Is it just me, or is Spirit Guardians overpowered?

[thereaper]

When you get right down to it, it's effectively +3d8 damage in melee every turn (better, in fact, because it's AoE). The fact that it allows a wisdom save doesn't really matter, because there's no practical difference between making an attack roll versus forcing an enemy to roll a save.

Throw in Divine Strike and Spiritual Weapon, and it seems to me like Clericzilla is alive and well.

[Ace Jackson]

When you get right down to it, it's effectively +3d8 damage in melee every turn (better, in fact, because it's AoE). The fact that it allows a wisdom save doesn't really matter, because there's no practical difference between making an attack roll versus forcing an enemy to roll a save.

Throw in Divine Strike and Spiritual Weapon, and it seems to me like Clericzilla is alive and well.

To speak even more to your side, it's worse then the save vs attack equivalency, because a failed save here still means 1/2 damage as opposed to a flat miss.

However I would also point out that while this is a potent spell, it's not quite all it appears to be, for one it's concentration, so if it doesn't go down in a round, and you get hit by the enemy, especially archers who should be out of the spell's range, you are liable to lose it pretty quickly. Also, on the wizzard list you have stinking cloud with a larger area of effect, total enemy immobilization on a failed save, and a shorter concentration time so you never feel as though you lost as much use if you lose concentration.

Also, divine strike applies to weapon attacks, not spell attacks, so no stacking it with spiritual weapon, though shillelagh may be fair game.

[thereaper]

I'm doing a flat warrior-to-warrior comparison here. Wizards need not apply.

Divine Strike is for the Cleric's weapon. He attacks, gets the equivalent of another attack from Divine Strike, gets another attack with Spiritual Weapon, then gets the equivalent of yet another attack with Spirit Guardians.

The issue with concentration is that between Resilient (Con) and Warcaster (both of which our hypothetical Cleric will certainly get), the Cleric should have at least an even chance of keeping Spirit Guardians up for the three rounds the battle is likely to last. Then he just begins the process again in the next battle.

[Ashrym]

When you get right down to it, it's effectively +3d8 damage in melee every turn (better, in fact, because it's AoE). The fact that it allows a wisdom save doesn't really matter, because there's no practical difference between making an attack roll versus forcing an enemy to roll a save.

Throw in Divine Strike and Spiritual Weapon, and it seems to me like Clericzilla is alive and well.

It also lets the cleric select targets, which is nice. Party friendly AoE damage is a plus.

The spell combos nicely with sanctuary.

The issue is it's still slow damage that's spread out on a limited resource, but at least it adds over time potential. Extra attacks continue to be better focused damage.

[Slipperychicken]

When you get right down to it, it's effectively +3d8 damage in melee every turn (better, in fact, because it's AoE). The fact that it allows a wisdom save doesn't really matter, because there's no practical difference between making an attack roll versus forcing an enemy to roll a save.

Throw in Divine Strike and Spiritual Weapon, and it seems to me like Clericzilla is alive and well.

It makes me wonder how long the Cleric will be able to keep his concentration up, since he's in melee range and is making himself a pretty big target. If he can maintain concentration despite the attention he's attracting, then I think this will be a good combo.


As for as Clericzilla shenanigans, we can add in shillelagh (magic initiate or nature domain) so he can safely pump wisdom and constitution and the expense of strength. By round 3, he's putting out three damage effects per round, all keyed off his primary stat (one magic weapon attack for 2d8+wis, one spell attack for 1d8+wis, then the AoE for 3d6 and halved speed).

Taking polearm master with his shillelagh-ed quarterstaff would let him save slots on Spiritual Weapon and use his bonus action to attack, bringing us to a total of one 2d8+wis attack, one 1d4+wis attack, and the 3d6 AoE from Spirit Guardians. If he can pre-buff Shillelagh and Spirit Guardians (the former is a cantrip and the latter has a 10 minute duration), I think the Cleric can be pretty competitive with non-caster melee.

[Giant2005]

Taking polearm master with his shillelagh-ed quarterstaff would let him save slots on Spiritual Weapon and use his bonus action to attack (which adds Divine Strike), bringing us to a total of one 2d8+wis attack, one 1d8+1d4+wis attack, and the 3d6 AoE from Spirit Guardians.

Divine Strike is once per round.

[Slipperychicken]

Divine Strike is once per round.

I always forget things like this... Editing the post now to reflect that.

[Ace Jackson]

I'm doing a flat warrior-to-warrior comparison here. Wizards need not apply.

Divine Strike is for the Cleric's weapon. He attacks, gets the equivalent of another attack from Divine Strike, gets another attack with Spiritual Weapon, then gets the equivalent of yet another attack with Spirit Guardians.

The issue with concentration is that between Resilient (Con) and Warcaster (both of which our hypothetical Cleric will certainly get), the Cleric should have at least an even chance of keeping Spirit Guardians up for the three rounds the battle is likely to last. Then he just begins the process again in the next battle.

Alright, factoring in the feats the cleric is at least level 4 if variant human, but let's say he's level eight, he can do this combo exactly four times a day if he does absolutely nothing else with any of his slots above level 2.

Barbarians at this level have four rages, which confer damage reduction, and plus two damage to every attack for two attacks a turn, plus much more HP, more movement speed, and advantage on initiative before factoring in any subclass features.

Fighters have had an extra ASI, have slightly more HP, a fighting style, like GWM with rerolling 1s and 2s, also attack twice, have second wind, action surge, and one of the archetypes and all relevent abilities under there.

Monks have 8 ki points, attack with a monk weapon twice, attack with an unarmed strike as a bonus action at d6, or use a ki point to strike twice, deflect arrows, slowfall, stun strike, evasion, and subclass features here as well.

For comparisons sake, the cleric also has two channel divinity uses, three domain features, and the ability to destroy undead of CR1 or less at the expense of one of the channel divinity uses.

On the whole I'm not seeing too much imbalance, but then again, I haven't done all the math exactly.

Well, I've been late to the party...

[Giant2005]

If we work out the Cleric's offensive potential like the DMG suggests we do with monster's offensive CR (Relevent rules: AOEs are expected to hit 2 targets, targets always fail their saves, average damage inflicted over first 3 rounds of combat), the Cleric's average damage is: (18D8+4D6+6D8+20)/3 = 47.3 if he is using a Greatsword and has +5 Wis and Str (First round Spiritual Guardians, second and third rounds spiritual weapon + Greatsword attack). That isn't terrible but it isn't particularly impressive either when you compare it to a Warlock's Eldritch Blast which is 4D10+20 = 42 average damage per round.

EDIT: Had the numbers wrong. I thought Spiritual Guardians inflicted 3D6 when it inflicts 3D8. That results in an extra 6 DPR which has been accounted for above.

[Ace Jackson]

If we work out the Cleric's offensive potential like the DMG suggests we do with monster's offensive CR (Relevent rules: AOEs are expected to hit 2 targets, targets always fail their saves, average damage inflicted over first 3 rounds of combat), the Cleric's average damage is: (18D6+4D6+6D8+20)/3 = 41.3 if he is using a Greatsword and has +5 Wis and Str (First round Spiritual Guardians, second and third rounds spiritual weapon + Greatsword attack). That isn't terrible but it isn't particularly impressive either when you compare it to a Warlock's Eldritch Blast which is 4D10+20 = 42 average damage per round.

Plus if he has +5 wis and +5 str he probably doesn't have both resilient con and warcaster, he might not even have either of them. Rendering the concentration requirement relevant in this case.

Come to think of it, if he's using a great sword he's not using a shield, which lowers the AC and leads to questionable visibility and effect of the holy symbol for spell casting to begin with. Sure, he can have an amulet, but... nothing since the PHB has nothing special regarding amulets or reliquaries. Cede that one.

[rhouck]

If we work out the Cleric's offensive potential like the DMG suggests we do with monster's offensive CR (Relevent rules: AOEs are expected to hit 2 targets, targets always fail their saves, average damage inflicted over first 3 rounds of combat), the Cleric's average damage is: (18D6+4D6+6D8+20)/3 = 41.3 if he is using a Greatsword and has +5 Wis and Str (First round Spiritual Guardians, second and third rounds spiritual weapon + Greatsword attack). That isn't terrible but it isn't particularly impressive either when you compare it to a Warlock's Eldritch Blast which is 4D10+20 = 42 average damage per round.

Thanks for the math. Identifying (as you did) that it takes until round 2 to even come online is important, as when I used it in play, it felt like combat was almost over by the time everything was cast (while the duration allows for it to be precast, that just doesn't seem to happen often). And that required the expenditure of a level 3 and level 2 slot, including concentration which precludes competing spells like Bless. And that's compared to a warlock just pew pewing with a cantrip.

I think it's a very effective combo against many minions over a long fight, but is not overly impressive against fewer big foes. As a 6th level tempest cleric, I found casting thunder wave out of a 3rd level slot paired with channel divinity to be a far more eyebrow raising combo. The ability to burst tends to be more valuable than dpr due to average combat length, and the cleric is weaker at burst than most classes.

The overpowered talk seems to stem from theorycrafting re the cleric sprinting around a battlefield and hitting 20 enemies per turn with it.

[Flashy]

Here's an odd question: How does Spirit Guardians interact with Find Steed? Does the steed get a horrible death nova too?

[MrStabby]

Yeah, its a good spell but not excessive. It is especially good at level 5 but becomes less significant beyond that.

Combats for me last about two rounds - for most of them. Sometimes three. This means number of creatures hit by this is probably just those within range when the spell goes up. As clerics dont tend to have awesome Dex it is probably a 50% chance that the enemies will get a go before the cleric anyway.

This gives a 9d8 damage over a couple of turns. Compared to other uses of a level three spell slot - it isnt too much. Fireball on two targets would be 16d6 damage - quite a bit more and in less time.

Even with this it's only twice per day - and unless you are dashing from fight to fight you will not always get multiple fights from it. Yes, for 20 minutes per day (unless you fail a con save) at level 5 you might be able to use all your highest level spell slots to slightly out damage a fighter but to me a caster exchanging sustained damage for the ability to shine in a couple of encounters per day isn't overpowered - its the class' distinguishing feature.

[Pex]

Just because a player character gets to do something awesome doesn't mean it's overpowered, including spellcasters casting spells.

[Callin]

I played a Paladin 2/ Light Cleric 9 once that used this for Crowd Control mostly. Sentinel with Sword and Board because I liked it. The extra damage is nice but the CC is what really sold me on it.

[thereaper]

By my math, a level 14 Wis 18 Str 16 Cleric using a Greatsword, Spiritual Weapon, and Spirit Guardians will inflict 41 dpr if he lands everything (2d6+3+2d8+1d8+4+3d8). And he will have enough spell slots to do it in 6 separate battles. And this ignores the fact that using higher level spell slots means Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon will do even more damage.

By comparison, a Greatsword-wielding Str 20 Fighter will be doing 39 dpr if he lands everything (3*(2d6+1+4)).

The more I look at it, the harder it is for me to see how this could be balanced. The only real drawbacks are the concentration checks (which the Cleric can easily make with the right feats) and the fact that Spirit Guardians requires giving up an action on the turn you cast it, which is more than made up for in the face of the extra damage from using it in higher spell slots. Even the Fighter's Action Surge can't make up for that.

[ProphetSword]

Spirit Guardians seems powerful on the surface. I had some worries about it when the cleric in my game started casting it all the time. What I noticed, though, was that as the fights got tougher, Spirit Guardians seemed less effective.

I think this is because the hit points of the monsters increase so much. In addition, intelligent opponents will tend to try to take the cleric out, while unintelligent creatures will move out of the area of effect, making it hard for the cleric to keep them all in the spell's effect as they spread out.

The mage in the party does far more damage with his castings of Wall of Fire than the cleric does with Spirit Guardians.

[thereaper]

The Wizard (in theory) pays for it by being squishier. This isn't about the Wizard. This is about the Cleric seemingly once again being able to make the Fighter redundant.

Fortunately, the Paladin is still safe, because she at least gets Aura of Protection (which, as far as I'm aware, is after a certain point the only practical defense for the party against saves that they aren't proficient in short of spending their Bardic Inspiration dice).

[Flashy]

This is about the Cleric once again being able to make the Fighter redundant.

Or the Bard.

[JNAProductions]

Two higher DPR for an entirely melee focused Cleric? That's, um... Not exactly a huge deal.

[thereaper]

That doesn't take into account other domain features, 1st level spells, and so on.

And it makes the Cleric almost strictly better than the Fighter, which is the problem.

[JNAProductions]

For a few encounters a day. I believe the theorycrafting, but I don't think it's really a table issue.

[Giant2005]

The Wizard (in theory) pays for it by being squishier. This isn't about the Wizard. This is about the Cleric seemingly once again being able to make the Fighter redundant.

That is a bit of a stretch... The Cleric will never keep up with the Fighter's damage in any consistent manner.
The numbers you posted above are obviously heavily skewed - the Cleric is 3 levels higher than the Fighter and has been given an extra turn in those calculations. It also excludes both feats and magic weapons from the calculation, both of which obviously heavily favor the fighter. It also ignores all of the Fighter's class abilities. Comparing a Cleric throwing everything he has into a Fight against a Fighter that is actively restraining himself is no way to compare classes. The fact that you did so and the Fighter still only came out 2 DPR suggests that the Fighter would be far superior in damage if he wasn't so restrained.

[Psikerlord]

IMO spirit guardians is strong but not OP. It's concentration after all and requires the cleric to get in close. As a spell it is also susceptible to dispelling and counterspelling, and it is a limited resource. If the cleric has taken con resilience and warcaster he will tend to keep it going longer, but then it cost him 2 feats to do that, which is fine in my view.

I certainly don't think a warrior style cleric invalidates a fighter, but there can be a fair bit of cross over. The fighter however has free short rest heals and great burst with action surge.

[thereaper]

That is a bit of a stretch... The Cleric will never keep up with the Fighter's damage in any consistent manner.
The numbers you posted above are obviously heavily skewed - the Cleric is 3 levels higher than the Fighter and has been given an extra turn in those calculations. It also excludes both feats and magic weapons from the calculation, both of which obviously heavily favor the fighter. It also ignores all of the Fighter's class abilities. Comparing a Cleric throwing everything he has into a Fight against a Fighter that is actively restraining himself is no way to compare classes. The fact that you did so and the Fighter still only came out 2 DPR suggests that the Fighter would be far superior in damage if he wasn't so restrained.

The Fighter was level 14 as well. The Cleric doesn't get an extra turn; his loss of an action in the first round is mitigated (and then some) by the fact that most of his Spiritual Weapons and Spiritual Guardians over the course of the day will be cast using higher-level slots than 2nd and 3rd, which means even more damage. Plus, there's nothing stopping him from pre-casting his buffs.

But yes, let's throw feats and Fighter subclass into the mix. Let's say the Fighter has Resilient(whatever), since the Cleric did. Let's say the Fighter is a Battlemaster and has Martial Adept for an extra superiority die (let's also say he has the Sentinel feat, because otherwise he's nowhere near the melee utility of Spirit Guardian's slowing capability). This gives the Fighter 18 Superiority die over the course of a typical day (assuming two short rests). Assuming he burns them all on extra damage and that the average combat lasts 4 rounds, that means that over the course of the day the Fighter's Superiority dice are giving him an average of (18/28)*d8 extra damage, which comes out to just under 3 more dpr for the Fighter.

But wait, we didn't specify the Cleric's domain. So let's say Tempest. That means that twice each short rest, the Cleric can double the damage from his divine strike. So that's an extra 2d8 thunder damage four times a day, which adds (8d8/28) extra dpr, which adds just over 1 dpr to the Cleric. Throw in the AoE of Spirit Guardians, and the Cleric is once again definitely ahead.

And this is without the Cleric giving up his 1st level slots (which he can still use to cast Healing Words at the cost of some dpr if the need comes up).

More importantly, it doesn't matter if the Cleric has 10 or 2 dps over the Fighter. If he is even 90% as good at the Fighter's job as the Fighter while still being able to do his job as a Cleric, then the Fighter is effectively obsolete, because a Fighter with 3 Healing Words per day and Guidance is a heck of a lot better than a Fighter without those things that gets slightly higher damage.

[Ashrym]

By my math, a level 14 Wis 18 Str 16 Cleric using a Greatsword, Spiritual Weapon, and Spirit Guardians will inflict 41 dpr if he lands everything (2d6+3+2d8+1d8+4+3d8). And he will have enough spell slots to do it in 6 separate battles. And this ignores the fact that using higher level spell slots means Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon will do even more damage.

By comparison, a Greatsword-wielding Str 20 Fighter will be doing 39 dpr if he lands everything (3*(2d6+1+4)).

The more I look at it, the harder it is for me to see how this could be balanced. The only real drawbacks are the concentration checks (which the Cleric can easily make with the right feats) and the fact that Spirit Guardians requires giving up an action on the turn you cast it, which is more than made up for in the face of the extra damage from using it in higher spell slots. Even the Fighter's Action Surge can't make up for that.

You are missing accuracy difference, fighting style, bonus ASI's, bonus attack action the fighter can have, or subclass options.

If you just go with damage and not other considerations EK enlarged 5 encounters with GWM and GWF and PAM can still have 20 STR for 3d10+5d4+20+40 with rerolls for 75.5 damage; +3d10+3d4+15+30 more on a surge.

I would look more closely at more options and variables before committing to your assertion.

[Malifice]

I'm doing a flat warrior-to-warrior comparison here. Wizards need not apply.

Divine Strike is for the Cleric's weapon. He attacks, gets the equivalent of another attack from Divine Strike, gets another attack with Spiritual Weapon, then gets the equivalent of yet another attack with Spirit Guardians.

The issue with concentration is that between Resilient (Con) and Warcaster (both of which our hypothetical Cleric will certainly get), the Cleric should have at least an even chance of keeping Spirit Guardians up for the three rounds the battle is likely to last. Then he just begins the process again in the next battle.

I'll happily go toe to toe with this cleric 5 with my raging, Str 18, GWM, axe using frenzy barbarian 5.

You're getting three attacks a round back at you at +2 (with advantage) dealing 1d12+17 damage per hit.

Good luck making a concentration save against even one of those hits.

I have around 55 hit points. I should last about three rounds taking damage from the spell and your attacks.

Or an action surging, S and B BM fighter.

Bonus action to shove you prone. Followed by 4 attacks at +7 with advantage dealing 2d8+6 damage each.

Or a paladin smiting. Even a DW rogue at that level deals 5d6+4 DPR (conservatively) while halving the damage he takes back in return via uncanny dodge.

It's no more imprssive DPR than any of the above, and it's useable once per day at 5th level.

Doesn't look broken to me at all.

[thereaper]

The trick doesn't work at low levels, because the Cleric won't have enough spell slots to do it for more than one or two battles.

As for your challenge at higher levels, I can't speak for the Barbarian or the Rogue because I haven't looked very deeply into them. And as for the Paladin, it doesn't even matter because a Paladin of 6th level or higher can earn his place in a high-enough level party simply by being present, even if he isn't actually doing anything (+4 or +5 to everybody's saves means a lot when nobody can get more than three saving throw proficiencies).

[Slipperychicken]

By my math, a level 14 Wis 18 Str 16 Cleric using a Greatsword, Spiritual Weapon, and Spirit Guardians will inflict 41 dpr if he lands everything (2d6+3+2d8+1d8+4+3d8). And he will have enough spell slots to do it in 6 separate battles. And this ignores the fact that using higher level spell slots means Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon will do even more damage.

By comparison, a Greatsword-wielding Str 20 Fighter will be doing 39 dpr if he lands everything (3*(2d6+1+4)).

The more I look at it, the harder it is for me to see how this could be balanced. The only real drawbacks are the concentration checks (which the Cleric can easily make with the right feats) and the fact that Spirit Guardians requires giving up an action on the turn you cast it, which is more than made up for in the face of the extra damage from using it in higher spell slots. Even the Fighter's Action Surge can't make up for that.

Several problems here:

Level 20 fighters attack four times with their action, not three.
Greatsword-weilding fighters will typically have great weapon fighting style. That means the 2d6 will average to 8.33, not 7.
A fighter will almost always have feats to support his fighting style, in this case almost certainly Great Weapon Master. Even without the power attack, that gives him pretty good chances of an additional attack each round (18.55% chance to crit at least once on four d20 rolls [47.80% if the fighter is a Champion, critting on 18-20], in addition to his chance to reduce an opponent to zero hit points with one of those). I will represent this as adding a fifth attack roughly every other turn, or .48 an attack on average.
A level 20 fighter can action surge twice in a short rest. This is quite significant, especially if the party tends to get short rests between fights.


Even without power attacking, a level 20 champion fighter is doing upwards of (4.48* ( [2d6 reroll 1s and 2s]+5)) = 59.72 damage per round, assuming that his attacks hit and his criticals are cancelled out by low damage rolls. If he power attacks wisely, he can boost his expected damage. This is also ignoring the facts he can action surge twice per short rest to burst farther ahead of the cleric, that the fighter does not need a buff-round to get going, and will not need to make concentration saves.

A non-champion can use other means to improve his damage. An EK for example, can cast Haste four times per day, giving him an extra attack. His damage would look more like (5.18*([2d6 reroll 1s and 2s]+5))= 69.05. There may be other more efficient ways for an EK to use his remaining spells, like perhaps casting enlarge.

[DemonSlayer6]

I play in a party that normally has a Fighter, a Cleric, a Sorceress, a Druid, a Monk, and my Bard. And what I have noticed is:

The Sorceress increases damage output proportionately to the number of enemies. Unload a spell on 9 enemies, and that's at least 40d6 (max 240 damage output, or DO) damage dealt.
The Cleric increases damage output proportionately to the number of enemies, but does so more consistently. He can do 8d8 per turn total against 3 to 4 people (max 64 damage per round or DPR), but then has to hold it for 4 or 5 rounds to beat out the Sorceress in total damage.
The Monk does less raw damage than the Cleric, a standard 2d6, but is able to burst multiple times for 4d6 per round. Plus, ability score modifier enabling this to be an effective 5d6 to 7d6 damage.
The Fighter does consistent damage. Yes this is only 2d8 per turn which is less than a surrounded Cleric, but does this regardless of whether there's one enemy or ten. Also, this gets the ability modifier added to each attack, making an effective 3d8 to 4d8.


Let's assume that "random encounters" can be split between "large" and "small" parties of enemies. Let's also assume that said encounters can be split between "high level" and "low level" enemies.

The Sorceress is best against large parties with low-level enemies. The Cleric is best against large parties with high-level enemies. The Fighter is best against small parties with high-level enemies. The Monk is best against small parties with low-level enemies.

----

In fact, the usual tactics are for the Sorceress to explode everything. Then the Cleric takes the the largest group, the Fighter takes the strongest enemy one-on-one, and the Monk takes out the mooks that threaten the Cleric and/or the Fighter.

The Druid and Bard...We fluctuate between "small parties with high-level enemies" and "large parties with low-level enemies". Shatter is a CON save for 3d8 THUNDER to each creature in a 10-foot radius (meaning up to 10 targets); Moonbeam is prolonged a CON save for 2d10 RADIANT for up to 4 targets. That's 30d8 (up to 240) total damage output and 8d10 (up to 80) DPR.

Meanwhile, a 4d6 great sword with multi-attack permitted Opal the Bard to slay a two-headed giant single-handed. And two giant Seagull/Vulture hybrids working together make even a basilisk into easy prey. So no matter what we face, no one has to face it alone.

[Ziegander]

The Fighter was level 14 as well. The Cleric doesn't get an extra turn; his loss of an action in the first round is mitigated (and then some) by the fact that most of his Spiritual Weapons and Spiritual Guardians over the course of the day will be cast using higher-level slots than 2nd and 3rd, which means even more damage. Plus, there's nothing stopping him from pre-casting his buffs.

But yes, let's throw feats and Fighter subclass into the mix. Let's say the Fighter has Resilient(whatever), since the Cleric did. Let's say the Fighter is a Battlemaster and has Martial Adept for an extra superiority die (let's also say he has the Sentinel feat, because otherwise he's nowhere near the melee utility of Spirit Guardian's slowing capability). This gives the Fighter 18 Superiority die over the course of a typical day (assuming two short rests). Assuming he burns them all on extra damage and that the average combat lasts 4 rounds, that means that over the course of the day the Fighter's Superiority dice are giving him an average of (18/28)*d8 extra damage, which comes out to just under 3 more dpr for the Fighter.

But wait, we didn't specify the Cleric's domain. So let's say Tempest. That means that twice each short rest, the Cleric can double the damage from his divine strike. So that's an extra 2d8 thunder damage four times a day, which adds (8d8/28) extra dpr, which adds just over 1 dpr to the Cleric. Throw in the AoE of Spirit Guardians, and the Cleric is once again definitely ahead.

And this is without the Cleric giving up his 1st level slots (which he can still use to cast Healing Words at the cost of some dpr if the need comes up).

More importantly, it doesn't matter if the Cleric has 10 or 2 dps over the Fighter. If he is even 90% as good at the Fighter's job as the Fighter while still being able to do his job as a Cleric, then the Fighter is effectively obsolete, because a Fighter with 3 Healing Words per day and Guidance is a heck of a lot better than a Fighter without those things that gets slightly higher damage.

Wait. Really? OR, or, maybe we're just looking at a Champion Fighter who has two extra ASIs over the Cleric so he's got Resilient (Wis), Sentinel, Great Weapon Master AND Strength 20 throwing around three attacks per round with an attack bonus of either +10 or +5 dealing either 2d6+5 or 2d6+15 each (minimum average damage here, assuming no criticals, no bonus action attacks, no reaction attacks, and no power attacks, is 39.99). Since you're not looking at to-hit vs AC/saving throw ratios at all, even if we continue to ignore criticals, bonus action and reaction attacks, and just include power attacks, that makes the Fighter's average damage per round 69.99, a whopping 26.99 points more per round than your complex calculation involving a Tempest Cleric, concentration, and multiple spells slots expended over multiple turns over multiple encounters over the course of the day. The Great Weapon Master Champion can deal 69.99 DPR in every round of every combat of every day, not including his Action Surge, not including critical hits, not including possible bonus action attacks, and not including possible reaction attacks.

[Pex]

By my math, a level 14 Wis 18 Str 16 Cleric using a Greatsword, Spiritual Weapon, and Spirit Guardians will inflict 41 dpr if he lands everything (2d6+3+2d8+1d8+4+3d8). And he will have enough spell slots to do it in 6 separate battles. And this ignores the fact that using higher level spell slots means Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon will do even more damage.

By comparison, a Greatsword-wielding Str 20 Fighter will be doing 39 dpr if he lands everything (3*(2d6+1+4)).

The more I look at it, the harder it is for me to see how this could be balanced. The only real drawbacks are the concentration checks (which the Cleric can easily make with the right feats) and the fact that Spirit Guardians requires giving up an action on the turn you cast it, which is more than made up for in the face of the extra damage from using it in higher spell slots. Even the Fighter's Action Surge can't make up for that.

The cleric has to be of a few specific domains to get the weapon proficiency and cast two spells. The fighter just has to exist. You haven't given the fighter a combat style, most likely reroll 1s and 2s, feats, or class features such as Battle Master maneuvers, Champion critical hits, or Eldritch Knight spells.

[thereaper]

The Combat Style (Great Weapon Fighting) represents that +1 in the Fighter's damage.


Wait. Really? OR, or, maybe we're just looking at a Champion Fighter who has two extra ASIs over the Cleric so he's got Resilient (Wis), Sentinel, Great Weapon Master AND Strength 20 throwing around three attacks per round with an attack bonus of either +10 or +5 dealing either 2d6+5 or 2d6+15 each (minimum average damage here, assuming no criticals, no bonus action attacks, no reaction attacks, and no power attacks, is 39.99). Since you're not looking at to-hit vs AC/saving throw ratios at all, even if we continue to ignore criticals, bonus action and reaction attacks, and just include power attacks, that makes the Fighter's average damage per round 69.99, a whopping 26.99 points more per round than your complex calculation involving a Tempest Cleric, concentration, and multiple spells slots expended over multiple turns over multiple encounters over the course of the day. The Great Weapon Master Champion can deal 69.99 DPR in every round of every combat of every day, not including his Action Surge, not including critical hits, not including possible bonus action attacks, and not including possible reaction attacks.

It's 36, not 39.99. I didn't include AC/Saving Throws because that favors the Cleric even more, since Spirit Guardians does half damage even on a successful save (to say nothing of it being AoE and having a 15 foot reach). Attacks do nothing on a miss, and Power Attacking makes that more likely. Taking accuracy into account means the Fighter falls significantly behind.

All the Fighter really has over our hypothetical Cleric is 1 hp/level.

[coredump]

yeah, the comparisons have been pretty slap-dash..... the cleric can put together some neat tricks.... but just can't keep up with the fighter's damage output. The fighter has better styles, feats, features, etc.


OTOH, just to stir the pot.... remember that Spirit guardians can work twice in a turn. When you walk over to a bad guy they make a save. If you stop there, they will make another save ontheir turn.

But even with that.... the cleric takes time to get everything going, and still can't compete with the fighter's damage output.

I also notice folks keep assuming the cleric will just have all of these feats, and high stats....somehow...
And even with advantage, the cleric is going to miss a decent number of conc checks.

[Flashy]

The cleric has to be of a few specific domains to get the weapon proficiency and cast two spells. The fighter just has to exist. You haven't given the fighter a combat style, most likely reroll 1s and 2s, feats, or class features such as Battle Master maneuvers, Champion critical hits, or Eldritch Knight spells.

Pretty much exactly this. There are a fair number of advantages to playing a cleric, but they certainly don't invalidate fighters when it comes to reliable DPR.

The best you're going to do on damage for Spirit Guardians would likely be a lore bard with Find Steed for two copies of the spell at once, and that depends on the pretty shaky ruling that Spirit Guardians is a spell that targets only the bard.

[Ziegander]

The Combat Style (Great Weapon Fighting) represents that +1 in the Fighter's damage.

No. 8.33 vs 7 over three attacks is 3.99, not 1.

{scrubbed}

[Ashrym]

Pretty much exactly this. There are a fair number of advantages to playing a cleric, but they certainly don't invalidate fighters when it comes to reliable DPR.

The best you're going to do on damage for Spirit Guardians would likely be a lore bard with Find Steed for two copies of the spell at once, and that depends on the pretty shaky ruling that Spirit Guardians is a spell that targets only the bard.

Spirit Guardians doesn't target self. The range is self.

The same overlapping effect also doesn't stack per combining magical effects even if it could be also cast by the steed.

[Flashy]

Spirit Guardians doesn't target self. The range is self.

The same overlapping effect also doesn't stack per combining magical effects even if it could be also cast by the steed.

Oh, no, I totally agree. It's not in the rules, I just meant it was a sort of theoretical maximum if you essentially house-ruled it in.

[MaxWilson]

Also, on the wizzard list you have stinking cloud with a larger area of effect, total enemy immobilization on a failed save, and a shorter concentration time so you never feel as though you lost as much use if you lose concentration.

Stinking Cloud doesn't immobilize. You lose action, not movement.

[Theodoxus]

Or the Bard.

Our bard, when he hit 6th level, seriously considered taking Tiny Hut and Spirit Guardian - we were about to assault a bridge (15' wide) and figured casting Spirit Guardians, then Tiny Hut in the middle of the bridge would deter any counterassault.

He ended up taking fireball instead, and clearing the bridge of the popcorn, but I still think if you can find tactical chokepoints often enough, that combo is quite broken.

[Malifice]

The Fighter was level 14 as well. The Cleric doesn't get an extra turn; his loss of an action in the first round is mitigated (and then some) by the fact that most of his Spiritual Weapons and Spiritual Guardians over the course of the day will be cast using higher-level slots than 2nd and 3rd, which means even more damage. Plus, there's nothing stopping him from pre-casting his buffs.

But yes, let's throw feats and Fighter subclass into the mix. Let's say the Fighter has Resilient(whatever), since the Cleric did. Let's say the Fighter is a Battlemaster and has Martial Adept for an extra superiority die (let's also say he has the Sentinel feat, because otherwise he's nowhere near the melee utility of Spirit Guardian's slowing capability). This gives the Fighter 18 Superiority die over the course of a typical day (assuming two short rests). Assuming he burns them all on extra damage and that the average combat lasts 4 rounds, that means that over the course of the day the Fighter's Superiority dice are giving him an average of (18/28)*d8 extra damage, which comes out to just under 3 more dpr for the Fighter.

But wait, we didn't specify the Cleric's domain. So let's say Tempest. That means that twice each short rest, the Cleric can double the damage from his divine strike. So that's an extra 2d8 thunder damage four times a day, which adds (8d8/28) extra dpr, which adds just over 1 dpr to the Cleric. Throw in the AoE of Spirit Guardians, and the Cleric is once again definitely ahead.

And this is without the Cleric giving up his 1st level slots (which he can still use to cast Healing Words at the cost of some dpr if the need comes up).

More importantly, it doesn't matter if the Cleric has 10 or 2 dps over the Fighter. If he is even 90% as good at the Fighter's job as the Fighter while still being able to do his job as a Cleric, then the Fighter is effectively obsolete, because a Fighter with 3 Healing Words per day and Guidance is a heck of a lot better than a Fighter without those things that gets slightly higher damage.

You're doing the numbers wrong.

You seriously arguing that a BM fighter 14 deals less DPR than a tempest cleric of the same level?

I'll use my two extra feats to take marksman and crossbow master. Dex 20. Alert feat. Hand crossbow drawn.

+10 to initiative. Should go first. 7 attacks at +7 dealing 1d6+15 damage each. Misses get turned into hits with sup dice (d10). Hits get turned into menacing attacks also dealing an extra d10 damage - and stopping you moving closer (unless you're immune to fear).

With no Crits and using non magical bows and arrows, if they all hit (which thanks to precise shot, they pretty much all will) that's 7d6+105 points of damage. Every Attack that hits without precise shot deals an extra d10 damage.

I'm not seeing a cleric trump that kind of ranged single target nova damage.

[KorvinStarmast]

Just because a player character gets to do something awesome doesn't mean it's overpowered, including spellcasters casting spells. QFT.

When one considers how many times per day it is available, and how many encounters the game was designed for in a given game day. (2-3 short rests, 6 -9 encounters) it gives a nice burst versus certain opponents, and then isn't there.

[PoeticDwarf]

When you get right down to it, it's effectively +3d8 damage in melee every turn (better, in fact, because it's AoE). The fact that it allows a wisdom save doesn't really matter, because there's no practical difference between making an attack roll versus forcing an enemy to roll a save.

Throw in Divine Strike and Spiritual Weapon, and it seems to me like Clericzilla is alive and well.

The wizard's faithful hound can do 4d8 extra damage. It's strong, but not overpowered.
Like fireball, I still think you don't need higher level spells that can kill more people.

[GiantOctopodes]

You're doing the numbers wrong.

You seriously arguing that a BM fighter 14 deals less DPR than a tempest cleric of the same level?

I'll use my two extra feats to take marksman and crossbow master. Dex 20. Alert feat. Hand crossbow drawn.

+10 to initiative. Should go first. 7 attacks at +7 dealing 1d6+15 damage each. Misses get turned into hits with sup dice (d10). Hits get turned into menacing attacks also dealing an extra d10 damage - and stopping you moving closer (unless you're immune to fear).

With no Crits and using non magical bows and arrows, if they all hit (which thanks to precise shot, they pretty much all will) that's 7d6+105 points of damage. Every Attack that hits without precise shot deals an extra d10 damage.

I'm not seeing a cleric trump that kind of ranged single target nova damage.

The question is not "When expending all of their resources for the day, who can deal the most damage in one round". The answer to that is Paladin, or better yet Paladin 2 / Fighter 2 / Bard of Valor X, who can burn through all their spell slots using Divine Smite with a max of 6 attacks per round (with self cast haste and GWM), all of which have up to +5d8 damage (or more accurately, 1d10+5d8+15, for 6d10+30d8+90 total damage).

The question is rather, who does better damage, accounting sure for that initial burst, but then also for the sustained damage afterwards. I don't have time to crunch those numbers right now, but I should also point out that the conventions which apply to balancing monsters indicate AOE effects should be counted as hitting two targets, so I'd argue the same is true here. Keep in mind Spirit Guardians lasts a ridiculous 10 minutes, so possibly multiple fights. Figuring out sustained damage over 5-10 rounds would be more meaningful than "burst" damage.

[coredump]

The question is not "When expending all of their resources for the day, who can deal the most damage in one round". The answer to that is Paladin, or better yet Paladin 2 / Fighter 2 / Bard of Valor X, who can burn through all their spell slots using Divine Smite with a max of 6 attacks per round (with self cast haste and GWM), all of which have up to +5d8 damage (or more accurately, 1d10+5d8+15, for 6d10+30d8+90 total damage).
.
Can you find a way to squeeze in Rogue(assassin) 3? Adds 2D6 SA to each attack, and if you go first you get auto-crit to double all of those dice... :smallbiggrin:

[thereaper]

No. 8.33 vs 7 over three attacks is 3.99, not 1.



Okay, sure. I get it now, you're a troll. Carry on.

The +1 gets multiplied by 3 in my equation, although I can now see that I only gave the Fighter a +4 strength modifier when it should have been +5, which gives him another 3 damage. Let's give him that extra +1 because you say so. But it still doesn't matter because the Cleric's Spirit Guardians does half damage on a "miss", so even if the Fighter had 10 dpr over the Cleric when everything hits the Cleric's dpr in practice would still be higher, since things don't always hit.

And that's before considering the AoE and 15 foot reach of Spirit Guardians.

Don't get me wrong. I would love for the Fighter to have more dpr over the course of a day than a Cleric who put all his spells into it (and I believed 5e had fixed that until now), but everything I'm seeing here indicates otherwise.

[ruy343]

I also notice folks keep assuming the cleric will just have all of these feats, and high stats....somehow...

Coredump has a point here: being a melee cleric with Str 20 AND Wis 20 AND Con 20 is unlikely if you use the standard array. In fact, that's just not possible. Granted, some people roll some ridiculous stats to make the game more fun for the power-hungry out there, and that's their call to make, but that shouldn't apply to theorycrafting like this. The fighter gets a significant advantage in their ability to get more ASIs, which lets them typically have higher stats and more feat options. The Cleric is too MAD to make their other spellcasting worth it if you're stressing your ability to maintain a Con save and have a high enough strength to be a fighter replacement.

Does that outweigh the benefits of a situational spell like spirit guardians that requires a con save (which, if you're taking the war caster feat AND resilient feat AND giving yourself a +5 to constitution for that save, you're super-human or something)? That's up to your call. Have you tested it at your table? do all players feel like they contribute to combats?

Let's take this out of theorycrafting, and away from ludicrously high stats, and see how the idea flies, hm?

[coredump]

Here is what it comes down to.

If you think this cleric build is OP. Instead of just throwing out potentials.... create the build, and then we can make direct comparisons.

Provide us with this 'fighter-shaming' cleric build, and lets see how his DPR stands up to an actual fighter.

[mephnick]

I still don't know where people are finding these clerics with spirit guardians that aren't getting peppered with hits as they stride into melee range.

It's not +3d8 every turn. It's +3d8 until you lose concentration. And it costs you a 3rd level spell slot which is not insignificant for a large portion of the game.

[Spojaz]

If concentration is maintained, Spirit Guardians has a duration of 10 minutes! The cleric in my party cast it and sprinted around the zombie dungeon absolutely massacring just about every hostile in the whole place. They were all in groups of three to six, almost all of which would expire to the first hit. He ended up doing hundreds and hundreds of damage in total before the spell expired. He happened to make the two or three concentration saving throws he had to take during that time, but still.
My AOE wizard had just gotten the long-wished-for fireball, and I felt extremely under-powered. The cleric asked me at one point, "why did you waste a whole 3rd level spell on those ones? You could have just waited for me to wander in."
It might have just been the theme of the dungeon, as unintelligent low-hit-point crowds are Spirit Guardians's best use case, but that is the case for fireball too.

[SharkForce]

Coredump has a point here: being a melee cleric with Str 20 AND Wis 20 AND Con 20 is unlikely if you use the standard array. In fact, that's just not possible. Granted, some people roll some ridiculous stats to make the game more fun for the power-hungry out there, and that's their call to make, but that shouldn't apply to theorycrafting like this. The fighter gets a significant advantage in their ability to get more ASIs, which lets them typically have higher stats and more feat options. The Cleric is too MAD to make their other spellcasting worth it if you're stressing your ability to maintain a Con save and have a high enough strength to be a fighter replacement.

Does that outweigh the benefits of a situational spell like spirit guardians that requires a con save (which, if you're taking the war caster feat AND resilient feat AND giving yourself a +5 to constitution for that save, you're super-human or something)? That's up to your call. Have you tested it at your table? do all players feel like they contribute to combats?

Let's take this out of theorycrafting, and away from ludicrously high stats, and see how the idea flies, hm?

the idea flies over to nature cleric (or magic initiate) and only needing two attributes.

not exactly a huge improvement, but whatever. it's not like this is the first time a class has had comparable damage output to a fighter, but vastly more capability in other areas.

[thereaper]

Coredump has a point here: being a melee cleric with Str 20 AND Wis 20 AND Con 20 is unlikely if you use the standard array. In fact, that's just not possible. Granted, some people roll some ridiculous stats to make the game more fun for the power-hungry out there, and that's their call to make, but that shouldn't apply to theorycrafting like this. The fighter gets a significant advantage in their ability to get more ASIs, which lets them typically have higher stats and more feat options. The Cleric is too MAD to make their other spellcasting worth it if you're stressing your ability to maintain a Con save and have a high enough strength to be a fighter replacement.

Does that outweigh the benefits of a situational spell like spirit guardians that requires a con save (which, if you're taking the war caster feat AND resilient feat AND giving yourself a +5 to constitution for that save, you're super-human or something)? That's up to your call. Have you tested it at your table? do all players feel like they contribute to combats?

Let's take this out of theorycrafting, and away from ludicrously high stats, and see how the idea flies, hm?

I already mentioned it was a Str 16 Cleric, not 20. The Fighter gets 20 Str.

I haven't considered durability in these calculations. That's the only area where the Fighter has an edge. But having a few more hit points doesn't justify exclusion in a party when the other guy can do more sustained dpr with just as much aggro control (Spirit Guardians lowers enemy speed) and domain features and being able to pick up people who drop with Healing Words (it works just fine as a 1st level spell, so it doesn't interfere with Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon spam).

[Vogonjeltz]

When you get right down to it, it's effectively +3d8 damage in melee every turn (better, in fact, because it's AoE). The fact that it allows a wisdom save doesn't really matter, because there's no practical difference between making an attack roll versus forcing an enemy to roll a save.

Throw in Divine Strike and Spiritual Weapon, and it seems to me like Clericzilla is alive and well.

It requires concentration, which is a constitution saving throw, which clerics don't have proficiency in. If the cleric is lucky nobody shoots him with a ranged weapon forcing a save that he has a 50% chance of failing.

And that's assuming the attack does <10 damage. I've had single attacks deal up to 30 damage, which is impossible to maintain concentration against. Furthermore, it's a save against every attack...that could be 6+ saves in a single round for the fights I've seen. If 6 attacks land, the base save will be made against all of them 1.5% of the time.

Like Slipperychicken I think it's a good combination if you can manage to keep it going, but I don't know why the enemy wouldn't focus fire you the moment it gets going (meaning I don't think it's at all overpowered).


Just because a player character gets to do something awesome doesn't mean it's overpowered, including spellcasters casting spells.

Pretty much this, and it definitely applies to something that's only kind of awesome.


This is about the Cleric seemingly once again being able to make the Fighter redundant.

Definitely not what is occurring here.


The question is rather, who does better damage, accounting sure for that initial burst, but then also for the sustained damage afterwards. I don't have time to crunch those numbers right now, but I should also point out that the conventions which apply to balancing monsters indicate AOE effects should be counted as hitting two targets, so I'd argue the same is true here. Keep in mind Spirit Guardians lasts a ridiculous 10 minutes, so possibly multiple fights. Figuring out sustained damage over 5-10 rounds would be more meaningful than "burst" damage.

Yeah, for example it takes a Champion 6 attacks to exceed the extra damage burst of a single superiority die (so, ~2 rounds). It makes sense that the higher sustained damage will eventually win out, the benefit of burst is that, maybe, you can end a combat early, or suffering little in the way of attrition.

I'd be surprised if Spirit Guardian lasted more than a couple of rounds, let alone 10 minutes, because of the concentration weakness.

[Ashrym]

The +1 gets multiplied by 3 in my equation, although I can now see that I only gave the Fighter a +4 strength modifier when it should have been +5, which gives him another 3 damage. Let's give him that extra +1 because you say so. But it still doesn't matter because the Cleric's Spirit Guardians does half damage on a "miss", so even if the Fighter had 10 dpr over the Cleric when everything hits the Cleric's dpr in practice would still be higher, since things don't always hit.

And that's before considering the AoE and 15 foot reach of Spirit Guardians.

Don't get me wrong. I would love for the Fighter to have more dpr over the course of a day than a Cleric who put all his spells into it (and I believed 5e had fixed that until now), but everything I'm seeing here indicates otherwise.

You estimates don't work because they ignore too much.

A human variant nature cleric is likely your best bet because the build doesn't take a feat to add shillelagh and avoids MAD that way, can add CON save proficiency, polearm master, and 2 ASI's towards WIS for decent combat without needing extra slots on spiritual weapon. You could use spiritual weapon instead and use the polearm master feat on warcaster to get that good concentration save. I would use polearm master so you have some slots for other spells, at least a few prayers of healing that way.

Weapon damage would be d8 but WIS would be 20 to cover both spells and melee attacks, and you get to choose bonus damage type, and keep a shield.

That gives d8+5 For the attack action, d4+5 For the bonus attack action, +2d8 if either of them hit, and 18 DC for spirit guardians at 14th level.

5% crit 2d8+5= 0.7
60% normal 1d8+5= 5.7
5% crit 2d4+5= 0.5
60% normal 1d4+5= 4.5
5% crit 4d8= 0.9 (tad off but close enuff)
82.75% 2d8= 7.45 (tad off again)
Estimated DPR at 65% accuracy = 19.75 plus spells.

Assuming +0 on the save would be 85% full damage + 15% half damage.

For example, 3d8 would be 85%*3d8+15%*3d8/2 per target per round less ~19.75 for the encounter after losing first round attacks, and with decreasing benefits each round enemies die. Over a 4 round encounter averaging 2 targets per round adds ~20 DPR to the encounter for ~39.75 but vs single target encounters would be about ~7.55 for ~ 27.3 DPR.

A battlemaster with a halberd, GWF, GWM, polearm master, and 20 STR using precision attack to prevent 3 misses per short rest looks like this...

3*5% crit 2d10+10+5 (rerolls) = 4.14
3*35% normal 1d10+10+5 (rerolls) = 22.37
14.25% crit bonus attack (approx)
5% crit 2d10+10+5 (rerolls) = 0.23
35% normal 1d10+10+5 (rerolls) = 1.06
85.75% normal bonus attack
5% crit 2d4+10+5 (rerolls) = 0.94
35% normal 1d4+10+5 (rerolls) = 5.55
Estimated DPR before maneuvers and action surge: 34.29

Action surge (1/short rest) assuming 2 4-round encounters:

.125*3*5% crits 2d10+10+5 (rerolls) = 0.52
.125*3*35% normal 1d10+10+5 (rerolls) = 2.8

5 maneuvers per short rest, 3 on precision attack, 2 on rider attacks (d10's):

.125*3 * 1d10+10+5 (rerolls) = 8.0
.125*2*5% crit 2d10 (rerolls) = 0.16
.125*2*95% 1d10 (rerolls) = 1.5

Estimated DPR on the sample fighter: 47.27

In a 7th-level slot, just the spirit guardians is doing about the same damage as the fighter if 2 targets exist for 4 rounds. In all cases, either has peaks and shine moments, and the fighter is generally more damage and better key target damage.

The next argument is likely whether the cleric at ~90% of the fighter damage is badwrongfun even though combat is more random than that, almost all spells are going to damage, both have shine moments, and there are other differences than damage. ;-)

[Shining Wrath]

It's fine as a player spell, and I don't agree that the Fighter has been invalidated because a particular clerical build can sometimes throw out lots of DPR. Building the cleric to make Concentration saves involves two feats (Warcaster and Resilient(CON)), plus probably at least, maybe two ASI buffing Constitution. That's a big investment. After all that, a level 14 Cleric gets to save with advantage at +10 on the die roll, trying to beat the greater of 10 or half the damage taken. At level 14 an attack doing 30 or more points of damage per turn is not unusual; the cleric will miss a save against 30 (DC 15) one time in 25 (4%), and the odds drop from there; as his level rises, he'll get exactly one more bonus to his save when proficiency goes to 6, but the damage done by the monsters will rise; e.g., a copper dragon (CR 21) does 63 damage with its breath (31 DC so our cleric must roll a 20 on one of their two dice).

Where Spirit Guardians strikes me as OP is when used by a NPC against the party. An enemy that knows the party is coming can have SG up when they enter the room and move to engage while they are bunched up coming through the door. Ouchies.

[Malifice]

The question is not "When expending all of their resources for the day, who can deal the most damage in one round".

Superiority dice and action surge are not 'once per day' resources. 3-4 times per day resources actually (going by recommended rests per day).

Arguably more if 1 hour rests are not policed by the DM.

Clerical spells on the other hand, are.

[GiantOctopodes]

Superiority dice and action surge are not 'once per day' resources. 3-4 times per day resources actually (going by recommended rests per day).

Arguably more if 1 hour rests are not policed by the DM.

Clerical spells on the other hand, are.

You also have more than 5-7 spell slots. Would you feel better then if it was instead a Paladin/Warlock, so their spells came back after short rests? The point remains either way that measuring offensive potential off a single round is a relatively meaningless way to approach it. Looking at DPR over anything less than 4-5 rounds is simply an incomplete picture of things, since regardless of how many rounds you expect them to engage in combat between short rests, it's not likely to be 1.

[Giant2005]

You also have more than 5-7 spell slots. Would you feel better then if it was instead a Paladin/Warlock, so their spells came back after short rests? The point remains either way that measuring offensive potential off a single round is a relatively meaningless way to approach it. Looking at DPR over anything less than 4-5 rounds is simply an incomplete picture of things, since regardless of how many rounds you expect them to engage in combat between short rests, it's not likely to be 1.

The standard listed in the DMG is to average the damage potential of the first 3 rounds of combat, assume everything hits (And it not saved against) and that AOE attacks land on two targets.
The Cleric's expected average damage per round under the conditions given to us by the book is: 47.3 (I posted the math in an earlier post within this thread).
A Battlemaster Fighter's average damage per round under those same conditions is: (8.33 x 20 + 300 + 6d12)/3 = 168.56 (Using a greatsword, GWF, GWM, Action Surge, and Superiority Dice)
I think that after looking at those numbers, it is pretty safe to say that the Cleric isn't rendering anyone obsolete.
In fact, if you look at the graph here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit?usp=sharing), you can see that the Cleric's DPR that is assuming everything hits doesn't even compare to the actual expected damage of other classes (That takes into consideration miss chance for example).

[Malifice]

You also have more than 5-7 spell slots. Would you feel better then if it was instead a Paladin/Warlock, so their spells came back after short rests? The point remains either way that measuring offensive potential off a single round is a relatively meaningless way to approach it. Looking at DPR over anything less than 4-5 rounds is simply an incomplete picture of things, since regardless of how many rounds you expect them to engage in combat between short rests, it's not likely to be 1.

You're missing a ton of variables though. Your damage is short range only, its able to be dropped via anything that drops concentration, it's a one trick pony.

I did a sustained DPR calculation earlier in a different thread (assuming a 3 encounters of 3 rounds then short rest x 3 adventuring day), and BM fighters come out on top (with Champion coming on top once they have to deal with greater number of encounters per short rest).

Spirit Guardians is not broken or OP. It just provides a method for a Cleric to keep up with that DPR (when he's not busy buffing other party members, or healing or whatever).

[coredump]

the idea flies over to nature cleric (or magic initiate) and only needing two attributes.

not exactly a huge improvement, but whatever. it's not like this is the first time a class has had comparable damage output to a fighter, but vastly more capability in other areas.


I already mentioned it was a Str 16 Cleric, not 20. The Fighter gets 20 Str.

I haven't considered durability in these calculations. That's the only area where the Fighter has an edge. But having a few more hit points doesn't justify exclusion in a party when the other guy can do more sustained dpr with just as much aggro control (Spirit Guardians lowers enemy speed) and domain features and being able to pick up people who drop with Healing Words (it works just fine as a 1st level spell, so it doesn't interfere with Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon spam).


You also have more than 5-7 spell slots. Would you feel better then if it was instead a Paladin/Warlock, so their spells came back after short rests? The point remains either way that measuring offensive potential off a single round is a relatively meaningless way to approach it. Looking at DPR over anything less than 4-5 rounds is simply an incomplete picture of things, since regardless of how many rounds you expect them to engage in combat between short rests, it's not likely to be 1.

Again, if anyone is convinced the cleric can out do the fighter....stop with the vague assertions and build an actual cleric. Pick a level, stats, feats, domain, etc and present the actual PC that is going to go out and make the fighter feel bad.

Otherwise folks are just bouncing around cherry picking whatever is needed for that example.

[thereaper]

I've already done that, but I haven't put it all into one post, so I'll do so now, because I honestly would like to be proven wrong:

Level 14 Variant Human Tempest Cleric
Str 16
Con 16
Wis 20

Feats: Resilient(Con), Warcaster

Equipment: Fullplate, Greatsword

All 3rd, 5th, 6th, and 7th level spell slots reserved for Spirit Guardians
All 2nd and 4th level slots reserved for Spiritual Weapon

Remember, we're concerned with sustained dpr over the course of a day (which in this case means 7 battles, with an assumed 2 short rests per day and 3 rounds per combat); not nova. And since Spirit Guardians has aggro control properties (it slows enemies), any equivalent Fighter has to burn a feat on Sentinel to be comparable (so that they can hinder enemy movement as well).

[Shining Wrath]

I've already done that, but I haven't put it all into one post, so I'll do so now, because I honestly would like to be proven wrong:

Level 14 Variant Human Tempest Cleric
Str 16
Con 16
Wis 20

Feats: Resilient(Con), Warcaster

Equipment: Fullplate, Greatsword

All 3rd, 5th, 6th, and 7th level spell slots reserved for Spirit Guardians
All 2nd and 4th level slots reserved for Spiritual Weapon

Remember, we're concerned with sustained dpr over the course of a day (which in this case means 7 battles, with an assumed 2 short rests per day and 3 rounds per combat); not nova. And since Spirit Guardians has aggro control properties (it slows enemies), any equivalent Fighter has to burn a feat on Sentinel to be comparable (so that they can hinder enemy movement as well).

Fair enough. The following are the CR 14 monsters:

Adult black dragon
Adult copper dragon
Beholder (in lair)
Death tyrant (not in lair)
Ice devil


Assuming the monster decides to take out the guy with the always-on AOE spell first, and that you've closed to near the monster for the AOE to work, the monster might do as follows.

Either dragon is going to try Frightful Presence, with a CR of 16 against a Wisdom save. That's a good save for your cleric, so he saves with 5 (Wis) + 5 (Prof); he needs a 6 or more, so 75% chance of success. He's probably doing better than the Fighter at this.

When that doesn't work, breath attack for 54 points (either dragon), DC 18 Dexterity save for half. This is a normal save and a typical dump stat for clerics; you'll need to roll at least 17 in all likelihood, so 80% of the time you'll take the 54, and now must get a 27 on your concentration check to keep Spiritual Guardians active. That requires a 17 on one of two dice, so you have a 36% chance of success. In any event, you have 8 +3 + (13*(5+3)) = 115 HP; you're now down almost half your HP against a creature that can probably fly away and escape your AOE. Your cumulative chance of losing SG is .8*.64 = .512.

Therefore a CR appropriate dragon will probably blast you, force you to drop your SG, and fly away until the breath weapon recharges, and then ensure it hits you first, every time. A similar technique might be used against a melee fighter, but a ranged fighter is much stronger than the cleric here.

Against the Beholder, it looks at you with the central eye while it fights your friends. And again, it can fly away, and lair effects will not be your friend - your movement will be impaired and you'll be taking random eye attacks. A fighter won't like the lair effects, but won't care one bit about the central eye. A death tyrant will do similar things.

The ice devil is going to form a hemispherical dome of ice with you inside of it. It will take you a while to break out; in the meantime you are doing nothing. A fighter could be imprisoned in the same way but will probably do more weapon damage breaking down the wall; Spirit Guardians only attacks creatures and is of no help against the ice dome.

So I call it this way:

Fighter is clearly better against the Beholder and Death Tyrant, as the central eye stunt pretty much shuts down your bonuses.

Ranged fighter is clearly better against the dragons due to flight. Melee fighter we're looking at DPR, but you're still running a 50-50 chance of losing your SG each time the breath weapon comes online.

Ice devil it's a DPR question except for a slight advantage to the fighter escaping the ice dome.

[Gnomes2169]

... Well this one is going to involve a heck of a lot of time to go through (round by round), access to a monster manual to design level-appropriate encounters and taking into account chances of losing concentration. It will also require a fighter build, and since our cleric is going pure DPR, let's do the same with our fighter friend:

Variant human Fighter (battlemaster) level 14
20 str
16 con
130 Max HP
Feats: Great weapon master, pole arm master, sentinel
Fighting style: Great weapon fighter
Equipment: Full plate, +2 halberd (appropriate for the fighter's level according to the DMG)
Second wind: 1d10+14 HP/ short rest
Action surge: 1/ short rest
Extra attack: 3 1d10+7 attacks/ turn at +12 apiece (and 1 bonus 1d4+7 attack at +12 as well)
Superiority dice: Five 1d10 dice/ short rest (will be used whenever they would be most effective)
Maneuvers: Trip, reposte, menacing, precise, commander's (not going to be used here, as it burns both an action and bonus action, this two attacks/ round), maneuvering strike (again, not the most necessary).

The rest of this will require things that I do not have access to at the moment, so the rest is reserved for maaaaaath... Also, could I get the max HP of the cleric? Yes, it is important to the calculations. The cleric can't keep concentrating if they fall unconscious, after all.

Combat 1
Enemies:

Combat 2
Enemies:

Combat 3 (set here since after a long rest the party should have the most resources to expend)
Enemies:

Short rest 1 (here to see what the cleric and fighter regain before moving on)

Combat 4
Enemies:

Combat 5
Enemies:

Short rest 2

Combat 6
Enemies:

Combat 7 (this one includes a BBEG dungeon boss)
Enemies:

Final results

[Malifice]

Maneuvers: Trip, reposte, menacing, precise, commander's (not going to be used here, as it burns both an action and bonus action, this two attacks/ round), maneuvering strike (again, not the most necessary).

Ditch maneuvering strike for precise strike. It's a must have maneuver for GWM builds. It ups your DPR by over 25 percent if not more.

Toggle the -5/+10 GWM on. Then roll to hit. If you miss, expend a dice to turn it into a hit. If you hit, expend a dice to make it a menacing (or tripping) attack and add the dice to damage.

[Gnomes2169]

Ditch maneuvering strike for precise strike. It's a must have maneuver for GWM builds. It ups your DPR by over 25 percent if not more.

Toggle the -5/+10 GWM on. Then roll to hit. If you miss, expend a dice to turn it into a hit. If you hit, expend a dice to make it a menacing (or tripping) attack and add the dice to damage.

Precise was on the list, I thought?

As for GWM, nope, not keeping it always-on. I am finding actual monsters to attack (not just a set AC or HP total), so the -5/+10 will only be used when attacking targets it's advantageous against. (To be fair, for the most part it will be worth it with the fighter's attack bonus... But sometimes a high AC critter will show up, so we won't just have it always on)

[Malifice]

Precise was on the list, I thought?

As for GWM, nope, not keeping it always-on. I am finding actual monsters to attack (not just a set AC or HP total), so the -5/+10 will only be used when attacking targets it's advantageous against. (To be fair, for the most part it will be worth it with the fighter's attack bonus... But sometimes a high AC critter will show up, so we won't just have it always on)

From my experience you'll probably find it pays off even against high AC critters

Single attack w attack bonus +10, GWS, strength 20 and Glaive vs AC20 (GWM on, roll of 5 on sup die, menacing used on a hit, precise on a miss, fractions rounded down):

Roll:
1-9 (miss) 0 damage
10-14 (hit w precise) 21 damage
15-19 (hit w menacing) 26 damage
20 (crit w menacing) 39 damage

[(5x21)+(5x26)+(39)]/20 = 13.7 DPR

Vs AC20, GWM off:
1-4 (miss) 0 damage
5-9 (hit w precise) 11 damage
10-19 (hit w menacing) 16 damage
20 (crit w menacing) 29 damage

[(5x11)+(10x16)+(29)]/20 = 12.2 DPR

[Kryx]

There is a breakpoint based on an opponent's AC, but in general using gwm is mathematically better than not. There is a graph around here.

[Malifice]

There is a breakpoint based on an opponent's AC, but in general using gwm is mathematically better than not. There is a graph around here.

That graph doesn't take into account the benefits of the precise strike manouver.

The beauty of which is you can declare the manoiver after rolling the attack turning the miss into a hit.

If you do hit anyways, you instead declare a menacing or tripping strike and add to the damage.

[Kryx]

That graph doesn't take into account the benefits of the precise strike manouver.

The beauty of which is you can declare the manoiver after rolling the attack turning the miss into a hit.

If you do hit anyways, you instead declare a menacing or tripping strike and add to the damage.
Agreed - using GWM is pretty much always the best choice. With Precision it may always be the best choice.

[Xetheral]

The table is linked in my signature. For a fighter, barbarian, or other classes without a source of bonus damage, GWM can certainly be advantageous. For a rogue or a paladin, with immense burst damage potential, not so much.

Precise strike isn't included in the table as it's a niche (albiet common) case. Halfling rerolls, diviners, and lucky's interaction with disadvantage aren't included either.

Furthermore, the decision whether or not to use precise strike occurs after the attack roll, which complicates the analysis immensely and requires consideration of multiple cases. At a minimum, willingness to risk the die on a miss by x and size of the die varying with level both need to be taken into account, and they interact with each other. These extra dimensions mean presenting the data would require at least 3(7+9+11)=81 tables similar to the linked one to account for the varying permutations introduced by precise strike.

[Ashrym]

I've already done that, but I haven't put it all into one post, so I'll do so now, because I honestly would like to be proven wrong:

Level 14 Variant Human Tempest Cleric
Str 16
Con 16
Wis 20

Feats: Resilient(Con), Warcaster

Equipment: Fullplate, Greatsword

All 3rd, 5th, 6th, and 7th level spell slots reserved for Spirit Guardians
All 2nd and 4th level slots reserved for Spiritual Weapon

Remember, we're concerned with sustained dpr over the course of a day (which in this case means 7 battles, with an assumed 2 short rests per day and 3 rounds per combat); not nova. And since Spirit Guardians has aggro control properties (it slows enemies), any equivalent Fighter has to burn a feat on Sentinel to be comparable (so that they can hinder enemy movement as well).



VS AC 18 it gives this result....


2d6+3 @ 55% accuracy

5% crit 4d6+3 = 0.85
50% normal 2d6+3 = 5.0
5% crit 4d8 = 0.9
79.75% normal 2d8 = 7.1775
weapon DPR*14 rounds = 194.985 damage

2 war priest bonus action attacks in 1 encounter without spiritual hammer
5% crit 4d6+3 = 0.85
50% normal 2d6+3 = 5.0
5% crit 4d8 = 0.9
79.75% normal 2d8 = 7.1775
weapon DPR*2 rounds = 27.855 damage

6 guided strikes to prevent 6 misses
6*normal 2d6+3+2d8 = 114 damage

spiritual weapon lvl 4, 2d8+5 @ 65% accuracy

5% crit 4d8+5 = 1.15
60% normal 2d8+5 = 8.4
lvl 4 DPR*9 rounds = 85.95 damage

spiritual weapon lvl 2, 1d8+5 @ 65% accuracy

5% crit 2d8+5 = 0.7
60% normal 1d8+5 = 5.7
lvl 2 DPR*9 rounds = 57.6 damage

spirit guardians lvl 7, 7d8 @ 90% accuracy
90% fail 7d8 = 28.35
10% save 7d8/2 = 1.575
lvl 7 DPR*3 rounds = 89.775 per target

spirit guardians level 6, 6d8 @ 90% accuracy
90% fail 6d8 = 24.3
10% save 6d8/2 = 1.35
lvl 6 DPR*3 rounds = 76.95 per target

spirit guardians level 5, 5d8 @ 90% accuracy
90% fail 5d8 = 20.25
10% save 5d8/2 = 1.125
lvl 5 DPR*6 rounds = 128.25 per target

spirit guardians level 3, 3d8 @ 90% accuracy
90% fail 5d8 = 12.15
10% save 5d8/2 = 0.675
lvl 3 DPR*9 rounds = 115.425 per target

480.42 damage from weapon (336.887) and spiritual weapon (143.55) attacks and 410.4 damage per target from spirit guardians over 21 rounds, after spirit guardians runs out.
single target DPR = 42.42
assuming 2 spirit guardian targets on average total DPR = 61.96



against a level 14 fighter with polearm mastery, 20 STR, GWM, great weapon fighting style, and sentinel just because you required it, and the healer feat on a variant human
battlemaster, halberd, using -5/+10

3*5% crit 2d10+5+10 (rerolls) = 4.14
3*35% normal 1d10+5+10 (rerolls) = 22.365
//GWM attack bonus action @ 14.25%
5% crit 2d10+5+10 (rerolls) = 0.197
35% normal 1d10+5+10 (rerolls) = 1.062
//PAM attack bonus action @ 85.75%
5% crit 2d4+5+10 (rerolls) = 0.943
35% normal 1d4+5+10 (rerolls) = 5.552

DPR*21 rounds = 719.4506

3 action surges add 9 attacks, no bonus attacks
9*5% crit 2d10+5+10 (rerolls) = 12.43
9*35% normal 1d10+5+10 (rerolls) = 67.095
action surge = 79.525 damage

15 misses prevented by precision attack
15*normal 1d10+5+10 (rerolls) = 319.5 damage

over 21 rounds = 1118.476
DPR = 53.26


against a level 14 fighter with crossbow master, sharpshooter, 20 DEX, archery fighting style, and ritual caster druid because sentinel no longer matters, and the healer feat on a variant human
battlemaster, hand crossbow, using -5/+10

4*5% crit 2d6+5+10 = 4.4
4*45% normal 1d6+5+10 = 33.3

DPR*21 rounds = 791.7

3 action surges add 9 attacks, no bonus attacks
9*5% crit 2d6+5+10 = 9.9
9*45% normal 1d6+5+10 = 74.925
action surge = 84.825 damage

15 misses prevented by precision attack
15*normal 1d6+5+10 = 277.5 damage

over 21 rounds = 1154.025
DPR = 54.95


################################################## ################################################


Same scenario, VS AC 16 instead of 18, +1 weapons available (80% base accuracy), cleric first


2d6+3 @ 65% accuracy

5% crit 4d6+3+1 = 0.9
65% normal 2d6+3+1 = 7.15
5% crit 4d8 = 0.9
84.5% normal 2d8 = 4.5
weapon DPR*14 rounds = 231.77 damage

2 war priest bonus action attacks in 1 encounter without spiritual hammer
5% crit 4d6+3+1 = 0.85
65% normal 2d6+3+1 = 5.0
5% crit 4d8 = 0.9
84.5% normal 2d8 = 4.5
weapon DPR*2 rounds = 33.11 damage

6 guided strikes to prevent 6 misses
6*normal 2d6+3+1+2d8 = 120 damage

spiritual weapon lvl 4, 2d8+5 @ 75% accuracy

5% crit 4d8+5 = 1.15
70% normal 2d8+5 = 9.8
lvl 4 DPR*9 rounds = 98.55 damage

spiritual weapon lvl 2, 1d8+5 @ 75% accuracy

5% crit 2d8+5 = 0.7
70% normal 1d8+5 = 6.65
lvl 2 DPR*9 rounds = 66.15 damage

spirit guardians lvl 7, 7d8 @ 90% accuracy
90% fail 7d8 = 28.35
10% save 7d8/2 = 1.575
lvl 7 DPR*3 rounds = 89.775 per target

spirit guardians level 6, 6d8 @ 90% accuracy
90% fail 6d8 = 24.3
10% save 6d8/2 = 1.35
lvl 6 DPR*3 rounds = 76.95 per target

spirit guardians level 5, 5d8 @ 90% accuracy
90% fail 5d8 = 20.25
10% save 5d8/2 = 1.125
lvl 5 DPR*6 rounds = 128.25 per target

spirit guardians level 3, 3d8 @ 90% accuracy
90% fail 5d8 = 12.15
10% save 5d8/2 = 0.675
lvl 3 DPR*9 rounds = 115.425 per target

549.58 damage from weapon (384.88) and spiritual weapon attacks (164.7) and 410.4 damage per target from spirit guardians over 21 rounds, after spirit guardians runs out.
single target DPR = 45.71
assuming 2 spirit guardian targets on average total DPR = 65.26



against a level 14 fighter with polearm mastery, 20 STR, GWM, great weapon fighting style, and sentinel just because you required it, and the healer feat on a variant human
battlemaster, halberd, using -5/+10

3*5% crit 2d10+5+10+1 (rerolls) = 4.29
3*50% normal 1d10+5+10+1 (rerolls) = 33.45
//GWM attack bonus action @ 14.25%
5% crit 2d10+5+10+1 (rerolls) = 0.204
50% normal 1d10+5+10+1 (rerolls) = 1.589
//PAM attack bonus action @ 85.75%
5% crit 2d4+5+10+1 (rerolls) = 0.986
50% normal 1d4+5+10+1 (rerolls) = 8.361

DPR*21 rounds = 1026.467

3 action surges add 9 attacks, no bonus attacks
9*5% crit 2d10+5+10+1 (rerolls) = 12.87
9*50% normal 1d10+5+10+1 (rerolls) = 100.35
action surge = 113.22 damage

15 misses prevented by precision attack
15*normal 1d10+5+10+1 (rerolls) = 334.5 damage

over 21 rounds = 1474.187
DPR = 70.20. and much higher than the cleric's single or single plus bonus, better hit points, and better healing with the healer feat compared to the cleric only having 4 1st-level slots left.


against a level 14 fighter with crossbow master, sharpshooter, 20 DEX, archery fighting style, and ritual caster druid because sentinel no longer matters, and the healer feat on a variant human
battlemaster, hand crossbow, using -5/+10

4*5% crit 2d6+5+10+1 = 4.6
4*60% normal 1d6+5+10+1 = 46.8
DPR*21 rounds = 1079.4

3 action surges add 9 attacks, no bonus attacks
9*5% crit 2d6+5+10+1 = 10.35
9*60% normal 1d6+5+10+1 = 105.3
action surge = 115.65 damage

15 misses prevented by precision attack
15*normal 1d6+5+10+1 = 292.5 damage

over 21 rounds = 1154.025
DPR = 70.84

A +1 weapon going with the AC 18 is still 62.2 with the hand crossbow, just to keep the comparison with a +1 weapon.


The hand crossbow fighter has ritual spells and better healing than the cleric, better hit points, better range, better burst damage, better focused damage, and better overall damage because not all AC's are that high and not all monsters have no bonus to the saving throw. The only thing the war cleric does in trying is fail at the damage and allows the fighter to also become a better healer than the cleric in the process. The cleric becomes more worse off as additional buffs based on attacks are added to the party or better magical weapons. I think at this point is safe to say the crossbow fighter can tell the war cleric in the example to go pound sand. ;-)

[charcoalninja]

I'll happily go toe to toe with this cleric 5 with my raging, Str 18, GWM, axe using frenzy barbarian 5.

You're getting three attacks a round back at you at +2 (with advantage) dealing 1d12+17 damage per hit.

Good luck making a concentration save against even one of those hits.

I have around 55 hit points. I should last about three rounds taking damage from the spell and your attacks.

Or an action surging, S and B BM fighter.

Bonus action to shove you prone. Followed by 4 attacks at +7 with advantage dealing 2d8+6 damage each.

Or a paladin smiting. Even a DW rogue at that level deals 5d6+4 DPR (conservatively) while halving the damage he takes back in return via uncanny dodge.

It's no more imprssive DPR than any of the above, and it's useable once per day at 5th level.

Doesn't look broken to me at all.

Problem is that the cleric sees you and opens up with Spirit Guardians. The next round he casts Sanctuary and every other round he spends his time moving and using the dodge action. Your level 5 barbarian now has to deal with save vs. WIS for 3d8 damage on the clerics round when he moves the aura overtop you, and save vs. 3d8 damage when you start your turn. Then you need to make a WIS save to even attack him in the first place, and if you succeed that one you're attacking AC 20 (plate plus shield) with dodge nullifying your advantage so you're trying to hit AC 20 with a mere +2. Your speed is halved so you're not ever going to be able to outrun this divine blender and all he needs to get this off is to keep Spirit guardians up for round 1.

Your Barb is now virtually helpless while the celestial guardians rip him apart with fireball level damage each round for the low low cost of 1 level 3 slot and one level 1 slot.

EDIT: while all this analysis may show that it isn't in fact overpowered I maintain that it is the single best spell in the game. In a dungeon a single cast can last you 2-3 encounters since it lasts up to 10 minutes.

[Shining Wrath]

Problem is that the cleric sees you and opens up with Spirit Guardians. The next round he casts Sanctuary and every other round he spends his time moving and using the dodge action. Your level 5 barbarian now has to deal with save vs. WIS for 3d8 damage on the clerics round when he moves the aura overtop you, and save vs. 3d8 damage when you start your turn. Then you need to make a WIS save to even attack him in the first place, and if you succeed that one you're attacking AC 20 (plate plus shield) with dodge nullifying your advantage so you're trying to hit AC 20 with a mere +2. Your speed is halved so you're not ever going to be able to outrun this divine blender and all he needs to get this off is to keep Spirit guardians up for round 1.

Your Barb is now virtually helpless while the celestial guardians rip him apart with fireball level damage each round for the low low cost of 1 level 3 slot and one level 1 slot.

EDIT: while all this analysis may show that it isn't in fact overpowered I maintain that it is the single best spell in the game. In a dungeon a single cast can last you 2-3 encounters since it lasts up to 10 minutes.

And I'm still where I was at the start; it's fine for a PC to use (DM can always scale add some HP to monsters), but it's a nightmare if the BBEG uses it and engages the party as they enter his lair and the SG start whuppin' on the squishy people.

[charcoalninja]

And I'm still where I was at the start; it's fine for a PC to use (DM can always scale add some HP to monsters), but it's a nightmare if the BBEG uses it and engages the party as they enter his lair and the SG start whuppin' on the squishy people.

Especially when higher level spellslots come into play. If a 6th level slot is used rather than making a Blade Barrier, you're looking at 6d8 damage twice a round for 12d8 additional damage per round Spirit Guardians is up and shreading people, that also halves the movement of everyone inside of it. It's a truely devistating spell, and while it may not be overpowered, it certainly isn't a good spell against Dragons as we've seen (the single HUGE damage high hit breaks concentration far too easily), against any encounter with more than a few foes it's a game changer.

[Xetheral]

Do we know for sure that Spirit Guardians can do damage on the caster's turn? Or does "enter the area" require voluntary movement by the target?

[Kryx]

Do we know for sure that Spirit Guardians can do damage on the caster's turn? Or does "enter the area" require voluntary movement by the target?

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/575817883109826560

When a spell's description uses "enter" in relation to an AoE, the entering has to be voluntary only if the text says so.

It's a very crazy ruling imo. Calebrus illustrates how broken Spiritual Guardians can be in that exchange.

I would make the same decision as Calebrus - Enter must be voluntary.

[Slipperychicken]

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/575817883109826560


It's a very crazy ruling imo. Calebrus illustrates how broken Spiritual Guardians can be in that exchange.

I would make the same decision as Calebrus - Enter must be voluntary.

Either way, the creature is being damaged before it can act, since the damage happens when it starts a turn in the AoE.

[Kryx]

Either way, the creature is being damaged before it can act, since the damage happens when it starts a turn in the AoE.
It's not the same. As Calebrus outlined the extreme is that he could run by "over 100 creatures". Whereas 15 foot radius is up to 34 creatures if every square around you is occupied.

In reality it is significantly fewer creatures as well.

[SharkForce]

Either way, the creature is being damaged before it can act, since the damage happens when it starts a turn in the AoE.

as i understand it, the goal is mostly to prevent you from just running past every enemy on the battlefield to damage each of them, and then end your turn in range to damage an enemy you care about twice. i don't think anyone objects to you standing in range and getting the damage on targets that are in range when their turn starts (though i could be wrong).

[Kryx]

as i understand it, the goal is mostly to prevent you from just running past every enemy on the battlefield to damage each of them, and then end your turn in range to damage an enemy you care about twice.
Per Crawford they only save to be damaged once:
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/575821400713232385

Keep in mind that the spell forces a creature to save only once per turn, and the cleric has to maintain concentration.

If you use that ruling the issue is the higher amount of targets.

[SharkForce]

Per Crawford they only save to be damaged once:
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/575821400713232385

once *per turn* he said.

ie once on your turn when you're running around, once on the enemy's turn when you stand next to them and their turn starts.

[thereaper]

snip

Your math seems to hold. Thank you. I must not have realized how much Action Surge adds. I happily concede that there is still a reason to play a Fighter, and you therefore have my gratitude, good sir.

Out of curiosity, does the result also hold for a Greatsword Fighter (which I presume would have less damage due to lack of Polearm Master)?

[Kryx]

once *per turn* he said.

ie once on your turn when you're running around, once on the enemy's turn when you stand next to them and their turn starts.
Right... I kinda ignored the word turn as he used the wording to imply it couldn't be twice, but I guess he meant it couldn't be twice in the same turn (no going in and out of range 5 times).

Either way it's still a bad ruling with poor implications imo. Entering should be voluntary.

[numerek]

The standard listed in the DMG is to average the damage potential of the first 3 rounds of combat, assume everything hits (And it not saved against) and that AOE attacks land on two targets.
The Cleric's expected average damage per round under the conditions given to us by the book is: 47.3 (I posted the math in an earlier post within this thread).
A Battlemaster Fighter's average damage per round under those same conditions is: (8.33 x 20 + 300 + 6d12)/3 = 168.56 (Using a greatsword, GWF, GWM, Action Surge, and Superiority Dice)
I think that after looking at those numbers, it is pretty safe to say that the Cleric isn't rendering anyone obsolete.
In fact, if you look at the graph here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit?usp=sharing), you can see that the Cleric's DPR that is assuming everything hits doesn't even compare to the actual expected damage of other classes (That takes into consideration miss chance for example).

I have made a copy of the graph (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Jy_EoOrlar_M6W_jsmJVJuXog1ULIT4SKINSiyHqaCQ/edit?usp=sharing) fixed a few issues I saw with classes getting abilities before they should and fighters not getting extra feats. Then I added a Cleric tab, a lot of the dpr is affected by the "average in aoe" multiplier but really most people consider the first round of combat the most important and being able to affect 2 people in the first round that melee range is achievable is pretty easy and 6+ I would think would be fairly common. My cleric build would be.

20 cleric (light or knowledge for potent spellcasting, probably light since this is a damage build)
starting
8 15 15 10 16 8
ending
8 16 16 10 20 8
variant human
feats resilient constitution & dexterity, war caster, shield master, +4 wisdom
medium armor + shield
I am afb so I don't know if war caster works with sacred flame but that only adds a little to dpr anyway.

The cleric could also be a polearm master with shillelagh nature cleric will probably update to add that in at some point, though it should work out to be about the same.

[charcoalninja]

Right... I kinda ignored the word turn as he used the wording to imply it couldn't be twice, but I guess he meant it couldn't be twice in the same turn (no going in and out of range 5 times).

Either way it's still a bad ruling with poor implications imo. Entering should be voluntary.

The spell summons celestial spirits that harry and attack anyone within 15 ' of the caster unless the caster designates them as unaffected when they are summoned. Do you honestly think it makes any lick of sense for my summoned death machines to ignore an enemy near me because they tripped and fell too close, or were pushed? Do they flit around saying "oh gosh ol' chap you should be more careful. Here I'll wait until you're ready to eat your face."

No, it's like a cloud of angry bees. If you enter it regardless they sting the crap out of you.

[Giant2005]

The spell summons celestial spirits that harry and attack anyone within 15 ' of the caster unless the caster designates them as unaffected when they are summoned. Do you honestly think it makes any lick of sense for my summoned death machines to ignore an enemy near me because they tripped and fell too close, or were pushed? Do they flit around saying "oh gosh ol' chap you should be more careful. Here I'll wait until you're ready to eat your face."

No, it's like a cloud of angry bees. If you enter it regardless they sting the crap out of you.

They aren't angry bees, they are Guardians their duty is to protect, not to attack. They shouldn't attack some random enemy that is casually standing around simply because the Cleric moved closer to that person. A Guardian isn't a weapon, it is a protector.
Ruling that the Guardians can attack people based on the actions of the Cleric is like ruling that it is perfectly okay to attach Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound to the end of a staff and use it like a mace.

If everyone is running around using that stupid ruling, I don't really know why someone would make a thread talking about Spirit Guardians being OP, when they should really be making threads about Moonbeam being OP.

[Kryx]

Moonbeam is indeed significantly less balanced if you use this (bad) ruling, but it's smaller - 5 foot radius (15x15 or 9 squares). Still decently sized and can get a lot of creatures.

Forced movement is questionable, but moving spells over people to have them activate is just flatly OP imo.

[Giant2005]

Moonbeam is indeed significantly less balanced if you use this (bad) ruling, but it's smaller - 5 foot radius (15x15 or 9 squares). Still decently sized and can get a lot of creatures.

Yes but the lesser AOE radius is easily countered by the massive speed in which you could move it, plus it doesn't require any feats to do so safely like Spirit Guardians does. The damage is better too.
Even without the AOE shenanigans, the spell would be immensely powerful as a single target by being able to hit two or more times per round. A level 2 Scorching Ray does 21 damage per round on average while a level 2 Moonbeam would do 22 damage per round on average - that AOE attack does more single target damage than the formerly best single target spell in the game and the difference increases significantly when cast with higher level spell slots considering Scorching Ray only increases 2D6 per level and Moonbeam increases 2D10 per level. Also, of course being able to repeat the spell constantly over the next minute is far superior to casting the spell and having it function only one turn.
This ruling turns Druids into the undisputed supreme nukers of the magical world.

[Kryx]

Yes but the lesser AOE radius is easily countered by the massive speed in which you could move it, plus it doesn't require any feats to do so safely like Spirit Guardians does. The damage is better too.
I agree 100%. The spell is significantly better abuse of the (bad) ruling.

[coredump]

ruling makes perfect sense to me. If a moonbeam is dangerous, it shouldn't matter how you get touched by it, it is still dangerous.

Just like a shaft of sunlight and a vampire.

[Ace Jackson]

ruling makes perfect sense to me. If a moonbeam is dangerous, it shouldn't matter how you get touched by it, it is still dangerous.

Just like a shaft of sunlight and a vampire.

Likewise the guardians flit around your character, you don't direct them to attack, you specifically need to designate who doesn't get attacked at the casting time, and can only specify against those you can see, despite the guardians presumably being incorporeal and thus being able to hit allies or enemies beyond a wall. All the fluff supports that ruling, and if your on a rescue mission it can burn you as much as help. Crunch, that we can discuss, but even there I need to question the wisdom of entry being exclusively voluntary, at the least in regards to moonbeam.

Moonbeam has a specified height of 40 feet, so by name, description of dim light, and dimension. I think the rai might well be for night only casting, if not outdoors, then at with at least 40 ft clearance, because otherwise why specify all that? Or would the druid make the day dark just to fire off the synthetic moonbeams? But supposing at least the 40 ft clearance, how many five foot choke points will you ever really find? That would be a really narrow bridge, or a really tight forest, perhaps, just perhaps, some dense city alleyways. That would make it really, really niche. EDIT: noticed that it's a specified 5ft radius, not 5ft wide column 40 ft high, was under the impression of one square, I see it's in error and cede this argument.

As for the spirit guardians, I could see it being more flexible in the proposed pure defensive stance, however, any enemies with int 8 or higher should be able to at least chuck rocks, which brings us back to concentration requirements, and the issue of usefulness, instead of becoming a living band-aid for the party, you'd basically become a stonewall, arguably thematic as cleric wards evil off and away from his companions, but playing a stone wall would likely be even less fun then the living band-aid.

And lets be honest, in order to really abuse the spell with that ruling, I.E. dashing through the enemies line while not losing concentration somehow, you need to have upwards of 30+ mooks attacking anyway, and if 30+ mooks all get to attack, then your in deep trouble. Even if they only use shortbows while closing distance, that's 30+ shots with chances to crit, up to 30+xd6 damage distributed to the full party will hurt. Yes, there are other options that can help, like a wizard, or light cleric, or bard's fireball, ranger's volley, etc. etc. but are you really going to begrudge anyone's plan in that situation? EDIT: Numbers seem light under the new understanding of scale, I would say inflate them, but at that point your GM is probably just pulling a cinematic anyway.

And if you'd argue that you don't need that many mooks to qualify as an abuse. Would it be any abuse to use it in any situation you'd conceivably use a fireball to clean up as well? It seems like the argument is principally over who should spend the 3d level spell slot.

It has also been noted that it has a ten minute duration, and thus could be used for more then one encounter, while possible, I must also point out that the spiritual guardians are visible, so if in a dungeon crawl, what exactly is stopping the monsters in the next chamber, behind the door the spirits don't care about anyway, from simply scurrying down a level, forestalling the confrontation and making the next encounter even more challenging?

Why wouldn't anyone anywhere try to evade, or at least kite the party in that circumstance? Keeping it up after an encounter only seems to make it more and more of a liability, whether you catch newly arriving allies in the crossfire, townsfolk otherwise hiding in their houses as would be sensible, or warn ambushes of your presence and capabilities.

[Kryx]

ruling makes perfect sense to me. If a moonbeam is dangerous, it shouldn't matter how you get touched by it, it is still dangerous.

Just like a shaft of sunlight and a vampire.
One could easily justify it that the beam is moving quick enough to not cause damage ala human feet on coals.

But I would rather use the balance factor.

[numerek]

I have made a copy of the graph (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Jy_EoOrlar_M6W_jsmJVJuXog1ULIT4SKINSiyHqaCQ/edit?usp=sharing) fixed a few issues I saw with classes getting abilities before they should and fighters not getting extra feats. Then I added a Cleric tab, a lot of the dpr is affected by the "average in aoe" multiplier but really most people consider the first round of combat the most important and being able to affect 2 people in the first round that melee range is achievable is pretty easy and 6+ I would think would be fairly common. My cleric build would be.

20 cleric (light or knowledge for potent spellcasting, probably light since this is a damage build)
starting
8 15 15 10 16 8
ending
8 16 16 10 20 8
variant human
feats resilient constitution & dexterity, war caster, shield master, +4 wisdom
medium armor + shield
I am afb so I don't know if war caster works with sacred flame but that only adds a little to dpr anyway.

The cleric could also be a polearm master with shillelagh nature cleric will probably update to add that in at some point, though it should work out to be about the same.

For those that don't click on the link (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Jy_EoOrlar_M6W_jsmJVJuXog1ULIT4SKINSiyHqaCQ/edit?usp=sharing) the spreadsheet shows that the cleric's only competition after reaching level 5 is barbarian and fighter while action surging, after level 10 the barbarian falls behind and never catches back up, and the cleric beats even an action surging fighter for levels 16-19. And those numbers are only assuming the cleric can effect 2 targets there will be many situations where it can effect more targets than that and even at one target the damage is at the top or near the top of everybody besides barbarian and a fighter that is action surging. The cleric is also being conservative with spiritual weapon mostly casting it with 2nd level spell slots and only near the end going up to 4th level.

[Kryx]

The Barbarian only loses on the Action surge round. Every other round the Barbarian is ahead of the fighter by an equal amount as action surge.

Barbarian is better assuming your combats last over 2 rounds. Fighter is better first round only.

[numerek]

The Barbarian only loses on the Action surge round. Every other round the Barbarian is ahead of the fighter by an equal amount as action surge.

Barbarian is better assuming your combats last over 2 rounds. Fighter is better first round only.

Yeah but the cleric can continue for 60 rounds and cast again if the fight is still going. The cleric can lose concentration but the barbarian for most of its career can also lose rage and has fewer rages per day than the cleric has 3rd+ level spells per day except I believe the barbarian capstone(still away from book).

[Giant2005]

And if you'd argue that you don't need that many mooks to qualify as an abuse. Would it be any abuse to use it in any situation you'd conceivably use a fireball to clean up as well? It seems like the argument is principally over who should spend the 3d level spell slot.

I would absolutely call that abuse.
Because of that stupid ruling, Spirit Guardians does the exact same damage as a Fireball in a 3rd level slot and does considerably more than the equivalent Fireball in higher level slots. A spell with a 10 minute duration should never compete in burst damage with an instantaneous effect spell. With that ruling being used, both Moonbeam (Which is even stronger than Spirit Guardians) and Spirit Guardians seriously shame Fireball and Arcane Casters in general. It essentially takes the niche of Arcane casters, removes it from them and gives it to the Divine Classes as just one more niche to add tot heir already niche-packed abilities.

[Luriant]

Today I see this power in use, and for me is very strong, i have the necesary requeriments for using it.
And i see that Caster are more powerful than warriors in 5e, i don't know how we have killed all the rooms in 10 min without using more and more short rests (

Nature Cleric with Half plate and Shield [AC 19] (Warcaster sentinel) Lv5 Con +4 Wis +4
And a druid in the group casting Resistance on me, if i not surrounded.
We clean 3 groups of lizardfolk (4D8 HP, 2*atks) of 6, 10 and 20 at once (the 2 last rooms merge in a group around the party.

Cast the spell, open the door and run to the center, use Action to Dodge. I only lost 20 HP, and Resistance Cantrip help me with the Concentration i failed.
Heal using 20 Goodberry [2 min eating] (druid using all the unused spells yesterday to make 90 berries), open the next door and kill ten more, and more berries, another 20 HP.
The last door the lizardfolk ignore me and attack my friends, but the druid and I using Healing word plus or friends using Dodge can resist enough the fight. (and sentinel for damage a little without compromise my dodge).

A great power if you have the requeriments.
*Enough enemies in the area
*Small area (rooms without escape)
*Great AC (Shield and Medium-Heavy armor a must) OR Sanctuary spell
*Warcaster or proficency in Con saves.

[bdyer]

Not to resurrect an old thread but what about the new paladin oath that allows Paladins to get spirit guardians at a later level?

[Bluemanarc]

I think Spirit Guardians most likely works a lot better with say 4 or 5 Zombies surrounding the Cleric as a meat shield in addition to the tank /s.

Also its better for a Life Cleric or MI Druid or Druid 1 level who can use Goodberry to good affect and provide a lot of bang for his buck in healing.

To be able to then leave spell lots free at L3 and higher to use Spirit Guardians all the time at a high level of affect.

And also maybe use a Variant Human to get Warcaster and Resilient by Level 4.

And run around in Plate and Shield on the front line, using Dodge or Sanctuary if need be, to maintain it for the entire battle.

[Beelzebubba]

ruling makes perfect sense to me. If a moonbeam is dangerous, it shouldn't matter how you get touched by it, it is still dangerous.

Just like a shaft of sunlight and a vampire.

You can move your hand quickly through the flame on the top of a stove without damaging it.

Holding it for six seconds, though...


This thing is not an orbital laser. It's closer to a somewhat big bonfire.

[Spacehamster]

Fighter cleric MC with CON save prof, war caster feat and defensive combat style for +1AC using a shield and full plate should be able to keep it up pretty reliably. :)

[EvilAnagram]

Is thread necromancy no longer frowned upon here?

[Kryx]

Is thread necromancy no longer frowned upon here?
I report the offending post, but these type of things have become more common lately. :(

[Hooligan]

You can move your hand quickly through the flame on the top of a stove without damaging it.

Holding it for six seconds, though...


This thing is not an orbital laser. It's closer to a somewhat big bonfire.

Glad you're such a real-life expert in magic as to set us bunglers straight.

[Lombra]

You could also simply stay in dodge and let your spirit guardians and weapon work the enemy, while you provide a nice wall. Unless the enemy grabs or overruns you. Well nothing is perfect.

[Bluemanarc]

Is thread necromancy no longer frowned upon here?

Hey guys what is "Thread Necromancy" I have never heard of this before, I am new to this specific website.

And frowned upon, not sure what that means either, or why it would be reported

Is it possible their is a rule, for the forum and website, that says you cannot mention a 3rd level spell Create Undead ?

Not being smart or silly, but just asking, is the owner of the website religious and doesn't like the mention of Undead or something.

[Bluemanarc]

I report the offending post, but these type of things have become more common lately. :(

Can you explain further as honestly, I am a little bemused and a lot confused

[Bluemanarc]

Likewise the guardians flit around your character, you don't direct them to attack, you specifically need to designate who doesn't get attacked at the casting time, and can only specify against those you can see, despite the guardians presumably being incorporeal and thus being able to hit allies or enemies beyond a wall. All the fluff supports that ruling, and if your on a rescue mission it can burn you as much as help.

.

You are so right, quite a dangerous spell to try and use for multiple or moving encounters, potentially killing entire villages or slaughtering townsfolk, or large numbers of friendly NPC's.

Especially when I am to be a Life Cleric as well.

On a positive note: it does help to (ooouch very scared to mention this until I found out why its an issue)...
But does help with your Create Undead spell if you want to add a Zombie or two to your group.

[MeeposFire]

Hey guys what is "Thread Necromancy" I have never heard of this before, I am new to this specific website.

And frowned upon, not sure what that means either, or why it would be reported

Is it possible their is a rule, for the forum and website, that says you cannot mention a 3rd level spell Create Undead ?

Not being smart or silly, but just asking, is the owner of the website religious and doesn't like the mention of Undead or something.

Thread necromancy is when you post in a thread that has been inactive for a long time. Essentially you are bringing the thread back to life hence necromancy.

I forget how long the thread needs to be dead but it is in the rules.

[Bluemanarc]

Thread necromancy is when you post in a thread that has been inactive for a long time. Essentially you are bringing the thread back to life hence necromancy.

I forget how long the thread needs to be dead but it is in the rules.

Thanks for that, I just PM a moderator, as I didn't know it was so old, about 5 years, or that you shouldn't do that, and I don't really know how to fix my boo boo....

Thought is was the content "Create Undead" and the necromancy involved that people didn't like, that is good, as I was thinking like "Have I entered the twilight zone".

Why don't they just put something in the website design that stops you being able to post on old threads, is that hard to do ?

[Dudu]

By my math, a level 14 Wis 18 Str 16 Cleric using a Greatsword, Spiritual Weapon, and Spirit Guardians will inflict 41 dpr if he lands everything (2d6+3+2d8+1d8+4+3d8). And he will have enough spell slots to do it in 6 separate battles. And this ignores the fact that using higher level spell slots means Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon will do even more damage.

By comparison, a Greatsword-wielding Str 20 Fighter will be doing 39 dpr if he lands everything (3*(2d6+1+4)).

The more I look at it, the harder it is for me to see how this could be balanced. The only real drawbacks are the concentration checks (which the Cleric can easily make with the right feats) and the fact that Spirit Guardians requires giving up an action on the turn you cast it, which is more than made up for in the face of the extra damage from using it in higher spell slots. Even the Fighter's Action Surge can't make up for that.
Ok, so here is my experience.

I'm currently playing as a Death Cleric, lvl 11. In my party there's also a BM Fighter, lvl 11.

Ya, no way I can outdamage that fighter in 75% of the cases. In the other 25%, we are fighting a horde, in which case my cleric wins.

Here are some things you are ignoring.

1. Your calculations are assuming "every attack hits", when the Fighter already has +2 to hit. That accounts for a lot.

2. Also, BM Fighters might try some maneuver, which adds a lot of damage. Champions can crit more often, again, more damage.

3. Is the fighter purposedly ignoring his most infamous feature, Action Surge? Because again, more damage.

4. The fighter, in a game that allows feat, is attacking with a G Sword without Great Weapon Mastery? Add 10 damage to each hit, bro.

5. Spirit Guardians plus Spiritual Weapon plus Attacking with a G Sword might work for theorycrafting. In reality, if you do that you're probably missing some hits and getting a lot of hit in response. Even if you invested in Resilient Con and Warcaster, you might lose concentration because: a) there was simply too much hit and you got double 1. b) much more likely, you lost concentration because you lost consciousness.
In practice, it's more productive to use your action to dodge during most rounds.

So, to sum it up, you conclude on basis of a poorly simulated scenario. In fact, fighter is so strong a cleric might end up doing more damage with a bless than with spirit guardians. Don't get me wrong, I love spirit guardians, LOVE it, but it isn't broken, just very strong.

edit: Damn, the thread is old. Who is ressurecting those stuff? No wonder the content seemed so naive.

[Theodoxus]

Thanks for that, I just PM a moderator, as I didn't know it was so old, about 5 years, or that you shouldn't do that, and I don't really know how to fix my boo boo....

Thought is was the content "Create Undead" and the necromancy involved that people didn't like, that is good, as I was thinking like "Have I entered the twilight zone".

Why don't they just put something in the website design that stops you being able to post on old threads, is that hard to do ?

It's in the Terms of service, though hardly anyone actually reads it.

I think the reason the mods don't lock old threads automatically is some topics don't have a 'statute of limitations'. Build guides, I know are exempt. Sometimes (the cleric one in particular here) a thread will lay dormant for months, and then someone stumbles across it, requests build ideas, resurrecting the thread for a bit, until the new question is answered and the thread sinks back down.

I haven't seen the mods lock threadamancy in a while though - maybe there's less concern when they migrated to a new server? Not sure - I'm not IT, not even remotely... just a glorified user of tech...

[Bluemanarc]

5. Spirit Guardians plus Spiritual Weapon plus Attacking with a G Sword might work for theorycrafting. In reality, if you do that you're probably missing some hits and getting a lot of hit in response. Even if you invested in Resilient Con and Warcaster, you might lose concentration because: a) there was simply too much hit and you got double 1. b) much more likely, you lost concentration because you lost consciousness.
In practice, it's more productive to use your action to dodge during most rounds.


edit: Damn, the thread is old. Who is ressurecting those stuff? No wonder the content seemed so naive.

I am, Macros the Black, Variant Human Pirate Life Cleric.
We are just starting 5e campaign, after doing 4e since it came out, since we grew up 35 years ago on 2E we realise now that 5e is just new rules for 2e really.

So the Pirate is going to use Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardian combo mostly, as he is Life Cleric with Druid dip one level for "Life Berries".
Enabling strong out of encounter healing meaning he can use these more attacking spells.

In your experience you think whacking away on the front line (close to Pally with +3 for Saves) and using Thorn Whip to bring enemies into reach of Fighter, and into Spirit Guardians AOE is good idea, until heat comes on and then Dodge to stay alive.

(L1 Warcaster and L5 Resilient Con)

(DM blessing to keep Plate and Shield despite one level in Druid)

Note: 16 Con and Con Prof. and Pally +3 should mean Auto Saves except on high damage attacks, in your experience how often to those high damage attacks ruin Concentration.

[djreynolds]

Clerics normally have dumped dex, so a well placed AoE usually drops most things.

So get absorb elements, even from a dip it is worth it.

Also if you do slack off wisdom for better concentration with war caster and say resilient con, some of the enemies will pass that save DC and only take half damage from spirit guardians.

So there is some wiggle room there for a DM to beat out spirit guardians.

Its still an awesome spell, one that I used a lot in CoS.

I prefer to wade into combat and then cast spirit guardians. If planned out well, you and your party can feast on AoO from fleeing enemies or pummel the fools who haven't run off.

I really like the combo of war caster, booming blade, and spirit guardians. It is really effective.

[Gignere]

Clerics normally have dumped dex, so a well placed AoE usually drops most things.

So get absorb elements, even from a dip it is worth it.

Also if you do slack off wisdom for better concentration with war caster and say resilient con, some of the enemies will pass that save DC and only take half damage from spirit guardians.

So there is some wiggle room there for a DM to beat out spirit guardians.

Its still an awesome spell, one that I used a lot in CoS.

I prefer to wade into combat and then cast spirit guardians. If planned out well, you and your party can feast on AoO from fleeing enemies or pummel the fools who haven't run off.

I really like the combo of war caster, booming blade, and spirit guardians. It is really effective.

How did you get booming blade?

[djreynolds]

How did you get booming blade?

Grabbing magic initiate is the easiest way. Its a sweet combo.

But an Arcana cleric can do it also, and at 8th level add his/her wisdom to it.

[Bluemanarc]

Clerics normally have dumped dex, so a well placed AoE usually drops most things.

So get absorb elements, even from a dip it is worth it.

Also if you do slack off wisdom for better concentration with war caster and say resilient con, some of the enemies will pass that save DC and only take half damage from spirit guardians.

So there is some wiggle room there for a DM to beat out spirit guardians.

Its still an awesome spell, one that I used a lot in CoS.

I prefer to wade into combat and then cast spirit guardians. If planned out well, you and your party can feast on AoO from fleeing enemies or pummel the fools who haven't run off.

I really like the combo of war caster, booming blade, and spirit guardians. It is really effective.

We are just using core rules so don't have Booming Blade option unfortunately.

What is your point at start re Cleric dumping Dex and AOE dropping stuff, not quite sure what you mean.

"Obsorb Elements" - what is the benefit of using that, I read it a couple of times but it didn't seem ? that great to me.

Yep the cost of Warcaster L1 and Resilient L5 is that Wisdom does not get to 18 until L9 - not to bad ??
And not to 20 until L14.

Hard to say if its more affective to take Wisdom earlier, and if so, which of the other 2 feats would be best to delay taking.

But at least by going Variant Human that feat at L1 does make it easier all round.

[90sMusic]

Hrm... 3d8 per round and needs concentration and to be within 15 feet of any enemy I want to affect...
Or 8d6 in a 20 foot RADIUS, at a distance of 150 feet...

Yeah, i'll take fireball. Every day of the week.

To even hit multiple targets, the cleric would have to position themselves in the center of a group of enemies, surrounding themselves. Even if concentration weren't a factor, how many enemies are going to let a healing magic user just stand in the middle of a group of them and not swarm it? They'd have to be pretty stupid not to.

Fireball does more damage and is much safer to use.

I see zero problem with this spell. Meanwhile, Heat Metal does 2d8 damage per round that is unavoidable and your save just determines whether or not you drop your weapon on the ground. And if it can't drop it, it has disadvantage on attacks.

Magic is strong yo. Not sure why you're singling out random spells but a lot of them are powerful.

[djreynolds]

We are just using core rules so don't have Booming Blade option unfortunately.

What is your point at start re Cleric dumping Dex and AOE dropping stuff, not quite sure what you mean.

"Obsorb Elements" - what is the benefit of using that, I read it a couple of times but it didn't seem ? that great to me.

Yep the cost of Warcaster L1 and Resilient L5 is that Wisdom does not get to 18 until L9 - not to bad ??
And not to 20 until L14.

Hard to say if its more affective to take Wisdom earlier, and if so, which of the other 2 feats would be best to delay taking.

But at least by going Variant Human that feat at L1 does make it easier all round.

If a DM is looking for a way to break the concentration of a cleric, normally dex saves could be a weakness for clerics and most will fail their saves or at the least take half damage. Most AoE spells are usually of the elemental damage type

Absorb elements is an awesome reaction spell, like the shield spell. Its from the EEPC.

The spell captures some of the incoming energy, lessening its effect on you and storing it for your next melee attack. You have resistance to the triggering damage type until the start of your next turn


So the minute the DM drops a fireball on you, you can use your reaction to half this damage. Not bad, the extra melee damage is nice also. So basically you give up a 1st level spell, and can half the damage of any sized fireball until your next turn

Now it is a wizard, druid, or ranger spell... so a 1 level dip of druid and you can grab this.

So if possible try to get this spell.

Protection from energy is good, but its concentration. But good for 1 hour, but only versus 1 type of energy. So no spirit guardians or bless.

[Bluemanarc]

Nice work, what you say makes perfect sense, brilliant in fact. Just what I was looking for and I am dipping 1 into Druid.
But we are just using core books to reduce power gaming a tad. Shame.

[Bluemanarc]

I am, Macros the Black, Variant Human Pirate Life Cleric.
We are just starting 5e campaign, after doing 4e since it came out, since we grew up 35 years ago on 2E we realise now that 5e is just new rules for 2e really.

So the Pirate is going to use Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardian combo mostly, as he is Life Cleric with Druid dip one level for "Life Berries".
Enabling strong out of encounter healing meaning he can use these more attacking spells.

In your experience you think whacking away on the front line (close to Pally with +3 for Saves) and using Thorn Whip to bring enemies into reach of Fighter, and into Spirit Guardians AOE is good idea, until heat comes on and then Dodge to stay alive.

(L1 Warcaster and L5 Resilient Con)

(DM blessing to keep Plate and Shield despite one level in Druid)

Note: 16 Con and Con Prof. and Pally +3 should mean Auto Saves except on high damage attacks, in your experience how often to those high damage attacks ruin Concentration.

Okay so SW and SG and Dodge, what magic items would compliment this "Walking Fireball" combo :) that someone on the Cleric guide called it, nice term :)
Sounds cool aye, a walking fireball that keeps burning, very cool.

Note: Since Macros the Black uses Necromancy spells to bring back the dead to fight for him, he is allowed to necro threads as well, I read it in the CB.

[mephnick]

...did you just necro the same thread twice in 2 years?

[ATHATH]

...did you just necro the same thread twice in 2 years?
And he acknowledged that he was committing thread necromancy too. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1j58AlNUbEs)

By the way, can I sig that?

[mephnick]

Hah, sure.

[ATHATH]

Hah, sure.
Thanks.

Bluemanarc, what are you talking about with "Marcos the Black" and "the CB"?

[Bluemanarc]

Thanks.

Bluemanarc, what are you talking about with "Marcos the Black" and "the CB"?

Sorry I just assumed everyone had heard of my pirate cleric PC "Macros the Black", but obviously you are the one exception :)

He's really famous you know.

[MaxWilson]

Sorry I just assumed everyone had heard of my pirate cleric PC "Macros the Black", but obviously you are the one exception :)

He's really famous you know.

Waldorf already killed him. Please mail in your character sheet for Waldorf's trophy room. kthxbye.

[krugaan]

Waldorf already killed him. Please mail in your character sheet for Waldorf's trophy room. kthxbye.

And here I was thinking that this was going to be an epic slow burn "STRONGEST CHARACTER SORCEROR KING CAN U DEFIET" thing.

[Citan]

By my math, a level 14 Wis 18 Str 16 Cleric using a Greatsword, Spiritual Weapon, and Spirit Guardians will inflict 41 dpr if he lands everything (2d6+3+2d8+1d8+4+3d8). And he will have enough spell slots to do it in 6 separate battles. And this ignores the fact that using higher level spell slots means Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon will do even more damage.

By comparison, a Greatsword-wielding Str 20 Fighter will be doing 39 dpr if he lands everything (3*(2d6+1+4)).

The more I look at it, the harder it is for me to see how this could be balanced. The only real drawbacks are the concentration checks (which the Cleric can easily make with the right feats) and the fact that Spirit Guardians requires giving up an action on the turn you cast it, which is more than made up for in the face of the extra damage from using it in higher spell slots. Even the Fighter's Action Surge can't make up for that.
Nope, it's really balanced. If you have a different feeling, maybe your DM is a bit off in using all cards he's dealt with.

"Easily make with the right feats" means it's only really reliable at level 4 at best (Human Variant), 5 if you push the weakness on WIS instead (by starting Sorcerer/Fighter), or 8 for most.
At level 5, other casters can trivialize fights in different ways: Slow, Hypnotic Pattern or even a simple Fear, although more swingy to land in the first place, get a greater benefit in return.

And it's only at level 8 that you really have a good concentration save. And it's still at most (if you optimize for it) an auto-save for the exact DC 10,
but at this time monsters start to hit around 30 HP regularly.

So, yeah, as long as a party faces "new enemies" it will keep very powerful. Once enemy knows how to deal with threat (or similar ones), it will get old quickly.

- Archers focus firing to break your concentration.
- Strong melee "sacrificing" themselves to pin you down, or casters restraining your movement.
- Creatures avoiding you in the first place to instead resort to ranged attacks (which is admitedly a win for you, but a weak one in comparison).

It doesn't mean it's useless now. Just that you'll need some support and coordination from allies to keep it relevant.
And that analysis could be copied/pasted to many, many spells and features of 5e. :=)

[Bluemanarc]

Nope, it's really balanced. If you have a different feeling, maybe your DM is a bit off in using all cards he's dealt with.

"Easily make with the right feats" means it's only really reliable at level 4 at best (Human Variant), 5 if you push the weakness on WIS instead (by starting Sorcerer/Fighter), or 8 for most.
At level 5, other casters can trivialize fights in different ways: Slow, Hypnotic Pattern or even a simple Fear, although more swingy to land in the first place, get a greater benefit in return.

And it's only at level 8 that you really have a good concentration save. And it's still at most (if you optimize for it) an auto-save for the exact DC 10,
but at this time monsters start to hit around 30 HP regularly.

So, yeah, as long as a party faces "new enemies" it will keep very powerful. Once enemy knows how to deal with threat (or similar ones), it will get old quickly.

- Archers focus firing to break your concentration.
- Strong melee "sacrificing" themselves to pin you down, or casters restraining your movement.
- Creatures avoiding you in the first place to instead resort to ranged attacks (which is admitedly a win for you, but a weak one in comparison).

It doesn't mean it's useless now. Just that you'll need some support and coordination from allies to keep it relevant.
And that analysis could be copied/pasted to many, many spells and features of 5e. :=)

Easily solved.
1. Stand next to pally from L4 for +3 Saves
2. Use Sanctuary and Dodge

I think its a great and unusually powered attack for a Cleric to have and yes will require a lot of hard work on the enemies part.
When they should be dealing with the danger men in the party :)

Takes a Life Cleric Heal Bot into a power player on the battle field.

[Citan]

Easily solved.
1. Stand next to pally from L4 for +3 Saves
2. Use Sanctuary and Dodge

I think its a great and unusually powered attack for a Cleric to have and yes will require a lot of hard work on the enemies part.
When they should be dealing with the danger men in the party :)

Takes a Life Cleric Heal Bot into a power player on the battle field.
Yeah, sure, so what?

In games mechanics, what you say is translated as "Unusually powered when in specific parties" (which could be said of 90% of all spells and abilities), because, info of the day for you, not every party in the world includes a level 6+ Paladin.
"Unusually powered when you spend additional resources and actions to sustain it", which is actually plain untrue because it means you are not doing anything contributing to the fight with your action.

So, what you end with is "Spirit Guardians is unusually powerful when you build around it". Duh, congrats on rushing into an open door. XD

(Also, although it's probably a rare occurence to get pitted against "smart" casters with PC-like abilities, all you say won't help much against an Entangle / Phantasmal Force / Banishment or the like... :))

[Bluemanarc]

Yeah, sure, so what?

In games mechanics, what you say is translated as "Unusually powered when in specific parties" (which could be said of 90% of all spells and abilities), because, info of the day for you, not every party in the world includes a level 6+ Paladin.
"Unusually powered when you spend additional resources and actions to sustain it", which is actually plain untrue because it means you are not doing anything contributing to the fight with your action.

So, what you end with is "Spirit Guardians is unusually powerful when you build around it". Duh, congrats on rushing into an open door. XD

(Also, although it's probably a rare occurence to get pitted against "smart" casters with PC-like abilities, all you say won't help much against an Entangle / Phantasmal Force / Banishment or the like... :))

I think you must still be on the floor dazed looking around after the last wall you walked into :redface:

But lets bow to your self agreed masterful brilliance, what do you think can be added to the Spiritual Guardians mix, through party and other combo's to make it more powerful.

[Bluemanarc]

Waldorf already killed him. Please mail in your character sheet for Waldorf's trophy room. kthxbye.

Hey you would have to get past the spirit guardians first.

And secondly Macros the Black, Pirate Cleric..........
Would never ever submit to being killed by anybody with such a ridiculous and hopeless name as Waldorf ???

Are you kidding me, really ?

[Citan]

I think you must still be on the floor dazed looking around after the last wall you walked into :redface:

But lets bow to your self agreed masterful brilliance, what do you think can be added to the Spiritual Guardians mix, through party and other combo's to make it more powerful.
I'll ignore the useless sarcasm and let you deal with your own ego.
To answer the question...

Simple (and very much probably non-exhaustive list: key ideas: reducing threat / damage on Cleric while reducing enemy chance to avoid/leave area).

Low level
- Another Cleric (or any character knowing those spells, actually a gish martial may be preferable) casting Warding Bond: because half damage means Cleric will start worrying about concentration only with 40+ single hits.
- A Druid buffing Cleric's speed by 10 feet when needed (catch up speedy monsters), or casting a Healing Spirit that will "follow" the Cleric wherever he moves (especially good since it's not a auto-heal, and one creature only, so no risk of healing enemies). Coul also cast carefully aimed Earth Tremor to put groups of enemies prone.
- Anyone having forced movement spells herding monsters inside Cleric (which is a lot of people: Barbarian/Rogue/Monk with Grapple, Bard's Dissonant Whispers / Compulsion, IIRC some Battlemaster's Manoeuvers, obviously Warlock with Repelling Hadar's Eldricht Blast and Druid's Thorns Whip, etc).

Mid-level
- A Lore Bard (10+) casting Circle of Power to help Cleric (everyone, really ;)) avoid damage and more importantly nasty spells.
- A Druid casting a Plant Growth to completely lock down enemies around Cleric in a large scale (difficult terrain stacking with 4 speed for 1 feet move). Spells like Spike Growth could also be useful in a "stand-off" situation where Cleric moves little: either to up damage on enemies inside area (stacked) or to increase the cost of fleeing (cast "in front" of Cleric to extend the total area of difficult terrain).
- Any caster using Wall of Flame / Stone / Wind or the like to similarly cut off the way (with added benefit of strongly reducing direct threat on Cleric, especially from casters/archers, since most of these block the view).
- A PalaSorc with Aura of Protection casting Careful (pre-nerf) Stinking Cloud, or risking a plain Stinking Cloud if both him and Cleric were built high-CON+prof.

Etc.
Honestly all of these are basic synergy tricks that could be said as useful for many other spells/features, as soon as you plan a strategy relying on a "one-man FTW" idea.

[krugaan]

I'll ignore the useless sarcasm and let you deal with your own ego.
To answer the question...

Simple (and very much probably non-exhaustive list: key ideas: reducing threat / damage on Cleric while reducing enemy chance to avoid/leave area).

Low level
- Another Cleric (or any character knowing those spells, actually a gish martial may be preferable) casting Warding Bond: because half damage means Cleric will start worrying about concentration only with 40+ single hits.
- A Druid buffing Cleric's speed by 10 feet when needed (catch up speedy monsters), or casting a Healing Spirit that will "follow" the Cleric wherever he moves (especially good since it's not a auto-heal, and one creature only, so no risk of healing enemies). Coul also cast carefully aimed Earth Tremor to put groups of enemies prone.
- Anyone having forced movement spells herding monsters inside Cleric (which is a lot of people: Barbarian/Rogue/Monk with Grapple, Bard's Dissonant Whispers / Compulsion, IIRC some Battlemaster's Manoeuvers, obviously Warlock with Repelling Hadar's Eldricht Blast and Druid's Thorns Whip, etc).

Mid-level
- A Lore Bard (10+) casting Circle of Power to help Cleric (everyone, really ;)) avoid damage and more importantly nasty spells.
- A Druid casting a Plant Growth to completely lock down enemies around Cleric in a large scale (difficult terrain stacking with 4 speed for 1 feet move). Spells like Spike Growth could also be useful in a "stand-off" situation where Cleric moves little: either to up damage on enemies inside area (stacked) or to increase the cost of fleeing (cast "in front" of Cleric to extend the total area of difficult terrain).
- Any caster using Wall of Flame / Stone / Wind or the like to similarly cut off the way (with added benefit of strongly reducing direct threat on Cleric, especially from casters/archers, since most of these block the view).
- A PalaSorc with Aura of Protection casting Careful (pre-nerf) Stinking Cloud, or risking a plain Stinking Cloud if both him and Cleric were built high-CON+prof.

Etc.
Honestly all of these are basic synergy tricks that could be said as useful for many other spells/features, as soon as you plan a strategy relying on a "one-man FTW" idea.

Can you defeat

THE MOST POWERFUL CHARACTER

THE HERALD OF DOOM

yadda yadda upcast spirit guardians yadda yadda stolen internet art yadda yadda

[Talionis]

There are just some spells in 5E that are really class features. Find Steed. Hex. Hunter's Mark. Similacrum. These spells are generally on one list and even if they are fueled by spellslots, they tend to be class features. This is put at level 5 for Clerics. Its more or less balanced.

[Ignimortis]

There are just some spells in 4E that are really class features. Find Steed. Hex. Hunter's Mark. Similacrum. These spells are generally on one list and even if they are fueled by spellslots, they tend to be class featurees. This is put at level 5 for Clerics. Its more or less balanced.

I don't think Simulacrum should be anyone's class feature unless you're making a T0.5 game :O

On others, I agree.

[ZenBear]

I have successfully solo’d an encounter designed for my 6-man party by running in with my Hill Dwarf Cleric with War Caster, popping Spirit Guardians and taking the Dodge action. It was a confined space, so they couldn’t escape its range and the party held the door closed behind me.

[Talionis]

I don't think Simulacrum should be anyone's class feature unless you're making a T0.5 game :O

On others, I agree.

As Wizards are the only character that have access to Simulacrum is why I say its a class feature. Most tables I have been at limit Simulacrum in some way as to not create loops. I am not judging whether the spell is properly balanced or whether they should have limited it otherwise.

[JackPhoenix]

As Wizards are the only character that have access to Simulacrum is why I say its a class feature. Most tables I have been at limit Simulacrum in some way as to not create loops. I am not judging whether the spell is properly balanced or whether they should have limited it otherwise.

And bards, and sorcerers...

[MaxWilson]

Easily solved.
1. Stand next to pally from L4 for +3 Saves
2. Use Sanctuary and Dodge

Unless you're talking about a Level 6 paladin, you won't be getting any save bonuses from standing next to the paladin at level 4.


Hey you would have to get past the spirit guardians first.

And secondly Macros the Black, Pirate Cleric..........
Would never ever submit to being killed by anybody with such a ridiculous and hopeless name as Waldorf ???

Are you kidding me, really ?

Yeah, I'm kidding around. Here's the context: back in the relatively-early days of AD&D, a guy wrote a letter to the editors of Dragon magazine claiming to have destroyed the entire planet of Greyhawk with nuclear bombs in his campaign, and had the cheek to suggest that this was binding on everyone else too and that TSR should stop making Greyhawk books and that everyone else's characters on Greyhawk were all dead now. It became something of a meme. See http://greyhawkery.blogspot.com/2015/09/greyhawk-comic-rewind-waldorf.html for more details.


I have successfully solo’d an encounter designed for my 6-man party by running in with my Hill Dwarf Cleric with War Caster, popping Spirit Guardians and taking the Dodge action. It was a confined space, so they couldn’t escape its range and the party held the door closed behind me.

Be careful--if they had grappled you, that would have cancelled Dodge and perhaps resulted in a quick death for you. (Dodge ceases to give benefits if your speed drops to zero, or if you can't see the enemy you're trying to dodge.)

[Bluemanarc]

Nice work Max Wilson.

Okay I have come up with a tactic for Spirit Guardians.
And its basically as protection for your min army of Skeleton Archers.

Anyone wants to deal to you or your archers then they are gonna have to step into the walking talking fireball.

On that, is their a link to optimizing the Cleric version of Animate Dead.
Can you for example, give them better armour, or Crossbows instead of Short Bows.

I think I may need a bag of holding for portability of said army.
When its time to head back to town, give the order.........

"Kill each other till one is left, then pack up the bones and gear, stack them in this bag, then jump in"

"Oh, make me my usual martini before hand, shaken and stirred"

[Bluemanarc]

What do you think is better Stat to increase from L8.

So you are a Variant Human with Warcaster and Resilent Con feats and get your first stat boost at Level 8.

Do you +2 Wisdom or +2 Con.
Taking into account you are Life Cleric with Good AC and like to spam Bless or Spirit Guardians (and intend to up cast it with L4 and L5 slot).

You don't mind the use of Sanctuary or Dodge to avoid attacks, and are behind a Half Orc Fighter, a Half Orc Fighter / Rogue, and next to a Druid who spends a lot of time in animal form.

To max effectiveness of Spirit Guardians.
Do we want the +1 to ST's from Res Con and a few more HP's.
Or do we want the +1 to the DC of Spirit Guardians (don't care so much about the minimal increase to healing, don't use a lot of attacks spells that require enemy saving throws).

Will a higher DC on Spirit Guardians, really make a difference in damage out put ?

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: The spirits' eternal rest is unperturbed by necromancy.