necromancy spells -> negative energy?(3.5)

[lhilas]

Howdy everyone, so lately I've noticed some spells such as ray of enfeeblement or vampiric touch, although being necromancy spells, don't actually use negative energy which I think as the DM of my group is 1) silly fluff wise 2)overpowered mechanic wise.
So my question is am I the only one who thinks this way? Will it be a bad idea to houserule that all necromancy spells that do not specify the way in which they cause their effect (as the spell "Bone Saw" in the spell compendium) will be considered as being the result of negative energy , and therefore function otherwise against the undead?

[Psyren]

What makes you think they don't? Vampiric Touch certainly does as it has no effect on undead. Ray of Enfeeblement is ambiguous, but you can fluff it a different way if it does (and it won't affect incorporeal undead.)

[ExLibrisMortis]

Most necromancy spells already work differently for undead, in the sense that undead are either immune or specifically vulnerable to necromancy. Undead are immune mind-affecting effects (fear), poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, energy drain, damage to physical ability scores, fatigue, exhaustion and anything that requires a Fortitude save (pain), unless the effect also works on objects, or is harmless. That includes nearly anything necromancy spells do to your enemies. On the other hand, some necromancy spells deal with controlling or destroying undead specifically; only undead need to worry about them.

Necromancy is a bit of a strange school, with lots of different spells. Spells are in necromancy because they have evil fluff, or because they have something to do with death, not because they use negative energy - the desecrate spell is Evocation, and that explicitly uses negative energy, for example. Some necromancy involves spells that should be in other schools, but are not, because they're undead-themed - speak with dead is not Divination, for example, even though speak with plants is.

Necromancy is not overpowered because some spells don't use negative energy. Necromancy is fine as-is - Conjuration and Transmutation are both considered to be more powerful. Take a look at Enchantment to see how badly a single descriptor can cripple a school.

[OldTrees1]

It would be a rather pathetic necromancer if they couldn't weaken/enfeeble a skeleton. Be unable to enervate or deal ability drain? Sure, since a skeleton is explicitly immune to those effects. But skeletons are just as vulnerable to strength penalties as any other creature and one ought to expect Necromancers to be able to affect their own field.

Now the question is whether the Necromancer is using their greater skill at weakening the negative energy of the skeleton to enfeeble the skeleton or whether the Necromancer is using non negative energy means of enfeebling the skeleton.

[AmberVael]

Howdy everyone, so lately I've noticed some spells such as ray of enfeeblement or vampiric touch, although being necromancy spells, don't actually use negative energy which I think as the DM of my group is 1) silly fluff wise 2)overpowered mechanic wise.
So my question is am I the only one who thinks this way? Will it be a bad idea to houserule that all necromancy spells that do not specify the way in which they cause their effect (as the spell "Bone Saw" in the spell compendium) will be considered as being the result of negative energy , and therefore function otherwise against the undead?


Necromancy
Necromancy spells manipulate the power of death, unlife, and the life force. Spells involving undead creatures make up a large part of this school.
Necromancy is about more than just negative energy, and there are plenty of things a necromancer should be able to do that have nothing to do with it. Like Vampiric Touch, for example, which I don't think would even make any sense as a negative energy spell. Its not about blasting someone with negative energy, its about draining their life away. They take damage because you're removing something rather than adding it.

[Psyren]

Necromancy is about more than just negative energy, and there are plenty of things a necromancer should be able to do that have nothing to do with it. Like Vampiric Touch, for example, which I don't think would even make any sense as a negative energy spell. Its not about blasting someone with negative energy, its about draining their life away. They take damage because you're removing something rather than adding it.

That's what adding a negative does though. So what you're describing may in fact be how negative energy functions in general.

[AmberVael]

That's what adding a negative does though. So what you're describing may in fact be how negative energy functions in general.

Perhaps I should have used the word "siphon." I see Vampiric Touch to be stealing or removing energy. Something like an Inflict spell delivers negative energy- which negatively impacts your life force rather than straight up removing it. Both hurt you, but not in the same way.

[lhilas]

Perhaps I should have used the word "siphon." I see Vampiric Touch to be stealing or removing energy. Something like an Inflict spell delivers negative energy- which negatively impacts your life force rather than straight up removing it. Both hurt you, but not in the same way.

The way I see it logically if the spell cause damage and deliever the target's LIFE ENERGY to the caster, it would be through using negative energy magic (the all +HP -HP goes hand in hand with this type of energy) and therefore should be considered as though it was a negative energy spell.

[AmberVael]

The way I see it logically if the spell cause damage and deliever the target's LIFE ENERGY to the caster, it would be through using negative energy magic (the all +HP -HP goes hand in hand with this type of energy) and therefore should be considered as though it was a negative energy spell.

There are no negative energy based spells I know of that heal anyone that isn't undead. Spells that simultaneously heal and do damage, such as Vampiric Touch and Healing Touch, are all untyped in damage.

Negative energy is not something with the capability to heal, or indeed, the capability to steal life. It can disrupt or damage it, but there is no precedent for it basically displacing or manipulating it. The Rules Compendium defines it as a damage type, and all the fluff to be found on it indicates that it is a specific form of energy anathema to life, rather than a sort of void that might remove or draw it away.

In short, negative energy really causes damage more in the way fire or a sword to the face causes damage. It adds a force that negatively impacts what is already there, like dumping water on a fire puts it out, or smashing a glass window makes it less of a window and more of a mess. By contrast, something like vampiric touch or healing touch doesn't add anything new, but simply moves what already exists from one place to another. And you wouldn't use negative energy for that any more than you'd use fire to move water. Fire is a very bad bucket.

[atemu1234]

There are no negative energy based spells I know of that heal anyone that isn't undead. Spells that simultaneously heal and do damage, such as Vampiric Touch and Healing Touch, are all untyped in damage.

Negative energy is not something with the capability to heal, or indeed, the capability to steal life. It can disrupt or damage it, but there is no precedent for it basically displacing or manipulating it. The Rules Compendium defines it as a damage type, and all the fluff to be found on it indicates that it is a specific form of energy anathema to life, rather than a sort of void that might remove or draw it away.

In short, negative energy really causes damage more in the way fire or a sword to the face causes damage. It adds a force that negatively impacts what is already there, like dumping water on a fire puts it out, or smashing a glass window makes it less of a window and more of a mess. By contrast, something like vampiric touch or healing touch doesn't add anything new, but simply moves what already exists from one place to another. And you wouldn't use negative energy for that any more than you'd use fire to move water. Fire is a very bad bucket.

Positive and Negative energy have nothing to do with life force; both can heal under certain circumstances and both can kill easily. And both are drawn from their own planes of existence, no siphoning needed.