brought up in another thread. The problem isn't that the hemi-sphere isn't wide enough, it's that it isn't tall enough. And if you want to operate on the assumption that 'the area controlled' by the dragon is approximately it's volume, the dome simply won't contain enough space either.


except going by the "tail and neck" theory, we have to ask whether the dragon is actually as tall as it is long. i'm inclined to say that it isn't. dragons are not very cube-shaped. it might be a problem for a giant, but you can still just force them to kneel.

even if necessary, you can give them a bit more room at the bottom by lifting the dome a foot or three. though that probably allows the breath weapon to potentially come into play.

[Shaofoo]

To be fair, there ARE rules for squeezing into a smaller space than one normally occupies. A creature can fit into a space that will normally accommodate a creature of it's dimensions one size smaller. That means a Large quadrupedal dragon can be squeezed into a medium quadrupedal space.

Yes there are rules that says that a target can squeeze but this is under movement and position, this isn't something that you can force the dragon to do.

A dragon could want to squeeze into a Wall of Force if he wants to, a dragon will probably not want to go along the enemy spellcaster's wishes and will not want to squeeze.

Squeezing is something that you must do yourself, no one else can force you to do it.


The spells specifies that you choose which side of the wall (or bubble in this case) the target ends up on. So if it's physically capable of fitting, it should be doable for large quadrupeds or Huge bipeds, if I'm not mistaken. Not trying to inflate it's value, just being a good old fashioned rules lawyer.

Sorry you just choose the side and the spell tries to push, nothing says that the spell has to force the target to squeeze into the space provided.

Because what is stopping me from saying I want to try to fit the dragon inside a 1 foot sphere, I just target the foot sphere inside the dragon's space and order to suck it in, he could technically fill the entire sphere. Sure the dragon would probably be dead but why can't I say that in its entirety the matter that a dragon has can fill a single foot sphere, or if it is too small then just increase the size till I find the size big enough that I can crush the dragon inside.

I am pretty sure it is intended that if you cut through the space of a creature then it is pushed so long as you don't bump against the wall of force, a dragon will bump into the other side of the wall of force if you tried to force him inside and thus must be forced out in such a way that it will be completely out, therefore it must come out on the outside.


shape doesn't matter for space in this edition anymore. huge creatures are 15x15. the dome is 20 feet across (10 foot RADIUS, not diameter). all huge creatures can fit into that space without squeezing.

Read page 191 of the PHB, size is not a definitive representation of the dimensions of the monster, it is the space it needs to move and fight, it is obvious that this is the main body while the tail and neck are jutting out far away.


again, it makes very little sense that you would be able to shove an *entire dragon* into an area, but could somehow be unable to shove the head and tail (which is what people are trying to use to justify why the wall of force cannot contain a dragon).

It helps if you don't think that the dragon is 15 feet long from snout to tip and can somehow attack up to 10 and 15 feet away with his spring loaded spine that apparently all dragons have.


now, from a balance perspective, i can certainly understand a desire to have the spell not work as described. but simply put, arguing that dragons specifically won't fit is not a solution unless every potential target for the spell is a dragon. since that is not the case, there are better balance solutions. personally, i prefer the dex saving throw option that exists with other walls.

Any creature that at his longest point is larger than 20 feet the Wall of Force cannot encapsulate it at all. This extends beyond dragons.

Yes you will have to pay attention as to the potential dimensions of your monsters but you should care if you actually want to effectively fight. Yes it is more homework but if you are saying that the spell is broken for lazy DMs then so be it.

I do agree that a Dex saving throw would be good for creatures to get out if they could be trapped fully and I would approve of such a change.


but really the main problem is that it is a no-save lockdown for 10 minutes at all. whether the target it is locking down is a dragon or half of a hobgoblin mob is irrelevant. what is relevant is that you can just pick a group of enemies and decide to deal with them later and downgrade a single deadly encounter into two medium encounters. or, if you're willing to expend resources again, you can break it down even further into multiple easy encounters.

Like I said before, it is a concentration spell and if the rest of the enemy party knows what is up they can go and give the beatdown on the wizard to free the trapped comrades. People seem to think that the wall will always be on as soon as it is up and nothing can ever take it down.


I do not know the character in question but I want to point out there are ways to fly other than the spell. There is a race that can fly naturally, as well as magic items that can grant it. Don't assume they are doing it wrong.

He failed to specify what was the actual composition of the fight, all I know is the Wall of Force was used to face roll. If he somehow had some flying item or was the bird man then he should've said something. And either way you are using other things to nullify a potential weakness that you have now.

I doubt Wall of Force is a broken spell if it only breaks if you can fly. Not everyone can fly and like I said before, flying is not a free pass, all bad guys should have plentiful ranged options. So even flying has its limitations. Not broken.


Second, once a spell is cast the range does not matter for concentration. As long as they were in the 120' for the initial casting action, they could move as far away as they want and still keep the wall in place. They can even leave the room completely to hide and keep it up.

I said that in the context that somehow the bad guys were not aware that the spell was cast and the wizard could somehow keep hidden. If you read further you would have read that you can use a wall of force to trap creatures in a room and give yourself a 10 minute head start so I never said that you had to keep within a 120 foot range of the Wall of Force

[Vogonjeltz]

It can be cast as a full sphere on a flying character who is then stuck there. And much of the point was that this is part of the imbalance between casters and non-casters. (Many/most floors in dungeons cannot be dug through anyway, and that would take an eternity.)

It was presented as being used in a dungeon, flying isn't exactly an option in 99% of dungeons. Anyway, within the scope of the situations given those were both viable options, if you want to discuss other scenarios we can do that then.


These issues have already been addressed in the thread. If you don't think the spell is a problem, fine, I was soliciting advice from those who agree with me that it is.

Yeah, except they haven't or I wouldn't have had to ask. The closest the original post came was saying there's only a couple counters. So what? Basically everything has only a couple counters, and for offensive abilities there's often no counter at all, just the target hoping the attack misses.


Exactly. This goes from appropriate level opponent, to a huge chunk of creatures. You're up against the deadliest swordsman to ever live? Not a problem, they're medium sized.

If this swordsman is so deadly that they'll kill the Wizard, then how is that going to be any different in the <10 minutes after the casting that the spell can be concentrated on? It's not like the wizard has changed anything, they'll just die later instead of immediately.


So a level 20 fighter can be held in a bubble for 10 minutes, effectively removed from the fight, and this is no problem. Er, okay. I think it is. We are not going to agree on this.

If the fighter is completely alone, then trapping them in a bubble for 10 minutes does literally nothing to effect the situation, it's just hitting pause. As soon as the game unpauses, the fighter continues as if nothing had happened (except pausing costs the wizard a very limited and precious resource).

If the fighter isn't alone, their companions can (and should) hit the wizard, forcing constitution saving throw that wizards lack proficiency in. Basline there's a 50% chance of failing the save, so it's incredibly likely that the spell won't last 1 round, let alone 10 minutes. Assuming anyone at all is trying to kill the wizard, of course.


Right, because killing things is the only way of resolving a situation 100% of the time.

Unless the wizard convinces them to stop killing them, yes it's probably the only way to resolve a lethal situation like that.


•First, ask the character why they selected that spell. There are Wall of Fire, Wall of Ice, Wall of Stone, and Wind Wall spells. So why did they choose Wall of Force? In fact, why did the character select a wall spell (used for defense)

Wall of Ice is a 6th level spell slot, so that could be a factor. Wind Wall wouldn't stop a dragon. I suppose wall of stone is an option, but it gives a saving throw and is destructible making it not a problem for a dragon.


This is part of the problem. I see no reason why, in future serious combats, my opening move would be anything other than to bubble the toughest threat so we can deal with it later. Sure there are cases where it won't work, but many where it will. And where it does work, there is no counter.

The counter is to hit the wizard. They aren't going to make those constitution saving throws.


Some people like encounter breaking spells. Some people don't.
Wall of Force definitely makes encounter building a challenge in that it can effectively CC 1+ creature(s) for many rounds without a save. If you think that is acceptable then don't change it. Others don't find that to be quite as acceptable.

Imagine it happening to a PC - they would hate being disabled for a whole encounter with no save.
That's the perspective I like to take: Would a PC find it acceptable for this to be used on them? No? Ok, then a PC shouldn't find it fair to use it on others either.

I agree, in general, with your reasoning, but wall of force doesn't fit the bill. It's concentration requiring (prohibiting other, useful, spells to be cast), it doesn't harm a thing, and because of concentration it can be brought down by doing what the enemy is going to do anyway: attack the caster.

In effect, there's little or no opportunity cost involved in disrupting the wall's existence.

Now, a good use of wall of force would be to box off yourself (so you can't be attacked) while at the same time blocking one enemy off with the rest of your team. The paneled version should work for that, depending on the terrain.


Woah woah there, now you are actually explaining your tale and already I see some things wrong with it.

How can the caster both be flying and have Wall of Force up at the same time? They are both concentration spells and can't be cast together. Of course some other caster could be casting and maintaining fly for you but then it becomes less about Wall of Force being the key spell and just the party novaing for the encounter.

Wow. Yeah, that's a huge red flag right there.

[charlesk]

It was presented as being used in a dungeon, flying isn't exactly an option in 99% of dungeons.


Dungeons with dragons in them? If you say so.

At any rate, this is tangential to the primary point about this spell.



If the fighter isn't alone, their companions can (and should) hit the wizard, forcing constitution saving throw that wizards lack proficiency in. Basline there's a 50% chance of failing the save, so it's incredibly likely that the spell won't last 1 round, let alone 10 minutes. Assuming anyone at all is trying to kill the wizard, of course.


If the wizard is that easy to jostle into a failed save, then the wizard isn't very good.

You are essentially using a strawman argument here: "overpowered spell doesn't matter because wizard can have concentration disrupted", ignoring the many ways a good wizard has of preventing that from happening. As has already been pointed out, once the wall is in place the wizard doesn't even have to be anywhere in the area. He could just Dimension Door out of there, if all else failed.



Unless the wizard convinces them to stop killing them, yes it's probably the only way to resolve a lethal situation like that.


Missed the entire point, which is that in addition to its easy (ab)use in combat, it can be used to neutralize a whole category of threats where the PCs do not want combat but the NPCs do.



The counter is to hit the wizard. They aren't going to make those constitution saving throws.


That's not a counter. It's at best an unreliable after-the-fact remedy. Especially if the wall is used to simply bypass a guard or other non-caster.



Wow. Yeah, that's a huge red flag right there.

No, it isn't actually a red flag at all. The reasons why have already been posted in the thread. And it's also completely irrelevant to the main topic at hand.

[Ashrym]

If the wizard is that easy to jostle into a failed save, then the wizard isn't very good.

The developers claim they were deliberate in making it harder to maintain concentration at higher levels. Monsters have some fairly high damage attacks and multiple attack options so your idea of an easy jostle at 12-15 DC CON save that requires feats typically after having taking INT twice would be rather substantial still on a single such attacker with 2 attacks. Additionally, several effects automatically cause you to lose concentration; incapacitated and any other effect that includes incapacitated.


Missed the entire point, which is that in addition to its easy (ab)use in combat, it can be used to neutralize a whole category of threats where the PCs do not want combat but the NPCs do.

NO, you missed the point. The spell neutralizes nothing. It restrains something temporarily, and that crowd control option can help control incoming damage but it's only delaying the damage and making the encounter take longer by dividing it up.

An action surging battlemaster archer with a criminal background (for easier access to black market poisons) who coated his arrow in poison neutralizes a single target in a single round instead of just delaying it for several. That does damage in one round to rival meteor swarm, but far more often, and actually does neutralize that target. Your idea of neutralized is way less effective. Dead is better than delayed. Therefore the spell is not an issue.

[Shaofoo]

Dungeons with dragons in them? If you say so.

At any rate, this is tangential to the primary point about this spell.


Rather the point is that you can't really kite all that well while in a dungeon, sure you may be able to play keep away with the melee guys but you aren't going to go father than a few dozen feet up at the very best.



If the wizard is that easy to jostle into a failed save, then the wizard isn't very good.

I would really would like some clarification here, are you saying that a good wizard should never ever get hit at all or that somehow a wizard that can't make his Con checks are bad wizards.


You are essentially using a strawman argument here: "overpowered spell doesn't matter because wizard can have concentration disrupted", ignoring the many ways a good wizard has of preventing that from happening.

It is funny that you completely disregard one of the big things about Concentration spells. Mind telling me how A (implying the wizard and ONLY the wizard) can somehow prevent Concentration checks when he is hit, the best is that he could have War Caster or Resilience (Con) (both feats which the DM can readily ban as the PHB says). Outside of magic items which a wizard has no way of obtaining and outside of a buddy to give him a lift the only way a wizard can fly is if he was the secret race of bird people.

So yeah I would like to hear this list of ways good wizards can prevent Concentration checks.


As has already been pointed out, once the wall is in place the wizard doesn't even have to be anywhere in the area. He could just Dimension Door out of there, if all else failed.

So you are saying that the battle goes as thus

Round 1: Bubble the BBEG
Round 2: Get out

I mean I really want to see the battle that needed the BBEG to be encased for 10 minutes and nothing else at all afterwards. If you mean that the wizard can escape to live another day after a TPK then obviously, maybe you have annoyed the BBEG a bit more by keeping him in his bubble for a few more minutes while the minions dump the bodies of your comrades in a pyre.




Missed the entire point, which is that in addition to its easy (ab)use in combat, it can be used to neutralize a whole category of threats where the PCs do not want combat but the NPCs do.

I would assume that is the entire point of the spell. Also you don't really neutralize at all since the guys in the bubble are safe and sound and will be fine after they are out so you just displaced them, not neutralize at all.




That's not a counter. It's at best an unreliable after-the-fact remedy. Especially if the wall is used to simply bypass a guard or other non-caster.

So then you bypass a guard and then you face up against the big bad... you just displaced one encounter for later instead of now. Of course now you have 10 minutes at most to finish the fight or you'll have the guards coming in as well.


No, it isn't actually a red flag at all. The reasons why have already been posted in the thread. And it's also completely irrelevant to the main topic at hand.

It would help if you gave a plausible scenario because as it stands, you presented a DM that made a bad play, gave ridiculous examples that in no way can be related to actual play (first it is a duel between a fighter and a wizard where the wizard bubbles the fighter for reasons, now it is wanting to bubble the guards before the BBEG).

Like I said, Wall of Force is a very good and powerful spell but in no way does it break the game, the same Concentration mechanic that you have derided against is the reason why it is balanced in power, the wizard can't do anything else with concentration and he is at the risk of losing the spell by damage (BTW the DC to lose the spell is 10 or half damage taken and you have to repeat this every attack you take, even with advantage on the saving throws I am pretty sure luck will not be on his side every time. Ooh and in case you don't know if you can incapacitate the wizard then he loses the Concentration no save so giving a particular status effect can also end Concentration as well)

[Steampunkette]

Dungeons -and- Dragons?

Whooooaa... slow down a second. I need to wrap my head around that one...

[Ashrym]

So you are saying that the battle goes as thus

Round 1: Bubble the BBEG
Round 2: Get out

I mean I really want to see the battle that needed the BBEG to be encased for 10 minutes and nothing else at all afterwards. If you mean that the wizard can escape to live another day...

Overpowered means the ability to lose fights and run away, didn't you know? ;-)

[charlesk]

It restrains something temporarily, and that crowd control option can help control incoming damage but it's only delaying the damage and making the encounter take longer by dividing it up.


In some encounters, that is correct. In others, the 10 minutes are more than enough to get done what you need to do and then get out of there. With no save.

And thanks for totally mischaracterizing what happened in this battle. I can see that continuing with this thread would be a complete waste of time.

[Shaofoo]

In some encounters, that is correct. In others, the 10 minutes are more than enough to get done what you need to do and then get out of there. With no save.

So you are saying that your party goes up to the BBEG and does the equivalent of a ding dong ditch? You just go up to the big bad then bubble then leave? You really do that?

And you basically trivialize everything so that everything resides on the big bad, what about the minions and other people with the big bad as well. Why can't they stop you from whatever it is that you are doing?

While there can be situations that bubbling a single person is key to everything I doubt you can use that to every effect, as it has been seen here, in fact I think it has been proven that such scenarios are very rare if they happen.



And thanks for totally mischaracterizing what happened in this battle. I can see that continuing with this thread would be a complete waste of time.

You should really better explain your scenarios, it isn't my fault that you leave big blanks to fill in.

[Vogonjeltz]

Dungeons with dragons in them? If you say so.

At any rate, this is tangential to the primary point about this spell.



If the wizard is that easy to jostle into a failed save, then the wizard isn't very good.

You are essentially using a strawman argument here: "overpowered spell doesn't matter because wizard can have concentration disrupted", ignoring the many ways a good wizard has of preventing that from happening. As has already been pointed out, once the wall is in place the wizard doesn't even have to be anywhere in the area. He could just Dimension Door out of there, if all else failed.



Missed the entire point, which is that in addition to its easy (ab)use in combat, it can be used to neutralize a whole category of threats where the PCs do not want combat but the NPCs do.



That's not a counter. It's at best an unreliable after-the-fact remedy. Especially if the wall is used to simply bypass a guard or other non-caster.



No, it isn't actually a red flag at all. The reasons why have already been posted in the thread. And it's also completely irrelevant to the main topic at hand.

Yes, dragons are typically in lairs, and laird typically don't have room to fly.

Concentration checks are constitution saves. First, wizards don't have proficiency, so their maximum outcome is 25. Provided the attack did more than 25 damage, it is impossible to make this save.

So, most wizards will not succeed on one save, let alone repetitive saves.

Your argument is the "no true Scotsman" fallacy in action.

And neutralizing implies they aren't in your face less than 10 minutes after the cast.

[Ralanr]

Looking at the pathfinder version of wall of force, I have to wonder why exactly we have a indestructible wall spell such as this. It seems so rip for abuse and argument, and the only thing that can deal with it is another caster (when did paper only become weak to other pieces of paper?).

Do you think setting a damage threshold and forcing a concentration save whenever the wall takes damage above tgat threshold would be too much of a nerf?

[charlesk]

Yes, dragons are typically in lairs, and laird typically don't have room to fly.


Take it up with WOTC because we've fought a lot of dragons in this campaign and all of their lairs have had room enough for them to fly.



Concentration checks are constitution saves. First, wizards don't have proficiency, so their maximum outcome is 25. Provided the attack did more than 25 damage, it is impossible to make this save.


The DC of a concentration save is half the damage. A 25 DC would require 50 points of damage. A 25 HP hit is a DC of only 12.

And War Caster is a thing.

And that's if you can find him, of course.



Your argument is the "no true Scotsman" fallacy in action.


What? LOL. This has nothing to do with that fallacy at all.

Man, I dunno what's happened to this place lately.

[Ralanr]

Take it up with WOTC because we've fought a lot of dragons in this campaign and all of their lairs have had room enough for them to fly.



The DC of a concentration save is half the damage. A 25 DC would require 50 points of damage. A 25 HP hit is a DC of only 12.

And War Caster is a thing.

And that's if you can find him, of course.



What? LOL. This has nothing to do with that fallacy at all.

Man, I dunno what's happened to this place lately.

It's become an argument in futility over the same things over and over again.

People stat how everything they can do is correct, getting very ridiculous at times and forgetting that the DM is human and no two DMs are the same.

We use extremes as examples. That's the main flaw of this forum ice noticed.

[SharkForce]

the very basis of the exp system tells you that one big encounter with more enemies is tougher than two small enemies. fighting a single enemy? XP multiplier for your encounter budget of one. make that two? suddenly it's a 1.5 multiplier. 3-6? oh, make that a 2.0 multiplier each.

3 monsters worth 100 exp each combined are considered as difficult a challenge as a single monster worth 600 exp.

being able to just section off one big fight into two small fights can take you from a deadly encounter down to an easy or medium encounter twice, where the biggest expected threat is that it might actually cost you resources but you will crush it easily.

seriously, think about that. it takes you from a fight that is considered to have a risk of TPK to being basically inconsequential.

with NO SAVE. magic resistance can't help you, legendary resistance can't help you. everything can either teleport, or the fight just became a joke.

that is a problem.

[Shaofoo]

Looking at the pathfinder version of wall of force, I have to wonder why exactly we have a indestructible wall spell such as this. It seems so rip for abuse and argument, and the only thing that can deal with it is another caster (when did paper only become weak to other pieces of paper?).

That and beating up the spell caster in question as well. Why is it that people seem to conveniently miss that piece of information? You can take down a Wall of Force if you are on the outside.





And War Caster is a thing.


Actually, no. Neither War Caster or Resilience is a thing at all. Feats are within the option of the DM to allow or deny in their campaign as they see fit.

The Dm can shut down feats and you have no say


And that's if you can find him, of course.

So the wizard yet again just dissapears as soon as he casts his bubble? I honestly do wish to see your fights where you bubble then escape immediately.



Man, I dunno what's happened to this place lately.

You are one to talk dude.

[Shaofoo]

the very basis of the exp system tells you that one big encounter with more enemies is tougher than two small enemies. fighting a single enemy? XP multiplier for your encounter budget of one. make that two? suddenly it's a 1.5 multiplier. 3-6? oh, make that a 2.0 multiplier each.

3 monsters worth 100 exp each combined are considered as difficult a challenge as a single monster worth 600 exp.

being able to just section off one big fight into two small fights can take you from a deadly encounter down to an easy or medium encounter twice, where the biggest expected threat is that it might actually cost you resources but you will crush it easily.

seriously, think about that. it takes you from a fight that is considered to have a risk of TPK to being basically inconsequential.

with NO SAVE. magic resistance can't help you, legendary resistance can't help you. everything can either teleport, or the fight just became a joke.

that is a problem.

That can be a problem... if beating up the caster to end the spell early wasn't an option and you decided to split the encounter difficulty evenly between the BBEG and the mooks.

You can't just say that the caster somehow is immune to everything as soon as he casts the Wall of Force, he fails his save and it is right back where they started.

[Ralanr]

the very basis of the exp system tells you that one big encounter with more enemies is tougher than two small enemies. fighting a single enemy? XP multiplier for your encounter budget of one. make that two? suddenly it's a 1.5 multiplier. 3-6? oh, make that a 2.0 multiplier each.

3 monsters worth 100 exp each combined are considered as difficult a challenge as a single monster worth 600 exp.

being able to just section off one big fight into two small fights can take you from a deadly encounter down to an easy or medium encounter twice, where the biggest expected threat is that it might actually cost you resources but you will crush it easily.

seriously, think about that. it takes you from a fight that is considered to have a risk of TPK to being basically inconsequential.

with NO SAVE. magic resistance can't help you, legendary resistance can't help you. everything can either teleport, or the fight just became a joke.

that is a problem.

That's the problem I've seen with most high level spell discussions. They make fights trivial, difficult or deadly encounters become free exp.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't the encounters become more difficult so they justify getting these spells?

Steampunkette suggested turning high level spells that are the subject of discussion into ritual spells. I like that, I think wall of force needs a weakness that doesn't come in the form of, "this specific spell"

Perhaps allow a Cha save to walk through it? Have your presence ignore the barrier.


Edit: usually people argue how BS it is to deal with while inside. I can imagine rolling a dex save to avoid it.

Oh wait, these are pointless because no monster has it inherently built in. A part of me wants wizards or someone to make an adventure path where the BBEG has nothing but these abusive spells and lax wording ripe for abuse.

Though there might be big negative consequences for that.

[Ashrym]

In some encounters, that is correct. In others, the 10 minutes are more than enough to get done what you need to do and then get out of there. With no save.

And thanks for totally mischaracterizing what happened in this battle. I can see that continuing with this thread would be a complete waste of time.

It gets complicated when your story changed from nearly the entire encounter to easily leaving before the spell ended.


This spell is arguably broken in that it has only a tiny handful of counters, all of which are magic-oriented. In an encounter last night we were able to neutralize an adult dragon for nearly an entire encounter with just this one spell.

Per your original story you would have still done nothing but split up the fight into 2 segments and still faced the dragon.

Leaving before the monster is free per your changed stance does nothing but open your party up to pursuit or retribution; it's still just a delay.

[Shaofoo]

That's the problem I've seen with most high level spell discussions. They make fights trivial, difficult or deadly encounters become free exp.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't the encounters become more difficult so they justify getting these spells?

You tell me, the encounter in question shouldn't have been ended quickly with Wall of Force in the first place.

I said to spread out the power more, make the BBEG be able to buff the mooks and lair actions as ways to mitigate such spells as well.
Yes it involves doing some work.


Steampunkette suggested turning high level spells that are the subject of discussion into ritual spells. I like that, I think wall of force needs a weakness that doesn't come in the form of, "this specific spell"

Turning it into a ritual spell does nothing at all.

All you are doing is adding an option to cast it for free by adding 10 minutes to the casting time. How is that going to help curb the power?

If you mean making it so that all high level spells have their casting time be increased to 10+ minutes across the board then they effectively become useless in battle. You just went the other way there.

Also the Wall of Force's weakness is Concentration, it doesn't need a particular spell just a good blow on the wizard should suffice.


Perhaps allow a Cha save to walk through it? Have your presence ignore the barrier.

I did say that a Dex save would be good, unless you are looking for a reason so that people don't dump Cha.

[Ralanr]

It gets complicated when your story changed from nearly the entire encounter to easily leaving before the spell ended.



Per your original story you would have still done nothing but split up the fight into 2 segments and still faced the dragon.

Leaving before the monster is free per your changed stance does nothing but open your party up to pursuit or retribution; it's still just a delay.

Having a dragon hunting you is not a fun endeavor.

Though I always assumed they just pushed the wall (and everything in between it) into a wall and didn't stop until there was paste. The caster can move it right?

[SharkForce]

That can be a problem... if beating up the caster to end the spell early wasn't an option and you decided to split the encounter difficulty evenly between the BBEG and the mooks.

You can't just say that the caster somehow is immune to everything as soon as he casts the Wall of Force, he fails his save and it is right back where they started.

what, is he standing there with a giant glowing arrow pointing at him? how do you even know who did it, or where they did it from? it has a range of 120 feet, can you search an area 120 feet in radius instantly? even if we suppose you know who did *and* where they are, how do you get to them instantly?

*maybe* you can get to them. maybe. *if* you know who they are, *and* you know where they are, *and* you can get to them, *and* they don't fail their save, then it won't last the full 10 minutes, but can easily last the 3-5 rounds that people have mentioned as typical duration for a combat.


that's a hell of a lot of points of failure we're assuming are supposed to be what keeps this spell in check, when just about any other effect starts off by letting you try to actually avoid being screwed, *then* lets you try and disrupt it as well.

look, i like wizards, i like powerful wizards, and i wouldn't like this game if people nerfed wizards into the ground because they'd rather do that than have fighters be as awesome in their own way as wizards are in their own way.

but there comes a time when a strategy gets to be too easy, and it ruins things. there is no sense of accomplishment in using wall of force to shrug off deadly encounters. all i did was press the "i win" button. there is no tension, no sense that this might not do what i want it to do, it's just an automatic success at turning an encounter into a joke. there's no real thought required, i just find a group of enemies and split them off from their allies, then steamroll the encounter.

that is a problem.

[Ralanr]

You tell me, the encounter in question shouldn't have been ended quickly with Wall of Force in the first place.

I said to spread out the power more, make the BBEG be able to buff the mooks and lair actions as ways to mitigate such spells as well.
Yes it involves doing some work.



Turning it into a ritual spell does nothing at all.

All you are doing is adding an option to cast it for free by adding 10 minutes to the casting time. How is that going to help curb the power?

If you mean making it so that all high level spells have their casting time be increased to 10+ minutes across the board then they effectively become useless in battle. You just went the other way there.

Also the Wall of Force's weakness is Concentration, it doesn't need a particular spell just a good blow on the wizard should suffice.



I did say that a Dex save would be good, unless you are looking for a reason so that people don't dump Cha.

Considering the amount of classes that use Cha in 5e, it's not the dump stat it once was. I just think thematically it fits. Charisma is your presence on the world after all, and charisma saves against magic are a thing.

No reason it can't have two different saving throws. With how people seem to use it, it should have more weaknesses.

[charlesk]

the very basis of the exp system tells you that one big encounter with more enemies is tougher than two small enemies. fighting a single enemy? XP multiplier for your encounter budget of one. make that two? suddenly it's a 1.5 multiplier. 3-6? oh, make that a 2.0 multiplier each.

3 monsters worth 100 exp each combined are considered as difficult a challenge as a single monster worth 600 exp.

being able to just section off one big fight into two small fights can take you from a deadly encounter down to an easy or medium encounter twice, where the biggest expected threat is that it might actually cost you resources but you will crush it easily.

seriously, think about that. it takes you from a fight that is considered to have a risk of TPK to being basically inconsequential.

with NO SAVE. magic resistance can't help you, legendary resistance can't help you. everything can either teleport, or the fight just became a joke.

that is a problem.

Yep. But there seem to be some folks who simply can't or won't understand this. Worse, some seem to have some bizarre need to defend "RAW" as if the PHB were some sort of holy book. It's kind of amazing the contortions some will put themselves through to do this, actually.

We did end up having to run from this fight. One main reason why is that I only thought about using Wall of Force on the dragon half-way through. If I had thought of it at the start, we'd have won.

Kind of makes the point.

I'm a player in this game, not the DM. Nerfing this spell reduces our party's power. I am offering to the DM to do it simply because I don't want every fight to automatically begin with "I put the boss in a bubble".

[Pex]

the very basis of the exp system tells you that one big encounter with more enemies is tougher than two small enemies. fighting a single enemy? XP multiplier for your encounter budget of one. make that two? suddenly it's a 1.5 multiplier. 3-6? oh, make that a 2.0 multiplier each.

3 monsters worth 100 exp each combined are considered as difficult a challenge as a single monster worth 600 exp.

being able to just section off one big fight into two small fights can take you from a deadly encounter down to an easy or medium encounter twice, where the biggest expected threat is that it might actually cost you resources but you will crush it easily.

seriously, think about that. it takes you from a fight that is considered to have a risk of TPK to being basically inconsequential.

with NO SAVE. magic resistance can't help you, legendary resistance can't help you. everything can either teleport, or the fight just became a joke.

that is a problem.

So a wizard is supposed to just let the TPK happen? If a wizard casting Wall Of Force turns a TPK into a fight the party has a decent chance of winning, I call that the wizard wonderfully contributing to the party's interest of saving the day. The spell did its job.

[Shaofoo]

what, is he standing there with a giant glowing arrow pointing at him? how do you even know who did it, or where they did it from? it has a range of 120 feet, can you search an area 120 feet in radius instantly? even if we suppose you know who did *and* where they are, how do you get to them instantly?

You mean the guy that did both verbal and somatic components consistent to casting a spell is actually casting a spell? Well color me shocked!

Yes it is that easy who cast the Wall of Force if anyone can see and hear the caster in question.

If the mooks aren't so smart then you might have a point but I usually assume that such people have knowledge as to the ins and outs of such things.


*maybe* you can get to them. maybe. *if* you know who they are, *and* you know where they are, *and* you can get to them, *and* they don't fail their save, then it won't last the full 10 minutes, but can easily last the 3-5 rounds that people have mentioned as typical duration for a combat.

It can easily be 3-5 as it can easily be 0. An unlucky fail after being shot by an arrow and the big bad is free. You can't guarantee 3-5. Also like I said, people will know that a spell has been cast and anyone that can put two and two will probably know that the guy that did the fancy arcane gestures put the big bubble of force.



that's a hell of a lot of points of failure we're assuming are supposed to be what keeps this spell in check, when just about any other effect starts off by letting you try to actually avoid being screwed, *then* lets you try and disrupt it as well.

Power Words don't give you that option either, and that one affects anyone that has a low enough HP.

And Wall of Force automatically fails if you are big enough anyway, and like I said a Dex save might be good as well.


look, i like wizards, i like powerful wizards, and i wouldn't like this game if people nerfed wizards into the ground because they'd rather do that than have fighters be as awesome in their own way as wizards are in their own way.

but there comes a time when a strategy gets to be too easy, and it ruins things. there is no sense of accomplishment in using wall of force to shrug off deadly encounters. all i did was press the "i win" button. there is no tension, no sense that this might not do what i want it to do, it's just an automatic success at turning an encounter into a joke. there's no real thought required, i just find a group of enemies and split them off from their allies, then steamroll the encounter.

that is a problem.

Wall of Force can be used to great effect yes.

Can Wall of Force be used to trivialize encounters? yes.

But Wall of Force doesn't break the game as a whole.

It can be mitigated even if the creatures have no magic of their own. If you have to use other spells and resources to be able to keep up Wall of Force then Wall of Force itself becomes much less powerful on its own.

There are a ton of spells in the game that can turn most difficult scenarios into an IWIN, even a good damaging spell cast at the right time could trivialize certain encounters.

If having one potential scenario be trivialized is requirement for the spell to be broken then you might as well just take nearly all spells and call them broken.

[Pex]

If having one potential scenario be trivialized is requirement for the spell to be broken then you might as well just take nearly all spells and call them broken.

Unfortunately some people, not accusing anyone in this thread, believe just that.

[Shaofoo]

Yep. But there seem to be some folks who simply can't or won't understand this. Worse, some seem to have some bizarre need to defend "RAW" as if the PHB were some sort of holy book. It's kind of amazing the contortions some will put themselves through to do this, actually.

Ummm, in D&D the PHB is kinda necessary to play the game D&D because it has the rules required to play D&D. I find it extremely funny that you defend the module that was used to run your game as an unchangeable source and yet now the PHB is inconsequential?

I honestly wonder what is your point at all? Didn't you say earlier that this was all a waste of time? Why are you really here?


We did end up having to run from this fight. One main reason why is that I only thought about using Wall of Force on the dragon half-way through. If I had thought of it at the start, we'd have won.


So you didn't win at all now? I thought you spanked that encounter hard from the get go.

No really I thought you said you put the dragon in as one of the first things, now the dragon had a couple of rounds on the party before being bubbled?



I'm a player in this game, not the DM. Nerfing this spell reduces our party's power. I am offering to the DM to do it simply because I don't want every fight to automatically begin with "I put the boss in a bubble".

Then what's stopping you from not putting the boss in a bubble, if you feel that the spell is too strong then why don't you prevent yourself from casting it. Maybe have it as a character point that the character doesn't wish to use Wall of Force because he fears the power from such a spell and will only use it as a last resort.

Cause I doubt any of the said changes will stop you from putting the boss in a bubble, maybe you should not put the boss in a bubble, show some restraint.

[charlesk]

Unfortunately some people, not accusing anyone in this thread, believe just that.

Except that isn't the objection to Wall of Force, which can trivialize a lot of potential scenarios.

[Shaofoo]

Except that isn't the objection to Wall of Force, which can trivialize a lot of potential scenarios.

It could but just as easily it could not.

Wall of Force can be brought down the round it was put up if the Wizard was unlucky with a Concentration saving throw.

Might as well say Longswords can trivialize encounters because a couple of crits could kill off the big bad

[Ralanr]

It could but just as easily it could not.

Wall of Force can be brought down the round it was put up if the Wizard was unlucky with a Concentration saving throw.

Might as well say Longswords can trivialize encounters because a couple of crits could kill off the big bad

Yes, because a 20 for a crit is as difficult as passing a DC 10 con check.

[Shaofoo]

Yes, because a 20 for a crit is as difficult as passing a DC 10 con check.

I thought the point of this all was imagining encounters where anything can be trivialized with one action. It doesn't matter if one action occurs less often than another if it has the chance of even happening once then it is broken and should be nerfed accordingly. At least that is the takeaway of this entire thread

[Ralanr]

I thought the point of this all was imagining encounters where anything can be trivialized with one action. It doesn't matter if one action occurs less often than another if it has the chance of even happening once then it is broken and should be nerfed accordingly. At least that is the takeaway of this entire thread

So you think that just critting with a weapon is an accurate example of trivializing an encounter?

Critting just rolls the damage die twice. A wall of force apparently blocks off dragons without fail.

The damage from a crit can be reduced. Dragons don't know spells, so they won't know disintegrate, "just the right spell for the problem" needed to end it.

There were mooks, but if there weren't then the encounter against the deadly dragon feels kinda pointless. And if you say they can't hurt the dragon while its trapped. I've seen people argue that aoe damage does full damage through 3 inch cracks.

If taking away critting punishes everyone, so if it was thought to make combat trivial then everyone would suffer.

I think only wizards and sorcerers get access to wall of force, and the sorcerer has been argued to not have enough slots to consider it. Nerfing that spell only hurts them.

And it doesn't weaken their class at all. Wizard is built around its supreme versatility. Nerfing a few "IWIN" spells doesn't weaken that at all, it just means they should rely on more spells.

Wizards rely on a lot of spells though! Well I bet they wouldn't have a problem with using a different spell to deal with the situation. After all, that's what they bring to the table.

[Hawkstar]

Or, instead, we could just remove/fix those "Magic = auto-win" spells like Wall of Force, Simulacrum, Wish, etc. The game then works perfectly fine.
But then it stops being D&D.

[Steampunkette]

It would take a lot more than altering how a handful of high end spells work to make the game anything but D&D.

[SharkForce]

the thing is, you can't just *choose* to get a critical. you must either earn it (if you're an assassin, by sneaking, or by rendering a target paralyzed or similar), which the opponent can actually attempt to oppose, or just get lucky. you can't just plan that you're going to get a crit, you can't plan that it will deal enough damage to kill anything, and a creature can use their HP to defend against it (and also to defend against power word spells).

this is not the case with wall of force. there isn't even any *actual* rules support for wall of force not being able to trap a dragon, it's just people insisting that it doesn't because they've decided it doesn't. the dragon doesn't choose where to end up, the caster does, so if the caster decides the dragon ends up inside (where it can fit just fine), that's where the dragon ends up, according to the rules. you can houserule it, but ultimately, that's still beside the point, because there's plenty of other things that *do* fit, and this spell can instantly break any encounter that uses said creatures in sufficient quantity to reflect an actual increase in difficulty with no save.

and yes, it isn't remotely guaranteed that everyone will know who cast the spell. you need to speak, but you don't need to shout. you need to see your target, but you don't need to be in plain sight. in fact, arcane tricksters explicitly get a bonus when casting a spell while hidden, so we know for an absolute certainty that you can cast a spell while hidden.

this isn't trivializing some niche scenario, either. it's trivializing basically any fight where the enemy doesn't have one of the handful of specific counters. they either have disintegrate, or they can teleport, or they can counterspell it before it goes off (requires being in range, having an appropriate spell prepared and a spell slot of sufficient level available, having a reaction available, being aware that a spell is being cast, and possibly making a successful check). or, the fight just turned into a joke. we're not talking about some unusual occasion that this spell is useful for, it trivializes the situation that the vast majority of the rules in this game are designed to revolve around.

and yes, you can choose to not use it. that doesn't make the spell balanced, it just clearly demonstrates that the spell is a problem.

there needs to be some risk involved. a spell that works 100% of the time with only a tiny handful of (rare) ways to deal with it, and makes fights into a joke and isn't even a particularly costly resource should not exist.

we can either make that spell not exist (undesirable, wall of force is a staple of D&D and has been for several editions), or we can change that spell so that it doesn't have all of those features while still leaving it a good spell.

[Ralanr]

the thing is, you can't just *choose* to get a critical. you must either earn it (if you're an assassin, by sneaking, or by rendering a target paralyzed or similar), which the opponent can actually attempt to oppose, or just get lucky. you can't just plan that you're going to get a crit, you can't plan that it will deal enough damage to kill anything, and a creature can use their HP to defend against it (and also to defend against power word spells).

this is not the case with wall of force. there isn't even any *actual* rules support for wall of force not being able to trap a dragon, it's just people insisting that it doesn't because they've decided it doesn't. the dragon doesn't choose where to end up, the caster does, so if the caster decides the dragon ends up inside (where it can fit just fine), that's where the dragon ends up, according to the rules. you can houserule it, but ultimately, that's still beside the point, because there's plenty of other things that *do* fit, and this spell can instantly break any encounter that uses said creatures in sufficient quantity to reflect an actual increase in difficulty with no save.

and yes, it isn't remotely guaranteed that everyone will know who cast the spell. you need to speak, but you don't need to shout. you need to see your target, but you don't need to be in plain sight. in fact, arcane tricksters explicitly get a bonus when casting a spell while hidden, so we know for an absolute certainty that you can cast a spell while hidden.

this isn't trivializing some niche scenario, either. it's trivializing basically any fight where the enemy doesn't have one of the handful of specific counters. they either have disintegrate, or they can teleport, or they can counterspell it before it goes off (requires being in range, having an appropriate spell prepared and a spell slot of sufficient level available, having a reaction available, being aware that a spell is being cast, and possibly making a successful check). or, the fight just turned into a joke. we're not talking about some unusual occasion that this spell is useful for, it trivializes the situation that the vast majority of the rules in this game are designed to revolve around.

and yes, you can choose to not use it. that doesn't make the spell balanced, it just clearly demonstrates that the spell is a problem.

there needs to be some risk involved. a spell that works 100% of the time with only a tiny handful of (rare) ways to deal with it, and makes fights into a joke and isn't even a particularly costly resource should not exist.

we can either make that spell not exist (undesirable, wall of force is a staple of D&D and has been for several editions), or we can change that spell so that it doesn't have all of those features while still leaving it a good spell.

I think two different types of saves (that the opponent can chose from) and a damage threshold that can force concentration rolls when passed would work.

If you're concentrating on this thing, you should probably get some feedback when something hits it hard.

Like the Tarrasque. It probably wouldn't get trapped in there, but wall of force (even with those nerfs) would still be a pretty good shield for when you can't get out of the way in time.

[Kryx]

But then it stops being D&D.
If D&D requires spells to be utterly broken then I'm fine with playing a balanced version of D&D.

[Shaofoo]

So you think that just critting with a weapon is an accurate example of trivializing an encounter?

If I can imagine it, a crit can trivialize an encounter.That is the name of the game no?


Critting just rolls the damage die twice. A wall of force apparently blocks off dragons without fail.

Actually, it fails against big dragons if you've been paying attention. It will always fail, only leaving a bubble in its place for your trouble


The damage from a crit can be reduced. Dragons don't know spells, so they won't know disintegrate, "just the right spell for the problem" needed to end it.

Actually, being 40 feet long is enough for them to get out of this. No spells needed at all from the dragon. This isn't a problem at all


There were mooks, but if there weren't then the encounter against the deadly dragon feels kinda pointless. And if you say they can't hurt the dragon while its trapped. I've seen people argue that aoe damage does full damage through 3 inch cracks.

The Wall of Force is unbroken if you choose a dome, also if you leave cracks then what is stopping the dragon from breathing through the cracks again?


I think only wizards and sorcerers get access to wall of force, and the sorcerer has been argued to not have enough slots to consider it. Nerfing that spell only hurts them.

Woah woah there, maybe you should consider which version you are playing

First of all only Wizards can learn Wall of Force (and by extension Bards can too)

Second full casters have the same number of slots, Bards, Clerics, Druids, Sorcerers and Wizards all have the same number of slots at all times.

Also third nerfing the spell hurts no one at all. I am arguing against the reasoning that if you can trivialize an encounter then you must nerf it.


And it doesn't weaken their class at all. Wizard is built around its supreme versatility. Nerfing a few "IWIN" spells doesn't weaken that at all, it just means they should rely on more spells.

I doubt if you were to ban the spell altogether you'd be nerfing the wizard that much.


the thing is, you can't just *choose* to get a critical. you must either earn it (if you're an assassin, by sneaking, or by rendering a target paralyzed or similar), which the opponent can actually attempt to oppose, or just get lucky. you can't just plan that you're going to get a crit, you can't plan that it will deal enough damage to kill anything, and a creature can use their HP to defend against it (and also to defend against power word spells).

Well can you choose to succeed on your saving throw?

You can't just go "Oh saving throw, don't bother I auto succeed". Sure a crit is less likely than making a DC 10 save but it is possible but that doesn't make it a sure thing, it is just as ridiculous saying "Ha you rely on this random chance to succeed, now if you'll excuse me I'll rely on this random chance to succeed"


this is not the case with wall of force. there isn't even any *actual* rules support for wall of force not being able to trap a dragon, it's just people insisting that it doesn't because they've decided it doesn't.

Well because you choose to ignore the PHB as I said, you have yet to actually refute it like I refuted your earlier points, but then again people have been ignoring the Concentration mechanic as a key weakness, even hand waiving it.

I guess people really want to have dragons in bubbles


the dragon doesn't choose where to end up, the caster does, so if the caster decides the dragon ends up inside (where it can fit just fine), that's where the dragon ends up, according to the rules.

So then you agree with the Pokeball version of the spell where it is just big enough to fit in all the meat of the dragon and crushing it.

You can't force a dragon to squeeze through, I already mentioned that.


you can houserule it, but ultimately, that's still beside the point, because there's plenty of other things that *do* fit, and this spell can instantly break any encounter that uses said creatures in sufficient quantity to reflect an actual increase in difficulty with no save.

So then where are the mooks to help out the big bad again? I have given my piece on the matter.


and yes, it isn't remotely guaranteed that everyone will know who cast the spell. you need to speak, but you don't need to shout. you need to see your target, but you don't need to be in plain sight. in fact, arcane tricksters explicitly get a bonus when casting a spell while hidden, so we know for an absolute certainty that you can cast a spell while hidden.

So is the wizard in the middle of a battle or is he now in a covert ops mission? So now the Wizard has perfect stealth at all times.

So the spell is broken if somehow the Wizard is able to sneak up on the target to bubble?

Also you can do whatever hidden, doesn't mean that you stay hidden after the fact.


this isn't trivializing some niche scenario, either. it's trivializing basically any fight where the enemy doesn't have one of the handful of specific counters. they either have disintegrate, or they can teleport, or they can counterspell it before it goes off (requires being in range, having an appropriate spell prepared and a spell slot of sufficient level available, having a reaction available, being aware that a spell is being cast, and possibly making a successful check). or, the fight just turned into a joke. we're not talking about some unusual occasion that this spell is useful for, it trivializes the situation that the vast majority of the rules in this game are designed to revolve around.

Or there is the counter of just beating up on the Wizard as well to remove it, no magic needed at all. But I guess you play some Concentration-less version of the spell. Really at this point I am feeling that this is just one big hate party for Wall of Force, you don't care so much for balance than just looking for a reason to nerf Wall of Force. If you wish to nerf Wall of Force then fine, you can do that but don't go claiming that you are doing it in the name of balance. Lack of mastery of the game rules is not reason to nerf a spell.


and yes, you can choose to not use it. that doesn't make the spell balanced, it just clearly demonstrates that the spell is a problem.

If it thinks it breaks the game then it is his choice to use the broken spell or not. I doubt any nerfs will stop the wizard from casting it beyond making so weak as to being pointless.

I was hoping to make it into a character building scenario but I guess that is too much to ask.


there needs to be some risk involved. a spell that works 100% of the time with only a tiny handful of (rare) ways to deal with it, and makes fights into a joke and isn't even a particularly costly resource should not exist.

Well in this case the spell should've worked 0% of the time but then again you wish to handwave everything away so that the spell does work 100% of the time. Also damage to wizards is rare? Like I said, you believe that cases where the spell does work makes the spell broken, ignoring the times where the spell will always fail. Like I said, if the spell breaks even one encounter then the spell is broken and should be scrubbed.


we can either make that spell not exist (undesirable, wall of force is a staple of D&D and has been for several editions), or we can change that spell so that it doesn't have all of those features while still leaving it a good spell.

Nah I am pretty sure it is very desirable to remove the spell in your case. I am not sure why you are acting like this is some big dillema since you've been ignoring the actual weaknesses of Wall of Force and building up its strengths that all encounters are with human sized big bads and mooks that don't know anything about magic or even wanting the desire to attack the wizard. It is obvious you want to see the spell go.

If you have a personal issue against Wall of Force then that is fine.


If D&D requires spells to be utterly broken then I'm fine with playing a balanced version of D&D.

So I am guessing you are a fan of 4e? I like 4e myself as well.

[Kryx]

So I am guessing you are a fan of 4e? I like 4e myself as well.
I thought 4e did a lot of things great (cool powers for everyone), but found the math taxes, math treadmill, and combat duration to be unbearable. I don't remember spells in 4e as well, but I feel they were less powerful then 3.X due to the nature of powers.

I just think D&D is more fun without broken encounter ending spells. Some people like them. Both opinions are valid.

[SharkForce]

shaofoo, you keep insisting that dragons cannot be made to squeeze into a wall of force dome/sphere, but there is no rules text to support that (not that they need to; a dragon in a 15x15 area does not need to squeeze, after all).

you can go on and on about how that isn't how it works, but you have absolutely no rules support. it's a reasonable house rule that you can't force a dragon to squeeze in (though again, that is not required, the wall is large enough to fit a dragon), but it is not supported by the actual rules.

the spell lets the caster decide where the dragon ends up. the dragon does not get to choose. it doesn't matter if it wants to shove its tail into the space where the wall is forming, as written, the tail, being part of the dragon, ends up where the caster wants, and the same thing happens to the head/neck.

and that is a problem, mostly because the dragon (or whatever else) has no way to resist.

and yes, there is a major difference between something that works randomly and works 100% of the time, even if the random thing can be made fairly frequent.

there is no use of cleverness, no risk, no planning, every fight just needs to start off with wall of force unless the fight is already so trivial there's no point.

you've listed a lot of *maybes* in how the group of mooks (who, remember, have just been reduced to an easy or maybe medium challenge for the party, so not exactly prime material for completely overrunning an enemy position) are going to get past every defense the wizard might have, including any other party members, and force him to fail a save. notice how there are many points of failure along the way. it is not an instant success, and in fact is quite far from it. that's interesting, and challenging, and exciting. or would be, if the remaining creatures were actually a noticeable threat. you just took one interesting challenge and turned it into two boring fights with near-zero chance of failure. and you didn't have to do anything special for it, just throw your broken OP spell and there goes any sense of difficulty.

(on a side note, if the dragon isn't flying because there's no room, the spell still allows you to easily block off the dragon. it does, after all, have a wall form as well).

[Shaofoo]

shaofoo, you keep insisting that dragons cannot be made to squeeze into a wall of force dome/sphere, but there is no rules text to support that (not that they need to; a dragon in a 15x15 area does not need to squeeze, after all).

you can go on and on about how that isn't how it works, but you have absolutely no rules support. it's a reasonable house rule that you can't force a dragon to squeeze in (though again, that is not required, the wall is large enough to fit a dragon), but it is not supported by the actual rules.

the spell lets the caster decide where the dragon ends up. the dragon does not get to choose. it doesn't matter if it wants to shove its tail into the space where the wall is forming, as written, the tail, being part of the dragon, ends up where the caster wants, and the same thing happens to the head/neck.

And you have no rules to support your decision either, in fact you are talking against the rules that I have said so before in the size.

And like I said and you have ignored just to make your case without thinking of the implications, you have invented the lethal Pokeball. What is stopping me from making the dome a foot in diameter and cram in all the dragon into one very very small sphere?

So you are saying that I could suck in a huge dragon into a small marble? Cause that is broken and that is what you are implying.

Cause for now the discussion was that it removed the dragon temporarily, not turn the dragon into thick paste. Is this what you were worried all this time?

And like I said, the size is supported by the rules and I have given reference as well. If you wish to ignore it just to make your point then I don't see any reason why should I take your points seriously if you just are on an agenda to nerf Wall of Force for reasons that have nothing to do with balance.



and that is a problem, mostly because the dragon (or whatever else) has no way to resist.

and yes, there is a major difference between something that works randomly and works 100% of the time, even if the random thing can be made fairly frequent.

there is no use of cleverness, no risk, no planning, every fight just needs to start off with wall of force unless the fight is already so trivial there's no point.


you've listed a lot of *maybes* in how the group of mooks (who, remember, have just been reduced to an easy or maybe medium challenge for the party, so not exactly prime material for completely overrunning an enemy position) are going to get past every defense the wizard might have, including any other party members, and force him to fail a save.

Yes maybes, none which you have refuted me.

So you are saying that the party members will be trying to defend the wizard so he doesn't have to make a save? The focus became from normal combat to protect the wizard.

No wonder you love wizards so much, they are guys with all the defenses and people will give their lives so that they may live.

And yes the spell is broken if everyone and every single resource is devoted so that the Wall can be kept up cause that is the true mark of a broken spell right there.

And yes apparently the wizard is the broken one if he has so much stuff that nothing can get pass him.


notice how there are many points of failure along the way. it is not an instant success, and in fact is quite far from it. that's interesting, and challenging, and exciting. or would be, if the remaining creatures were actually a noticeable threat. you just took one interesting challenge and turned it into two boring fights with near-zero chance of failure. and you didn't have to do anything special for it, just throw your broken OP spell and there goes any sense of difficulty.

(on a side note, if the dragon isn't flying because there's no room, the spell still allows you to easily block off the dragon. it does, after all, have a wall form as well).

Yes it could turn a hard encounter into an easy encounter if it is used right, it could also be a waste of resources when you either have bad luck or the bad guy does have ways to get around it. It can go both ways here.

You seem to hate spells that change the encounter from hard to easy, maybe you should just rip off the entirety of Chapter 11 from your PHB and save yourself the headaches cause I can't think of a spell that doesn't have a scenario where the spell can trivialize it.

[charlesk]

SharkForce, I admire your stamina. I stopped responding to that individual about two pages back.

"If the wall cuts through a creature's space when it appears, the creature is pushed to one side of the wall (your choice which side)." Seems like pretty plain English to me.

I'm grateful to those who at least acknowledged the issue, even if they don't agree with me on its severity. We haven't decided yet how we're going to deal with it.

[Shaofoo]

SharkForce, I admire your stamina. I stopped responding to that individual about two pages back.

"If the wall cuts through a creature's space when it appears, the creature is pushed to one side of the wall (your choice which side)." Seems like pretty plain English to me.

I'm grateful to those who at least acknowledged the issue, even if they don't agree with me on its severity. We haven't decided yet how we're going to deal with it.

Then he didn't notice that you can turn the dragon into goo if you reduce the dimensions of the orb.

Good thing that this guy doesn't know or his DM would really have his hands full with him wanting to turn every single guy into jelly.

[Kryx]

Charlesk I've learned to ignore those who ignore the rules as well. :)

I spent some time looking at Pathfinder's Wall of Force (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/wall-of-force) for ideas.

A wall of force is immune to dispel magic, although a mage's disjunction can still dispel it. A wall of force can be damaged by spells as normal, except for disintegrate, which automatically destroys it. It can be damaged by weapons and supernatural abilities, but a wall of force has hardness 30 and a number of hit points equal to 20 per caster level. Contact with a sphere of annihilation or rod of cancellation instantly destroys a wall of force.
It had 30 harness (damage reduction) and 180 hp(9*20) at the time of casting. I think 5 AC (10-5 for 0 dex), 150 hp, a damage threshold of 15, and immunity to force, psychic, poison, and necrotic is the best choice. Scale it so it adds 25 hp per level.

[Shaofoo]

Charlesk I've learned to ignore those who ignore the rules as well. :)

I spent some time looking at Pathfinder's Wall of Force (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/wall-of-force) for ideas.

It had 30 harness (damage reduction) and 180 hp(9*20) at the time of casting. I think 5 AC (10-5 for 0 dex), 150 hp, a damage threshold of 15, and immunity to force, psychic, poison, and necrotic is the best choice. Scale it so it adds 30 hp per level.

Yeah but now the problem is that you can jelly anyone inside with a small enough wall of force.

Also it is funny that the Pathfinder version doesn't have a dome version and the spell automatically fails if the wall touches anything as it is being formed.

[SharkForce]

the problem is not that wall of force can trivialize *a* situation.

it is that wall of force can trivialize *many* situations, and those situations are extremely common.

with something like web, you can massively impact the course of a fight. maybe. there's a chance of it anyways.

but you need to know your enemy. do they have amazing dex saves? if so, maybe web isn't a great choice. do they have legendary resistance? if so, web is really only going to burn off a use of that at most (maybe not even). are they super strong? if so, there's a very good chance that web is only going to delay them a round or two. do they have access to fire and a decent pool of HP? there's a very good chance that web is only going to last one round, with no realistic chance of it lasting two. does the enemy use mostly ranged attacks? there's a chance that your spell is really just going to give them disadvantage on every attack (still significant) rather than prevent them from attacking at all.

and then, if everything else lines up, web is still subject to concentration. it is a good spell. it needs to be used well, it doesn't solve every problem all the time, but it *can* change a battle if used well, and enemies can do something about it.

that's a lot of points of failure, or at least reduced success, from web. with wall of force, we see only 2:

1) can they disintegrate things
2) can the target(s) teleport

and no, the entire party doesn't revolve around protecting the wizard. but you *did* just turn the fight into an easy-medium one, so if the rest of the party even tries at all, they're going to mop the floor with the enemies, and the enemies are going to have a hard time surviving long enough to get to the caster.





as to wall of force being used to crush things: creates an infinite loop if you go too small, actually. it doesn't say it can compress them into a singularity, it just says you choose where they end up. if there is not enough room on the inside of the sphere, the sphere will continue intersecting with the dragon until you choose a side where the dragon does not intersect.

the thing is, there is room inside a wall of force for a dragon, just like there is room for a dragon in any other 15x15 space. yes, the dragon has a tail and a neck (and probably wings) that can extend beyond that, but the rules are telling us that a dragon can sit in a hole that is 15x15 and it doesn't have to squeeze in any way to do so. it will have to keep its tail and head (and wings) tucked in, but it can do that, comfortably, without needing to squeeze, and the spell gives the caster the choice of whether that happens or not right now, with the target having no input whatsoever. if the dragon was stuck with an enemy in that area, it even has room enough to fight without being hampered in any way by the amount of space available. so not only does the dragon fit, it fits quite comfortably, with room to spare.

[Shaofoo]

as to wall of force being used to crush things: creates an infinite loop if you go too small, actually. it doesn't say it can compress them into a singularity, it just says you choose where they end up. if there is not enough room on the inside of the sphere, the sphere will continue intersecting with the dragon until you choose a side where the dragon does not intersect.


So then what is it, when does it become that I can fit a dragon inside a 10 foot wide bubble but not inside a 1 foot bubble? You said I choose where it ends up and I say it ends up inside. What is stopping me? If you are saying that the area is too little for all matter to enter that can be resolved by increasing the area until all dragon matter can fit in.

So then what is it? How would you resolve this if you were to DM this?



the thing is, there is room inside a wall of force for a dragon, just like there is room for a dragon in any other 15x15 space. yes, the dragon has a tail and a neck (and probably wings) that can extend beyond that, but the rules are telling us that a dragon can sit in a hole that is 15x15 and it doesn't have to squeeze in any way to do so. it will have to keep its tail and head (and wings) tucked in, but it can do that, comfortably, without needing to squeeze, and the spell gives the caster the choice of whether that happens or not right now, with the target having no input whatsoever. if the dragon was stuck with an enemy in that area, it even has room enough to fight without being hampered in any way by the amount of space available. so not only does the dragon fit, it fits quite comfortably, with room to spare.

It could fit in comfortable if the dragon wants to. If the dragon wishes to go through such a space it can but if it doesn't want to then he will stick out and not change his body. Nothing says that if I choose a size for the creature to go through it has to fit in easily, it just has to go through so that means that you must put in enough force until it can get in.

But like I said lets forget about concentration. The true problem now is that the Wall of Force is a save or die with no save. That is what you guys are telling me right now. Doesn't matter if Wall of Force has 1 HP because the creature in question will be crunched as soon as it is in a small enough space.

[charlesk]

as to wall of force being used to crush things: creates an infinite loop if you go too small, actually. it doesn't say it can compress them into a singularity, it just says you choose where they end up. if there is not enough room on the inside of the sphere, the sphere will continue intersecting with the dragon until you choose a side where the dragon does not intersect.


I'm not aware of any spell where there's a matter of things fitting or not that you can use them to crush things. Many spells state explicitly that you cannot damage a creature by forcing their space in this manner. This one should, but doesnt. Still, I wouldn't expect a DM to allow that, and I'd never even ask.

Wall of Force is especially ridiculous against any high-CR creature that isn't a spellcaster and isn't huge or larger.

You go to rescue the damsel in distress only to find.. she's being guarded by a pit fiend in the room in front of her cell! Oh no! It's CR20 and does massive damage with its fists and at-will fireballs!

Put up a wall, carry on.

[rhouck]

Charlesk I've learned to ignore those who ignore the rules as well. :)

I spent some time looking at Pathfinder's Wall of Force (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/wall-of-force) for ideas.

It had 30 harness (damage reduction) and 180 hp(9*20) at the time of casting. I think 5 AC (10-5 for 0 dex), 150 hp, a damage threshold of 15, and immunity to force, psychic, poison, and necrotic is the best choice. Scale it so it adds 30 hp per level.

Why does it have a worse AC (5 vs 15) and HP (150 versus 180) than Wall of Stone?

And what is a "damage threshold"? Where do rules for that appear? Is that damage reduction of 15? Or just that only hits above 15 do damage?

[charlesk]

Charlesk I've learned to ignore those who ignore the rules as well. :)


Not just that but looking to be argumentative, handwaving away objections, suggesting the issue is because of bad players (with no reason to do so), suggesting the players are not following the rules, etc. Not worth it.



I spent some time looking at Pathfinder's Wall of Force (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/wall-of-force) for ideas.

It had 30 harness (damage reduction) and 180 hp(9*20) at the time of casting. I think 5 AC (10-5 for 0 dex), 150 hp, a damage threshold of 15, and immunity to force, psychic, poison, and necrotic is the best choice. Scale it so it adds 30 hp per level.

Very interesting how different the Pathfinder rules are. For example they made it subject to damage from spells where the SRD (3.5) they did not.

Thanks.

rhouck: Threshold is in the DMG, in the rules for things like castle walls and ships. The idea is to allow only large hits to affect these massive objects, so any hit must do more damage than the threshold number to affect the object. If it clears the threshold, it all counts, and if not, none of it does. This allows a huge boulder from a giant to put a dent in a wall, while not allowing 30 kobolds to damage it by poking it with daggers. Some suggested using that here as well to avoid the same sort of issue.

[Shaofoo]

So I guess it won't crush because the DM will step in and not allow it.

Funny how when I tried to justify that a DM won't allow certain creatures to be contained I get "but the spell says this so it must do so no question!"

But now when I give an example that the spell must do this no question I get "Well the DM will probably stop this"

I guess I ended up breaking Wall of Force after all, I guess I take everything back that I said about Wall of Force not being broken, it is a horrible no save instant death spell.

You guys are right, Wall of Force is totally broken. But I don't think giving it hardness and HP is gonna help much :P

[rhouck]

You go to rescue the damsel in distress only to find.. she's being guarded by a pit fiend in the room in front of her cell! Oh no! It's CR20 and does massive damage with its fists and at-will fireballs!

Put up a wall, carry on.

This partly raises the issue that some of the monsters are poorly thought out. A Pit Fiend used to be able to teleport without error at will, once per round... which completely solves this problem. Just as giving older dragons back their innate spellcasting also solves the problem.

Removing spellcasting from monsters that traditionally had it ranks up there with high-CR creatures not having ranged attacks and thus being completely helpless versus flying opponents -- it's like WotC completely forgot about all the possible exploits that people have used for decades.

[Kryx]

Why does it have a worse AC (5 vs 15) and HP (150 versus 180) than Wall of Stone?
I was basing it on 10-5 from 0 dex.
I don't quite understand how Wall of Stone has 15 AC. I would reduce that to 5 and add damage threshold.

Basically on the version suggested earlier we stacked AC and Damage Threshold. It should be one or the other. Imo it shouldn't be hard to hit stationary objects, but it is hard to damage them.




I don't think giving it hardness and HP is gonna help much :P
This is my concern as well, which is why I lowered the HP from before.

200-300 HP, 15 AC, and 15 Damage Threshold would take like 10 rounds to get through. Far too many still.

[Shaofoo]

Actually why does the princess only have one Pit Fiend guarding her? Why only one single monster? I would say the encounter itself is convoluted if a single entity was somehow in charge of holding a valuable asset, even someone as powerful as a pit fiend and even if the Pit Fiend was the BBEG. What about the other devils surrounding the place to get to the princess? Wouldn't the pit fiend go out and investigate if he heard that there was an intruder, I would assume some minions would try to escape to sound the alarm and send the message.

If you have walk in fortress where princess is in Door 1 and pit fiend is in Door 2 ... was there any encounter that did something like this?

[Kryx]

This partly raises the issue that some of the monsters are poorly thought out. A Pit Fiend used to be able to teleport without error at will, once per round... which completely solves this problem. Just as giving older dragons back their innate spellcasting also solves the problem.

Removing spellcasting from monsters that traditionally had it ranks up there with high-CR creatures not having ranged attacks and thus being completely helpless versus flying opponents -- it's like WotC completely forgot about all the possible exploits that people have used for decades.
Interesting stuff - those creatures should likely have some of it added back, you're right.

[charlesk]

This partly raises the issue that some of the monsters are poorly thought out. A Pit Fiend used to be able to teleport without error at will, once per round... which completely solves this problem. Just as giving older dragons back their innate spellcasting also solves the problem.

Removing spellcasting from monsters that traditionally had it ranks up there with high-CR creatures not having ranged attacks and thus being completely helpless versus flying opponents -- it's like WotC completely forgot about all the possible exploits that people have used for decades.

All true. I cringed the first time I heard that dragons had their spellcasting removed. At least there are optional rules for adding them back.

Anyway, given the number of ways that Wall of Force can be abused (based on what it actually says, not made-up nonsense about it being a "death spell") it does seem more sensible to simply remove its invulnerability rather than trying to fix everything else. I mean, it's not like forcing a level 20 fighter to cool his heels for 10 minutes is any better...

[Ashrym]

Clarification1: The rules are specific in stating space is controlled area and not dimensions of the creature. Comments about size because of space are obviously incorrect as they directly violate that and why DM's simply determine if a creature fits as part of the rules interpretation / referee role.

The intent of the forced movement isn't inside / outside the sphere; it's to the left of the sphere, or right of, or whatever. The entire target moves the same direction. I can see the other interpretation as possible in theory but since it doesn't make sense to deliberately interpret any rule in such a way as to create a potential issue I would recommend players stop trying to create their own problems and use the interpretation that makes better sense by not creating such an issue. Duh.

There is a rule for a pit fiend to summon more devils. Use it. They are dukes of the hierarchy, after all. ;-)

Critical hits can make a difference, just not for everyone. A champion crits pretty often between higher rates and number of attacks, and assassins can do it pretty easily. Critical hits wasn't really the specific point so much as an example, and what they represent is a high damage attack, which are not uncommon.

Quite frankly, high damage burst options on melee moot a ton of spells because dead is the best status effect, and so much so that spell casters crap magical sparkles and drool in envy as they usually just watch someone else deal with what matters in an encounter.

[Once a Fool]

Well then explain to me how can a creature that is 15 feet long be able to attack twice its length with its tail? Does it shoot out like a lizard's tongue, is his neck actually like a spring that snaps much longer than usual?

I am not making things up, if you have a much better explanation on its tail and bite attacks than just the neck is 10 feet long and the tail is 15 feet long then I am willing to hear it.

For the record 15 by 15 is where the mass of the dragon is, the main body, everything else doesn't affect movement and thus isn't considered when putting it in the grid.

Except in unusual cases, such as with a gelatinous cube, the area that a creature takes up on a grid per the combat rules does not represent the actual volume of the creature (and certainly not merely the central mass of the creature). It represents the area that the creature controls. A creature is assumed to be moving within that controlled area. Thus, in order to attack into another creature's controlled area, the attacker is assumed to move to the adjacent edge of its controlled area and out into the threatened area. It is important to note that, during the attack, the two creatures are, at least in part, both sharing the same space.

To illustrate my point, I will apply the same argument you are making for the dragon to a halfling grappler (something which the rules allow, even if they don't encourage it): in order for the grappler to grab two goblins on either side of him, clearly he must be able to reach two enemies that are seperated by at least 5 feet. Obviously, the only way that this is possible is for the halflings' wingspan to exceed five feet. In other words, his wingspan must approach twice the halfling's height. This is not a problem, though, since the 5x5 foot square only represents where the halfling's main body is. Clearly, this claim is ridiculous. The only reasonable way for the halfling to be able to achieve this feat that the rules allow is through movement.

Since the area that the halfling controls and the area that he threatens are governed by the same rules as the dragon's, we can conclude that, unless the monster's description specifies otherwise (as the gelatinous cube's does--and as the dragon's does not), it both controls and threatens space in the same manner as the halfling: by moving within it. That the dragon has greater reach by virtue of its size is as much a product of the improved mobility that size grants as it is the length of its striking appendages.

[Shaofoo]

All true. I cringed the first time I heard that dragons had their spellcasting removed. At least there are optional rules for adding them back.

Anyway, given the number of ways that Wall of Force can be abused (based on what it actually says, not made-up nonsense about it being a "death spell") it does seem more sensible to simply remove its invulnerability rather than trying to fix everything else. I mean, it's not like forcing a level 20 fighter to cool his heels for 10 minutes is any better...

So I guess being trapped makes the spell broken but being killed is no big deal then.

I also kinda like how my interpretation of the spell is somehow being dismissed as nonsense. All I have yet to hear to refute my point is "The DM won't allow that". Basically the only thing stopping me is DM fiat.

But then again I should stop expecting a serious discussion in a hate party. I should've known that there was never any real intention into actual serious discussion and getting into the bottom of things. It is a shame because I would've thought that we could all learn a couple of things and become better at the games but I guess one must defend the honor of their DMs after all.

Instead we just turned a simple restrain spell into an instant death spell, so I guess good job?

[GiantOctopodes]

So I guess being trapped makes the spell broken but being killed is no big deal then.

I also kinda like how my interpretation of the spell is somehow being dismissed as nonsense. All I have yet to hear to refute my point is "The DM won't allow that". Basically the only thing stopping me is DM fiat.

But then again I should stop expecting a serious discussion in a hate party. I should've known that there was never any real intention into actual serious discussion and getting into the bottom of things. It is a shame because I would've thought that we could all learn a couple of things and become better at the games but I guess one must defend the honor of their DMs after all.

Instead we just turned a simple restrain spell into an instant death spell, so I guess good job?

"An invisible wall of force springs into existence at a point you choose within range.... If the wall cuts through a creature’s space when it appears, the creature is pushed to one side of the wall (your choice which side). Nothing can physically pass through the wall"

Nothing in that allows you to squeeze a creature into a smaller space. Instead, think of it this way. You create a 5' diameter hemisphere trying to encapsulate a dragon. The right edge of the wall cuts through the creature's space. You can choose for the dragon to be put on the right side of the aforementioned wall, or the left side. Choosing the left side puts the dragon in such a position to where the left edge of the wall still cuts through the dragon's space. You can choose for the dragon to be put on the left side of the aforementioned wall or the right side. Choosing the right side causes the right edge of the wall to still cut through the dragon's space. You can choose for the dragon to be put on the left side of the wall or the right side.

And so on and so forth. You get to choose every time, but the net result is that since there is no way for the dragon to be inside without a wall cutting through its space, you'll be left in an infinite loop of decisions until you put the dragon on the outside. I think the big thing you're missing in there is the fact the spell refers to a creature's space. Mechanically, that is what a creature occupies. In the same way that a person with a sword both occupies far less than 5' x 5' (leading to the hilarity of marching double file down 10' long hallways with apparently no gaps in between them) and far more than 5'x5' (after all, they are able to attack everyone within 5' of those squares with melee weapons), a creature's space is an abstraction. However, space matters a lot for this spell. Since it doesn't say you can force them to squeeze (in fact, it says the opposite, that they are pushed to one side or the other if the spell intersects the creature's space), in order to fit within a certain radius hemisphere, the hemisphere would need to be large enough for all the walls to border or be outside of the creature's space. If they are, it's inside. If it has enough space inside to contain the creature's space but it intersects that creature's space when the wall appears, it is possible to choose which side of the wall it appears on in such a way that the creature ends up within the hemisphere.

If it does not have enough internal area for the creature's space to be wholly encompassed by the walls without intersecting, you are caught in an infinite loop of choosing which side it is on until you inevitably choose the outside of the hemisphere. All of this is within the RAW and does not require DM adjudication. You cannot kill a creature with a Wall of Force, at least not directly, as the wording of the spell simply doesn't allow it.

[Shaofoo]

Nothing in that allows you to squeeze a creature into a smaller space. Instead, think of it this way. You create a 5' diameter hemisphere trying to encapsulate a dragon. The right edge of the wall cuts through the creature's space. You can choose for the dragon to be put on the right side of the aforementioned wall, or the left side. Choosing the left side puts the dragon in such a position to where the left edge of the wall still cuts through the dragon's space. You can choose for the dragon to be put on the left side of the aforementioned wall or the right side. Choosing the right side causes the right edge of the wall to still cut through the dragon's space. You can choose for the dragon to be put on the left side of the wall or the right side.

And so on and so forth. You get to choose every time, but the net result is that since there is no way for the dragon to be inside without a wall cutting through its space, you'll be left in an infinite loop of decisions until you put the dragon on the outside. I think the big thing you're missing in there is the fact the spell refers to a creature's space. Mechanically, that is what a creature occupies. In the same way that a person with a sword both occupies far less than 5' x 5' (leading to the hilarity of marching double file down 10' long hallways with apparently no gaps in between them) and far more than 5'x5' (after all, they are able to attack everyone within 5' of those squares with melee weapons), a creature's space is an abstraction. However, space matters a lot for this spell. Since it doesn't say you can force them to squeeze (in fact, it says the opposite, that they are pushed to one side or the other if the spell intersects the creature's space), in order to fit within a certain radius hemisphere, the hemisphere would need to be large enough for all the walls to border or be outside of the creature's space. If they are, it's inside. If it has enough space inside to contain the creature's space but it intersects that creature's space when the wall appears, it is possible to choose which side of the wall it appears on in such a way that the creature ends up within the hemisphere.

So what you are saying is that a 40 foot long dragon can't be ever encased in a Wall of Force unless he allows himself to be encased. Because RAW says the space it takes on a grid and the actual dimensions need not be one and the same so if the creature can extend somewhere up to 20 feet the moment the wall was cast then the wall will have to force him outside, right?



If it does not have enough internal area for the creature's space to be wholly encompassed by the walls without intersecting, you are caught in an infinite loop of choosing which side it is on until you inevitably choose the outside of the hemisphere. All of this is within the RAW and does not require DM adjudication. You cannot kill a creature with a Wall of Force, at least not directly, as the wording of the spell simply doesn't allow it.

Not to be too argumentative but you referenced RAW, mind pointing me where does in the rules it directly states that Wall of Force can't kill? Preferably a quote and page number, thank you.

[charlesk]

I'm starting to really understand how Roy Greenhilt feels sometimes. Especially in the strips that have a lot of yellow ink in them. :)

[Gurka]

Not to be too argumentative but you referenced RAW, mind pointing me where does in the rules it directly states that Wall of Force can't kill? Preferably a quote and page number, thank you.

Well, In what way would wall of force be ALLOWED to kill? How would it mechanically achieve it. It doesn't state that you may alter the size or shape after the initial casting. That means that whatever dimensions you start with are what you're stuck with through the course of the spell. I guess you could summon something harmful INSIDE the sphere with the target, like acid.

Asphyxiation takes a long time, and the oxygen available in a 20' sphere is enough to keep a single humanoid creature breathing for a long time. Much longer than 10 minutes.

How would you MECHANICALLY kill a target with it, given the restrictions on the spell? Also remember that "because it doesn't say I can't" isn't a justification. Spells do what they state they do, and nothing else. That means anything that isn't explicitly detailed in the spell requires DM approval to work.

[Shaofoo]

Well, In what way would wall of force be ALLOWED to kill? How would it mechanically achieve it. It doesn't state that you may alter the size or shape after the initial casting. That means that whatever dimensions you start with are what you're stuck with through the course of the spell. I guess you could summon something harmful INSIDE the sphere with the target, like acid.

Asphyxiation takes a long time, and the oxygen available in a 20' sphere is enough to keep a single humanoid creature breathing for a long time. Much longer than 10 minutes.

How would you MECHANICALLY kill a target with it, given the restrictions on the spell? Also remember that "because it doesn't say I can't" isn't a justification. Spells do what they state they do, and nothing else. That means anything that isn't explicitly detailed in the spell requires DM approval to work.

Just so you know I am with the option that if you can't fully put a creature in the Wall of Force he is shunted out. I don't really believe that you can mulch the creature. But at the same time I also don't believe that even if the creature could feasibly get in the space harmlessly he is forced to assume the space by the spell. So the 40 foot dragon standing proud will not be held by the spell even if he could bend over and easily fit inside the bubble if he wanted to. I just said the mulch because I am taking the logical step to the reasoning everyone says how a dragon could get in the first place. And like you said it is DM fiat the only thing keeping the dragon both in and restrained, in and mulched and out. There is nothing in the spell or rules what happens. Everything in this topic is what if this happened that doesn't cover the spell description.

But then again apparently the OP is having a ball here and not contributing to the topic at hand, funny when he earlier said that this was all a waste of time.

[charlesk]

D&D is predicated on an intelligent, reasonable game master to make interpretations in situations where the rules have gaps or unanticipated situations arise. Wall of Force should specify explicitly what happens if a creature won't fit in the sphere, but it doesn't, so the DM must.

Given the spell description, "monster doesn't fit inside the wall so it must go outside" is a rational ruling. "Monster doesn't fit inside the wall so the wall cuts through the middle of it killing it instantly with no save" is ... not.

[GiantOctopodes]

So what you are saying is that a 40 foot long dragon can't be ever encased in a Wall of Force unless he allows himself to be encased. Because RAW says the space it takes on a grid and the actual dimensions need not be one and the same so if the creature can extend somewhere up to 20 feet the moment the wall was cast then the wall will have to force him outside, right?

Not to be too argumentative but you referenced RAW, mind pointing me where does in the rules it directly states that Wall of Force can't kill? Preferably a quote and page number, thank you.

No, I'm saying the opposite- that the dimensions of a creature do not matter for interaction with the spell. Only his space, as defined on page 191. It does not matter if the dragon is 100' long. If his space, as defined by the game, is 15'x15', and a wall of force appears in such a way that it does not intersect that 15'x15' space, it does not move you. It does not need to. You can visualize it however you want, but your 15'x15' space *is* now within the wall of force, and since movement begins with the space you currently occupy, you cannot move out of it, or pass through it, or anything like that.

Similarly, it does not matter if you are 1' long, if your space, as defined on page 191 is 15'x15', and you're in a 5' radius hemisphere wall of force, you'll never fit inside, and must be put outside in order to satisfy the requirement that the wall not intersect your space. The big thing to remember is that it does not care about the creature, just its space. As far as the game is concerned, your space is you, so for most distinctions it does not matter, but where you can stretch or do whatever, your space cannot, and it is your space, not you, that the spell is interacting with.

Where does it say Wall of Force CAN kill? How could it do so? As indicated, if the wall intersects the creatures space, it must be put on either side, which, if the hemisphere is too small, will result in it being outside. Being forcibly moved somewhere does not kill you, so I fail to see under what circumstances it *would* kill. However, as indicated, the tactic you describe of squeezing them down doesn't work for two reasons:

1) You can't reduce the size once it's set
2) The spell specifically states the creature gets moved if the wall intersects its space. You thus cannot fit a creature within a hemisphere smaller than its space, as otherwise you will never reach a point at which the spell does not require the creature to be moved.

[Strill]

There is no such thing as a Shape Earth spell and there is no way to transmute earth into lava through a Wall of Force. Mind actually keeping to options that exist in 5e, thanks. No need to inflate the value of Wall of Force with facetious combos.

Also if you mean Move Earth, keep it mind it takes 10 minutes for the changes to take effect and it is a Concentration spell as well and also it is illegal since the spell requires a Range and it is blocked by Line of Effect.

You don't need to transmute it inside the wall of force. Transmute it outside the wall of force and let it flood in when the wall comes down.

[Shaofoo]

D&D is predicated on an intelligent, reasonable game master to make interpretations in situations where the rules have gaps or unanticipated situations arise. Wall of Force should specify explicitly what happens if a creature won't fit in the sphere, but it doesn't, so the DM must.

Given the spell description, "monster doesn't fit inside the wall so it must go outside" is a rational ruling. "Monster doesn't fit inside the wall so the wall cuts through the middle of it killing it instantly with no save" is ... not.

Yeah cause I totally said that the Wall of Force cuts monsters in half, yep I really totally said that.

I guess charlie boy is wanting to get the last word against a person he can't see. Maybe I should stop replying to him lest he make more erroneous arguments and make up more stuff for daring to think that his DM is far from perfect.



You don't need to transmute it inside the wall of force. Transmute it outside the wall of force and let it flood in when the wall comes down.

There is no spell that lets you transmute stone into lava.

[Forum Explorer]

Actually I do think Wall of Force is broken, but not for the reasons listed so far.

The problem is Wall of Ice. For a level more it can't be free floating, the spell doesn't specify what side the creature appears on, the wall is easily broken (AC 12, and 30 hit points with a vulnerability of fire). It does do some pretty decent damage for it's level (10d6, assuming the creature ends up on the wrong side of the wall.) And can be broken by concentration like a Wall of Force.

[Thisguy_]

Well, I don't see how that makes Wall of ice underpowered compared to Wall of Force, that **** deals damage. A quite different effect.

[Mellack]

Yeah cause I totally said that the Wall of Force cuts monsters in half, yep I really totally said that.

I guess charlie boy is wanting to get the last word against a person he can't see. Maybe I should stop replying to him lest he make more erroneous arguments and make up more stuff for daring to think that his DM is far from perfect.



Considering that you are the one who suggested the wall can squash them into a one foot ball when nobody else remotely said anything like that, the irony is rather high.

[Ralanr]

Considering that you are the one who suggested the wall can squash them into a one foot ball when nobody else remotely said anything like that, the irony is rather high.

I thought that was me?

[Shaofoo]

Considering that you are the one who suggested the wall can squash them into a one foot ball when nobody else remotely said anything like that, the irony is rather high.

I gave my reasoning as to why you can crush enemies into a one foot ball. I said that on my own based on the logic that I have yet to be refuted.

I was accused that somehow I can sunder enemies in half which I am sure not even the word half was even mentioned.

And I went on record that I do not believe that you can crush enemies at all, any monsters that is larger than 20 feet at one point will be shunted out of the sphere at all.

So mind explaining to me this irony again? I am really curious why is it ironic that I get accused for something that I have never said because I said something else and gave my justifications, please and thank you.

[charlesk]

Considering that you are the one who suggested the wall can squash them into a one foot ball when nobody else remotely said anything like that, the irony is rather high.

I must humbly apologize for mischaracterizing Shaofoo's suggestion as the somewhat silly idea that a Wall of Force sphere can cut a monster in half.

He actually suggested that you could cast it as a 1' diameter sphere and this would cause the monster to somehow implode and be turned into jelly. This is a different idea that is not somewhat silly, but instead, completely and thoroughly silly -- utterly unsupported by the rules in any way, and would turn Wall of Force into arguably the single most powerful spell in the game. If a DM even tried to do something like this in a game I was in, I'd probably just look at him funny, then gather my things up and walk away.

[Shaofoo]

I must humbly apologize for mischaracterizing Shaofoo's suggestion as the somewhat silly idea that a Wall of Force sphere can cut a monster in half.

He actually suggested that you could cast it as a 1' diameter sphere and this would cause the monster to somehow implode and be turned into jelly. This is a different idea that is not somewhat silly, but instead, completely and thoroughly silly -- utterly unsupported by the rules in any way, and would turn Wall of Force into arguably the single most powerful spell in the game. If a DM even tried to do something like this in a game I was in, I'd probably just look at him funny, then gather my things up and walk away.

You know what is also unsupported by the rules.

Forcing the creature to go in against his will even if he could still fit in by moving his body.

In fact I have proven that the opposite is true and given actual quotes but that is beyond the scope of this topic.

It is a shame.

Also nice way to deflect the fact that your characterization could be misconstrued as not even reading the topic at all. Or rather not misconstrued but rather that you don't even read your own topic, that is nice.

[Forum Explorer]

Well, I don't see how that makes Wall of ice underpowered compared to Wall of Force, that **** deals damage. A quite different effect.

While it does deal a decent amount of damage, it's trivial to escape from in comparison to Wall of Force, and as a wall spell, you'd expect it to at least provide some difficulty in that regard.


I must humbly apologize for mischaracterizing Shaofoo's suggestion as the somewhat silly idea that a Wall of Force sphere can cut a monster in half.

He actually suggested that you could cast it as a 1' diameter sphere and this would cause the monster to somehow implode and be turned into jelly. This is a different idea that is not somewhat silly, but instead, completely and thoroughly silly -- utterly unsupported by the rules in any way, and would turn Wall of Force into arguably the single most powerful spell in the game. If a DM even tried to do something like this in a game I was in, I'd probably just look at him funny, then gather my things up and walk away.

To give it a non-sarcastic explanation,

Shaofoo is arguing that if you can force a creature to 'squeeze' into the wall of force, even if it would otherwise have body parts sticking out, then by that same logic you could make the ball 1 foot in diameter and completely crush them. Since you can't do that, logically you shouldn't be able to squeeze them in either.

[GiantOctopodes]

While it does deal a decent amount of damage, it's trivial to escape from in comparison to Wall of Force, and as a wall spell, you'd expect it to at least provide some difficulty in that regard.



To give it a non-sarcastic explanation,

Shaofoo is arguing that if you can force a creature to 'squeeze' into the wall of force, even if it would otherwise have body parts sticking out, then by that same logic you could make the ball 1 foot in diameter and completely crush them. Since you can't do that, logically you shouldn't be able to squeeze them in either.

It should of course be noted that you cannot, in fact, squeeze a target at all. Squeezing, as defined on pg 192, says "A creature can squeeze through a space that is large enough for a creature one size smaller than it", so a creature that would normally be 15x15 can squeeze and fit in a 10x10 area. However, since Wall of Force requires you to move the creature if it intersects their space, were you to attempt to encompass a creature of that size in that area, you would find that you are intersecting the creature's space (15x15) and rather than the creature squeezing, per the rules you would have to choose a side to put the creature on, such that the wall of force no longer intersected its space.

Anything beyond that, something like a person sticking their hand out as the wall goes up or a dragon sticking its neck out or whatever, are not described in how they act, we only know two things: 1) They are not moved, they stay right where they are, and 2) the wall goes up. If you consider this them being "forced" to be on one side of the wall as they are "squeezed" into the amount of space the PHB says they inhabit, that's totally fine and valid, but regardless of how you envision that occurring, how it is handled mechanically is clear.

[Forum Explorer]

It should of course be noted that you cannot, in fact, squeeze a target at all. Squeezing, as defined on pg 192, says "A creature can squeeze through a space that is large enough for a creature one size smaller than it", so a creature that would normally be 15x15 can squeeze and fit in a 10x10 area. However, since Wall of Force requires you to move the creature if it intersects their space, were you to attempt to encompass a creature of that size in that area, you would find that you are intersecting the creature's space (15x15) and rather than the creature squeezing, per the rules you would have to choose a side to put the creature on, such that the wall of force no longer intersected its space.

Anything beyond that, something like a person sticking their hand out as the wall goes up or a dragon sticking its neck out or whatever, are not described in how they act, we only know two things: 1) They are not moved, they stay right where they are, and 2) the wall goes up. If you consider this them being "forced" to be on one side of the wall as they are "squeezed" into the amount of space the PHB says they inhabit, that's totally fine and valid, but regardless of how you envision that occurring, how it is handled mechanically is clear.

I am of the opinion that this is not the edition to get caught up in exact term definitions. Unlike 3.5, very few terms are rigidly defined, and the game developers chose a more natural use of language. At times this means the same word is used multiple times in different meanings.

On this matter I would leave to the DM on what occurs. It's a vague spot, and while your interpretaion is valid, the above issue means it is not the only one.

As a DM? I'd rule that it must enclose the entire creature, not just it's 'combat space.' On the basis that the more powerful spell, forcecage has that restriction.

Here's a question though, what happens if you push on a wall of force?

[Ralanr]

The wall of force sends back an equal amount of force exerted by the push back at you.

[Haruki-kun]

The Winged Mod: Thread closed for review.