Stoneblessed + Dwarf Paragon

[Mr.Kraken]

I have a question regarding the combination in the title. Say I cap Stoneblessed and start being considered a dwarf. Now, I take Dwarf Paragon. What happens then regarding Improved Darkvision and the save bonus against poison? Both say that the existing bonuses "improve", but in this case, there's no previous bonus to improve. Does that mean Dwarf Paragon 2 would be a dead level? Or maybe, I'd get a normal dwarf's darkvision and save bonus against poison?

[Rebel7284]

Improved Darkvision (Ex)
At 2nd level, a dwarf paragon's darkvision range increases by 30 feet.


RAW, 0+30 = 30. Your DMs mileage may vary.



Save Bonus (Ex)
A 2nd-level dwarf paragon's racial bonus on saves against poison and against spells and spell-like effects increases by 1.


RAW, 0+1 = 1.

On a side note, one of my favorite builds is Dragonborn Mongrelfolk Stoneblessed Dwarf Paragon going into Fist of the Forest and Deepwarden for Con to AC twice.

[Deadline]

RAW, 0+30 = 30. Your DMs mileage may vary.



RAW, 0+1 = 1.

This is more of a RAW, NaN + 1 = NaN. If you don't have said abilities, you probably get no benefit. But check with your DM to see if they will let you gain a regular Dwarf's Darkvision and poison save bonus. That's how I'd houserule it.

[Curmudgeon]

RAW, 0+30 = 30.
You're assuming you've got 0 rather than Ø. How do you justify that assumption?

[OldTrees1]

You're assuming you've got 0 rather than Ø. How do you justify that assumption?

I think you meant NaN rather than Ø(an alternative glyph for zero/empty set).

However I agree that NaN+1 =/= 1.

[Thurbane]

I'd rule it works like natural armor - creatures with none are treated as having a base of zero.

It's really a DM call though. Absolutely nothing overpowered about allowing it...

[Rebel7284]

You're assuming you've got 0 rather than Ø. How do you justify that assumption?

I am currently writing PHP code.
I know that doing
echo $x + 30;
Will print 30 (and a warning) if x was never defined.

Yeah, obviously it's a DM call, but the wording of "this value increases" as opposed to "this ability changes" makes me feel like it should work.

[torrasque666]

I am currently writing PHP code.
I know that doing
echo $x + 30;
Will print 30 (and a warning) if x was never defined.

Yeah, obviously it's a DM call, but the wording of "this value increases" as opposed to "this ability changes" makes me feel like it should work.
And what about things that would increase a creatures, say CON score, when that creature is Undead?

[Deadline]

I am currently writing PHP code.
I know that doing
echo $x + 30;
Will print 30 (and a warning) if x was never defined.

Yeah, obviously it's a DM call, but the wording of "this value increases" as opposed to "this ability changes" makes me feel like it should work.

You can add "CAT" + 476 in C and get a result. That doesn't mean it's the correct result. :smalltongue:

[noob]

"And what about things that would increase a creatures, say CON score, when that creature is Undead? "
Undead have con _ not con 0
And the rules are clear about con _: _+X=_

[AvatarVecna]

A character with Con 0 is dead by RAW. Do they return to life if they are equipped with an Amulet of Health +2?

EDIT: As for natural armor, most of the Core sources of externally-gained natural armor have something saying "if you don't have any, just use this bonus as your natural armor, instead of enhancing your natural armor" or something like that. That those sources have to call out that you gain the bonus even if you don't have shows that it's an exception to the general rule, rather than the general rule itself.

[Necroticplague]

Sadly, it's a dead level. You don't have any darkvision to improve, nor a resistance to poison to improve. So it has about as much of an effect as casting Bear's Endurance on a skeleton (i.e, nothing).

[Mr.Kraken]

Deviating from the topic a little, is there any character option of note (feats, prestige classes) that you could use from being considered a dwarf?

[AvatarVecna]

Like Stoneblessed? :smalltongue:

More seriously, I think there's a feat from Bastards and Bloodlines that can do that, but I might be misremembering, and I don't have the book immediately available to check.

[Mr.Kraken]

I meant any good feat or prestige class (or anything else, really) that has being a dwarf as a prerequisite...

[AvatarVecna]

Ah. Sorry, I misunderstood. Let me go look...

[atemu1234]

I think you meant NaN rather than Ø(an alternative glyph for zero/empty set).

However I agree that NaN+1 =/= 1.

Congrats on the maths degree :smallsmile:. I'm sure the internet has given it much use.

[Roga]

Is the level dead forever, or do you feel it could be switched on later? If said human-eyed dwarf paragon later became a Horizon Walker and got Underground mastery.

Underground Mastery: You have 60-foot darkvision, or 120-foot darkvision if you already had darkvision from another source. You gain a +1 insight bonus on attack and damage rolls against underground creatures.

Would gaining Darkvision now also gain the benefit of Dwarf Paragon? I would say yes, especially since this Darkvision in particular is keen on stacking. I see it like a fighter who had his strength set to 10, after an unfortunate reincarnate for instance. He has Power Attack, but can't make use of it. A few levels into Dragon Disciple and then his strength peaks over 13 and suddenly he can use that ability he got so long ago.

As for OP, Deepwarden was already mentioned. I'm a fan of Deepstone Sentinel from Tome of Battle. It doesn't require Dwarf, but I think Devoted Defender from Sword and Fist is great if you're going Tank-y.

[Necroticplague]

Yep. If you got darkvision later, or a racial bonus vs. poison later, it would now apply to those traits (I do beleive there's a feat for the latter, though only vs. ingested). Doesn't specify where you got the darkvision or racial bonus vs. poison, so it can come from anywhere.

[Mr.Kraken]

In my specific case, the bonus against poison would be useless anyways because my character is a druid, so he would be immune. He's a goliath druid 10//fighter 5/stoneblessed 3/deepwarden 2.

[Ellowryn]

In my specific case, the bonus against poison would be useless anyways because my character is a druid, so he would be immune. He's a goliath druid 10//fighter 5/stoneblessed 3/deepwarden 2.

Why fighter 5? You can enter stoneblessed at 3rd level. I could see going fighter 4 if you needed the bonus fighter feat, but 5 (and most odd levels) is a bad level for fighters in general (unless you plan to trade away feats for ACF's).

Also, druid getsalt, why do you not have Master of Many Forms at level 5? Are you planning to play in a low OP game?

[Mr.Kraken]

Why fighter 5? You can enter stoneblessed at 3rd level. I could see going fighter 4 if you needed the bonus fighter feat, but 5 (and most odd levels) is a bad level for fighters in general (unless you plan to trade away feats for ACF's).

Also, druid getsalt, why do you not have Master of Many Forms at level 5? Are you planning to play in a low OP game?

I plan on going at least to fighter 6, to get the improvement to dungeon crasher. The game is in fact, very high OP, and I'm afraid my character won't be able to become relevant, especially considering the Paladin/Risen Martyr//Wilder in the group. Thing is, I built the character mostly based on fluff, and I'd like to keep it that way.

I'm a huge fan of the earth element, and I was wanted to have an earth-based tanker druid. This character in particular was one I used on 4e as a Warden, and I wanted to adapt him to 3.5. So, as much as I know how powerful Wild Shape is, I don't think I'm going to use it much. The character is already impressive in melee combat, with special focus on large adamantine weapon sundering and power attack-knockback-dungeon crasher combos. He has good AC and hit points due to his high Con score. He has a bloodstriker animal companion and alsos focuses on buffing and earth-based druid spells.

I know you probably what you're thinking.
"So, I heard you really like earth, stone and rock, huh? Here..."
* Starts throwing giant-sized boulders at my sorry self * :smalleek: