The Soul Trade

[Ancalidormis]

I imagine souls are used like currency in the lower realms, allowing the fiendish economy to flourish. Has anyone ever tried to use them in such a way in their games before? If so, how would you stat the price of a soul, assuming it didn't vary much from soul to soul. Naturally good aligned souls would be worth more, but they would have a default base.

[lhilas]

My wild guess would be somewhere around 1000 gp per soul...

[LoyalPaladin]

You're lucky, we here at GitP Asset Security are experts at selling, trading, and buying souls. However, I am only good at enforcing people not to participate in the soul exchange. But I'm sure IZ42, Snowbluff, or Red Fel will pop in here eventually.

I'm sure you wont use this knowledge to actually sell souls, right?

[ExLibrisMortis]

A soul is worth 10 xp in crafting, which is equivalent to 50 gp.

[Flickerdart]

I imagine souls are used like currency in the lower realms, allowing the fiendish economy to flourish. Has anyone ever tried to use them in such a way in their games before? If so, how would you stat the price of a soul, assuming it didn't vary much from soul to soul. Naturally good aligned souls would be worth more, but they would have a default base.
Let me call my guy who's an expert on used souls.

:sabine: "Well, it's really not a seller's market for souls right now. I could take your soul off your hands for you, but it would just sit on the shelf for weeks taking up space, and I have other inventory to move. I'll give you 5gp for it, and that's me being generous."

[Telonius]

Well, that's for a used soul. Depending on how heavy the wear is, you might even need to pay them to haul it away. But if we're talking about a high-level soul, mint- or near-mint condition? Those can fetch a lot more, especially if it's still in the original packaging.

[Red Fel]

You're lucky, we here at GitP Asset Security are experts at selling, trading, and buying souls. However, I am only good at enforcing people not to participate in the soul exchange. But I'm sure IZ42, Snowbluff, or Red Fel will pop in here eventually.

Ugh, three times. It isn't hard; you say it three times! This is what I get for working with amateurs...

Anyway, as others have mentioned, a soul's worth is expressed explicitly in xp, and there is another explicit exchange rate between xp and gp, so 50 gp is a fairly reasonable price.

That said, as far as the market goes, there are so many ways you could spin it. So many. It's not even funny.

Picture an open-air marketplace with vendors on all sides hawking their wares. "I've got fresh ones, just harvested! Bunch of gangsters, all gunned down at once! Cheaper by the bunch!" "Try some of this - it's cult leader! Aged for five centuries! A great vintage!" "Knights! I've got knights by the dozen! Get your blood-soaked knights here!" "Hey. Hey, buddy. I know you want something rare. C'mere. See this? It's king. The genuine article. You don't see these just anyplace, and I can give it to you for a fantastic price."

Alternatively, picture a poker game. "Okay. I'll see your executioner, and raise you two lepers and a beauty queen." "I'll see that, and raise you three serial killers." "Phew, too rich for my blood! I fold."

Alternatively, picture a bank. "We here at the Infernal Fiduciary offer extremely generous interest-bearing accounts. Plus, open an account with us and receive a Mane, absolutely free."

Of course, if you ask me, a soul isn't nearly as valuable as a favor. A guaranteed favor is a commodity that can be traded, and can have value even among the powers. Do you think Asmodeus cares if he has one more soul or not? Not generally. Do you think he cares if he has a favor owed him? Most certainly.

And that's what I prefer to use in games. Look, if something takes or trades your soul, that's kind of it. Either you die immediately, or you can't rez, or if you do rez you "come back wrong." Nice plot hook, but generally closed-ended. But a favor? That's an awesome plot hook. It can hang over a PC forever. It can hang over the party. It can come back to bite them in the worst possible way.

Smart Evil Outsiders don't need to bargain for souls. A soul is guaranteed to the dark side from the moment any kind of bargain is struck. Bargain for a favor, and you get the favor and the soul.

[Psyren]

Per FC2, souls do have different values depending on the person, though it doesn't go into much more detail than that:


Devils carefully calibrate the rewards of a Faustian pact against the value of the soul acquired. Thus, they’re likely to offer more to a mighty king or a vaunted hero than to a snot-nosed street urchin. By the same token, persons already teetering on damnation’s edge tend to get poorer offers than those otherwise unlikely to damn themselves.

Every reward has a cost, which soul harvesters endeavor to keep as low as possible. When they can, they offer benefits achievable through the mundane resources at their disposal. For example, they might provide information from their spy networks or treasure from their raiding parties. A devil could make a signatory prosperous by introducing him to wealthy cultists who can steer him toward insider opportunities.

When strictly necessary, however, a devil can draw on its supernatural powers to fulfi ll contract terms. In high-status cases, it can even petition its archdevil master to work unholy miracles on a signatory’s behalf.

[IZ42]

Daemon and soul trade expert here. Most of what everyone else has said is mostly correct. Souls can be used as crafting components and even as the intelligence in intelligent items. Information on the soul trade can be found here: Daemons (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/daemons)

Of course, they're also quite delicious.

[LoyalPaladin]

Ugh, three times. It isn't hard; you say it three times! This is what I get for working with amateurs...
You have to remember, that is if I want to summon you. It's against my code to summon evil outsiders. Plus, you still showed up. Paladin 1 / Strange Summoning Incantation 0.


<Awesome Advice About the Soul Exchange>
I knew I could count on you.


Of course, they're also quite delicious.
Hey, that's 2/3. Torm, I'm good.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The neogi sell creatures at a price of CR2 * 100 gp, minimum CR 1. Presumably, a creature's soul will have a similar value, if it's properly trapped (e.g. a thinaun weapon is used). A CR 20 thinaun-trapped soul costs 5910 gp to resurrect, 14030 gp to true resurrect, on a market value of 40.000 gp. The weapon costs 10.000, but it can be returned or reused.

[Michael7123]

Can I just say I would love to see a game that is based around the infernal soul trade. I already have a (human) character I created who's specific job is to go around and get people to sign Faustian packs without knowing it. None of the conditions say that someone has to read what they are actually signing with their own blood.

"Remember whenever you get to the part where they have to sign the damn (pun very much intended) contracts in their own blood: brush it off as a weird mage security thingy and they will always believe you."

This made me think of a third type of Faustian deal that should be a thing: one where it give the signer a perceived way out of it by forming certain tasks. Of course, the tasks would always benefit the holder of the contract, not the signatory, get them to do things that will make them evil (Lawful evil especially, in the case of working for the nine hells), and lastly, as the ultimate fail safe, an impossible task written in fine print somewhere (like telling a mage to kill a demon prince with an unenchanted knife and without using any spells. Including Plane shift.) Of course, the goal would be to have them find about that last condition after they sign the contract.

[atemu1234]

Wasn't the cost listed in BoVD?

[Psyren]

Wasn't the cost listed in BoVD?

It was, and quoted above by ExLibrisMortis. But the BoVD pricing makes no sense. Per BoVD, every soul is worth the same amount - whether you're a commoner, king, archmage, or even a rat, it's a flat rate of 50gp.

[Extra Anchovies]

It was, and quoted above by ExLibrisMortis. But the BoVD pricing makes no sense. Per BoVD, every soul is worth the same amount - whether you're a commoner, king, archmage, or even a rat, it's a flat rate of 50gp.

Well, they're all identical after conversion to petitioners, so it sort of makes sense that even if the individuals are different in life they are all of identical value as souls. This would be especially true when the entities trading the souls are evil, since they care only that the things they are getting are souls, and not for the things that soul did when it was attached to a body.

[elonin]

Maybe I'm misreading here but I thought their value for crafting included a per level bonus.

[Saintheart]

...why are we discussing how much it costs to hire a Bard to make a Perform (Motown) check?

[Psyren]

Well, they're all identical after conversion to petitioners, so it sort of makes sense that even if the individuals are different in life they are all of identical value as souls. This would be especially true when the entities trading the souls are evil, since they care only that the things they are getting are souls, and not for the things that soul did when it was attached to a body.

But the BoVD pricing applies long before they get to that state - while they are trapped in a gem for instance.

I prefer the FC2 take, where having a more powerful or pure soul allows you to bargain for a greater Pact because they want you more badly. The problem is that, though they do say in that book that these souls are more valuable monetarily, they don't spell out exactly what that value might be (at least, not that I saw from my quick skim.)

[khadgar567]

But the BoVD pricing applies long before they get to that state - while they are trapped in a gem for instance.

I prefer the FC2 take, where having a more powerful or pure soul allows you to bargain for a greater Pact because they want you more badly. The problem is that, though they do say in that book that these souls are more valuable monetarily, they don't spell out exactly what that value might be (at least, not that I saw from my quick skim.)
yeah when you manage to damn lawful good clerics soul I am not selling that for mare 50 gp I want at least astral diamond or platinum pieces for price

[Flickerdart]

yeah when you manage to damn lawful good clerics soul I am not selling that for mare 50 gp I want at least astral diamond or platinum pieces for price
Platinum is only 10gp.

The thing about monetary costs is that fiends don't really need money for anything.

[Psyren]

The thing about monetary costs is that fiends don't really need money for anything.

This is false, of course they do. FC2:


THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL

Though souls are Baator’s primary currency, gold and other treasure items are the next best trade goods. After all, diabolical conspiracies in the Material Plane generally require huge infusions of wealth. Money clothes and feeds cultists and other minions. It pays for spies and assassins, and it underwrites the bribing of officials. Though labor is often enslaved or coerced, devils still must buy materials for the construction of temples, catacombs, and fortresses. Most important, gold buys souls.

It is no accident that the typical Faustian pact with a devil (see page 23) exchanges inducements such as gold, information, supernatural powers, or the services of other devils for the mortal signatory’s soul. Servants of Archduke Mammon specialize in such transactions, and even they marvel at the low price for which many mortals are willing to surrender their immortal essences.

Devils collect treasure on the Material Plane and either transport it to Baator for later redistribution or use it to finance their own operations. Their superiors credit them for every copper piece they kick back into the chain of command. Financial contributions to the hierarchy count for less than the souls reaped, but for advancement-hungry devils, every little bit helps.

Simply put, souls can only help their operations on the Material so far.

[Flickerdart]

This is false, of course they do. FC2:



Simply put, souls can only help their operations on the Material so far.
Perhaps I was unclear.

Fiends don't need gold for themselves. Gold is a means of getting souls. Once you have souls, converting those souls into gold is not super-useful unless you can be guaranteed to get more souls back - which means you are effectively taking loans from literal devils, AKA the worst idea in the world even for another fiend. A canny devil would be much better served by obtaining gold through material means such as slave labour or beating up people and taking their things (either directly or through cultists).

[Psyren]

That's true of any fiat currency though. Gold is not valuable because it's gold - which is not a very useful metal aside from being shiny and conducting well. It's valuable because of what you can exchange it for. But the end result is that they do need it for some things, which hopefully get them more souls in the future, pay off existing debts or even advance.

Souls meanwhile do have that inherent value, because you can make things out of them or cast spells with them directly, in addition to trading them for other things.

[Jurai]

Perhaps I was unclear.

Fiends don't need gold for themselves. Gold is a means of getting souls. Once you have souls, converting those souls into gold is not super-useful unless you can be guaranteed to get more souls back - which means you are effectively taking loans from literal devils, AKA the worst idea in the world even for another fiend. A canny devil would be much better served by obtaining gold through material means such as slave labour or beating up people and taking their things (either directly or through cultists).

So, wait, if devils need gold and can get it by beating people up, why don't they form adventuring parties? It works for mortals.

[Flickerdart]

So, wait, if devils need gold and can get it by beating people up, why don't they form adventuring parties? It works for mortals.
It's rare for devils to get class levels, which makes it more difficult to create a versatile enough party. But a devil pairing up with humanoid thralls to ambush merchant caravans, murder everyone, and take their things? Effective and fun.

Robbing monsters? That's dangerous. Let the goodie two shoes adventurers do it - then when they're wounded and loaded with gold, murder everyone and take their things.