My pitch for a alternative Vampire game [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Ravian

2015-06-01, 11:54 AM

I'm mainly familiar with pre-Sabbat Lasombra (most of my masquerade reading comes from Dark Ages) but from what I can tell the Lasombra clan is primarily about power and control. They do have a somewhat social darwinist aspect to them (Their elders actually allowed diablerie if the vampire can prove the necessity of it, an attitude that no doubt led to their part in the Sabbat.) However they're certainly not just a bunch of nazis. The primary thing most Lasombra look for in a childe is someone with the ability to take power where they can get it, likely with a willingness to step on a few people to get there. (They're actually some of the few Sabbat that don't like to make shovel-heads, since they like to make sure that their childe is worthy of that power.)

While some neo-nazis might have the right attitude a Lasombra might want, they certainly don't get any preference. More likely if there was actually a fairly powerful neo-nazi gang in a city, and the prospective childe had demonstrated a fair bit of political cunning and ruthlessness in that group that might make them an even better choice. On the other hand, a thoroughly corrupt businessman or minor politician that had stepped on virtually everyone getting where he was and holding a fair bit of power in the city would also be a good candidate (possibly even better considering that businessmen and politicians generally wield more power and influence than gang leaders of such a particularly disruputable political philosophy.)

To put it simply, Lasombras may have a social darwinist philosophy, but this doesn't necessarily mean they're Nazis. To be fair, most non-neonate vampires (aside from Brujah) don't really get that involved in human philosophies aside from what they can do with them as a power based. I'm sure there were some Lasombra that came from the Nazis, maybe even a few younger ones that got involved with them after their embrace, but more than likely most of the older clan members would consider it a needless distraction from vampire affairs, and possibly dangerous for the conflicts it might cause within the clan. (For example, a powerful and ruthless Jewish businessman could end up the clan mate of the neo-nazi. The older Lasombras probably wouldn't expect them to work together perfectly, but they'd at least expect them to put aside their human differences and start acting like proper vampires.)

I know that during the Dark Ages a similar conflict happened with quite a few young Christian and Muslim Lasombra fought each other in the Reconquista. For the most part the elders just sighed over the flights of fancy of neonates and let the war play out until they were sure of a winner. Lasombra like winning above all else, let the Brujah worry themselves about what's just or right.

Bloodtomb

2015-06-01, 02:25 PM

JeenLeen

2015-06-01, 03:50 PM

Ravian

2015-06-01, 08:23 PM

Well the next question is, is there any existence of Lasombra that don't subscribe to Social Darwinism or not even interested in power & control at all? Well thing is, the only reason I would pick Lasombra is because of their discipline and plus their clan weakness gives them a peace of mind that they won't be caught by security cameras or anything but everything else I don't want the whole Social Darwinism/Power & Control package shoe horned in. Basically I wonder if it's possible to have a Lasombra (or Tzimisce) Camarilla, Anarch or even Autarkis character?

Yes and No. There are some Lasombra Antribu, (those that don't align with the Sabbat) which spread across either Independent or Camarilla. (though few of the Camarilla truly trust them, and the Sabbat clan outright denies their existence)

That said even Antribu tend to be self-serving. This is for the simple fact that Lasombra are extremely careful about who they embrace. One of the big reasons why a Lasombra might reject the Sabbat is because they find the concept of mass embraces truly distasteful. Meanwhile the vast majority of Lasombra are noted to spend months stalking a prospective childe to ensure that they meet their extensive criteria. Lasombra don't make vampires on a whim as a rule, and any childe they make is sure to be an important political piece in their schemes. It's not that they don't see the use of them, but they are all too aware that any individual they involve in their schemes has the possibility to betray them, and so they generally prefer something more disposable than a childe for most of their schemes. (Some Lasombra don't even like to make ghouls or even blood bound individuals. They may be useful tools of control, but they have enough potential to backfire that they're more of a last resort to more conventional scheming than a favorite tool. A gaggle of mortals with no idea who they're serving and why is easy to deny and replace, and can't generally be turned against them.)

The cautiousness involved in embracing vampires is also related to the social darwinism aspect. Remember that this is a clan that allowed diablerie of elders perceived as weak by neonates even before their entry into the Sabbat. Any childe you make is a potential rival, so you only make one for a damn good reason.

That said, not everyone is infalliable. There's nothing that says a Lasombra made a mistake and didn't do enough research into a person before their embrace.

One thing you might want to look at however is a Lasombra bloodline known as the Kiasyd. Kiasyd supposedly arose from an accident involving the fae. They possess Obtenebration and a special one of their own related to uncovering knowledge and secrets.

The big thing however is their nature and attitude is almost entirely unlike that of their parent clan, to the point where many Lasombra scarcely acknowledge them. They prefer the curious and knowledgeable for their embraces, and generally have a reputation as scholars of mysterious and arcane lore. In addition, they're not even really Sabbat. Most vampires classify them as such, but that's largely only because the Lasombra are. Kiasyd don't really care about the Sabbat or Vampire politics, they really only care about secrets and mysteries. I don't know if they share the weakness of the Lasombra though (i'm not really knowledgeable if bloodlines share their parent clan's weaknesses or not) they do have a weakness to cold iron though, since they're somewhat related to the fae in a similar way Tremere might be considered related to mages or gangrel to werewolves (something evident in their unnaturally tall bodies, strangely pale and occasionally bluish coloration and solid black eyes)

Kiasyd are an odd bunch to be sure, but they certainly act as a clear alternate to the social darwinist mainline Lasombra, and they have plenty of possibility for ones unaffiliated with the Sabbat. If you're okay with playing a rather weird and above all else curious character with Lasombra powers, they're a great possibility.

Bloodtomb

2015-06-01, 09:45 PM

Yes and No. There are some Lasombra Antribu, (those that don't align with the Sabbat) which spread across either Independent or Camarilla. (though few of the Camarilla truly trust them, and the Sabbat clan outright denies their existence)

That said even Antribu tend to be self-serving. This is for the simple fact that Lasombra are extremely careful about who they embrace. One of the big reasons why a Lasombra might reject the Sabbat is because they find the concept of mass embraces truly distasteful. Meanwhile the vast majority of Lasombra are noted to spend months stalking a prospective childe to ensure that they meet their extensive criteria. Lasombra don't make vampires on a whim as a rule, and any childe they make is sure to be an important political piece in their schemes. It's not that they don't see the use of them, but they are all too aware that any individual they involve in their schemes has the possibility to betray them, and so they generally prefer something more disposable than a childe for most of their schemes. (Some Lasombra don't even like to make ghouls or even blood bound individuals. They may be useful tools of control, but they have enough potential to backfire that they're more of a last resort to more conventional scheming than a favorite tool. A gaggle of mortals with no idea who they're serving and why is easy to deny and replace, and can't generally be turned against them.)

The cautiousness involved in embracing vampires is also related to the social darwinism aspect. Remember that this is a clan that allowed diablerie of elders perceived as weak by neonates even before their entry into the Sabbat. Any childe you make is a potential rival, so you only make one for a damn good reason.

That said, not everyone is infalliable. There's nothing that says a Lasombra made a mistake and didn't do enough research into a person before their embrace.

You know it makes me wonder after all this time there could have been loose end Lasombra that don't follow their embrace practices and embrace everyone they wanted. I think this still makes the Lasombra being Self-Serving Social Darwinists as their splat wide hat which is highly rigid and restricting and not to mention if I remember the Gehenna source books, this was what led the downfall of their clan which they ironically ended up siding with their worst enemy the Ventrue. Point is why can't there be a Lasombra character who sees that their clan's philosophy is highly flawed and therefore rejects it?

Well especially making this embracing scenario 100% possible in Masquerade context:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gp6ICfVPO4

Especially the comment below:

NewWaveMasquerade 2 years ago
Lol Oh so they’re all Lasombra then; explains why they have no reflections. Yeah that sucks but on the bright side they’ll be able to manipulate shadows now. Yes I know that probably wasn’t intentional but I don’t care I’ll just pretend it is. The ending was funny too; I knew there was going to be lesbian joke in there some where. See ladies, men will just use you in the end, so come join the dyke side..... we have cookies and alcohol ;)

Well if NewWaveMasquerade is saying is true then is there any room for this scenario happening at all? Because apparently the embrace was accidental and there was no abuse involved, just a vampire who accidentally sucked all her blood and emergency embraced her and more than likely continue being friends afterwords.

One thing you might want to look at however is a Lasombra bloodline known as the Kiasyd. Kiasyd supposedly arose from an accident involving the fae. They possess Obtenebration and a special one of their own related to uncovering knowledge and secrets.

The big thing however is their nature and attitude is almost entirely unlike that of their parent clan, to the point where many Lasombra scarcely acknowledge them. They prefer the curious and knowledgeable for their embraces, and generally have a reputation as scholars of mysterious and arcane lore. In addition, they're not even really Sabbat. Most vampires classify them as such, but that's largely only because the Lasombra are. Kiasyd don't really care about the Sabbat or Vampire politics, they really only care about secrets and mysteries. I don't know if they share the weakness of the Lasombra though (i'm not really knowledgeable if bloodlines share their parent clan's weaknesses or not) they do have a weakness to cold iron though, since they're somewhat related to the fae in a similar way Tremere might be considered related to mages or gangrel to werewolves (something evident in their unnaturally tall bodies, strangely pale and occasionally bluish coloration and solid black eyes)

Kiasyd are an odd bunch to be sure, but they certainly act as a clear alternate to the social darwinist mainline Lasombra, and they have plenty of possibility for ones unaffiliated with the Sabbat. If you're okay with playing a rather weird and above all else curious character with Lasombra powers, they're a great possibility.

However the main problem with the Kiasyd especially being the only Fae based Vampire (although Dark Ages Vampire has the "Fae touched" which I wished also existed in modern era) that you're shoehorned into a bookworm/scholar character which is something I don't want.

Ravian

2015-06-01, 10:21 PM

You know it makes me wonder after all this time there could have been loose end Lasombra that don't follow their embrace practices and embrace everyone they wanted. I think this still makes the Lasombra being Self-Serving Social Darwinists as their splat wide hat which is highly rigid and restricting and not to mention if I remember the Gehenna source books, this was what led the downfall of their clan which they ironically ended up siding with their worst enemy the Ventrue. Point is why can't there be a Lasombra character who sees that their clan's philosophy is highly flawed and therefore rejects it?

Yeah, the only thing is you start to wonder if that wouldn't stray too far into Caitiff territory, rejecting the clan and all that.

Well if NewWaveMasquerade is saying is true then is there any room for this scenario happening at all? Because apparently the embrace was accidental and there was no abuse involved, just a vampire who accidentally sucked all her blood and emergency embraced her and more than likely continue being friends afterwords.

Anything's possible I suppose. That said it's doubtful either the accidental childe or her sire would be treated very well by the rest of the clan. Lasombra are supposed to have more control over themselves to not accidentally kill someone you fed on, much less embrace them afterwards due to some sort of childish affection for a kine. More than likely the sire would be encouraged by her clanmates (particularly her own sire) to just abandon the childe as a caitiff or else let someone else dispose of her if she can't do it herself.

Though more than likely that would lead to a very plausible reason why the Lasombra was raised as an Antribu.

However the main problem with the Kiasyd especially being the only Fae based Vampire (although Dark Ages Vampire has the "Fae touched" which I wished also existed in modern era) that you're shoehorned into a bookworm/scholar character which is something I don't want.

I suppose that's true, though it seems what they're mainly interested in is curiosity rather than bookishness. A spy or thief would likely be an odd choice for an embrace, but Kiasyd are nothing if not odd.

(I suppose the biggest downside is how stereotypically Victorian Gothic they are. :smalltongue:)

Bloodtomb

2015-06-01, 10:51 PM

Yeah, the only thing is you start to wonder if that wouldn't stray too far into Caitiff territory, rejecting the clan and all that.

Anything's possible I suppose. That said it's doubtful either the accidental childe or her sire would be treated very well by the rest of the clan. Lasombra are supposed to have more control over themselves to not accidentally kill someone you fed on, much less embrace them afterwards due to some sort of childish affection for a kine. More than likely the sire would be encouraged by her clanmates (particularly her own sire) to just abandon the childe as a caitiff or else let someone else dispose of her if she can't do it herself.

Though more than likely that would lead to a very plausible reason why the Lasombra was raised as an Antribu.

You know what if the sire refuses to abandon the childer despite the wishes of their clan mates and their own sire? Well especially if they happen to be good friends in life and she doesn't want to betray or abandon her own friend.

I suppose that's true, though it seems what they're mainly interested in is curiosity rather than bookishness. A spy or thief would likely be an odd choice for an embrace, but Kiasyd are nothing if not odd.

(I suppose the biggest downside is how stereotypically Victorian Gothic they are. :smalltongue:)

What about making a Kiasyd character who isn't interested in curiosity and are not stereotypically Victorian and just street rabbles like Brujah?

Or you know what? maybe I'm better off being a Caitiff character....

Ravian

2015-06-01, 11:23 PM

You know what if the sire refuses to abandon the childer despite the wishes of their clan mates and their own sire? Well especially if they happen to be good friends in life and she doesn't want to betray or abandon her own friend.

Again certainly possible, but the majority of the clan would likely disown the both of them. Friends are a weakness from your mortal days. Once you're embraced you're part of the Jyhad and such childish things will only get you killed. Obviously they can ignore all of that for the sake of their friendship, but don't expect any sympathy from other Lasombra (especially the grandsire, who might even try to rectify the mistake by killing the both of them)

What about making a Kiasyd character who isn't interested in curiosity and are not stereotypically Victorian and just street rabbles like Brujah?

Or you know what? maybe I'm better off being a Caitiff character....

Caitiff might be for the best. I will say that some mainline Lasombra might consider it worth their time to exercise control through street gangs, but Lasombra aren't exactly known for "slumming it" as some might call it.

The only thing to think about with a caitiff is how they'd learn Obtenebration, concerning how the Lasombra don't tend to teach it outside of the Sabbat. Perhaps they were a shovelhead during one of their mass embraces that no one bothered to figure out the sire of and just got tossed aside to hang around while they did more important things. They managed to figure out a little bit about Obtenebration by copying a Lasombra in the pack before they ran off (possibly because the Lasombra wasn't happy about clanless garbage using abyss mysticism.)

A Brujah antribu might also learn obtenebration, but they aren't known for their friendship with the Lasombra. (Sect membership does little to help. They get along as well as Camarilla Brujah and Ventrue tend to) A Brujah Antribu learning Obtenebration would probably be in the same boat as a Pander doing it once the Lasombra found out.

Gracht Grabmaw

2015-06-02, 07:45 AM

Bloodtomb

2015-06-02, 08:22 AM

comicshorse

2015-06-02, 08:42 AM

As I understand it it's rare for a Vampire to be exiled from his Clan as usually a Vampire that committed a crime serious enough for that would simply be executed. ( A Dark Ages character of mine was actually declared Caitiff but that was because he had pissed off a VERY powerful Elder rather than actually committing a crime).
And yeah the Lasombra love power and control so are usually found around power structures but that doesn't make them tied to the Nazi movement. Generally the Lasombra's favourite power structure to infiltrate is the Catholic church

Anonymouswizard

2015-06-02, 08:59 AM

Gracht Grabmaw

2015-06-02, 12:31 PM

Actually, there are four things Caitiff can mean:
2) A vampire who has abandoned/been abandoned by their clan socially but not metaphysically.
Completely false.
There is already another term for that. It's called antitribu.

Anonymouswizard

2015-06-02, 12:58 PM

Completely false.
There is already another term for that. It's called antitribu.

A Nosferatu can declare themselves not Nosferatu while remaining Camarilla or going independent. As he isn't in the Sabbat he isn't anti-clan (antitribu or anti tribe), and so is considered clanless (caitiff).

comicshorse

2015-06-02, 12:59 PM

Completely false.
There is already another term for that. It's called antitribu.

Nope, I'm with Anonymouswizard herre. The Antitribu have broken away from the main Clan voluntarily and formed their own opposing Clan.
A Vampire who has been exiled from his Clan (or voluntarilyy left it) and is on his own is Caitiff

http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Caitiff

http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Antitribu

P.S
Damn Ninja'ed (Nosferatu'ed ?)

Anonymouswizard

2015-06-02, 01:19 PM

Nope, I'm with Anonymouswizard herre. The Antitribu have broken away from the main Clan voluntarily and formed their own opposing Clan.
A Vampire who has been exiled from his Clan (or voluntarilyy left it) and is on his own is Caitiff

http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Caitiff

http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Antitribu

P.S
Damn Ninja'ed (Nosferatu'ed ?)

I don't think I'm sane, so Malkavian'ed?

Thanks for posting the links, I meant to, but got called for coffee duty before I could get them.

Ravian

2015-06-02, 11:16 PM

Okay so I'm seeing a lot of misconceptions in this thread.
First of all, caitiff does not mean you're a vampire who rejects or is rejected by your clan. Caitiff are thinblooded vampires mostly from unknown sires who turn without exhibiting the usual clan weaknesses and disciplines after the embrace, it has nothing to do with allegiance.

Not quite. Thin bloods are Caitiffs, but not all Caitiffs are thin bloods. If a vampire wakes up embraced but without any Sire around they typically end up Caitiff, not taking on the powers or weaknesses that one would expect. One could chalk it up to social ignorance if not for the fact that they don't even take on physical traits assoicated with the clan. (For example a Caitiff with a Nosferatu sire does not physically change to look like most Nosferatu.) Caitiffs and Thin-bloods typically have similar origins, but Caitiffs are stronger than your typical thin-blood and most definitely qualify as a vampire.

Secondly, not all kindred automatically fit into the broad clan stereotypes. Not every ventrue is a businessman, not every nosferatu is a spy and not every lasombra writes internet articles on the benefits of eugenics and tries to bomb special needs schools. Vampires are still people. And while a lasombra nazi character does fit and make sense, it doesn't meant that the lasombra as a clan are deeply tied to the nazi movement

I definitely agree with you, most of the clan stereotypes are more of a social thing based on whom clan members tend to embrace. Ventrue like to embrace people that know their way around power, Nosferatu target the dregs of society and Lasombra prefer humans that share their clan's philosophy. It's entirely possible for deviations from the norm to occur (either by accident or intention.)

The reason I say that Lasombra tend to adhere to the stereotype more often is because their clan has a philosophy that discourages embracing on a whim. A Lasombra is encouraged to take their time watching and studying their prospective childe to make sure they're worthy of it. Few Lasombra will embrace based off of a hunch or emotions, and because of this they're more likely to choose people that fit the Lasombra stereotype (since to them its a philosophy of power).

I do agree that that doesn't make them Nazis. Powerhungry and more than a little ruthless sure, but a Lasombra's just as likely to embrace a powerful person in a minority as they are a racist. Especially considering that Lasombra take their social darwinist stance from their position as vampires. From their perspective, all mortals are inferior and they're more likely to spend time focused on ensuring that the strongest vampires ascend to where they belong (it's little wonder why the sabbat attitude towards diablerie and elders would appeal to so many in the clan.)

(IIRC the handful of vampires involved in the nazi leadership in oWoD were actually brujah and malkavian)
Makes sense. Facism would be too new a concept for most vampires during the period it was active. Brujah are the only clan likely to take an interest in a new human political philosophy, and nobody can figure out why Malkavians do what they do. (If I recall correctly, a lot of Malkavians also really liked the early Christian church, with some even claiming that big J was a kindred of their clan.)

Bloodtomb

2015-06-03, 12:19 AM

The reason I say that Lasombra tend to adhere to the stereotype more often is because their clan has a philosophy that discourages embracing on a whim. A Lasombra is encouraged to take their time watching and studying their prospective childe to make sure they're worthy of it. Few Lasombra will embrace based off of a hunch or emotions, and because of this they're more likely to choose people that fit the Lasombra stereotype (since to them its a philosophy of power).

I guess it means every Lasombra are the same? If so this is not only boring but also makes them quite easy to spot as well and there is no room for non-sterotypical Lasombra character when you try to justify this.

Although could you confirm otherwise that is it even possible for Lasombra not adhere to their clan stereotype or is there any ones that embrace out of a whim?

comicshorse

2015-06-03, 07:05 AM

Perhaps it would help if you told us what kind of character you want to play and people could suggest ways it would fit the Lasombra Clan (or if it really didn't)

Ravian

2015-06-03, 11:06 AM

I guess it means every Lasombra are the same? If so this is not only boring but also makes them quite easy to spot as well and there is no room for non-sterotypical Lasombra character when you try to justify this.

Although could you confirm otherwise that is it even possible for Lasombra not adhere to their clan stereotype or is there any ones that embrace out of a whim?

No, social darwinism is simply a philosophy that Lasombra find important, just like a Toreador probably wouldn't embrace someone that didn't appreciate beautiful things. Lasombra might have extensive criteria for the childe, but those criteria are most like personal to the Lasombra in question, with the philosophy generally being the one consistent part that's carried over.

There are actually tons of factions within the Lasombra that are still generally considered accepted by the clan. Some factions still act fairly religious (Largely from the Lasombra's extensive infiltration of the Catholic Church) Some prefer to act through more secular groups (business and politics generally) Some are even scholars that study their own powers to learn how to grow stronger through them. There are even some traditionalist Lasombra that still act like corsairs upon the sea (For some reason Lasombra are really drawn to the sea)

Beyond that however, Lasombra are not infallible. For all their talk of caution and restraint while embracing there are undoubtedly going to be some that make act too hasty and embrace someone they thought would be closer to their expectations than they are, or simply let their emotions get the better of them. They're less common than in other clans but they exist. The reason I keep talking about the baseline attitudes of Lasombra is to illustrate what they would think of such a character existing outside of the stereotype. Most likely the clan would consider the childe a mistake to be removed and the sire an embarrassment. But as long as one other Lasombra accepts them as part of the clan (particularly the sire) than more than likely they'll end up Lasombra as well (though the majority of the clan might declare otherwise.)

If you're fine with a character with little in the way of allies from their clan, this should work out fine. And considering that you were already willing to have them not be part of the Sabbat, that's going to be a give in whether they follow the philosophy or not. (Sabbat Lasombra are quite adamant that Antribu of their clan do not exist, so adament that they actively hunt down and destroy those apparent exceptions.)

If you're worried about starting a character with so many enemies, I wouldn't worry. Vampire is already a game where it's best to assume that anyone and everyone is perfectly willing to kill you if given proper opportunity and motivation.

Bloodtomb

2015-06-03, 12:38 PM

If you're worried about starting a character with so many enemies, I wouldn't worry. Vampire is already a game where it's best to assume that anyone and everyone is perfectly willing to kill you if given proper opportunity and motivation.

And this is also one of the biggest reasons why I don't like VtM's Jyhad where it creates a setting where Vampires have Chronic Backstabbing Disorder (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChronicBackstabbingDisorder) which according to the page itself:

Vampires in general seem to have this as their species-wide hat. After all, the happiest vampire in the world is the last one.

It seems there's every reason to worry where it appears that your entire species (including yourself with the beast) is your enemy where you could might as well kill them all which if this is the case then I don't see Vampires as a species surviving that long which they'll either be extinct or there would be only one left. Why can't Vampire society be a reflection of human society (including Vampires working together) instead of "There can be only one" power games? Well it makes me wonder why the Masquerade exists in the first place which has to do that Vampires are so divided which allowed humans to easily hunt them down.

LibraryOgre

2015-06-03, 02:38 PM

Not all thin bloods are Caitiff. Not all Caitiff are thin blood. IIRC, Thin Blood is defined as being 14th or 15th generations... They have 10 Blood Pool, but can only use 8, and only 1 per round. However, they might still exhibit clan traits. Whereas some Caitiff are ones who the specific curses simply never took... they have the Curse of Cain, but not the curse of Malkav, Gangrel, or whoever.

sktarq

2015-06-04, 08:34 PM

one of my favorite parts of the Page A vs page B of the Sabbatt is the population dominance of the Lasombra and Fiends while having both say they don't like shovelheads. . . Just poor planning.

Sure young Lasombra who want to play up their usefulness to a higher up by getting their friends to create some shovelheads to create a distraction-if they see the character again they would probably kill them as a poor example of the clan. . . or perhaps they needed a lasombra as "bait" to see what the local response would be and your character who walked right and asked to join up with these new guys who noticed you didn't show in the lobby mirror. Atukaris could be another source-those who just sit out the whole Jyhad but perhaps a accident or personality conflict sent your character into the wider Jyhad filled world.

as for the divisions etc-for me it comes down to a simple issues-Humans will always win. . . Thus every vampire has the Sword of Damocles hanging over their head and a very tight small world - there are only a few perches in the world of darkness. New York would in theory (at a rough Metro of 16 Million and a 1/30K ratio) have a population of ~530 vampires. . . and most cities have far far less - Baltimore (the 26th largest city in the US would have a population of 20 according to the "official" ratios and 60 at major "overpopulation" so there are very few spots-and if any of the others messes up and draws hunters it well be YOU who dies.

comicshorse

2015-06-05, 05:56 AM

It seems there's every reason to worry where it appears that your entire species (including yourself with the beast) is your enemy where you could might as well kill them all which if this is the case then I don't see Vampires as a species surviving that long which they'll either be extinct or there would be only one left. Why can't Vampire society be a reflection of human society (including Vampires working together) instead of "There can be only one" power games? Well it makes me wonder why the Masquerade exists in the first place which has to do that Vampires are so divided which allowed humans to easily hunt them down.

But (IMHO) Vampire society and politics isn't about killing other Vampires ( apart from in rare cases) it's about controlling other Vampires.
Wether this control is from fear, leadership, debts, having something they need or even mutual interest depends on the Vampire in question and how they play the game.
I'd disagree most Vampires want to be the last one left alive, whose there to rule and implement your plans if that's the case ?
And this only applies to the power hungry Kindred many Vampires (generally not of the Lasombra admittedly) have no interest in power but have their own goals or simply find their hands full staying alive.

Nerd-o-rama

2015-06-05, 11:45 AM

As usual, TVTropes oversimplied something to the point of missing the point entirely.

Vampire society is hierarchical by its nature, especially in Masquerade where that hierarchy is enforced by Generation as well as physical and political power. The Camarilla is the worst about this, but it applies to the Sabbat as well. A lot of vampires (like a lot of humans) will, when stuck in a hierarchical structure, do anything they have to to climb the ladder and protect their position on it, or in the case of the Camarilla vs. Sabbat war tear down the other guys' ladder and replace it with the one you're on. Humans also don't live forever, and aren't cursed with a metaphysical manifestation of the id that sometimes overtakes their bodies and turns them into animalistic hunters and killers while simultaneously requiring casual physical abuse or murder to even sustain themselves, so Vampires get a lot worse about it. That's why vampires are, frankly, *******s, and why the Jyhad is a game of paranoia and fear.

That said, vampires don't want to kill all other vampires (well, most don't). They've got their own civil society, and while they're monsters, only those who have been overtaken entirely by the Beast or are possessed of deep self-hating obsession would just go on a murder spree for the hell of it, or even want every other vampire to die. Generally, Vampires just want to keep on unliving and satisfying whatever material or spiritual needs they have. It's just that Vampire existence is just even more dog-eat-dog than mortal life.

Anonymouswizard

2015-06-05, 01:44 PM

As usual, TVTropes oversimplied something to the point of missing the point entirely.

Vampire society is hierarchical by its nature, especially in Masquerade where that hierarchy is enforced by Generation as well as physical and political power. The Camarilla is the worst about this, but it applies to the Sabbat as well. A lot of vampires (like a lot of humans) will, when stuck in a hierarchical structure, do anything they have to to climb the ladder and protect their position on it, or in the case of the Camarilla vs. Sabbat war tear down the other guys' ladder and replace it with the one you're on. Humans also don't live forever, and aren't cursed with a metaphysical manifestation of the id that sometimes overtakes their bodies and turns them into animalistic hunters and killers while simultaneously requiring casual physical abuse or murder to even sustain themselves, so Vampires get a lot worse about it. That's why vampires are, frankly, *******s, and why the Jyhad is a game of paranoia and fear.

Don't forget that the best way to get the other guy's position in the Camarilla is if nobody knows you're responsible, only that you're better for the position than the now disgraced/dusted ex-occupant. The Sabbat is more willing to let you loot a position ('tadadada! You found 1 'bishop' on lasombra) but that's because the Sabbat has it's Bishops rely on support and personal power more than structure.

That said, vampires don't want to kill all other vampires (well, most don't). They've got their own civil society, and while they're monsters, only those who have been overtaken entirely by the Beast or are possessed of deep self-hating obsession would just go on a murder spree for the hell of it, or even want every other vampire to die. Generally, Vampires just want to keep on unliving and satisfying whatever material or spiritual needs they have. It's just that Vampire existence is just even more dog-eat-dog than mortal life.

I feel like most Camarilla vamps would settle for a Princeship because you have power, but don't have to help manage an entire sect.

Bloodtomb

2015-06-11, 01:30 PM

Does anyone notice any similarities between the Risen and Kindred (Vampires) and are their conditions really interchangable? For example is the Vampire's human self the psyche and their Beast is the Shadow? Also once a Vampire hits humanity 0 they become wights just like Wraiths/Risen become Spectres when the Shadow takes over, is this the same thing or rather are humanity 0 Vampires spectres?

Also Vampires drink Blood while Wraiths are fueled by Patheos....maybe Blood is the only way for Vampires/Kindred to get their 'partheos'?

JeenLeen

2015-06-11, 02:27 PM

Disclaimer: this is from my memory, but I've read a lot of the books. Also, I think oWoD books contradict each other, so I'm not surprised if part of the below is countered by another book (or even within the same book.)
---
From my understanding of the metaphysics, the part of the soul that forms the Shadow is the same part that forms the Beast (as well as the 'bad part' of the Keui-jin, which is very similar to the Shadow). However, this part of the soul is expressed rather differently between Kindred and Risen, hence the different name and mechanics.

Humanity 0 vampires are similar to spectres in some aspects, but from my understanding spectres tend to serve the objectives of Oblivion and can have intelligence, whereas Humanity 0 vamps just want to feed and kill and have animal cunning at best. (I could be wrong about this; I haven't read a lot about spectres.)

However, from there, I think the similarities end. A Risen (or ghost) works how it does because of how ghosts (incorporeal undead) work; in a sense, it could be considered a natural part of the 'life' cycle. Vampires work due to the Curse of Caine, and is always an aberration from the norm. You could consider pathos and what-they-get-from-blood to be similar (and feel free, as DM, to rule they are the same in your campaign if you wish), but I think they are rather different. Ghosts survive on passion and emotion; vampires survive on life force as blood. Perhaps they can be transmuted into one another -- vampire blood can be changed into/used as Tass by mages -- but they are not inherently the same.

In-universe, I can see scholars of the supernatural (e.g., mages, the Arcanum) proposing that blood and pathos are the same thing, but from my (perhaps incorrect) reading of the setting(s) and metaphysics, that would be mistaken.

SaurOps

2015-06-11, 02:40 PM

They're not really interchangeable even with vampires that actually resemble them in origin (the Hungry Dead of Kindred of the East*). Vampires subsist off of blood or vitality taken directly from the living; Risen are wraiths and act out Passions or interact and guard their Fetters to this purpose, which rather destroys the notion that their daily existence is similar in any way. Wraiths, as ghosts, are also not dependent on Pathos the way that vampires are dependent on blood, simply burning it up just to keeping existing. All of this, Disciplines used as shorthand or not, tends to make gameplay anything but interchangeable.

A Vampire game will be focused on nightly existence, doing really terrible things to continue your unlife, and getting jaded to being a monster that hides during the daytime. A Wraith game that uses Risen will focus on the normal things that a Wraith game does (fulfilling or coming to terms with unfinished business), only with more focus on the Skinlands, even during the day.

*Risen are wraiths and their souls stayed intact after death. The Wan Gui also died, but their souls split in two, and the Shadow-analog went to hell for a few weeks or so before returning to loosely reunite with the Psyche-equivalent. The resulting loose connection and residual demonic taint produces a vampire-like creature instead of the protagonists of The Crow series.

Anonymouswizard

2015-06-11, 04:51 PM

Does anyone notice any similarities between the Risen and Kindred (Vampires) and are their conditions really interchangable? For example is the Vampire's human self the psyche and their Beast is the Shadow?

This is, weird. The Beast can be seen as a Shadow-analogue, but there is a problem. A wraith who's shadow is removed would either stop existing or continue as normal, depending on if agnst is tied to the character or shadow (I prefer the first, and think that a new shadow would grow to replace a destroyed one). A vampire without the Beast (which can happen in-cannon) is devoid of drive and Willpower, similar to a soulless human, so the more frightening possibility is the more likely one: the Beast is not the Shadow, but a twisted version of the Psyche.

Also once a Vampire hits humanity 0 they become wights just like Wraiths/Risen become Spectres when the Shadow takes over, is this the same thing or rather are humanity 0 Vampires spectres?

As people have pointed out, no, a spectre can be smart (and probably is if they got their Psyche to succumb), whereas a Wight goes 'hunt, feed, rest, sleep, repeat'.

Also Vampires drink Blood while Wraiths are fueled by Patheos....maybe Blood is the only way for Vampires/Kindred to get their 'partheos'?

Unlikely, as stored blood does contain some vitae (yes, vitae is in Masquerade, it's the term for the life energy blood supplies, and is measured in Blood Points), which means vitae is not generated by emotion

SaurOps

2015-06-11, 05:33 PM

This is, weird. The Beast can be seen as a Shadow-analogue, but there is a problem. A wraith who's shadow is removed would either stop existing or continue as normal, depending on if agnst is tied to the character or shadow (I prefer the first, and think that a new shadow would grow to replace a destroyed one). A vampire without the Beast (which can happen in-cannon) is devoid of drive and Willpower, similar to a soulless human, so the more frightening possibility is the more likely one: the Beast is not the Shadow, but a twisted version of the Psyche.

Given the constant comparisons of the Beast to a lesser, unaware P'o, it probably isn't the totality of a Kindred's inner being. After all, the non-Beast part of the vampire has Conscience/Conviction, and that doesn't sit with the P'o or Shadow (Spectres have to deal with a Psyche that has a Composure rating, presumably an equivalent to Conscience/Conviction/Hun).

Wraiths lacking one or the other are probably not in a good way, or even proper wraiths anymore.

JeenLeen

2015-06-12, 08:33 AM

Anonymouswizard

2015-06-12, 08:55 AM

Given the constant comparisons of the Beast to a lesser, unaware P'o, it probably isn't the totality of a Kindred's inner being. After all, the non-Beast part of the vampire has Conscience/Conviction, and that doesn't sit with the P'o or Shadow (Spectres have to deal with a Psyche that has a Composure rating, presumably an equivalent to Conscience/Conviction/Hun).

At this point I think we need to decide if the Psyche and the Mind are the same thing. Yes is the simpler action, but the question is what does Composure mean? Conscience/Conviction are shorthands for the vampire's ability to justify/feel bad about what they have just done, so I wouldn't equate them. I agree that the Beast isn't the entirety of the Kindred's inner being, but I don't think that the man is the Psyche and the Beast is the Shadow. I don't mind the idea that the Beast could be the Shadow, it's just that I associate Drive with the Psyche and the Beast seems to be a Cainite's drive. I might be wrong about this.

Wraiths lacking one or the other are probably not in a good way, or even proper wraiths anymore.

I agree, but does a Wraith who loses their Shadow/Psyche doomed to be incomplete, or will a new one grow? I actually support loss of the Shadow resulting in transcendence/oblivion in 99% of cases, but in the small chance that a Wraith survives losing their Shadow they'll just get another one soon enough.

This is how I understand it. I could be wrong, but I'm putting the idea out here for discussion.

When someone dies, their Hun/Psyche/'human self' and Shadow/P'o/'darker self' are disconnected in some way or another. For wraiths (and thus Risen), it takes the form of the Psyche and Shadow. For Kuei-Jin, it is basically the same as Psyche and Shadow, but is called the Hun and P'o for cultural reasons and since, as they are physical and don't necessarily know the similarity they share with wraiths, they don't know it's the same. Kindred are different. I think the 'person' the vampire is is the Hun/Psyche and the Beast is the Shadow/P'o, but the Beast acts very differently. Maybe that's because of the Curse of Caine, or because they are dead in a very different way between death and reanimation.

In all reality it's possible that a Cainite does not have a Psyche and Shadow, but rather that the Man and the Beast are different. Maybe the Beast is entirely new, and the Man is how the soul was before death, as one complete being. The Cainite Beast does act very differently from the Shadow, so differently that I'm reluctant to label them as being the same thing. Bare in mind that the Beast does not really care about the Man, it just wants to survive, compared to the Shadow actively trying to usurp the Psyche.

I think I remember reading in the book Kindred of the East that Kuei-jin's 'two selves' really are the same as the Psyche and Shadow, but just the Shadow is different. I haven't read anything in canon comparing the Beast to the darker self, but it seems to fit. BUT, even if metaphysically you can correlate the Beast to the Shadow, that... doesn't really mean much in-game. I guess spells that impact one might impact the other, but that's not necessarily the case.* I can see a Kindred or Keui-jin persisting even if their Beast/P'o is destroyed since they have a corporeal body to persist as; for wraiths, without this 'protection', perhaps they do fade away (or reincarnate, or something similar. Is there any 'good ending' for a wraith besides 'stay sane forever' or 'become a spectre'?)

*I think one of the mage books states that Entropy magic can cause wraiths to give into the Shadow (maybe triggers a hard roll not to), but it doesn't have any similar effect when used around Keui-jin or Kindred. But that could just be a protection having a body gives.

I don't have Kindred of the East, so I'm arguing entirely from Wraith and Vampire here. I agree that it has practically no in-game effect, but I'm still waiting to see evidence before I agree that they are likely related. Why can't the Beast just be an enhanced id (in my view created by twisting the Psyche, but that's because I've separated base personality from the Psyche), it makes it all simpler than the Beast being 'like the Shadow, but different'.

JeenLeen

2015-06-12, 09:49 AM

I don't have Kindred of the East, so I'm arguing entirely from Wraith and Vampire here. I agree that it has practically no in-game effect, but I'm still waiting to see evidence before I agree that they are likely related. Why can't the Beast just be an enhanced id (in my view created by twisting the Psyche, but that's because I've separated base personality from the Psyche), it makes it all simpler than the Beast being 'like the Shadow, but different'.

I see the reasoning behind that, and it does make sense. Maybe the Beast is the same part of the soul, but after this conversation I see that there is little evidence to believe that.
I'll admit I'm ignorant to a degree on Wraith. I've read most of the Wraith core book, but my oWoD experience has dealt mostly with Mage and Cainite vampires.

SaurOps

2015-06-12, 10:03 AM

At this point I think we need to decide if the Psyche and the Mind are the same thing. Yes is the simpler action, but the question is what does Composure mean? Conscience/Conviction are shorthands for the vampire's ability to justify/feel bad about what they have just done, so I wouldn't equate them. I agree that the Beast isn't the entirety of the Kindred's inner being, but I don't think that the man is the Psyche and the Beast is the Shadow. I don't mind the idea that the Beast could be the Shadow, it's just that I associate Drive with the Psyche and the Beast seems to be a Cainite's drive. I might be wrong about this.

Drive isn't the Psyche. Hun imbalance causes one of the Hungry Dead to be very self-restricted, to the point where the vampire can't spend Willpower to get an automatic success. And the Hun is the part that comes from the Psyche and the analog of Conscience/Conviction. Also, a lost Beast, at least according to the copy of DA: V, makes one of the Kindred lethargic. Not exactly the same, but the concepts touch on a few common threads.

I agree, but does a Wraith who loses their Shadow/Psyche doomed to be incomplete, or will a new one grow? I actually support loss of the Shadow resulting in transcendence/oblivion in 99% of cases, but in the small chance that a Wraith survives losing their Shadow they'll just get another one soon enough.

I think that they're SOL until someone comes along with a spare Shadow/P'o and a high-level power that allows soul transfers. I can't find a reference in the books I have, though.

In all reality it's possible that a Cainite does not have a Psyche and Shadow, but rather that the Man and the Beast are different. Maybe the Beast is entirely new, and the Man is how the soul was before death, as one complete being. The Cainite Beast does act very differently from the Shadow, so differently that I'm reluctant to label them as being the same thing. Bare in mind that the Beast does not really care about the Man, it just wants to survive, compared to the Shadow actively trying to usurp the Psyche.

Therein lies another difference between vampires and Risen.

I don't have Kindred of the East, so I'm arguing entirely from Wraith and Vampire here. I agree that it has practically no in-game effect, but I'm still waiting to see evidence before I agree that they are likely related. Why can't the Beast just be an enhanced id (in my view created by twisting the Psyche, but that's because I've separated base personality from the Psyche), it makes it all simpler than the Beast being 'like the Shadow, but different'.

KotE is like a hybrid between the two. All of the Wraith references play more into KotE than they do into Vampire with Kindred. Kindred themselves aren't really ghosts, because they can experience Final Death and become ghosts that way. That probably wouldn't be so tenable if they were already fully dead in a similar manner.

McStabbington

2015-06-14, 03:24 PM

I realize I'm coming to this thread a bit late, but I think it needs to be said that while every Clan follows a Jungian archetype, the type doesn't necessarily have to reflect the type of player you are going to play. It is simply the stereotype or the tradition of the Clan that you, the player, can hew to or play against if you choose.

The last three games of V:DA I've played, I've played a European Assamite woodsman that for some reason had a knack for Protean, a Ravnos knight from the Crusades with an 8 on the Road of Chivalry, and a deposed thieves' guild leader from Vienna who was turned into a Lasombra. Absolutely none of these fit the stereotype of the Clan. And in each case, they paid a price for their failure to adhere to the norm: the Assamite spent hundreds of years living on the fringes of civilization for fear that his Clan would track him down. The Ravnos had to be blood-bonded and have his mortal family held hostage to get him to pretend to be a Ventrue for his master's plan. The Lasombra was sent on what was supposed to be a suicide mission because of how much an embarrassment he was to his sire. But in each case, that made for a better, stronger story and a character with foes to best and reasons to survive for another night.

The point being that the Clan is something that should inform your character. It will be something that your character bounces off of. But how he or she bounces is entirely up to you, and is entirely determined by what kind of person you yourself determine your character to be. If he's a schemer who can talk two countries into war on the fly? Great, your character will go far within the Shadow Clan. If he's an honorable warrior who detests political games? Your sire will probably quietly treat you with contempt, but guess what? You'll frequently find common cause with those Brujah or Ventrue in town, and gradually they will accept you for what you are. If he's a woodsman who just wants to be left alone? So long as he's true to his word and doesn't back down from a fight, he'll probably eventually earn the grudging admiration of the local Gangrel. If he's kind or knows a lot, he'll earn the appreciation of the local Nosferatu as well. In whatever case, no matter what you choose, your character will have opportunities to learn, grow and thrive if they are smart and canny. And no matter what you choose, you'll earn enemies along the way. And that's for the good, because the point is to make a good story.

Anonymouswizard

2015-06-14, 04:14 PM

I do like non stereotypical characters, so I want to play a Malkavian with severe depression, a Ventrue bruiser, a Tzimisce priest (partially of the pack variety, but also the Church type), an Toreador policeman (oh how useful would Auspex be?), a conservative Brujah, an Assamite vizer something, and several others. I do hate the 'honourable Assamite assassin' problem, where someone will look at the basic stereotype of the clan and play that (that player was not happy to find out that 1: the Camarilla new that the Assamite antritribu did not suffer from the blood curse, and 2: the local elders had long enough memories that they assumed Assamite=diablerist, especially for warriors).

Bloodtomb

2015-06-16, 12:23 PM

I wonder if there exist in the cWoD of any alternatives to Kindred/Cainintes for those who want to play as a Vampire like character but doesn't want to be a Cainite/Kindred due to reasons (The Beast, Humanity system, Abrahamic origins/Biblical Literalism)? Especially in a Post-Gehenna setting where all Kindred are wiped out (especially by the wormwood scenario) what will replace them or what is the closest supernatural that can replicate a Vampire?

Although I am aware of KotE but actually I'm leaving it out as out of the question due to my personal reasons.

So basically for example, can a Risen 'pretend' to be a vampire by wearing fangs, drinking blood as a way to fuel their pathoes, and also learning disciplines (although I wonder if Risen can learn 'advanced' disciplines like Obtenebration, Vicissitude, etc) and can they be somehow be 'immortal'?

Or can a Mage perform 'false immortality alchemy' to become a Vampire without any connection to Caine?

Although I think all of them have one thing in common that they can't embrace, bloodbond/ghoul, and they can walk in the sun and they have no beast either which I wonder if such a vampire "species" like that can exist?

Or in short, I wonder if it's possible to have "Necromantic" Vampires as presented from Legacy of Kain well especially Kain (and his "lineage") style Vampires?

comicshorse

2015-06-16, 12:46 PM

[QUOTE=Bloodtomb;19408414

Or can a Mage perform 'false immortality alchemy' to become a Vampire without any connection to Caine?

[/QUOTE]

Like the Tremere ?

Bloodtomb

2015-06-16, 12:54 PM

Like the Tremere ?

No, the Tremere are still Cainites/Kindred, I'm talking about self-made vampires who are not Cainites/Kindred as in they don't have the Curse of Caine but a entirely a new 'breed' of Vampires all together.

Basically, I wonder if it's possible in the cWoD to have Vampirism without the Curse of Caine package.

Anonymouswizard

2015-06-16, 01:03 PM

No, the Tremere are still Cainites/Kindred, I'm talking about self-made vampires who are not Cainites/Kindred as in they don't have the Curse of Caine but a entirely a new 'breed' of Vampires all together.

Basically, I wonder if it's possible in the cWoD to have Vampirism without the Curse of Caine package.

In 1e-2e revised? Only if you go Kuei-Jin. In 20A, it's possible that some Laibion might not be Cainites, but they still have something VERY similar to the Curse of Caine.

Cool Trash

2015-06-16, 01:12 PM

JeenLeen

2015-06-16, 01:15 PM

So basically for example, can a Risen 'pretend' to be a vampire by wearing fangs, drinking blood as a way to fuel their pathoes, and also learning disciplines (although I wonder if Risen can learn 'advanced' disciplines like Obtenebration, Vicissitude, etc) and can they be somehow be 'immortal'?

Or can a Mage perform 'false immortality alchemy' to become a Vampire without any connection to Caine?

Although I think all of them have one thing in common that they can't embrace, bloodbond/ghoul, and they can walk in the sun and they have no beast either which I wonder if such a vampire "species" like that can exist?

Or in short, I wonder if it's possible to have "Necromantic" Vampires as presented from Legacy of Kain well especially Kain (and his "lineage") style Vampires?

On Risen: I think one could pretend to be such. Dental work could be done to give fangs; I don't think that would heal naturally. You would probably need to be a 'higher rank' than a Shambler, to avoid decay being obvious, but I reckon most PCs would play at that level. They probably wouldn't pass inspection by someone who knew a lot about Cainites, but 'undead and drinks blood' would verify it enough for most people. You can't learn all the Disciplines, no, but you could imitate some via Arcanoi (I reckon, not too knowledagable of wraith powers) and Risen tend to get something akin to Potence and Fortitude. Risen shouldn't be able to drink blood alone as a way to regain Pathos, but I could see a Risen who has a Passion about vengeance drinking the blood of his enemies to help him hide as a vamp. Vengeance is the real means of Pathos regeneration, but he uses blood as a cover.

On Mages: I don't think that happens in canon, but at Spheres of 6+ it'd be likely one could do something. True immortality doesn't really work on earth since Paradox will kill you, but if Gehenna did enough damage to the world or reshaped beliefs enough (like if normal folk saw Antedeluvians fighting), then Paradox is probably weaker and such might be possible. Spheres can imitate Disciplines, if crudely, and you could probably pass as a vamp to all but mages or other vamps, but that's a lot of 'dox, and a bad backlash could out you as not a vamp.
...but maybe it could work at lower Spheres, if you don't care about actually being undead. I could see a mix of Life and Entropy to mask yourself as undead, Life to grow fangs and be able to get physical nourishment from blood, and Spheres in general to imitate some powers. I haven't seen rotes spelled out, but I could see Life 2/Entropy 2 (fake life/death auras) and Life 3 (modify self physically). Such might come with some perma-dox, but you might be able to make it happening consequential if you perform the rotes on yourself while undergoing surgical procedures. Drinking blood for subsistence is probably the hardest to avoid perma-dox for, but just still eat when nobody's looking? If you want to actually make your internal organs not function, you probably will have to have perma-dox on earth, unless again the Consensus has changed such that folk believe in vampires.

Also, I think 'mundane' alchemy (Sorcery) can grant immortality, and that doesn't give Paradox, but I'm not 100% sure. Get dental work, some cosmetic surgery to look undead, and drink blood in front of people. You look like a vamp. Sorcerers would have a harder time imitating Disciplines, though.

But with all the above, this is not someone truly like a vampire, but rather someone using their powers to pretend to be a vampire.

I don't think anything like Legacy of Kain-type exists in oWoD. nWoD with its bloodlines could have something like it, and you could port some of its fluff into oWoD pretty easily, but I think you'd have to rely on non-canonical homebrew.

Bloodtomb

2015-06-16, 01:21 PM

It's a completely valid interpretation that all Kindred are just descendants of one guy Lilith totally failed to forceably awaken. You could have that happen, but on a smaller scale by a weaker mage(which fits, because all other vampires aren't supposed to be anywhere near Caine's power level anyway).

Well I thought VtM established that as objective fact which to be honest is one of my biggest problems I have with the game which is why I'm looking for alternatives.

Here's an idea: if the Kindred weren't wiped out, by say, God or something, like in the church ending to Vampire, it's also valid that there are still revenants or dhampyrs kicking around. A couple of them reproduce over the course of a couple generations, and boom! You've got a simulacrum of high-generation vampires who are technically human and don't have to worry about Gehenna or humanity(though they could still frenzy).

I'm talking if Vampires are completely wiped out by the Wormwood ending and plus I think the 'Revenants', Ghouls, and Dhampyrs would be affected too therefore that's why I'm suggesting a entirely new Vampire 'race' that has no connection to any Abrahamic origins so Yahweh wouldn't touch them because they come from a entirely different origin.

On Risen: I think one could pretend to be such. Dental work could be done to give fangs; I don't think that would heal naturally. You would probably need to be a 'higher rank' than a Shambler, to avoid decay being obvious, but I reckon most PCs would play at that level. They probably wouldn't pass inspection by someone who knew a lot about Cainites, but 'undead and drinks blood' would verify it enough for most people. You can't learn all the Disciplines, no, but you could imitate some via Arcanoi (I reckon, not too knowledagable of wraith powers) and Risen tend to get something akin to Potence and Fortitude. Risen shouldn't be able to drink blood alone as a way to regain Pathos, but I could see a Risen who has a Passion about vengeance drinking the blood of his enemies to help him hide as a vamp. Vengeance is the real means of Pathos regeneration, but he uses blood as a cover.

On Mages: I don't think that happens in canon, but at Spheres of 6+ it'd be likely one could do something. True immortality doesn't really work on earth since Paradox will kill you, but if Gehenna did enough damage to the world or reshaped beliefs enough (like if normal folk saw Antedeluvians fighting), then Paradox is probably weaker and such might be possible. Spheres can imitate Disciplines, if crudely, and you could probably pass as a vamp to all but mages or other vamps, but that's a lot of 'dox, and a bad backlash could out you as not a vamp.
...but maybe it could work at lower Spheres, if you don't care about actually being undead. I could see a mix of Life and Entropy to mask yourself as undead, Life to grow fangs and be able to get physical nourishment from blood, and Spheres in general to imitate some powers. I haven't seen rotes spelled out, but I could see Life 2/Entropy 2 (fake life/death auras) and Life 3 (modify self physically). Such might come with some perma-dox, but you might be able to make it happening consequential if you perform the rotes on yourself while undergoing surgical procedures. Drinking blood for subsistence is probably the hardest to avoid perma-dox for, but just still eat when nobody's looking? If you want to actually make your internal organs not function, you probably will have to have perma-dox on earth, unless again the Consensus has changed such that folk believe in vampires.

Also, I think 'mundane' alchemy (Sorcery) can grant immortality, and that doesn't give Paradox, but I'm not 100% sure. Get dental work, some cosmetic surgery to look undead, and drink blood in front of people. You look like a vamp. Sorcerers would have a harder time imitating Disciplines, though.

But with all the above, this is not someone truly like a vampire, but rather someone using their powers to pretend to be a vampire.

I think this can be nice concept to explore in a setting where Kindred/Cainintes are all wiped out by Gehenna and the 'Pretenders' get to claim that they are the source of the myths or as if they are their replacements....but pretty depressing at the same time though.

JeenLeen

2015-06-16, 02:20 PM

I think this can be nice concept to explore in a setting where Kindred/Cainintes are all wiped out by Gehenna and the 'Pretenders' get to claim that they are the source of the myths or as if they are their replacements....but pretty depressing at the same time though.

Goblin-type changelings might be an option as well, or any that are of a strong 'winter' and violence streak. I could see some of their motivations actually motivating doing this.

In general, I don't think a lot of supernaturals would want to pass as vampires, except possibly Risen. But I could see small groups wanting to make a powerplay. Mages might really like the idea if folk believe in vampires now, so if you can pass as one, no Paradox. I could see some powerful Nephandi doing that and other mages as well, though I imagine the most of the Traditions (especially Order of Hermes, with their history with the Tremere) and the Technocracy would be opposed to such practices. One group I could see gaining power through this medium would be... the name escapes me, but it's the 'cliche goth' group allied with the Traditions; some of their foci would blend very well with cliche vampiric dress, demeanor, and acts.

I do find the idea of a mage posing as vampire being funny. Especially if he's pushed into a wall and starts throwing powerful fireballs (as opposed to weak Tremere fire), and/or is immune to flame via Forces.

Bloodtomb

2015-06-16, 02:39 PM

Goblin-type changelings might be an option as well, or any that are of a strong 'winter' and violence streak. I could see some of their motivations actually motivating doing this.

Problem is though I don't like Changeling: Dreaming due to it's rigidity of the kiths (since Goblins I can imagine can only be 'Nosferatu' types which is restricting) and I like DA: Fae better though....

JeenLeen

2015-06-16, 03:33 PM

Problem is though I don't like Changeling: Dreaming due to it's rigidity of the kiths (since Goblins I can imagine can only be 'Nosferatu' types which is restricting) and I like DA: Fae better though....

I haven't read the Gehenna/end-of-the-world stuff for Vampire, so I don't know how the world changes in the different endings, but I could see some outcomes allowing real fey to return from Arcadia to earth. From what I can tell from Dark Ages Changeling, Changeling, and mage books, as reality got more static, they started having to flee or become changelings lest they die. Seems reasonable they could start coming back if things changed drastically enough.

But fair enough if you don't care for changelings.

Honestly, you could homebrew something happening in response to Gehenna. Mummies came back after the Week of Nightmares*, and nobody really knew about them except legends. Hunters showed up suddenly. Something new that looks similar to vampires but aren't could start showing up, too.

*EDIT: or at least, relatively lots of mummies started showing up, compared to a very small number.

A_Man

2015-06-16, 03:48 PM

Could easily fluff a Mage into a vampire. Blood magic as it's focus, grab spheres that fit stuff you'd think a vampire should be able to do (I'd start with life for healing). Heck, pretty sure you could mimick dialberie, since according to the Hermes vs Tremere book, vampire blood contiains quint.

Hollowed Ones would e the tradition most apt for it, obviously, lol

Bloodtomb

2015-06-16, 09:41 PM

For those who never liked the cWoD's modern Fae game "Changeling: The Dreaming" and never wishes to use it, perhaps would porting DA: Fae in the modern era be a better alternative despite the WoD canon? Although canon wise, is there a way to have DA: Fae and C:tD coexist separately and have them have as separate supernaturals (like DA: Fae are actual Fae while Dreaming Changelings are manifestations born from human dreams) without any contradiction?

Also how can DA: Fae function in the modern era as well and especially has anyone tried it?

LibraryOgre

2015-06-16, 11:45 PM

Alternatively, you might keep the Kindred rules more or less as they are, and replace the Beast and Frenzy with something more akin to Elder Scrolls Oblivion vampires. So long as they feed regularly, they're just a bit more vulnerable to fire, and have a few bonuses to attributes and skills. The longer they go without feeding, though, the more these things grow, and the more other people reject them.

Using VTM mechanics, you might decide, instead of tying it to absolute "last time you fed", go with Blood Points. So, at 10 BP, you can walk around all you like. No one really notices you're a vampire (there might be some little clues, but nothing that screams it). However, as you spend blood (and you spend blood every day), you get more bestial, and take a Difficulty modifier for interacting with humans (without using your powers). Now, some vampires are more powerful than others, and so have the equivalent of advanced generation... they can use some of their powers without losing their relative invisibility. Less powerful vampires, however, can still spend blood points to use powers, and sometimes match their elders.

You keep the "Generation" background, and what it means, mechanically (i.e. bigger blood pool, more points per round). You lose the Humanity mechanics, for the most part, replacing it with a "how many blood points do you have left" mechanic. You might choose to let people improve their overall vampiric power by buying up Generation with XP, rather than strict diablerie.

You ditch all the Cainite nonsense, or leave it as the beliefs of some vampires. Setites, of course, believe that vampires were created by Set. The Giovanni will tell you of an ancient sect of necromancers who brought death into life and life into death. The Gangrel? They'll tell you that vampires were ancient shamans, cursed for forbidden magics, while the Baali will tell you that the first vampire was created when a very weak demon... weaker even than the wolf, ram, and hart... possessed a corpse before most of the demons were driven out. Maybe the Ventrue believe in the Cainite. Maybe Cainites are a powerful sect within vampire society, who see their curse as a holy one, and seek to make a Sabbat of the manifestation of their curse.

JeenLeen

2015-06-17, 08:02 AM

The fey left because they could not survive on earth any longer.
If something cosmological happened to allow the Fey to return, fey would co-exist alongside changelings. If you don't want to go with some truly world-altering thing, you could say that the Week of Nightmares changed something that opened the doorways to Arcadia. (This contradicts the supposed reason fey thought they had to leave, and the reason Mage says they left, but that's fine.) Some true fey adventured to earth and discovered they don't get sick and die. So more are coming.

I would imagine there would be power struggles. The true fey would likely be split between those wanting to help their 'cousins' who have had to hide as humans, while others would want to be the rightful rulers of changeling courts. Changelings would likewise be split in their attitudes towards the returners.

I haven't read the Dark Ages book on fey, so I can't posit much more.

EDIT: one additional note. As written, I imagine the Dark Ages fey are much stronger than their modern counterparts, due to magic in general working more easily in the past. Mages got less 'dox in the Dark Ages, which in turn made them more powerful in that they could do more. Garou had some Gifts that seemed very powerful, which they no longer have in the modern core rulebook. I don't know the powers of Dark Ages fey, or how it compares to modern changelings, but I imagine they are more powerful, too. You might want to embrace that, or tone it down by the logic of the world accepts them enough now not to kill them automatically but not so much that it doesn't limit their power.

sktarq

2015-06-17, 09:44 PM

Well I thought VtM established that as objective fact which to be honest is one of my biggest problems I have with the game which is why I'm looking for alternatives.

VtM had an allergy to facts about anything older than about 1500 so I'm wondering where you get this?

SaurOps

2015-06-18, 01:25 AM

VtM had an allergy to facts about anything older than about 1500 so I'm wondering where you get this?

I'm going to guess that it had something to do with the metaplot of Vampire and ride up to Gehenna hitting the Noddism gong over and over again, until it became deafening.

Bloodtomb

2015-06-18, 05:02 PM

Well basically the main premise of this is to have a cWoD setting where other supernaturals survive but the Kindred no longer exist due to Gehenna which I've been wondering what other supernatural splat would take up their mantle as the 'vampire' replacement although they'll never be truly vampires?

Bloodtomb

2015-06-18, 05:27 PM

Anonymouswizard

2015-06-18, 06:05 PM

I have this rather interesting but crazy thought in my mind...what if in a "Gehenna scenario" instead of the Withering, what about the Thickening where what if every Vampire in the world are actually having their generations lowering to eventually all of them have Caine level powers? Could anyone imagine if that happened?

Or basically can you imagine every Vampire in the world having level 13 powered disciplines?

If the blood thickens past 3rd gen (there is no evidence for this, and the curse of generations implies it would start weaning at 4th gen) then it wouldn't get past level 12 disciplines.

My thoughts on the most likely scenario? The vampires rule over humanity until only a handful remain, who stabilise the blood by forming clans and siring the new 4th gens.

SaurOps

2015-06-18, 06:10 PM

Didn't Generation stop adding to Trait maxima after getting to 3rd? 1st to 3rd gens all have the same power level, with some resistance to Dominate at 2nd and 1st, and it isn't until 4th gen that the power actually starts decreasing?

comicshorse

2015-06-18, 06:56 PM

Also there's suggestions high Gen. Vampires require stronger stuff than human blood to sustain them. So what you have is is a world of Caine level Vampires who can only feed by attacking each other.
So open conflict between all Vampires were every Vampire has 10th Level Disciplines
Not sure how much of the world would survive that

BWR

2015-06-20, 12:39 AM

Bloodtomb

2015-06-20, 09:03 AM

If you don't mind creating something new rather than adapting existing things, I would assume Wyrmspawn of some kind. With the normal Kindred gone but the Wyrm wanting something equally powerful to take its place, it makes Vampires 2.0 ("New! Improved! Now with 100% less Caine. Angst is optional.")
Maybe just make an extreme variant of Black Spiral Dancers for anyone who is ok with playing a Gangrel.

Or maybe rather I would leave Werewolf's cosmology out of this, maybe I could make a need breed of "Risen" who simply drink blood to preserve their 'immortality' (or rather preserving the corpse the wraith/ghost/etc is inhabiting in) or else they'll just go through mortis stages of decay if they don't because due to being undead, they must require sources of the living to continue existing in the material world or else the corpse rots out becoming walking skeletons making them easily vulnerable to destruction (unless it's coated in blood....) until the ghost/wraith leaves the vessel to search for another corpse to inhabit since they don't embrace, they just come back from the dead.

Or another possibility that they start out as "Pretas" or the "Hungry Dead" that are like zombies eating everything they can until they become intelligent enough to feed on life sources that is not theirs....

Bloodtomb

2015-06-21, 01:02 PM

The fey left because they could not survive on earth any longer.
If something cosmological happened to allow the Fey to return, fey would co-exist alongside changelings. If you don't want to go with some truly world-altering thing, you could say that the Week of Nightmares changed something that opened the doorways to Arcadia. (This contradicts the supposed reason fey thought they had to leave, and the reason Mage says they left, but that's fine.) Some true fey adventured to earth and discovered they don't get sick and die. So more are coming.

I would imagine there would be power struggles. The true fey would likely be split between those wanting to help their 'cousins' who have had to hide as humans, while others would want to be the rightful rulers of changeling courts. Changelings would likewise be split in their attitudes towards the returners.

I think you didn't read my OP saying that DA: Fae and C:tD are entirely different supernaturals with their own lore which Arcadia or the Dreaming doesn't exist in DA: Fae for one example.

I haven't read the Dark Ages book on fey, so I can't posit much more.

There's your problem....I guess anyone who hasn't read the DA: Fae book should not reply to this thread unless they have.

EDIT: one additional note. As written, I imagine the Dark Ages fey are much stronger than their modern counterparts, due to magic in general working more easily in the past. Mages got less 'dox in the Dark Ages, which in turn made them more powerful in that they could do more. Garou had some Gifts that seemed very powerful, which they no longer have in the modern core rulebook. I don't know the powers of Dark Ages fey, or how it compares to modern changelings, but I imagine they are more powerful, too. You might want to embrace that, or tone it down by the logic of the world accepts them enough now not to kill them automatically but not so much that it doesn't limit their power.

Or maybe I should do a "Dark Ages: Modern" setting perhaps?

Bloodtomb

2015-06-22, 11:48 AM

{scrubbed}

Bloodtomb

2015-06-25, 01:14 PM

Rater202

2015-06-25, 01:22 PM

It really depends on the individual.

LibraryOgre

2015-06-25, 02:12 PM

Generally, if you're playing Vampire, there are sympathetic vampires, but if you're playing Werewolf, they're going to be few and far between.

In most other cases, I think there's usually sympathetic individual within the group, but most are too wrapped up in their own world to really empathize with other supernaturals.

Bloodtomb

2015-06-25, 04:00 PM

Generally, if you're playing Vampire, there are sympathetic vampires, but if you're playing Werewolf, they're going to be few and far between.

What about in a crossover game where the players are both types of those Supernaturals?

Nerd-o-rama

2015-06-25, 04:12 PM

What about in a crossover game where the players are both types of those Supernaturals?

In the Old World of Darkness, to which Mark Hall was probably primarily referring, team PVP results in a bunch of dead vampires unless the threat uniting them is so great no one cares who's a good or a bad guy outside of that.

More pertinently, the point of World of Darkness seems, to me, like pointing out that these crazy movie monsters who do horrific things are all just...people. Some are decent, some are not, some actually are mindless monsters, but they all have reasons to do these things that seem terrible or insane to humans, even if that reason is "atavastic murder impulse that's the only thing keeping their corpse moving".

Anonymouswizard

2015-06-25, 04:16 PM

Both? In Masquerade most vampires aren't sympathetic, but they aren't so rare that you couldn't walk into an anarch meeting and find none. It's just they aren't the ones who commonly survive to ancilla or elder ages.

EDIT: the people thing is important. A nice thing to note about Masquerade is that part of the loathing of Caitiff is because they are apparently a sign of Gehenna, but it's also because they are different.

LibraryOgre

2015-06-25, 05:12 PM

What about in a crossover game where the players are both types of those Supernaturals?

Then everyone can be sympathetic. Basically, the average X isn't terribly sympathetic outside of their group. Werewolves are crazy religious nut eco-warriors. Mages are crazy people who make reality all bendy. Vampires are nihilistic narcissists who are convinced they know more than everyone. Changelings are crazy people who see things. While you might encounter an individual who is sympathetic, the average individual is so wrapped up in the world of their own interests that you're an annoyance.

In the Old World of Darkness, to which Mark Hall was probably primarily referring, team PVP results in a bunch of dead vampires unless the threat uniting them is so great no one cares who's a good or a bad guy outside of that.

I have had a vampire who successfully took on a single werewolf. I happened to be a knife specialist Brujah with a silver dagger, Celerity, Potence, and a particularly broken rule regarding knives getting multiple attacks. I did something like 4 attacks before he could change to attack me, all at 1-4+1 in unsoakable damage.

Had he not been so busy eating the rest of my group, I would've been killed.

Closet_Skeleton

2015-06-25, 07:09 PM

Sympathy rests with you, not the target. One can be sympathetic towards a monster if one has it in one. Or at least manage pity, which can blur into sympathy at times.

More pertinently, the point of World of Darkness seems, to me, like pointing out that these crazy movie monsters who do horrific things are all just...people.

People in a very specific circumstance.

Bloodtomb

2015-06-25, 07:48 PM

Both? In Masquerade most vampires aren't sympathetic, but they aren't so rare that you couldn't walk into an anarch meeting and find none. It's just they aren't the ones who commonly survive to ancilla or elder ages.

So you're saying that sympathetic Vampires don't make it up to ancilla and elder stages? I guess in order to stay 'sympathetic' I guess Final Death is inevitable either way and if this is the case then I see no point of playing Vampire then which is pretty akin to creating a Vampire just to commit suicide.

Hopefully I'm wrong though and making up to ancilla/elder ages doesn't require committing atrocities that would make your character a irredeemable monster.

Bloodtomb

2015-06-25, 10:18 PM

Here's a character concept I've been thinking about recently for those who read "Hunters Hunted", which could be a PC or a NPC which I've been thinking about what if there's a Vampire Hunter whose idea is that "In order to fight the monsters has to become the monster themselves" and willingly embrace themselves which they continue in their Hunt but this time they have disciplines in their disposal and plus what if they discover Diablerie? I could imagine they can diablerize every Elder they kill.

Also what clan would this hypothetical character be embraced in? Could they be a Assamite following the Path of Blood perhaps? Or something else? Although I wonder if such a character like this already exists in some form or another?

Kyuu Himura

2015-06-25, 10:48 PM

Assamite is the best option, what with them hating every other vampire, if not, then Gangrel seems like your only other choice, since they are loners.

Talakeal

2015-06-25, 11:23 PM

It could happen, but it would require some strange circumstances. Remember, to become embraced you need to be entirely drained of blood and then have fresh vampire blood poured into you. It would be VERY hard to arrange this without a willing (and very loyal / trusting) vampire helping you out. It is likely that the vampire in question is going to want quite a bit in return and I imagine that you would probably end up as an assassin of some sort taking out your sire's enemies.

Also, the blood bond is a bitch. How do you plan on feeding?

Anonymouswizard

2015-06-26, 01:41 AM

McStabbington

2015-06-26, 01:54 AM

So you're saying that sympathetic Vampires don't make it up to ancilla and elder stages? I guess in order to stay 'sympathetic' I guess Final Death is inevitable either way and if this is the case then I see no point of playing Vampire then which is pretty akin to creating a Vampire just to commit suicide.

Hopefully I'm wrong though and making up to ancilla/elder ages doesn't require committing atrocities that would make your character a irredeemable monster.

Most certainly not. Vampires that are generally sympathetic and caring are rare at any age beyond fledgling, but they're hardly unknown. In point of fact, some of the most famous and powerful vampires active in the Final Nights are vamps that have held on to their humanity quite well despite being thousands of years old. Durga Syn comes to mind.

The thing to remember isn't that sympathy is impossible in the WoD. It's just really blooming hard. Every time you feed, you're violating a human and risking a murder. Animal blood can keep you, but it's generally got nothing on human blood (consider the difference between drinking from a puddle and drinking a root beer float while also getting an orgasm and you get the general idea) and unless you stick with it and keep your Humanity high, it's going to stop working completely once you hit about 200 years. And unless you isolate yourself from the larger Kindred community, all of your peers are going to be sliding and dragging you along with them.

Do vampires still manage despite the pressure? They can and they do. It's just uncommon for them to expend the effort necessary to do so when it's so much easier to go along with the flow.

Mechanically, btw, you're talking about vampires that are on one of three Roads: Humanity and some of the more humane followers of the Roads of Heaven and Chivalry. And those Roads need to be maintained at least at 7, usually 8 or higher. Anyone who has replaced Conscience with Conviction or Self Control with Instinct by definition is not bound by human morality, and will come across to the average human as an utter monster.

Anonymouswizard

2015-06-26, 03:05 AM

The answer to 'could it happen' is yes.

The answer to would it happen is lost in all my laughter.

Unless the sire is Caitiff. A Caitiff likely doesn't know that their childer will be weaker than them, and they won't realise that thin bloods are a sign of Gehenna.

A_Man

2015-06-26, 03:12 AM

In Game lore (at least with cWoD), Dracula forced his sire to make him a vampire, but that tale is really sketchy. It's more likely that the incredibely powerful 4th gen vampire made a massive plot.

Which is how I'd probably do it for your n/pc. Gen X vamp acts like it's eing forced to do it, and then manipulate the chatacter from behind the scene. (Or ride in your PC if he diaberizes it, depending on generation).

Another, more likely, less evil vamp manipulaty, is becoming an independent ghoul. Weaker then a vamp, but can act in the daytime, so he'll be able to daylight slay vampires, and then drink their blood. He'll need blood packs, lots of them tho, and to never drink from the same, unliving target, more then twice, and make sure to drink at least once a month.

Rater202

2015-06-26, 03:38 AM

Closet_Skeleton

2015-06-26, 03:53 AM

Assamite is the best option, what with them hating every other vampire, if not, then Gangrel seems like your only other choice, since they are loners.

Doesn't the Sabbat sometime just embrace a bunch of cannon fodder? Shouldn't be too hard to worm your way into that. Just incredibly dangerous and stupid.

If a Vampire Hunter in OWoD wants to become a monster to kill vampires, becoming a vampire shouldn't be his first choice.

TheCountAlucard

2015-06-26, 04:55 AM

Sympathetic humans seldom make it to 2,000 years of age. If you're born a sympathetic human you're going to die; being born is setting yourself on the path to death, it might as well be suicide. :smalltongue:

Tongue firmly in cheek there.

comicshorse

2015-06-26, 05:22 AM

In one of the Assamite clan books there's an archetype kinda like this. Someone who was being hunted by a Vampire and destroyed it and so was offered the Embrace by the Assamites and the chance to hunt down those Vampires who murdered and oppressed Humanity (unlike the Noble Sons of Haquim of course !)
I'd only see this working, especially if you want to go with Diablerie with the Assamites

LibraryOgre

2015-06-26, 08:52 AM

I could see a Gangrel or Caitiff doing it, but it also wouldn't be out of place for a Brujah to decide "Screw this, I'm going to get back at those bastards." Or "It's fun and worthwhile to fight these guys, unlike puny humans."

LibraryOgre

2015-06-26, 08:57 AM

Eventually, you're not going to care about the faceless masses-as long as you do right buy the big people, you can sleep easy at day. Living in the WoD can do that to you.

Doyle: Left you with a bit of craving, didn't it? Let me tell you something, pal, that craving's gonna grow. And one day soon, one of those helpless victims that you don't really care about is gonna look way too appetizing to turn down. And you'll figure, "Hey, what's one against all I've saved? Might as well eat them. Still ahead by the numbers".

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2015-06-26, 08:58 AM

Yeah, I'd say that all splats have the POSSIBILITY of being Sympathetic. Some, like Vampire, have it harder than others, but that's because one of the main themes of Vampire is the personal horror of finding yourself a monster, and how you deal with the fact that you hurt people to survive, and may even kill people to survive. But even in that, a sympathetic character may give back to society in other ways.

In nWoD 2.0, I can easily imagine a character who's Dirge is Tyrant, but who's Masque is Altruist, with a Touchstone as the orphanage where she was brought up. Secretly, this vampire channels a lot of her ill-got money towards this orphanage, and has an almost maternal relationship with the kids (albeit from afar, although she can't resist checking up on them from time to time). Yet to her compatriots in the All Nights Society, she's simply the feared Invictus Sheriff, known for leaving those who trespass on the laws chained up in strange basements, with all of their lives (and unlives) work confiscated.

Is this character sympathetic? Depends on who you ask. If the players don't go digging into her life, they see only a brutal monster. Perhaps they seek to take her down, and in the process discover the orphanage. Then the players themselves have a choice to make: are they brutal monsters who would burn down an orphanage to draw out their enemy, or are they sympathetic characters who rethink their perception of the Sheriff.

sktarq

2015-06-28, 01:35 PM

Sure it is possible but the questions of "why" for the sire are just as important if not more so.

My personal take-someone who lost a lot in the Jyhad recently -perhaps a sire or mentor that he was blood bound to. . . Something that drives a "pox on all your houses" feeling.

Also played a game based on this in a somewhat similar vein. Brood attacked city (sub Sabbat in VtM) causing masquerade breakdown. Coterie started as vampire hunters from this. After attack repelled coterie kept at it-was eventually embraced as sheriffs as a way of rewarding him while limiting his actual power-plus set us up from crime of the week/month missions

Bloodtomb

2015-06-29, 12:39 AM

There's also the issue of Vampires tending to et jaded, out of touch, and or less sane, as they get older.

Eventually, you're not going to care about the faceless masses-as long as you do right buy the big people, you can sleep easy at day. Living in the WoD can do that to you.

There also the issue of time-and how vampires don't often change with it.

Vampires don't change with the times, and things that were perfectly legal 100 years ago are considered abhorrent now, and vice versa.

So the elders are innately skewed in what is and isn't moral or ethical by modern standards, even before you add loss of humanity and just getting jaded

Well if this applies to all Vampires, then it's more reason to stay not immortal and might as well commit suicide or not even play Vampire at all.

Which infact this is also one of the biggest problems I have VtM especially it's personal horror theme which causes alot of problems. I wonder if anything can be changed to have even the possibility of Vampires changing with the times? Another thing I don't like how Vampires are presented in VtM is that they're 'static' and plus they can't create anything new and such.

Most certainly not. Vampires that are generally sympathetic and caring are rare at any age beyond fledgling, but they're hardly unknown. In point of fact, some of the most famous and powerful vampires active in the Final Nights are vamps that have held on to their humanity quite well despite being thousands of years old. Durga Syn comes to mind.

The thing to remember isn't that sympathy is impossible in the WoD. It's just really blooming hard. Every time you feed, you're violating a human and risking a murder. Animal blood can keep you, but it's generally got nothing on human blood (consider the difference between drinking from a puddle and drinking a root beer float while also getting an orgasm and you get the general idea) and unless you stick with it and keep your Humanity high, it's going to stop working completely once you hit about 200 years. And unless you isolate yourself from the larger Kindred community, all of your peers are going to be sliding and dragging you along with them.

Do vampires still manage despite the pressure? They can and they do. It's just uncommon for them to expend the effort necessary to do so when it's so much easier to go along with the flow.

Mechanically, btw, you're talking about vampires that are on one of three Roads: Humanity and some of the more humane followers of the Roads of Heaven and Chivalry. And those Roads need to be maintained at least at 7, usually 8 or higher. Anyone who has replaced Conscience with Conviction or Self Control with Instinct by definition is not bound by human morality, and will come across to the average human as an utter monster.

That's one of the examples I'm pointing out as well, I guess you're saying that in order to remain 'sympathetic' you must maintain some high humanity which is following some rigorous christian morality there which also highlights the biggest problems with the humanity/beast system. Although with the whole 'risking a murder' 'hurting people to survive', well can it be depending who you are 'hurting'? Well maybe you all keep forgetting the fact Vampires can feed on blood without killing their human 'blood donors' or if they really want to drain someone dry and kill, they could do it human enemies or oppressive authority figures? Although I play it this way when I play VtM: Bloodlines though...

But then again though...there's also the pesky beast/frenzy which I wonder this is the core of what makes Kindred truly unsympathetic? If so then I think it only highlights the biggest problems of VtM which maybe removing them would solve the issue.

Although my idea of Vampirism should be transhumanist or serve as a alternative to our oppressive human society at least it should serve as that metaphor.

Rater202

2015-06-29, 12:42 AM

It doen'st apply to all Vampires.

Just to elders.

Bloodtomb

2015-06-29, 12:59 AM

Just to elders.

Eventually all Vampires become Elders don't they? Which is what I'm trying to explain why it's rather pointless to have your Vampire character survive that long (when you're playing a Dark Ages to Modern transition that is) or let alone playing it at all.

Therefore it truly does apply to all Vampires eventually hence it's meaningless and pointless to play.

Rater202

2015-06-29, 01:13 AM

Anonymouswizard

2015-06-29, 02:25 AM

Which infact this is also one of the biggest problems I have VtM especially it's personal horror theme which causes alot of problems. I wonder if anything can be changed to have even the possibility of Vampires changing with the times? Another thing I don't like how Vampires are presented in VtM is that they're 'static' and plus they can't create anything new and such.

I like to think of it more as what you are in the dark, as with the right disciplines you can make people not know, not care, or unable to take you to account for your actions.

And yeah, the first thing I do is replace the lack of creativity with a tendency to wait things out.

Although with the whole 'risking a murder' 'hurting people to survive', well can it be depending who you are 'hurting'?

Say hello to Malcolm. He's moral as he only feeds from drug dealers.

This is why I like the Ventrue weakness, as it begins to remove that choice.

Well maybe you all keep forgetting the fact Vampires can feed on blood without killing their human 'blood donors' or if they really want to drain someone dry and kill, they could do it human enemies or oppressive authority figures?

It depends on feeding method, take blood quickly and you'll always hurt them, take it slowly and don't take too much. The problem comes when hungry vampires have low self control.

Bloodtomb

2015-06-29, 09:48 AM

Young Vampires can change things.

Just have to get rid of the elders.

Furthermore, not every game is going to have the PCs progress to elder status.

I imagine very few do.

Furthermore, it doen'st apply to all elders, merely the majority.

Meaning it's not pointless to play the game.

It wasn't pointless in the first place, because there are people who think game's like vampire are fun.

And having fun is the point of a game.

Well if not every game is going to have PCs progress into Elder status, that means that they pretty much have to die hence it's pointless to play.

Maybe I'm making a wrong assumption that "Elder Vampires" simply mean Vampires who lived passed 300 years but there's something more to it?

Maybe I thought Vampires who don't have domains/etc and who are 'active' (which tend to move about in the world) tend to change with the times while Vampires who cut themselves off in their own domains are static and jaded.

Basically I don't think the 'immortality' feature should go to waste if it only makes your Vampire character being antagonist fodder.

I like to think of it more as what you are in the dark, as with the right disciplines you can make people not know, not care, or unable to take you to account for your actions.

And yeah, the first thing I do is replace the lack of creativity with a tendency to wait things out.

Say hello to Malcolm. He's moral as he only feeds from drug dealers.

This is why I like the Ventrue weakness, as it begins to remove that choice.

It depends on feeding method, take blood quickly and you'll always hurt them, take it slowly and don't take too much. The problem comes when hungry vampires have low self control.

I don't think I would want to be restricted to the Ventrue Clan and their weakness though.

Of course the "Low Self Control" only highlights the biggest problem with the beast/frenzy system.

Bloodtomb

2015-06-29, 09:51 AM

double post sorry

Rater202

2015-06-29, 10:45 AM

Well if not every game is going to have PCs progress into Elder status, that means that they pretty much have to die hence it's pointless to play.

You are ware that the game ends when the group finishes the story they want to tell, yes? Not when Everybody's character dies.

Most games will complete the story well before the Pcs become elders.

Even a game where the PCs are doomed to die isn't pointless, because those games can still be fun for some people.

LibraryOgre

2015-06-29, 11:01 AM

Maybe I'm making a wrong assumption that "Elder Vampires" simply mean Vampires who lived passed 300 years but there's something more to it?

Elder can also refer to those vampires of extremely low generation. While you might be a fresh-created 8th generation vampire (straight out of character creation), most 8th and lower generation vampires are decades, if not centuries, old.

Bloodtomb

2015-06-29, 11:09 AM

You are ware that the game ends when the group finishes the story they want to tell, yes? Not when Everybody's character dies.

Most games will complete the story well before the Pcs become elders.

Even a game where the PCs are doomed to die isn't pointless, because those games can still be fun for some people.

Well thing is though, when you say things like "They have to get rid of the Elders" it also means that eventually the PCs will become the very thing they tried to get rid of to make way of new Vampires trying to get rid of them as if it's a never ending cycle hence I kinda find that entire premise pointless after all.

Nor do I want to play a character who is doomed to die as well which all of it makes the immortality feature not worth it after all. It's also why I don't like ToJ settings especially Gehenna which not only enforces it but also removes agency of your character as well, not to mention even the entire Noddest/Generation system is also enables things like Gehenna.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2015-06-29, 11:19 AM

Rater202

2015-06-29, 11:23 AM

Well thing is though, when you say things like "They have to get rid of the Elders" it also means that eventually the PCs will become the very thing they tried to get rid of to make way of new Vampires trying to get rid of them as if it's a never ending cycle hence I kinda find that entire premise pointless after all.

Nor do I want to play a character who is doomed to die as well which all of it makes the immortality feature not worth it after all. It's also why I don't like ToJ settings especially Gehenna which not only enforces it but also removes agency of your character as well, not to mention even the entire Noddest/Generation system is also enables things like Gehenna.

I think you are reading too much into my answers.

Bloodtomb

2015-06-29, 11:49 AM

You want substabtative change. One of the main themes or vampire is the idea of stasis, that vampires get "stuck". Part of the "buy-in" of the game that it asks you to accept is that stories of failure are just as interesting as stories of world changing success. This is especially the case in Vampire the Requiem 2.0, in which the rules reward certain types of failure, as you aren't the character, you're controlling the characters story.

It's all about what creates an interesting story. And the motif of the revolution which changes nothing is a classic story to riff off of.

I guess it explains alot though but maybe I would think that the character would have more agency that if you are the character though although I could be wrong.

Also the whole motif of the 'revolution changes nothing' is a rather tiresome cliche story to me and if the game asks me to accept failure, then why tell it at all?

Also I'll never accept Vampire's main themes of "stasis" so....

If you can't accept that buy - in, then it is quite likely that Vampire just simply isn't a game or a theme for you. And that's also OK.

I guess I don't accept the buy and Vampire may not be a game or a theme for me but I still want to play as a Vampire though.....

If you understand what I mean I guess there's a reason why I created a thread like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?422070-cWoD-Alternatives-to-%28Cainite%29-Vampires) since I don't think I want to play as other supernaturals (Although Risen, DA: Fae and Mage might be the closest though maybe...) and there should be other options available or at least resorting to home brewing creating my own Vampire splat that fits what I want since apparently Kindred/Cainite style Vampires are out of the question and might as well look for other alternatives that is like a Vampire perhaps.

Maybe might as well play as a another supernatural who 'pretends' to be a Vampire or accept "Vampire" as a organic definition that could describe anything that sucks blood to survive or preserve their immorality.

LibraryOgre

2015-06-29, 12:01 PM

Keep in mind that Vampire very much codified the modern gaming idea of "You are not your race." How YOU play a vampire is how you play a vampire... but you're going to be stuck in the social environment described by the game, for better or for worse.

So, let's say you want to play a young, reforming vampire. One who thinks they can make the world a better place. You make that vampire. Give him strong Self-Control stat so most of the problems of the Beast are gone for you. Give him a high humanity and willpower, and have him wanting to change Kindred society... but realize you're going to be fighting against the grain.

Bloodtomb

2015-06-29, 12:17 PM

LibraryOgre

2015-06-29, 12:29 PM

Actually first of all I would play a female character first of all...

Or maybe I could say "**** Kindred society" and maybe interfere with Mage politics or just trying to survive and take everything that comes in their way sort of.

Sure. There's nothing inherently wrong with decided "**** kindred society" and buggering off on your own... but keep in mind that Kindred society might not be willing to let you go. So long as you don't step on any toes, you're going to be fine.

I played a character once who was very much that. Blood-trash brujah, 14th generation. Didn't want to get involved in politics, fed off drug dealers and sold their stuff for rent money. However, there was an ambitious Brujah who got made Primogen and started to drag other Brujah into his net... my PC included. Without a sufficiently powerful protector, you're kinda stuck dealing with kindred politics.

A not-bad option to write something like this? Someone who was once part of a group, then got Embraced. A young mage who got embraced by a Tremere, losing his Gift but becoming a vampire. He's still got his Chantry around, and he's useful because of his immunity to paradox, but he's not really himself... and the vampires are still looking for him. It becomes a story arc for a character in an otherwise Mage chronicle.

Anonymouswizard

2015-06-29, 12:48 PM

Actually first of all I would play a female character first of all...

Or maybe I could say "**** Kindred society" and maybe interfere with Mage politics or just trying to survive and take everything that comes in their way sort of.

Bare in mind that lots of supernaturals are either not fond of kindred, likely to use you towards your own ends, or want to study you so they can discover why you don't just pop into a paradox realm. Mages are likely more interested in why vampires are immune to paradox than dealing with them normally, and you would likely be no more than a lab assistant, with no interaction with the actual politics. At best an ex-mage might be shuffled around to various mages trying to work out paradox free immortality with an Avatar, or ignored and left to play with vampires like himself.

Striking out on your own has the big problem of trying to find an area with no other Cainites, a human population, and no lupines. But it can be done.

Nerd-o-rama

2015-06-29, 02:08 PM

I'm not really clear on what you're asking for in this thread anymore, Bloodtomb. Are you asking if you "have" to play a Vampire a certain way (that you don't think you'll enjoy?) Because if that's what you're asking, the answer is emphatically no. Vampires are people in, as we said, a specific set of circumstances, both in terms of physical needs/compulsions and social expectations. You're not obligated to play a heartless bastard, but being a heartless bastard is the easy, expected way for a character to prolong their unlife. Your character can be morally better than that, it's just that, as is the case with humans, it makes things harder. A great deal harder, if they come to the attention of a heartless bastard who's more powerful than they are, but that's where the conflict of the story can come from, and there is no story without some kind of conflict.

Are you looking at playing Vampire the Masquerade? Requiem? Have you talked to a GM/Storyteller about playing in their game and the tone and expectations of their campaign/Chronicle? Or are you just kind of trying to theorycraft what kind of character you can/want to play?

Bloodtomb

2015-06-29, 03:21 PM

You're not obligated to play a heartless bastard, but being a heartless bastard is the easy, expected way for a character to prolong their unlife. Your character can be morally better than that, it's just that, as is the case with humans, it makes things harder. A great deal harder, if they come to the attention of a heartless bastard who's more powerful than they are, but that's where the conflict of the story can come from, and there is no story without some kind of conflict.

Therefore it seems you have no choice but to play as a heartless bastard in the end just to prolong your unlife which would be harder if not impossible to be otherwise which is where I find pointless.

Are you looking at playing Vampire the Masquerade? Requiem? Have you talked to a GM/Storyteller about playing in their game and the tone and expectations of their campaign/Chronicle? Or are you just kind of trying to theorycraft what kind of character you can/want to play?

Well I'm looking at Masquerade since I find Requiem to be much worse by comparison first of all.

Rater202

2015-06-29, 03:28 PM

Therefore it seems you have no choice but to play as a heartless bastard in the end just to prolong your unlife which would be harder if not impossible to be otherwise which is where I find pointless. You are confusing difficulty with pointlessness.

Well I'm looking at Masquerade since I find Requiem to be much worse by comparison first of all.

This statement does not mesh with your earlier complaints. Please explain.

Nerd-o-rama

2015-06-29, 09:32 PM

Therefore it seems you have no choice but to play as a heartless bastard in the end just to prolong your unlife which would be harder if not impossible to be otherwise which is where I find pointless.

Well, I mean, if your character's only goal is to prolong his own existence, what IS the point of anything else? That's the same as a human whose only goal is to live as long as possible and just lives in a bubble eating fish and rice every day. That's honestly rather dull, so most people have other goals and priorities.

Ravian

2015-06-29, 11:02 PM

Therefore it seems you have no choice but to play as a heartless bastard in the end just to prolong your unlife which would be harder if not impossible to be otherwise which is where I find pointless.

Not every vampire enjoys having to suck blood (I'm sure that plenty of them would jump for it if a cure was available, even though it meant sacrificing their immortality and all their cool powers.)

However not every one of them is a heartless bastard just because they don't kill themselves or subsist entirely on animal blood.

Yes draining humans is harmful, if you're not careful it's even fatal, but a vampire can attempt to do good regardless. They might have a stable group of blood dolls, all of whom are voluntary members. (the kiss is pretty awesome all things considered. One could argue that this is immoral since they're only sticking around because of the pleasure. But that's like saying that a friend-with-benefits relationship is immoral because the two are primarily interested in the sex.)

Heck for the most part your typical blood-bag will simply be a little woozy and anemic the day after (unless the vampire caught a blood-transmitted disease, but that's an exception rather than the rule.)

From there, just think of all that can be accomplished through immortality. Plenty of vampires play their politiks, but there's plenty else you could accomplish. Yes vampires tend to be more static than humans, but that's not a hard fact, particularly considering how many cities owe so much to vampiric involvement (Carthage, Rome, and Constantinople just off the top of my head. All three did fall eventually in the vampiric eye, but for the mortals involved, each probably made a huge improvement on society.)

----

There seems to be a fundamental disconnect between your expectations of the game and the game's stated goals. No sane person wants to be a vampire, it sucks (pardon the pun) you're cursed to never see the sun again and more than likely you'll end up killing people to survive. Anyone who actively desired the embrace is likely messed up on some level.

Still, if I was embraced, there's no way I'd "wait for dawn" unless truly desperate. Simply because there remains the possibility to make something more out of my existence than simply killing myself. That and the simple fact that death is scary, and brushing so close to it would be unlikely to change my feelings on it.

This is all part of the point of personal horror. Vampires are trapped in a cursed state that requires sacrifice to maintain. By all rights many might try and end it. But vampires still being human, most will continue living. The horror thus comes from the idea of how much of their humanity they will sacrifice in order to survive.

---

One developer of Promethean mentioned that every game requires a buy-in. A buy-in is something that the player must accept in order to enjoy the game. Promethean requires the buy-in that becoming human is a worthwhile goal. D&D requires the buy-in that it is worth risking your life adventuring rather than staying home in your hobbit hole.

Vampire requires the buy-in that life, even a cursed life, is preferable to death, whether because of some high-minded goal or ideal, or simply due to fear of what awaits one in death. A PC that doesn't accept this buy-in simply commits suicide and the game ends, just like the Hobbit would end then and there if Bilbo decides he's not going on an adventure with the Dwarves and Gandalf.

However a buy-in doesn't require a real-world buy-in as well. Personally I think something like adventuring is a great way to get yourself killed rather quickly, and were I playing myself in a D&D game I would probably simply find a quiet job where I didn't risk my life. However I am willing to accept the buy-in for my character, who is likely to be one of those dare-devils that enjoys risking life and limb for treasure and glory, simply because I can separate my sensibilities from my character's for a bit of fun role-playing.

I've played a Tremere who's about the biggest toady for his chantry as you've ever seen. He's not heartless and does a little good where he can, but when the council says jump, he asks how high before beginning work on a spell that will let him defy gravity. Betrayel, murder, all sorts of unsavory acts worked fine for him, so long as he can learn some new Thaumaturgy. Truthfully I find him morally repugnant, but that doesn't mean it's not fun sometimes to play a bastard.

If it's really don't want to play a morally ambiguous vampire that's your choice and I won't fault you for it. But the game largely requires some small degree of moral ambiguity as its buy-in, so one shouldn't expect it to bend over backwards for every sensibility.

Sith_Happens

2015-06-30, 01:02 AM

Truthfully I find him morally repugnant, but that doesn't mean it's not fun sometimes to play a bastard.

Amen.

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140302230327/cardfight/images/1/1a/Come_to_the_DarkSide_cookies.jpg

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2015-06-30, 07:42 AM

I think that's a good point. Literally all normal role-playing characters will die eventually, or will turn into heartless evil characters to secure their immortality. Does that make their story useless? If their only goal is to live forever, maybe. But if their goal is to stop the evil necromancer in his tower from destroying the world (and in the process secretly steal his research notes?), then that's interesting, and has a point, to me I guess.

Likewise, Jackie the Daeva fledgling probably, by the numbers, won't make it past her first half-century of un-life. Yet she has made it her (un-)lifes work to uncover the secret plot her Sire has laid to enact a horrible ritual; she doesn't know yet what it will even do. In doing so, she will infiltrate the Circle of the Crone for her Carthian allies. It may be useless for her, even if she succeeds, she would have made herself an outcast, but it's a damn good story, a classic save-the-world-from-an-evil-villain story, and she would have certainly changed the future of the city, at the very least.

Bloodtomb

2015-06-30, 09:57 AM

I think that's a good point. Literally all normal role-playing characters will die eventually, or will turn into heartless evil characters to secure their immortality. Does that make their story useless?

Yes it does sadly anough.

I think there should be other alternative reasons or methods to preserve your immortality which you might have a focused goal, simply you want to live the long as you can because the fear of death (especially if Vampires have Wraith knowledge and what happens to them or how worse off they have it...), or maybe if they live long anough they have anough wisdom to guide others, or maybe all the above. I don't think being a heartless evil character should be required (then again though, it depends on what you define "evil" to be especially...).

There seems to be a fundamental disconnect between your expectations of the game and the game's stated goals. No sane person wants to be a vampire, it sucks (pardon the pun) you're cursed to never see the sun again and more than likely you'll end up killing people to survive. Anyone who actively desired the embrace is likely messed up on some level.

Still, if I was embraced, there's no way I'd "wait for dawn" unless truly desperate. Simply because there remains the possibility to make something more out of my existence than simply killing myself. That and the simple fact that death is scary, and brushing so close to it would be unlikely to change my feelings on it.

This is all part of the point of personal horror. Vampires are trapped in a cursed state that requires sacrifice to maintain. By all rights many might try and end it. But vampires still being human, most will continue living. The horror thus comes from the idea of how much of their humanity they will sacrifice in order to survive.

Then again, there's alot of practical reasons to be a Vampire because of immortality (since I notice other supernaturals don't have it and Mages have to go to some Horizon Realm, although I would really wish to port DA: Fae into the modern era though because the Fae really are immortal than Dreaming Changelings who keep reincarnating) but according to your logic though it seems that every Vampire when they were mortals were messed up in some way which I guess it makes Vampires unsympathetic irredeemable Always Chaotic Evil monsters from the get go anyways which I guess it's safe to say to stake them especially killing them without remorse. I'm sorry but due to all the posts here I'm only given more reasons to reject VtM/VtR Vampires or rather they're a major turn off for me.

Well especially VtM's lore of Vampires burning in sunlight, well if you apply the "Our Vampires are Different" trope, the entire thing comes from F. W. Murnau's Nosferatu which is more of a recent invention which I would rather prefer Vampires being able to walk in the day but except their disciplines are weakened like Dracula or Arabic Vampires are active during the day but sleep during night time due to cultural differences. I guess VtM doesn't support this view which is one of my main problems with it.

Also the killing to survive thing also plays into the beast/frenzy/humanity/path of enlightenment system which is another thing I don't like about VtM either which I think I've already covered that Vampires can feed without killing or the only ones they kill/drain are their human enemies in combat but then again the whole "low self control thing" plays into the beast/frenzy which interferes with that.

Above all else, I never liked Vampire's personal horror theme at all.

Closet_Skeleton

2015-06-30, 12:56 PM

I think there should be other alternative reasons or methods to preserve your immortality which you might have a focused goal, simply you want to live the long as you can because the fear of death (especially if Vampires have Wraith knowledge and what happens to them or how worse off they have it...), or maybe if they live long anough they have anough wisdom to guide others, or maybe all the above. I don't think being a heartless evil character should be required (then again though, it depends on what you define "evil" to be especially...).

Why should the setting care about any individuals desire for a safe, non-evil path to immortality?

Well especially VtM's lore of Vampires burning in sunlight, well if you apply the "Our Vampires are Different" trope, the entire thing comes from F. W. Murnau's Nosferatu which is more of a recent invention which I would rather prefer Vampires being able to walk in the day but except their disciplines are weakened like Dracula or Arabic Vampires are active during the day but sleep during night time due to cultural differences.

Pretty much everything about vampires is barely older than Murnau.

Before Sheridan le Fanu vampires weren't even immortal. The modern vampire is entirely a creation of Victorian English writers who didn't know anything about vampires creating splicing a few central European details onto a Chinese whispers monster with local British fairie and witch lore acting as the frog DNA (in the jurassic park sense).

A traditional Balkan vampire:

Comes in two forms, either a corpse or a living human being. Corpse vampires eventually resurrect into the latter type, which can take either a few years or days depending on the local tradition.

A corpse vampire does not decay, it can appear in dreams and usually kills livestock and causes sickness. Its active at night but isn't hurt by it.

A living vampire may be identical to a normal human for most of the time and turn into a vampire every so often (usually once a month).

A living vampire ages and eats normal human food. They are also fertile. Sometimes they were allowed back into the community and were just considered to be normal humans, sometimes they were killed as witches. We have court records of living people being tried as vampires, "I have grey hairs and wrinkles" was not an alibi.

Need not drink blood. This aspect isn't even present in some versions of the legend. Other times they eat a little blood but mostly milk and excrement.

A living vampire is basically a subtype of witch and will often have magical powers like shapeshifting (wolf or pig form being common but bat, cat and rat forms are I think also allowed). Werewolves, witches and vampires are not distinct categories in folklore, many local words
for vampire in the Balkans are old words for werewolf re-used.

A creation of the 16th and 17th centuries. There's no such thing as timeless mythology. Modern folklore has cross-fertilised with popular culture so the 'original' vampire myth no longer exists.

Be part of a religious culture and have lots of other connotations I can't go into here.

Nerd-o-rama

2015-06-30, 01:45 PM

Above all else, I never liked Vampire's personal horror theme at all.

So...don't play it?

Really though, I think fundamentally you could say that Vampire is a game about choices, which is why VtM established the tradition of a "morality meter" that's carried forward into every other World of Darkness game. No one chooses to become a vampire, which is part of the tragedy, but it's their decisions after that happens that define the game: do you play the game of Jyhad/Dance Macabre? If you do, do you play to win, or just to survive? If you don't, how do you fit into the ugly edifice of vampire culture? How far will you go to stay safe? How far will you go to stay human? Will you treat other vampires as a threat? Friends? Subjects? Will you listen to your Beast, or try to drown it out? Will you change and grow with the world, or will you stagnate in the habits of years, decades, and centuries?

It's those choices, and the difficulty of managing all of them, that defines "personal horror", I guess.

Anonymouswizard

2015-06-30, 01:45 PM

In real life, the separation between the modern vampire and the English revenant is, questionable. I believe the revenant did not sire offspring or burn up it sunlight, although I may be wrong on the former, and they were known to drink blood. Or eat flesh, the details I know aren't specific beyond consumption, I think both?

EDIT: for "Vampire is about choices', this begins at deciding if you chose this or were taken, continues with will you take the easy way or struggle to remain moral, and continues past the point you decide what ethics you will dedicate your life to (path/road). The paths actually make it easy to explore choice, because you can choose to abandon humanity.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2015-06-30, 01:57 PM

Nerd-o-rama

2015-06-30, 02:05 PM

EDIT: for "Vampire is about choices', this begins at deciding if you chose this or were taken, continues with will you take the easy way or struggle to remain moral, and continues past the point you decide what ethics you will dedicate your life to (path/road). The paths actually make it easy to explore choice, because you can choose to abandon humanity.

Paths are actually probably my least favorite thing about VtM (other than the existence of a metaplot) because they kind of seem like cheating your way out of the Man vs. Beast conflict. However, making the choice to go down one of those alternate paths is its own choice, and when we're talking about undying superhumans it stands to reason they can align their consciences to something different from human morality if they so choose.

So yeah, while I kind of forgot about them, they definitely go along with the whole choice thing.

Bloodtomb

2015-06-30, 02:29 PM

So the only story worth playing is one in which virtuous characters achieve immortality? What games do you want to play then? That might be a better place to start. It sounds to me like it may be best for you to simply jettison all vampire lore and build your own vampire game from the bottom up, to be honest.

Edit: what I mean is, as far as I can tell, you want to play a traditional adventure game of good versus evil where good happens to be immortal without all the baggage that comes with modern conceptions of vampire. No modern vampire game I know of fits that criteria.

I think you maybe reading things wrong here since I don't think I want a "Good vs Evil" morality but rather Grey and Grey.

I think basically what I'm aiming for is anti-heroes with fangs basically or basically present Vampires (and other supernaturals) as misunderstood individuals which humanity would only see them as monsters but a Vampire is just like any human being only undead who require blood to preserve their immortality (well since they need life that is not theirs to continue existing in our world) and fuel their disciplines, not monstrous predators.

Also terms like "Vice" and "Virtues" are subjective as well which I never care for those.

So...don't play it?

What other alternative can be offered then?

Really though, I think fundamentally you could say that Vampire is a game about choices, which is why VtM established the tradition of a "morality meter" that's carried forward into every other World of Darkness game. No one chooses to become a vampire, which is part of the tragedy, but it's their decisions after that happens that define the game: do you play the game of Jyhad/Dance Macabre? If you do, do you play to win, or just to survive? If you don't, how do you fit into the ugly edifice of vampire culture? How far will you go to stay safe? How far will you go to stay human? Will you treat other vampires as a threat? Friends? Subjects? Will you listen to your Beast, or try to drown it out? Will you change and grow with the world, or will you stagnate in the habits of years, decades, and centuries?

Of course what about being embraced via a emergency which your sire happens to be your friend you used to hang out with during when you were mortal or maybe you ask them to sire you? Plus I will not play the game of Jyhad/Dance Macabre. Also as for other Vampires, it depends who are they I guess since I think I would only be friends with ones who are compatible with the PC character and plus I would try to draw out the beast and grow with the world.

What sort of character I would be?

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2015-06-30, 02:34 PM

Right, I see now. But you'd still want an apolitical game, though? Edit: because ignoring the beast and necessity to feed, vampires aren't monsters because they're vampires, they're monsters because survival in politics, over time, desensitizes and leads to monstrous behaviour. And "over time" for an immortal creature means dramatic change over time.

Regarding vice and virtue, you'd be pleased to know that nWoD 2.0 has vices and virtues be subjective: you can choose any adjective, and your vice may be another's virtue. Vampire specifically replaces both with Mask and Dirge, the former being your "role" amongst the kine, the latter among the kindred. They're words like "altruist" "tyrant" "follower " "maternal" or similar.

Bloodtomb

2015-06-30, 02:43 PM

Right, I see now. But you'd still want an apolitical game, though? Edit: because ignoring the beast and necessity to feed, vampires aren't monsters because they're vampires, they're monsters because survival in politics, over time, desensitizes and leads to monstrous behaviour. And "over time" for an immortal creature means dramatic change over time.

Although I wonder how to run a apolitical vampire game though especially them staying away from Vampire politics, or maybe those who are caught up with it like the protagonist from Bloodlines they can always choose the "Lone Wolf" ending which might be one way to get out of it maybe....

Or maybe the closest political things I would do is rebelling against oppression....

Anonymouswizard

2015-06-30, 02:57 PM

Paths are actually probably my least favorite thing about VtM (other than the existence of a metaplot) because they kind of seem like cheating your way out of the Man vs. Beast conflict. However, making the choice to go down one of those alternate paths is its own choice, and when we're talking about undying superhumans it stands to reason they can align their consciences to something different from human morality if they so choose.

So yeah, while I kind of forgot about them, they definitely go along with the whole choice thing.

Oh, I agree, I prefer paths like Humanity, Chivalry, Heaven, ones where you attach yourself to an ideal to avoid your descent (respectively, decentness, honour, and piety), and wish that the Road of Kings was about being a good leader rather than acquiring power. I'd like to see more of those, so the path of metamorphis requires utter dedication to improvement, the path of sin to overcoming temptation (to the point that addiction is a sin), and so on.

Bloodtomb

2015-06-30, 03:09 PM

Oh, I agree, I prefer paths like Humanity, Chivalry, Heaven, ones where you attach yourself to an ideal to avoid your descent (respectively, decentness, honour, and piety), and wish that the Road of Kings was about being a good leader rather than acquiring power. I'd like to see more of those, so the path of metamorphis requires utter dedication to improvement, the path of sin to overcoming temptation (to the point that addiction is a sin), and so on.

Well I also wonder if there's a path that is like the Kuie-Jinn's Dance of the Thrashing Dragon that follows a hedonistic lifestyle?

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2015-06-30, 03:14 PM

Anonymouswizard

2015-06-30, 03:32 PM

Well I also wonder if there's a path that is like the Kuie-Jinn's Dance of the Thrashing Dragon that follows a hedonistic lifestyle?

The idea of the Path of Sin is this without getting dependent on it, while drawing others into it. It's dedicating to sin enough that it has no holds on you.

Considering I'm already rewriting Masquerade to use Revised Storyteller I can make paths a bigger thing. Make them more of a ideal than in vanilla, including stuff like the path of integration (being a normal member of society, interacting with a sect is a sin).

Bloodtomb

2015-06-30, 03:48 PM

I was thinking more apolitical in that you rewrite the setting to lessen the emphasis on politics; make vampires more loners (fits the anti-hero theme you wants, give it a more noir theme: "We were all just normal Joes trying to make a living; a little harder when you make a living by sinking your fangs into some poor flatfoot's neck. But hey, that's unlife, ain't it? And when you have REAL Shark's like Vinny swimming in this pool, a little less... thoughtful about where their marks end up after their done, well, what's a few dizzy poor sods if their sickness saves a life?"

You can do that even by making vampires more rare: have just a handful in a city, and then you avoid a lot of the issues, I think.

It's important to remember that nothing set in the WoD is exactly a set rule, they're all suggestions, especially the fluff. So if you want to avoid politics, you don't HAVE to run Vampires as the political creatures they are in the default fluff, you can run them as rare apex-hunters who don't get along well together, and don't have more politics then "I heard that a powerful Nos stalks those alleys, I wouldn't go there if I were you".

Then the only reason it's better to be an evil vampire is the universal guideline that he who is most willing to inflict the most harm first is going to have an advantage in a fight.

Well I think I kinda want a variety where probably if the city has the most Vampires, the more political it becomes but cities with less Vampires are less political and they're more loners save for a pocket of other Vampire friends you might have.

Of course as for "evil" vampire....Well maybe this is paradoxical since then again I would play a more combat oriented vampire who would probably more than likely whole sale slaughter everything their path while using melee/conventional weapons and disciplines at the same time as a convenience (which is why I would rather have knowledge of every discipline I can especially use Vicissitude and Obtenebration at the same time during combat especially) but then again it depends who the targets are basically. I think the character's mo would be first, they activate obfuscate, stealth killing enemies one by one and then at the second floor or afterwords, they reveal themselves and start blasting/killing everything outright.

Anonymouswizard

2015-06-30, 04:21 PM

Well I think I kinda want a variety where probably if the city has the most Vampires, the more political it becomes but cities with less Vampires are less political and they're more loners save for a pocket of other Vampire friends you might have.

This is what happens, especially in Requiem. In masquerade the world spanning conspiracies get in the way.

Of course as for "evil" vampire....Well maybe this is paradoxical since then again I would play a more combat oriented vampire who would probably more than likely whole sale slaughter everything their path while using melee/conventional weapons and disciplines at the same time as a convenience (which is why I would rather have knowledge of every discipline I can especially use Vicissitude and Obtenebration at the same time during combat especially) but then again it depends who the targets are basically. I think the character's mo would be first, they activate obfuscate, stealth killing enemies one by one and then at the second floor or afterwords, they reveal themselves and start blasting/killing everything outright.

This annoys me. It reminds me of a PC I had, an Assamite Warrior 'honourable assassin'. But you see, he didn't act obsessed like an Assamite (vizer) did, and had a stained aura. His combat strategy was to use obfuscate to drop agro on his allies then use Celerity to attack several times. Without appearing (and he was rolling against difficulty 8). He eventually got mad that he was framed for diablerie and couldn't fight his way out of it.

Also, Caitiff can learn any discipline, possibly without a tutor. I personally only allow the 9 'core' disciplines without a tutor because Vicissitude, Obtenebration, Chimeristry, and Necromancy are powerful enough on their own (I've removed Quietus entirely, and am reworking Valeren).

Bloodtomb

2015-06-30, 04:40 PM

Also, Caitiff can learn any discipline, possibly without a tutor. I personally only allow the 9 'core' disciplines without a tutor because Vicissitude, Obtenebration, Chimeristry, and Necromancy are powerful enough on their own (I've removed Quietus entirely, and am reworking Valeren).

I think you should allow those other ones because what if I don't want to be those clans just to have their disciplines...

SaurOps

2015-06-30, 04:43 PM

Well I also wonder if there's a path that is like the Kuie-Jinn's Dance of the Thrashing Dragon that follows a hedonistic lifestyle?

That's only the most stereotypical facet of the Dharma. It's more like the Thousand Whispers, but without the extensive self-erasure or use of cover identities that the Centipedes go for.

Anonymouswizard

2015-06-30, 05:00 PM

I think you should allow those other ones because what if I don't want to be those clans just to have their disciplines...

Well find a goddam tutor. You can only be an inceptor if you are 14th generation or lower, and even then your disciplines would differ from the actual ones, because you come from a different culture. I'd have a shadow discipline center more around controlling darkness and leave out the tentacles, focus a flesh crafting discipline on destroying you, the only weird thing is you'd be more likely to develop Mortis than Necromancy. If you want to learn the normal versions of the disciplines, locate and convince teachers, but be prepared for it to be extremely difficult. Lots of Sabbat have the potential to develop flesh crafting thanks to drinking Tzimisce blood, but that's a special case, and fee even learn the first level without tutoring. Oh, and vicissitude is an explicit 'must have drunk Tzimisce blood, unless a Tzimisce or inceptor' deal, and I'm suspicious that an inceptor who did would have survived. It sounds like you don't want Masquerade or Requiem because they put roadblocks on knowing 'all the powers'.

Does make me want to run a game where the PCs are all 14th gen Inceptors though, or maybe 15th gen if they really want a kid.

Bloodtomb

2015-06-30, 05:12 PM

Well find a goddam tutor. You can only be an inceptor if you are 14th generation or lower, and even then your disciplines would differ from the actual ones, because you come from a different culture. I'd have a shadow discipline center more around controlling darkness and leave out the tentacles, focus a flesh crafting discipline on destroying you, the only weird thing is you'd be more likely to develop Mortis than Necromancy. If you want to learn the normal versions of the disciplines, locate and convince teachers, but be prepared for it to be extremely difficult. Lots of Sabbat have the potential to develop flesh crafting thanks to drinking Tzimisce blood, but that's a special case, and fee even learn the first level without tutoring. Oh, and vicissitude is an explicit 'must have drunk Tzimisce blood, unless a Tzimisce or inceptor' deal, and I'm suspicious that an inceptor who did would have survived. It sounds like you don't want Masquerade or Requiem because they put roadblocks on knowing 'all the powers'.

Does make me want to run a game where the PCs are all 14th gen Inceptors though, or maybe 15th gen if they really want a kid.

Yet the main problem that 14th generation is close to being thin blood which means you're very weak and your disciplines are close to being useless. Plus the entire generation system is tied to the Noddest myth being objectively true which means the likelihood of Gehenna being true increases as well. Also when I want Vicissitude, Vicissitude, Obtenebration, Chimeristry, and Necromancy, etc I want the full package not some half-assed version of it (meaning yes I want the tentacles, etc...).

So why not be a inceptor and have "low generation" level powers at the same time? And yep, those roadblocks causes alot of problems for learning every discipline for convenient sakes...

Anonymouswizard

2015-06-30, 05:31 PM

Yet the main problem that 14th generation is close to being thin blood which means you're very weak and your disciplines are close to being useless. Plus the entire generation system is tied to the Noddest myth being objectively true which means the likelihood of Gehenna being true increases as well.

Eh, the Settites give a different explanation. I have them to refer to every generation as being two earlier than Noddists (so the final generation is the 13th), and hint that they may be right. Tremere managed to become a vampire without a sire, so why not Set? In their mind the 1st generation consist of Caitiff which changed their blood to pass traits to their Childer. Caitiff of lower generations are mogrels, but a 1st generation Caitiff is one who has not created the bloodline destiny requires him to.

Oh, and 4th level disciplines aren't too shabby. Protean 4, Auspex 4, Dominate 4, Obfuscate 4, these are really useful discipline levels, and don't lose much bite compare to 5 levels. Bat form and Wolf form are useful for 90% of things mist form is, telepathy doesn't leave your body vulnerable, the same with conditioning versus possession. The big thing that would be nice is Cloak the Gathering, but that's something that can be worked around (maybe you teach your friends obfuscate 2). Yeah, Thin Bloods are cool, and I don't see much problem with not being able to spend those last 2 BP, I'd be feeding before then anyway.

So why not be a inceptor and have "low generation" level powers at the same time? And yep, those roadblocks causes alot of problems for learning every discipline for convenient sakes...

To be an inceptor of a higher generation you generally need to be of less than 6th generation and start a bloodline.

So what are the most convenient powers? I think dominate 3 takes the cake, followed by dominate 1 and 2, plus blood bonding. Obfuscate 1-3 come next, because although they can't help erase evidence, they can have it point to something else. Auspex 1 and Protean 1 are also highly convenient. Protean 3 is convenient as well. Through in some fortitude and presence and we've pretty much covered it.

Quietus isn't convenient because it revolves around poisons, and can be difficult to apply. Obtenebration is powerful, but past level 1 the words masquerade breaking aren't enough. Vicissitude 1 is convenient but expensive, and 2+ start becoming hard to use without endangering the masquerade (but it can be done). But for most of your convenient powers, the 9 core will see you through.

If you meant 'it would be convenient to just learn them all easily', then you might as well just throw out clans entirely, it would be convenient to not have weaknesses either. It would also be convenient to not have to monitor your blood pool, so let's remove the penalty to rise, have vampires heal as mortals, and remove any blood point costs from disciplines!

You do not want Vampire, you want 'serial killer with fangs and awesome powers' the game.

Bloodtomb

2015-06-30, 06:33 PM

Eh, the Settites give a different explanation. I have them to refer to every generation as being two earlier than Noddists (so the final generation is the 13th), and hint that they may be right. Tremere managed to become a vampire without a sire, so why not Set? In their mind the 1st generation consist of Caitiff which changed their blood to pass traits to their Childer. Caitiff of lower generations are mogrels, but a 1st generation Caitiff is one who has not created the bloodline destiny requires him to.

Although in the end especially the Metaplot and the Gehenna supplement, the Noddest myth was right which was highly problematic you know.

Also the Settites are based on racist stereotypes of which they resemble nothing like Egyptian religions but something ripped straight out of Conan the Barbarian which it's best they get tossed out. Also the other problematic thing that they appropriated Set being a Antediluvian Vampire and treated as ' the source of the myths' while the Christian God in the other hand is treated as a actual God which is highly problematic.

Oh, and 4th level disciplines aren't too shabby. Protean 4, Auspex 4, Dominate 4, Obfuscate 4, these are really useful discipline levels, and don't lose much bite compare to 5 levels. Bat form and Wolf form are useful for 90% of things mist form is, telepathy doesn't leave your body vulnerable, the same with conditioning versus possession. The big thing that would be nice is Cloak the Gathering, but that's something that can be worked around (maybe you teach your friends obfuscate 2). Yeah, Thin Bloods are cool, and I don't see much problem with not being able to spend those last 2 BP, I'd be feeding before then anyway.

But still 14th generation vampires can only learn up to level 4 which is I don't want.

To be an inceptor of a higher generation you generally need to be of less than 6th generation and start a bloodline.

So what are the most convenient powers? I think dominate 3 takes the cake, followed by dominate 1 and 2, plus blood bonding. Obfuscate 1-3 come next, because although they can't help erase evidence, they can have it point to something else. Auspex 1 and Protean 1 are also highly convenient. Protean 3 is convenient as well. Through in some fortitude and presence and we've pretty much covered it.

Quietus isn't convenient because it revolves around poisons, and can be difficult to apply. Obtenebration is powerful, but past level 1 the words masquerade breaking aren't enough. Vicissitude 1 is convenient but expensive, and 2+ start becoming hard to use without endangering the masquerade (but it can be done). But for most of your convenient powers, the 9 core will see you through.

If you meant 'it would be convenient to just learn them all easily', then you might as well just throw out clans entirely, it would be convenient to not have weaknesses either. It would also be convenient to not have to monitor your blood pool, so let's remove the penalty to rise, have vampires heal as mortals, and remove any blood point costs from disciplines!

You do not want Vampire, you want 'serial killer with fangs and awesome powers' the game.

Still however I don't want to be restricted to just nine "core" disciplines however nor I don't want to be restricted to just playing a Thin Blood vampire either.

Also throwing out clans is one of my suggestions I've been thinking all along, along with the Beast, Generation, Frenzy, Humanity/Path system, etc. Although what I meant by convenience is that having every single one of them to use as a convenience but I suppose that I also wish that they can be easily learned as well.

I guess it seems I'm asking for a completely different game here it seems like although I don't think I'm asking for "Serial Killer the game" here but you know that Vampire is a subjective organic and anything can be classified as a vampire as long they're undead and drink blood that is....

I think it maybe quite easy just to create a new game but sometimes though it's also easier to modify or work with existing games like VtM you know which I could keep clans and such but maybe I should make Caitiff actual clanless Vampires who can be of any 'generation' especially if I want lower generation Caitiff just incase I don't want to feel forced I have to choose a clan nor if I want powerful disciplines then I have to pick a clan especially the notion that "Only this clan can use this discipline" which is something I don't want.

Or maybe I could just ditch clans altogether....

This annoys me. It reminds me of a PC I had, an Assamite Warrior 'honourable assassin'. But you see, he didn't act obsessed like an Assamite (vizer) did, and had a stained aura. His combat strategy was to use obfuscate to drop agro on his allies then use Celerity to attack several times. Without appearing (and he was rolling against difficulty 8). He eventually got mad that he was framed for diablerie and couldn't fight his way out of it.

Hmmm...seems like the game is designed to punish you if want to lower generation and gain new disciplines quicker which is rather troublesome....

Or maybe it only highlights one of the biggest problems with the whole Diablerie thing which I maybe (along with clans, frenzy, humanity system, etc) I could just toss out the entire generation system perhaps.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2015-06-30, 07:15 PM

Closet_Skeleton

2015-06-30, 07:16 PM

In real life, the separation between the modern vampire and the English revenant is, questionable.

There's a massive difference between a modern concept of vampire and a traditional English revenant. There's no difference at all between some versions of English revenant and some versions of central european vampire but what the 'standard' or 'most common' type of vampire was like is hard to say.

Although I wonder how to run a apolitical vampire game though especially them staying away from Vampire politics, or maybe those who are caught up with it like the protagonist from Bloodlines they can always choose the "Lone Wolf" ending which might be one way to get out of it maybe....

Regarding VtM:Bloodlines; killing everyone is not exactly 'keeping out of politics'.

I think you should allow those other ones because what if I don't want to be those clans just to have their disciplines...

Usually you are in a party in an RPG. You don't need to have a ton of powers, its better for the group if everyone specialises.

Usually the Games Master doesn't want his players to be all powerful for a good reason.

Bloodtomb

2015-06-30, 07:24 PM

Requiem may be a better base for you to build on. Use bloodline disciplines to buff up your discipline count. No generation, only a blood potency that rises and falls as you age and go into torpor, so less static.
Take out the beast, take out humanity and it's whole mechanics, take out clans if you wish (although Requiem clans are more loose archetypes than anything) , take out covenants if you like, pick which banes or abilities you want to be universal, and boom, easy.

Yet Requiem also has many problems which has the Fog of Eternity, Predator's Taint (which all of those are tied to the beast as well), Disciplines are actually much weaker and least combat sufficient unlike in Masquerade, plus the game is even worse in it's personal horror theme since Vampires can't feel real emotions, and other unforgivable aspects as well. Not to mention Requiem is NWoD which means if I have to have a crossover game, then I have to use games I don't like from WoD line like Awakening, Descent, etc which is also I don't want either. I think there was a reason I sticked to Masquerade.....

Anonymouswizard

2015-06-30, 07:24 PM

But still 14th generation vampires can only learn up to level 4 which is I don't want.

Where's the XP to raise multiple disciplines to 4+ dots coming from anyway? You start with 3-6 dots of disciplines, and if Caitiff have to spend 10, to learn a new discipline and then current level*6 to raise it. 'I don't want to only be able to learn 4th level disciplines, and I want to be able to learn every single one' is starting to just sound like complaining at the possible solutions given.

Still however I don't want to be restricted to just nine "core" disciplines however nor I don't want to be restricted to just playing a Thin Blood vampire either.

So you say 'I want to be able to play this concept', I come in and say 'okay, it'll require some work, but you can do it', and then you say 'no, that won't work, I must have all the powers to the highest neonate level'. I don't know what to say.

Also throwing out clans is one of my suggestions I've been thinking all along, along with the Beast, Generation, Frenzy, Humanity/Path system, etc. Although what I meant by convenience is that having every single one of them to use as a convenience but I suppose that I also wish that they can be easily learned as well.

At this point, you might be playing a vampire, but you aren't playing Vampire. You've gutted out basically everything that makes Vampire have an identity, why not just play GURPS and spend 150CP on the vampire template, then take some psionics?

Oh, and I plan to run Clanless Requiem at some point. I have no problems with gutting clans, but without the Beast, Generation/Blood Potency, Frenzy, Humanity etc. I just have a game with a variety of powers, a sunlight allergy, and an okay system. I'd rather just play Savage Worlds or GURPS.

I guess it seems I'm asking for a completely different game here it seems like although I don't think I'm asking for "Serial Killer the game" here but you know that Vampire is a subjective organic and anything can be classified as a vampire as long they're undead and drink blood that is....

:smallconfused:

Of course as for "evil" vampire....Well maybe this is paradoxical since then again I would play a more combat oriented vampire who would probably more than likely whole sale slaughter everything their path while using melee/conventional weapons and disciplines at the same time as a convenience (which is why I would rather have knowledge of every discipline I can especially use Vicissitude and Obtenebration at the same time during combat especially) but then again it depends who the targets are basically. I think the character's mo would be first, they activate obfuscate, stealth killing enemies one by one and then at the second floor or afterwords, they reveal themselves and start blasting/killing everything outright.

Wholesale slaughter doesn't sound like a serial killer? Oh, and how is this guy surviving blasting/killing everything outright, even Fortitude 5 can give you a bad roll.

I think it maybe quite easy just to create a new game but sometimes though it's also easier to modify or work with existing games like VtM you know which I could keep clans and such but maybe I should make Caitiff actual clanless Vampires who can be of any 'generation' especially if I want lower generation Caitiff just incase I don't want to feel forced I have to choose a clan nor if I want powerful disciplines then I have to pick a clan especially the notion that "Only this clan can use this discipline" which is something I don't want.

Canon has a 6th gen Caitiff. It's rare, but it does happen. The 'only clan X can use discipline Y' is to a) stop every vampire from having the uber cool disciplines, and b) so you have to sacrifice being able to learn several disciplines in order to be able to learn one.

Oh, and you know the clans without special disciplines? Ventrue get the ultimate social spread, Brujah an awesome combat spread, Toreador a good well rounded set, even Nosferatu have good tools for spying. I'd argue that Ventrue get the best discipline set bar none, dominate and presence are just that good, with Fortitude letting them survive until those two get them out of any confrontation.

Hmmm...seems like the game is designed to punish you if want to lower generation and gain new disciplines quicker which is rather troublesome....

Or maybe it only highlights one of the biggest problems with the whole Diablerie thing which I maybe (along with clans, frenzy, humanity system, etc) I could just toss out the entire generation system perhaps.

Eh, this was the character was acting in a way that was annoying the elders and was set up. The actual diablerist was left to fend for himself by his clan, and successfully used his wits to evade capture (and the Tremere found a potion that would suppress the signs for three days just before the game had to stop, but it took a month to brew a dose). Again, if you want to toss out so much, why play vampire.

On the Settites, I don't even connect them to Egypt beyond the name Set. They are Gnostics with a very strange belief system, and not all agree if Typhoon was Set from the myths. Their belief system as so little to do with the myths why connect them.

Also, have you looked at Requiem 2e? Disciplines are powerful, the fog of eternity is gone, as is the predator's taint. With the 'I don't like descent' problem, either use translation guides or just homebrew. I don't like descent, but will that stop me from using demons in Requiem? No, I'll just use Strix mechanics.

-totally not a Nosferatu, I avoid the sunlight for other reasons.

Nerd-o-rama

2015-06-30, 07:43 PM

To answer your question, I think rather than playing Vampire and throwing out most of the fluff and rules, you might consider Mutants & Masterminds. Play a superhero fluffed as an (edgy) vampire instead of a vampire fluffed as a superhero and make whatever lore you want. Play Blade or Morbius or Raziel rather than a Kindred.

Bloodtomb

2015-06-30, 08:17 PM

There's a massive difference between a modern concept of vampire and a traditional English revenant. There's no difference at all between some versions of English revenant and some versions of central european vampire but what the 'standard' or 'most common' type of vampire was like is hard to say.

Regarding VtM:Bloodlines; killing everyone is not exactly 'keeping out of politics'.

Usually you are in a party in an RPG. You don't need to have a ton of powers, its better for the group if everyone specialises.

Usually the Games Master doesn't want his players to be all powerful for a good reason.

Well I'm actually thinking about creating a new thread pitching my own Vampire idea at this point but it'll be a while though.

Although I'm not so sure what you mean by killing everyone is not exactly keeping out of politics but maybe I'm not making myself clear but I think it really depends on the situation but maybe you're saying that combat isn't required in a non-political game? If so then what else can the Vampire do and what can the game be about then?

Well can you explain the reason why the Games Master doesn't want their players to be all powerful? Although I figured it might make sense but then again though, in VtM: Bloodlines you only have access to only 3 disciplines which you have to go to the console to type in console commands to get that code.

Where's the XP to raise multiple disciplines to 4+ dots coming from anyway? You start with 3-6 dots of disciplines, and if Caitiff have to spend 10, to learn a new discipline and then current level*6 to raise it. 'I don't want to only be able to learn 4th level disciplines, and I want to be able to learn every single one' is starting to just sound like complaining at the possible solutions given.

So you say 'I want to be able to play this concept', I come in and say 'okay, it'll require some work, but you can do it', and then you say 'no, that won't work, I must have all the powers to the highest neonate level'. I don't know what to say.

Well the major point was I didn't want to play as someone who can only use level 4 at their maximum.

At this point, you might be playing a vampire, but you aren't playing Vampire. You've gutted out basically everything that makes Vampire have an identity, why not just play GURPS and spend 150CP on the vampire template, then take some psionics?

Oh, and I plan to run Clanless Requiem at some point. I have no problems with gutting clans, but without the Beast, Generation/Blood Potency, Frenzy, Humanity etc. I just have a game with a variety of powers, a sunlight allergy, and an okay system. I'd rather just play Savage Worlds or GURPS.

Well going back to the main topic of this thread, I thought gutting out the Beast/Frenzy/Humanity would make Vampires more sympathetic and gutting out the Generation system would remove the Abrahamic centricism but maybe I could be wrong though but it was main purpose though.

Wholesale slaughter doesn't sound like a serial killer? Oh, and how is this guy surviving blasting/killing everything outright, even Fortitude 5 can give you a bad roll.

Maybe once again I'm not making myself clear, I'm only talking about when I'm in combat situations or rather if I'm playing a combat oriented vampire 'during a quest' but it shouldn't be the main focus of the game though, so no I'm not trying to be a serial killer here. I think you misunderstood me. Well actually to be more clear, maybe I was suggesting to play Vampire: The Apocalypse the whole time (as in Werewolf: The Apocalypse but in place of a Vampire character though)...

Canon has a 6th gen Caitiff. It's rare, but it does happen. The 'only clan X can use discipline Y' is to a) stop every vampire from having the uber cool disciplines, and b) so you have to sacrifice being able to learn several disciplines in order to be able to learn one.

Well I knew it....

I actually see this being a major problem I was trying to point out since I really disagree with this entirely.

To answer your question, I think rather than playing Vampire and throwing out most of the fluff and rules, you might consider Mutants & Masterminds. Play a superhero fluffed as an (edgy) vampire instead of a vampire fluffed as a superhero and make whatever lore you want. Play Blade or Morbius or Raziel rather than a Kindred.

I don't think "Mutants & Masterminds" sound appealing to me since not only I wouldn't want to play as a superhero but also "Mutant and Monsters" sounds like the Vampire has to have a 'scientific origin' as commonly found in most superhero stories which is pretty much out of the question I guess.

Anonymouswizard

2015-06-30, 08:33 PM

Okay, a few things:

1) there was no indication that that was combat situations only. It sounded like 'diplomacy is going poorly? That person is in my way, so time to die'.

2) removing generation is something I can deal with, but at that point just replace it with BP. I don't like removing generation from Masquerade because if I don't like it I can just shift it to representing BP.

3) you don't want a cap, you want to be able to learn everything, you don't know why GMs don't want all powerful PCs? Have you thought of 'all powerful PCs have no reason to do anything'? If you have everything you want the GM had no way to include you in the plot. 'I has every discipline'? Not much I can work with. I'm a Caitiff and want to learn Dementation? Plot: find a tutor. I bought ranks in inceptor and want to create a shadow discipline? We have roleplay material, and people wanting to steal the secrets is plot.

4) you have made it clear you don't like the buy-ins of vampire, so why not play something else. Some suggestions: Mutants and Masterminds, GURPS, Fate (including Dresden Files), D20 modern, Unisystem.

Bloodtomb

2015-06-30, 08:59 PM

1) there was no indication that that was combat situations only. It sounded like 'diplomacy is going poorly? That person is in my way, so time to die'.

It's more of a "What if" scenario actually.

Well another possibility to play Vampire without the politics or any combat situations at all and like you said make Vampires rare in the city with only a handful which Vampires are loners which the PC only feeds on willing donars and the rest buys (or steals) blood from a butcher shop. Or maybe the Vampire can be a recluse living among other homeless people under a bridge or just exploring and squatting in abandoned buildings while feeding on animals and everything else there isn't that much else to do. I wonder if it's possible to play Vampire this way.

3) you don't want a cap, you want to be able to learn everything, you don't know why GMs don't want all powerful PCs? Have you thought of 'all powerful PCs have no reason to do anything'? If you have everything you want the GM had no way to include you in the plot. 'I has every discipline'? Not much I can work with. I'm a Caitiff and want to learn Dementation? Plot: find a tutor. I bought ranks in inceptor and want to create a shadow discipline? We have roleplay material, and people wanting to steal the secrets is plot.

Thing is though, I don't think I want to create a half ass shadow discipline where I can have the full package with Obtenebration but thing is though, I don't want to be a Social Darwinist just to have Obtenebration, nor a Italian Mafiao just to have Necromancy which is my major problem with Masquerade's "only clan has this discipline".

Another problem with Interceptors that any discipline they create will be very weak and useless.

4) you have made it clear you don't like the buy-ins of vampire, so why not play something else. Some suggestions: Mutants and Masterminds, GURPS, Fate (including Dresden Files), D20 modern, Unisystem.

Or maybe I could try find another WoD gameline and try to find something that is closest to a Vampire? Hence the thread I've created long ago but then again I don't think I have to do this though.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2015-06-30, 09:08 PM

Yet Requiem also has many problems which has the Fog of Eternity, Predator's Taint (which all of those are tied to the beast as well), Disciplines are actually much weaker and least combat sufficient unlike in Masquerade, plus the game is even worse in it's personal horror theme since Vampires can't feel real emotions, and other unforgivable aspects as well. Not to mention Requiem is NWoD which means if I have to have a crossover game, then I have to use games I don't like from WoD line like Awakening, Descent, etc which is also I don't want either. I think there was a reason I sticked to Masquerade.....

All of this was removed in second edition. Well, except the lack changed other lines, but there are conversion books for that if it's that important. But yeah, no more fog of eternity, vampires now are no more prone to memory damage than healthy old mortals. Predators taint is changed to an active ability in which you choose to either seduce, threaten-as-challenge, or threaten-to-scare, which you can easily discard without changing anything else. Disciplines have been given a significant boost: still not enough to stand toe to toe white room with an equivalent Werewolf, but a combat vampire can throw a ridiculous number of dice now, without even going into real cheese. And they have vampires real emotions.

Bloodtomb

2015-06-30, 10:10 PM

Disciplines have been given a significant boost: still not enough to stand toe to toe white room with an equivalent Werewolf

Hence my stance still stands on Requiem Vampires being weaker compared to Masquerade Vampires and is still out of the question....

I think I'm asking for a high-powered vampire game with a realistic portrayal of other cultures and beliefs. Maybe I could use Masquerade's rules and use Requiem's setting and just replace generation with blood potency.

Nerd-o-rama

2015-06-30, 10:38 PM

I don't think "Mutants & Masterminds" sound appealing to me since not only I wouldn't want to play as a superhero but also "Mutant and Monsters" sounds like the Vampire has to have a 'scientific origin' as commonly found in most superhero stories which is pretty much out of the question I guess.

It's actually more like a generic d20 system that's aimed toward being cinematic and high-power without getting bogged down in details. There's no assumed fluff whatsoever (though the full books have a default setting that's a basic Marvel/DC homage) and you can build literally anything in it. I suggested it because the character you're describing is definitely the 90's-antihero-badass type of superhero who happens to be a vampire. I figured you're basically looking for Blade, who's a superhero vampire originating in Marvel comics and is actually a very simple M&M build. And again, you can give your character any fluff you want.

And I guess while a plurality of superheroes have their origins either in alien physiology or some sort of mad science, again, there are characters like Blade who are like "yeah I'm an actual magical vampire with Circumstances that make me more human than normal."

Hence my stance still stands on Requiem Vampires being weaker compared to Masquerade Vampires and is still out of the question....

I think I'm asking for a high-powered vampire game with a realistic portrayal of other cultures and beliefs. Maybe I could use Masquerade's rules and use Requiem's setting and just replace generation with blood potency.

There's actually a conversion guide out there that goes both ways, giving ways to convert Requiem concepts into OWoD (actually V20, which is the 20th anniversary update for Vampire the Masquerade) as well as Madsuerade concepts into NWoD rules. I can't find it, but your google-fu may be stronger than mine.

Bloodtomb

2015-06-30, 10:59 PM

As I promised as I mentioned from another thread that I have several ideas for a alternative Vampire game and how it would work....

First of all, I have a idea I've been thinking alone where I could reduce the entire Kindred species into a splat in much larger game based on different versions of Vampires like for example:

The PC Vampires:

The Kindred: Vampires made from embracing or basically the standard VtM/VtR style Vampires.

The Infectious: The more extreme offshot of the Kindred where they are spread through several (which the victim goes through a "Lucy Westerna" mode) or a single bite which actually requires them to not only kill their victims but also they have to destroy their bodies (if the blood drained body isn't destroyed...they turn into Zombies basically while the "infectious" nature of the bite takes over the host corpse) which are seen as a threat by other Vampires which they're commonly hunted down to stop them from spreading or basically they're Near Dark or Innocent Blood style vampires. I think this could be a interesting game to play where 'keeping the victim alive' that other splats enjoy is no longer a option which they have to cope they have to kill their prey or else if they don't they'll spread their brand of vampirism and maybe the whole "Zombie taking over the blood drained corpse" can be only for older or more potent infectious while younger ones are less potent and infact they can be even cured by blood transfusions before the "infection" goes stronger over time. Basically the Near Dark vampires are basically their "younger" counterparts and Marie from Innocient Blood is probably the more potent version of that brand is how I would picture it or maybe they're separate into different types.

The Risen: Vampires who come back from the dead which are based on the Kuie-Jinn and Wraith's Risen or Kain from Legacy of Kain but except unlike the Risen, they drink blood to preserve their immortality or else go through corpus stages of decay if they don't.

The Self Made: Vampires who are self-made by Alchemy or magical means.

The Hereditary: "Living Vampires" who do not turn or rise from the dead but they are born as Vampires or basically Vampires based on the "Fever Dream" comics.

Of course maybe the antagonists could be based on the older myths of Vampires being complete monsters to alien parasites based on "Necroscope" and the "Strain". Basically the antagonists here are based on complete monster portrayals of Vampires that sets apart of the PC Vampires.

For example here are the antagonists:

The Folkloric: Monstrous Vampires based on older myths around the world such ranging from Revenants, Jiang Shi, Aswang, Vrykolakas, Draugr, The Strix, etc

The Parasite: Necroscope style Vampires where umbrood parasites connect to a host which makes them require blood and twists their bodies similar to the Tzimisce. or maybe The Necroscope Vampires are similar to the Formori....(maybe this is what the Tzimisce don't want to become despite their transhumanism)

The Hive: The more extreme version of the Parasite Vampires which they are controlled by a single "Master" which the other 'vampires' of this brand are complete hideous monsters especially their genitalias fall off. Based on Vampires from the "Strain".

Type 0: Stephen King style Vampires described from "Salem's Lot" and "Dark Tower" series basically.

So does anyone have ideas?

Bloodtomb

2015-06-30, 11:08 PM

It's actually more like a generic d20 system that's aimed toward being cinematic and high-power without getting bogged down in details. There's no assumed fluff whatsoever (though the full books have a default setting that's a basic Marvel/DC homage) and you can build literally anything in it. I suggested it because the character you're describing is definitely the 90's-antihero-badass type of superhero who happens to be a vampire. I figured you're basically looking for Blade, who's a superhero vampire originating in Marvel comics and is actually a very simple M&M build. And again, you can give your character any fluff you want.

And I guess while a plurality of superheroes have their origins either in alien physiology or some sort of mad science, again, there are characters like Blade who are like "yeah I'm an actual magical vampire with Circumstances that make me more human than normal."

Well actually first of all, Blade is a Dhampyr not a actual full blood Vampire who basically hunts actual Vampires which is not what I want though.

Also I don't think I want a DC/Marvel like setting either but rather a setting where all myths/legends/etc are all true which is kinda like the WoD in a way or rather the real world with supernatural beings/creatures living amongst us.

Bloodtomb

2015-07-01, 12:19 AM

This is a offshot of the Alternatives to Cainite Vampires (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?422070-cWoD-Alternatives-to-%28Cainite%29-Vampires) which in the thread said this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19409295&postcount=10):

Honestly, you could homebrew something happening in response to Gehenna. Mummies came back after the Week of Nightmares*, and nobody really knew about them except legends. Hunters showed up suddenly. Something new that looks similar to vampires but aren't could start showing up, too.

Let's say that all Cainite Vampires died from Gehenna (especially the Wormwood scenario with the remaining turned into mortals) and a new Vampire like species started showing up but they're nothing like the Kindred of the past though but completely different and they have no connection to Caine or any Abrahamic mythology which they act as the replacement of the Kindred which I wonder how different they'll be?

Perhaps I'll be thinking they'll be like loners who don't have any politics in their "society" (or the lack of) and infact their numbers are very rare and only a handful exists and unlike the Kindred, they don't embrace but they're simply human souls inhabiting inside a corpse which they need sources of life that is not theirs (although they can drink blood although they don't have to though...) to sustain them to remain in the material world or else they'll rot into corpus stages of decay until their hosts no longer supports them which the wraith/human soul has to find a another corpse to inhabit. They may have discipline like powers but maybe nothing that matches the Kindred once were though but they can try to imitate them but never perfectly though. Also they don't have fangs but they can get dental work on them though or put fake fangs though.

Basically it's similar to Promethean: The Created but without the Disquiet/Wasteland which they're commonly loners or basically they're like Risen but they don't feed on Patheos but rather they simply require all forms of life itself to continue existing in our world. Plus even though they're like Vampires but they can never truly be a Vampire or what the Kindred once were and plus they have no beast/frenzy/humanity system either which instead they have no morality system since they are essentially human souls that repossessed either their own corpse or others. Also there is no Personal Horror theme either, it's essentially could be a metaphor about recovering from severe depression and try to enjoy life but they never can in it's fullest extent therefore they have to take what was no longer theirs just to enjoy again sort of or simply 'one last time' or they believe they have a 'second chance' in life or simply because they are afraid of death and they just want to continue exiting in the material world the longest they can but they can never fulfill life's offerings they once had....

Although like Vampires, they can drink blood but they can also eat flesh as well, but they can also feed on emotions but also they can 'feed' on the very concept of being alive such as either leading a hedonistic lifestyle or they can live in recluse either letting everything sink in or maybe they live with their own melancholy depression while remembering the things they used to do alive which they can 'feed on that' sort of maybe.

Any ideas?

Ravian

2015-07-01, 01:31 AM

Also I don't think I want a DC/Marvel like setting either but rather a setting where all myths/legends/etc are all true which is kinda like the WoD in a way or rather the real world with supernatural beings/creatures living amongst us.

You can do that. Mutants and Masterminds is sold as a superhero setting, but in reality it can be used tons of different ways. This is largely because superheroes cross genres fairly easily (For example Batman's been an actual vampire, a pirate, a knight during the crusades, a cowboy, and a cave man just to name a few.)

The core of Mutants and Masterminds is to be able to handle tons of crazy powers for whatever you need without getting bogged down on restrictions other than those you impose on yourself. There is no core setting that it expects you to play in. If you want to play a DC or Marvel type world, it will do that. If you want to play a world where the supernatural exists and vampires are "anti-heroes with fangs" it will do that. The only thing it doesn't typically do is low powered games (since even starting characters can toss cars if they want to) but from the sounds of it that's not what you want either.

Vampire the Masquerade has a buy-in in that it is a personal horror game at its heart. It expects characters to make morally ambiguous decisions and deal with the consequences of their actions. It will take far more effort than its worth to warp it how you want.

So, steal the parts you want and make your own game with a generic system that can handle it. You want a vampire that has the powers you want, and the weaknesses you want and the origin you want and the morality you want, Mutants and Masterminds can probably handle it pretty darn well. Want to add some cross-over from Mages and Werewolves. Mutants and Masterminds can do that too.

Mutants and Masterminds is like an all you can eat buffet. It won't wait on you hand and foot like some games will, but if you put the work in you can take exactly what you want out of it while leaving behind anything you don't like.

I'd say don't judge a book by its cover and take a look at it.

Menace

2015-07-01, 02:23 AM

Hence my stance still stands on Requiem Vampires being weaker compared to Masquerade Vampires and is still out of the question....

I think I'm asking for a high-powered vampire game with a realistic portrayal of other cultures and beliefs. Maybe I could use Masquerade's rules and use Requiem's setting and just replace generation with blood potency.

Not that i know much about oWoD but I believe it was the same in Masquerade. Vamp+Werewolf=Dead Vamp.

I must agree with what other people are saying. If you want to play the game without what makes interesting and what people like in it then you probably should be playing something else.

Anonymouswizard

2015-07-01, 04:56 AM

It's more of a "What if" scenario actually.

Well another possibility to play Vampire without the politics or any combat situations at all and like you said make Vampires rare in the city with only a handful which Vampires are loners which the PC only feeds on willing donars and the rest buys (or steals) blood from a butcher shop. Or maybe the Vampire can be a recluse living among other homeless people under a bridge or just exploring and squatting in abandoned buildings while feeding on animals and everything else there isn't that much else to do. I wonder if it's possible to play Vampire this way.

it is. You'll be relatively blood starved, but it's possible. The first guy might get severely punished though.

Thing is though, I don't think I want to create a half ass shadow discipline where I can have the full package with Obtenebration but thing is though, I don't want to be a Social Darwinist just to have Obtenebration, nor a Italian Mafiao just to have Necromancy which is my major problem with Masquerade's "only clan has this discipline".

Another problem with Interceptors that any discipline they create will be very weak and useless.

Huh? First of all, that 'half ass shadow discipline' is more like the full donkey, you'd lose out on shadow tentacles but probably gain the ability to track people by a piece of their shadow.

Also not every Lasombra is a social darwinist, it just is common because of how they select candidates. I can see some people who believe in the inner strength of humanity making it in there, as well as a handful of transhumanists.

And I agree that nobody should have to play a mafisto to use necro Nancy, but let's look at the Giovanni properly. 'Giovanni vampires are rich merchants, speculators, and investors', so a Giovanni's connections to the mob are likely 'I helped that mafisto invest wisely'. The one Giovanni character I had was a fashion designer who had left medical school, and if you don't want Giovanni, you can always take Nagaraja or persuade your GM that a harbinger of skulls embraced.

And an Inceptor's discipline will be very weak and useless? The example discipline of kineticism was fairly useful, and even the simplest disciplines I can think of (e.g. adds automatic successes to stats) are very powerful. Plus I'm sure that there's at least one fire discipline in all the Caitiff ones.

Or maybe I could try find another WoD gameline and try to find something that is closest to a Vampire? Hence the thread I've created long ago but then again I don't think I have to do this though.

But, you aren't interested in WoD, you've explicitly stated you hate some of the buy-ins.

Hence my stance still stands on Requiem Vampires being weaker compared to Masquerade Vampires and is still out of the question....

I think I'm asking for a high-powered vampire game with a realistic portrayal of other cultures and beliefs. Maybe I could use Masquerade's rules and use Requiem's setting and just replace generation with blood potency.

Or use Requiem 2e, it's higher powered than even masquerade. But you still hate one of the buy-ins, which is a shame as humanity is really well done in it.

Well actually first of all, Blade is a Dhampyr not a actual full blood Vampire who basically hunts actual Vampires which is not what I want though.

Also I don't think I want a DC/Marvel like setting either but rather a setting where all myths/legends/etc are all true which is kinda like the WoD in a way or rather the real world with supernatural beings/creatures living amongst us.

Good news, Mutants and Masterminds does this! Just remove the default setting (which is so easy to do, 90% of the required player chapters are just rules.

Anonymouswizard

2015-07-01, 05:39 AM

Step 1: pick up Mutants and Masterminds, Fate, or GURPS, because you aren't interested in WoD, only vampires.

Step 2: create campaign world.

Bloodtomb

2015-07-01, 08:14 AM

it is. You'll be relatively blood starved, but it's possible. The first guy might get severely punished though.

Great, am I I'm supposed to play Vampires in a certain way now? Is the game really designed to punish you for not including the politics or being a metaphorical rapist? if so then I might as well forget it.

What's really hypocritical that you (or one of you) first suggested this setting and now you come out against it? I don't know what to think now.

Huh? First of all, that 'half ass shadow discipline' is more like the full donkey, you'd lose out on shadow tentacles but probably gain the ability to track people by a piece of their shadow.

You keep missing the point that Shadow Tentacles is exactly I was asking for hence the discipline you've suggested is still half ass and not worth even using.

Also not every Lasombra is a social darwinist, it just is common because of how they select candidates. I can see some people who believe in the inner strength of humanity making it in there, as well as a handful of transhumanists.

And I agree that nobody should have to play a mafisto to use necro Nancy, but let's look at the Giovanni properly. 'Giovanni vampires are rich merchants, speculators, and investors', so a Giovanni's connections to the mob are likely 'I helped that mafisto invest wisely'. The one Giovanni character I had was a fashion designer who had left medical school, and if you don't want Giovanni, you can always take Nagaraja or persuade your GM that a harbinger of skulls embraced.

Problem is though I either have to be a flesh eater or some literal walking corpse which there isn't so much choice here. This is why I rather want to bring back the Cappadocians in the modern era you know....

And an Inceptor's discipline will be very weak and useless? The example discipline of kineticism was fairly useful, and even the simplest disciplines I can think of (e.g. adds automatic successes to stats) are very powerful. Plus I'm sure that there's at least one fire discipline in all the Caitiff ones.

But still though, like the shadow discipline you suggested, it's still not the full blown version though hence not very potent enough.

But, you aren't interested in WoD, you've explicitly stated you hate some of the buy-ins.

Or use Requiem 2e, it's higher powered than even masquerade. But you still hate one of the buy-ins, which is a shame as humanity is really well done in it.

Good news, Mutants and Masterminds does this! Just remove the default setting (which is so easy to do, 90% of the required player chapters are just rules.

Well I'm basically basing everything from this (http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-classic-world-of-darkness/vampire-the-masquerade/491146-vampire-without-humanity?p=491941#post491941):

Hmmm...I have played very little Vampire, but I was one a Sabbat session once or twice. The Paths of Enlightenment provided enough latitude you didn't have to worry about morality in the Human sense of the word anymore. While we certainly were "badasses with an attitude who didn't give a crap no more" compared to our usual Camarilla fare; but we were not actively trying to go ax-crazy or bestial for the sake of it either.
Come to think of it we weren't really that much more monstrous than your usual Brujah gangbangers, and it was liberating to be able to defend yourself from an attacker or punch an uppity kine in the face when he insults you with worrying about Humanity, Conscience rolls and derrangements from botches. You know, sort of like it works for humans, both in the game and real life.

So maybe there's something to be said about ditching the morality systems altogether...

I mean heck, Mages and faeries can do whatever they like, and Garou who have a beast the books keep saying is even more bestial than that of Vampires can engage in wholesale genocide and extinction of entire sentient species without shedding a tear and going all emo about it; so why should Vampires be morally constrained by the opinions some dude wrote back in 1991 based on his interpretation of postmodern judeo-christianity values? Maybe the real penalty for acting like a monster should be that you act like a monster, rather than having your character sheet taken away by the GM because some abstract entry on it ran out of dots due to physics not being on your side when you threw some polyhedral solids shaped like pentagonal trapezohedrons.

Of course the bolded part is what I'm trying to explain why I don't like the humanity/beast/frenzy system or the personal horror theme at all.

Anonymouswizard

2015-07-01, 08:47 AM

Great, am I I'm supposed to play Vampires in a certain way now? Is the game really designed to punish you for not including the politics or being a metaphorical rapist? if so then I might as well forget it.

What's really hypocritical that you (or one of you) first suggested this setting and now you come out against it? I don't know what to think now.

No, what I'm saying is that feeding on willing donors will be classified as a masquerade violation by the Camarilla, so expect trouble, and will be seen as weak by the Sabbat, so expect trouble in their cities as well. Hell, only feeding from willing donors is the Salubri weakness, and many young vamps stick to animal blood for a time

You keep missing the point that Shadow Tentacles is exactly I was asking for hence the discipline you've suggested is still half ass and not worth even using.

So, you need the awesome l33t powerz, and think that removing a situational power in exchange for situational power makes it half a donkey because 'I want shadow tentacles and fleshcrafting and emotion control and ghost control and snakiness and magic and I don't care about what makes sense'. Shadow play is minor, but choking darkness is awesome, as is Shadow form, as is being able to potentially locate everyone you meet. But those can't exist, because you must have shadow tentacles.

Problem is though I either have to be a flesh eater or some literal walking corpse which there isn't so much choice here. This is why I rather want to bring back the Cappadocians in the modern era you know....[_QUOTE]

The Harbingers of Skulls are returned Cappadocians. So being embraced by one would make yo a Cappadocian. Wow, it's not like you asked for one of the examples I gave, is it?

[QUOTE]But still though, like the shadow discipline you suggested, it's still not the full blown version though hence not very potent enough.

:smallconfused: how is it not potent? It gives 4/5 powers that the 'full blown' one does, and replaces a combat power with a useful if hard to set up tracking power. Again, YOU CAN CREATE A CLOUD OF CHOKING DARKNESS AND BECOME A LIVING SHADOW, why is that not very potent. It's still amazing.

Well I'm basically basing everything from this (http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-classic-world-of-darkness/vampire-the-masquerade/491146-vampire-without-humanity?p=491941#post491941):

Of course the bolded part is what I'm trying to explain why I don't like the humanity/beast/frenzy system or the personal horror theme at all.

Eh, I don't pay close attention to humanity when running, and can get behind running, but without the Beast and Frenzy you lose a good deal of the temptation. The Beast is waiting for a mistake or an excuse for provocation, and you can either try to resist it or change your morality to go along with it. Choice.

Also, in Requiem 2e Humanity is no longer morality. It measures how human you feel, whether that's amoral bastard or holy saint. But most humans don't react well to killing someone, so murder makes you realise you aren't human.

Bloodtomb

2015-07-01, 09:05 AM

No, what I'm saying is that feeding on willing donors will be classified as a masquerade violation by the Camarilla, so expect trouble, and will be seen as weak by the Sabbat, so expect trouble in their cities as well. Hell, only feeding from willing donors is the Salubri weakness, and many young vamps stick to animal blood for a time

Well first of all, the setting I'm talking about is where the Camarilla nor the Sabbat doesn't have any presence at all and vampires are rare and don't have much of a society which they either just blend in with the human populace or have their own domains.

Of course though, in settings where Camarilla and Sabbat have a presence with a large Vampire population I guess I could stick to when feeding on humans, don't kill the innocient ones but only drain the ones who are attacking you or human enemies.

So, you need the awesome l33t powerz, and think that removing a situational power in exchange for situational power makes it half a donkey because 'I want shadow tentacles and fleshcrafting and emotion control and ghost control and snakiness and magic and I don't care about what makes sense'. Shadow play is minor, but choking darkness is awesome, as is Shadow form, as is being able to potentially locate everyone you meet. But those can't exist, because you must have shadow tentacles.

:smallconfused: how is it not potent? It gives 4/5 powers that the 'full blown' one does, and replaces a combat power with a useful if hard to set up tracking power. Again, YOU CAN CREATE A CLOUD OF CHOKING DARKNESS AND BECOME A LIVING SHADOW, why is that not very potent. It's still amazing.

The bolded part is what I was trying to explain that I rather have it as a combat power not a tracking power (or maybe I can have both as a tracking and combat power as a convenience....) hence where I was trying to explain why I prefer having shadow tentacles still available.

Well then again, I was trying to explain that I want to play a combat oriented vampire who uses disciplines for combat purposes. I hope I'm making sense to you.

The Harbingers of Skulls are returned Cappadocians. So being embraced by one would make yo a Cappadocian. Wow, it's not like you asked for one of the examples I gave, is it?

So that means if I get embraced by a Harbringers of Skulls, I would not look like a walking corpse with 0 appearance rating but rather the Cappadocians from the Dark Ages?

Of course another problem would be that if I was trying to port my Dark Ages Cappadocian character into the modern era, I don't want to be a Harbinger of Skulls with 0 appearance rating you know.

Eh, I don't pay close attention to humanity when running, and can get behind running, but without the Beast and Frenzy you lose a good deal of the temptation. The Beast is waiting for a mistake or an excuse for provocation, and you can either try to resist it or change your morality to go along with it. Choice.

Also, in Requiem 2e Humanity is no longer morality. It measures how human you feel, whether that's amoral bastard or holy saint. But most humans don't react well to killing someone, so murder makes you realise you aren't human.

Hmmm....now that looks rather interesting...

Sith_Happens

2015-07-01, 01:38 PM

Yes it does sadly anough.

Seriously? Because that leaves... Actually quite a few RPGs that you would be able to enjoy playing, that list just includes very few World of Darkness games. It's called that for a reason, just as a reminder.

It's actually more like a generic d20 system that's aimed toward being cinematic and high-power without getting bogged down in details. There's no assumed fluff whatsoever (though the full books have a default setting that's a basic Marvel/DC homage) and you can build literally anything in it. I suggested it because the character you're describing is definitely the 90's-antihero-badass type of superhero who happens to be a vampire. I figured you're basically looking for Blade, who's a superhero vampire originating in Marvel comics and is actually a very simple M&M build. And again, you can give your character any fluff you want.

Yep, the full set of what I'd consider the fundamental abilities of a vampire (undead, drinks blood, only permanently killable by specific methods) costs like 20 power points tops, which is a small portion of your total budget even if you're playing at much lower than the default power level.

Hmmm....now that looks rather interesting...

Having high Humanity also makes the sun hurt less, though even medium Blood Potency mostly counteracts that.

Anonymouswizard

2015-07-01, 02:04 PM

Seriously? Because that leaves... Actually quite a few RPGs that you would be able to enjoy playing, that list just includes very few World of Darkness games. It's called that for a reason, just as a reminder.

I personally think he'd prefer the World of Dim Lighting to WoD, the sort of safe and not too dark option. If only Trinity 2e was out, I'd suggest porting Cainites to it.

Yep, the full set of what I'd consider the fundamental abilities of a vampire (undead, drinks blood, only permanently killable by specific methods) costs like 20 power points tops, which is a small portion of your total budget even if you're playing at much lower than the default power level.

Don't forget that the complication 'loses powers in sunlight' will give plenty of hero points.

Having high Humanity also makes the sun hurt less, though even medium Blood Potency mostly counteracts that.

Yeah, this is what I love, but that's partially because I default to a Mekhet following the Mystery of the Ascendant to play around with it. If I can nab the 5 'round the block' experiences my first character will be going Auspex 3, Coil of the Ascendant 1 as a fresh out of apprenticeship researcher. It gives a disincentive to diabletise as well.

Bloodtomb

2015-07-01, 02:10 PM

I personally think he'd prefer the World of Dim Lighting to WoD, the sort of safe and not too dark option. If only Trinity 2e was out, I'd suggest porting Cainites to it.

Except Trinity is a science fiction setting which is not I'm interested in.

Basically I rather prefer more contemporary settings much like our world but with supernaturals (and metaphysicis/cosmology/etc) in it.

Anonymouswizard

2015-07-01, 02:41 PM

Except Trinity is a science fiction setting which is not I'm interested in.

Basically I rather prefer more contemporary settings much like our world but with supernaturals (and metaphysicis/cosmology/etc) in it.

So is Aberrant, the 'modern day' superhero version of the Trinity Continuum. Science fiction is as broad as 'roleplaying genre'. Lovecraft is sci-fi.

Sith_Happens

2015-07-01, 03:50 PM

Don't forget that the complication 'loses powers in sunlight' will give plenty of hero points.

If you're going for power loss rather than "burns to death" then the sun comes up more than often enough (no pun intended) to qualify for the Limited flaw. Power point discounts > hero point opportunities.:smallamused:

Basically I rather prefer more contemporary settings much like our world but with supernaturals (and metaphysicis/cosmology/etc) in it.

You might be able to get what you're looking for by hacking the Dresden Files RPG.

TheCountAlucard

2015-07-01, 03:53 PM

Alternatively, I suggest adapting the rules from Chuubo's Marvelous Wish-Granting Engine.

LibraryOgre

2015-07-01, 05:19 PM

Basically I rather prefer more contemporary settings much like our world but with supernaturals (and metaphysicis/cosmology/etc) in it.

Try Apocalypse Prevention, Inc. Just entered the 2nd edition, it has vampires and werewolves and magic and such.

McStabbington

2015-07-01, 07:59 PM

I think OWOD could work, since technically all of the fluff is there for the Storyteller to use at their discretion. Rule 0 of that system is particularly powerful. That being said, I'm not sure I've ever heard of Friendly Neighborhood Vampire: The Occasional Drinkening as a game, and I'm fairly certain no other OWOD storytellers have either. It could be difficult to get a playing group together around this concept.

Ravian

2015-07-02, 12:55 AM

You keep on shooting down ideas with the phrase "That's not the kind of game I want to play." Without giving a fair look at them.

Let's try to build a criteria list for what kind of game you want.

I'll start with what I've gathered so far.

1. You want to play a vampire. (I assume this is true, honestly there are times I'm doubtful.)

2. You want a game that doesn't limit the powers that are available to you. (Thus why you dislike how only some clans have certain disciplines.)

3. Really so far it seems like you really just aren't interested in clans, since so far you seem to treat them like toll booths to get to the powers you want.

4. You don't want a game that includes elements that limits how you can play your character.
4a. You don't want a morality system. (Or at least not an incredibly objective morality system.)

5. You want to be powerful. (able to stand toe to toe with a werewolf it appears?)

6. You're don't want a game with moral ambiguity. (Or at least one that forces you to be bad in order to survive.)

7. You want an urban fantasy setting (being magic driven rather than science) however you don't want something that relies on Judeo-Christian mythology.

Tell me how accurate these statements are (feel free to correct me where they ere) and add any other criteria you might have.

Final question? How set are you on using oWOD rules? I ask because right now an attempt to use the ruleset to match with all your criteria would require removing a fair number of elements completely and removing plenty of others. (Not to mention rewriting the fluff almost entirely.) Given that this will already take a significant amount of work, would you be at all possible to use a more generic system capable of adapting to the criteria you specified as well as leaving itself open as a blank slate for you to use? On the down-side, it would likely use different mechanics than is used in oWOD. However it's generally easier to start with an empty plot of land and build what you want instead of trying to renovate the house on the scale you would require.

LibraryOgre

2015-07-02, 08:56 AM

I'm going to develop a bit more on my "You should play API" suggestion. API has a loosely-developed MIB-style setting, but that can be left alone, if you like.

1) The Vampires of API are called "Taylari". They're not truly immortal, but very long-lived (and when they die, they become ravening beasts). They're not immune to the sun, but it only causes them discomfort, not true damage. There are "families", but I'd put them as being Mob families... most Taylari, unless they choose to be part of a family, don't have to deal with family politics.

2) The Wolf People are a race of shapeshifters, with two main forms... the human form, and the half-wolf form. Half-wolf makes them tougher and more aggressive, but they're not invulnerable killing machines.

The system is not designed around a morality system. Vampires have no "beast" they must contain, and while they have a slight advantage with certain magic powers (the Path of Blood, naturally), there's nothing stopping them from developing any sort of magic they wish to use.

Sith_Happens

2015-07-02, 09:10 AM

As for V:TM, Golconda is a thing. It specifically requires 7+ Humanity, basically tells the Beast to shut up and sit down, lets you last a week on a single point of Vitae, and lets you learn any Discipline you want.

Even if you don't achieve Golconda during play (it's more or less supposed to require an epic quest), the sort of vampire that would want it is pretty much exactly the kind you want to play.

Anonymouswizard

2015-07-02, 09:43 AM

As for V:TM, Golconda is a thing. It specifically requires 7+ Humanity, basically tells the Beast to shut up and sit down, lets you last a week on a single point of Vitae, and lets you learn any Discipline you want.

I thought it just removed generation limits. So a 12th gen Toreador could have Auspex 9, but not Obtenebration 2.

Even if you don't achieve Golconda during play (it's more or less supposed to require an epic quest), the sort of vampire that would want it is pretty much exactly the kind you want to play.

Except that you'd want to avoid combat in order to keep your humanity above 7. As long as you can manage that you don't care about the Self-control virtue though.

Sith_Happens

2015-07-02, 12:42 PM

I thought it just removed generation limits. So a 12th gen Toreador could have Auspex 9, but not Obtenebration 2.

You're right, I was remembering wrong.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2015-07-02, 01:41 PM

Anonymouswizard

2015-07-02, 01:51 PM

Wait, oWoD characters full-stop CAN'T learn disciplines of other clans? I guess I just assumed it was like nWoD when you can learn any discipline with a teacher and enough XP, out-of-clan disciplines were just more XP and harder to get a teacher.

Okay, here's the rundown:
You can learn your clan disciplines at a reduced cost and without training.
You might be able to learn the physical disciplines without training, check with your GM.
Animalism, Auspex, Dementation, Dominate, Obfuscate, Presence and Protean can be learnt but require blood for level 1 and training for all levels.
Vicissitude can be learnt by anybody who has drunk Tzimisce blood.
Obtenebration can only be learnt by Lasombra.
Chimerstry can only be learnt by Ravnos.
Quietus can only by learnt by Assamites.
Serpentis can only be learnt by Settites.
Blood Magic can be taught to anyone.

EDIT: oh, and pump as many points into celerity as you can for a combat character, unlike V:tR Celerity isn't useful in combat but insane. Fortitude is stronger than Requiem 1e's resilience but weaker than 2e's, Potence is slightly stronger than Vigor.

Masquerade's physical disciplines, from strongest to weakest:
Celerity
Potence
Fortitude

My view on them in Requiem 2e:
Resilience (aggravated soak is awesome)
Vigor
Celerity (still really good, but doesn't bump an attribute like the others)

comicshorse

2015-07-02, 05:07 PM

Presence and Protean can be learnt but require blood for level 1 and training for all levels.
Vicissitude can be learnt by anybody who has drunk Tzimisce blood.
Obtenebration can only be learnt by Lasombra.
Chimerstry can only be learnt by Ravnos.
Quietus can only by learnt by Assamites.
Serpentis can only be learnt by Settites.

I'm really not sure that's right. Certainly I've played in multiple games where all of those were learned by non-Clan members as long as they could be tutored in the discipline by somebody who has it at a higher level

I guess I just assumed it was like nWoD when you can learn any discipline with a teacher and enough XP, out-of-clan disciplines were just more XP and harder to get a teacher.

This in fact

McStabbington

2015-07-03, 01:52 AM

Wait, oWoD characters full-stop CAN'T learn disciplines of other clans? I guess I just assumed it was like nWoD when you can learn any discipline with a teacher and enough XP, out-of-clan disciplines were just more XP and harder to get a teacher.

No, that doesn't fit with the fluff of the universe at all. Baba Yaga is Nosferatu, but she knows obscene levels of Thaumaturgy. Mithras is Ventrue but he knows low levels of Quietus. Japheth is Cappadocian, but he knows quite a bit of both Thaumaturgy and Obtenebration. Moncanda is Lasombra but he has significant skill in Protean.

There were no rules exactly about learning Out of Clan disciplines beyond the fact that they cost more experience per level than those In Clan. Beyond that, it was really the storyteller's prerogative whether and how to get Out of Clan disciplines. Some say all OOC disciplines require blood and a teacher; more commonly, the common disciplines usually just require blood and training for the first level. Clan-specific disciplines almost always require blood and a trainer, usually one that's pretty desperate. The Assamites and Tremere really don't like to share, whereas other disciplines like Vicissitude or Ogham you really might prefer not knowing.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2015-07-03, 07:53 AM

OK, nevermind I misunderstood a post.

Anonymouswizard

2015-07-03, 08:54 AM

I'm really not sure that's right. Certainly I've played in multiple games where all of those were learned by non-Clan members as long as they could be tutored in the discipline by somebody who has it at a higher level

This in fact

Huh, I was certain that, Obtenebretion and Quietus were supposed to be unique. I'm certain that for Obtenebretion it's spelt out explicitly in V20, but I only own 2e and don't have access to my friend's book. I know Protean and Dementation are explicitly called out as being learnable by others.

In all honesty, the following should be the clan spreads:

Assamite: Auspex, Celerity, Obfuscate.
Brujah: Celerity, Presence, Potence.
Followers of Set: Obfuscate, Presence, Protean.
Gangrel: Animalism, Fortitude, Protean.
Giovanni: Auspex, Dominate, Potence. (Although I'd allow 2e Necromancy as a discipline, not revised though)
Lasombra: Dominate, Obfuscate, Potence.
Malkavians: Auspex, Dominate*, Obfuscate.
Nosferatu: Animalism, Obfuscate, Potence. (No 'the Malkavians are better spies' arguments, with Animalism you can gather secrets from many places at once)
Ravnos: Animalism, Fortitude, Presence*.
Toreador: Auspex, Celerity, Presence.
Tremere: Animalism, Auspex, Dominate. (This is intentionally the 'old clan tzimisce' spread)
Tzimisce: Animalism, Auspex, Protean.
Ventrue: Dominate, Fortitude, Presence.

This solves the problem of having TWO not-Protean disciplines (seriously, Serpentis is just a variant, and Vicissitude shares enough similarities). I'd make a change to one discipline though:
Obfuscate 1 is replaced by the Quietus 1 power. It makes it a unique power and is basically 'invisibility for sound' anyway.

Thaumaturgy and Necromancy must be learnt out of clan.

If you want to, you can replace the starred disciplines with Requiem's Nightmare, especially 2e's version.

At this point, Dementation, Obtenebretion, Quietus, and Vicissitude would be sets of combination disciplines. You'd get similar sets of combination disciplines associated with each clan, from the Ventrue blending Dominate and Presence to the Nosferatu with a variety of Obfuscate devotions.

At this point, it becomes the problem of not having all the required disciplines in-clan, and requiring a teacher. But with enough Dominate and Obfuscate, you too can learn Shadow Play (no Arms of the Abyss in this version, because I hate that power).

Oh, and here the Nosferatu and Lasombra are so descended from the same 2nd gen. :smalltongue:

Brother Oni

2015-07-03, 09:49 AM

No one chooses to become a vampire, which is part of the tragedy, but it's their decisions after that happens that define the game: do you play the game of Jyhad/Dance Macabre?

This is one of the fundamental differences in theme between a Kindred and Kuei-jin. Kuei-jin become what they are because of their choices in life and have the strength of will to escape their subsequent torment (in mechanical terms, all Kuei-jin must start with a minimum of Willpower 5).

They can then spend the rest of eternity continuing to atone until they achieve enlightment and step out of the Great Cycle or become lost in their Second Life, stuck on seeking understanding.

Well I also wonder if there's a path that is like the Kuie-Jinn's Dance of the Thrashing Dragon that follows a hedonistic lifestyle?

Since you appear to be having issues with getting to grips with the path of Humanis, I'd stay away from any other Path, particularly the Kuei-jin ones which can be very subjective in terms of player interpretation, especially if you and your Storyteller don't see eye to eye on it.

As SaurOps said, the hedonistic lifestyle of the Thrashing Dragons is only the most stereotypical surface interpretation of it. Most of them either grow out of it or become stuck (or even regress).

horus42

2015-07-03, 12:42 PM

Anonymouswizard

2015-07-03, 01:28 PM

I've been following this thread for a while now, and I'll echo what others have said about VtM not being the game for you. You say you want to play it, but you want to throw out everything that makes it what it is. That's like saying about D&D that "I don't think it's fair I can't get a wizard's spellcasting and a barbarian's rage and a rogue's sneak attack just because I'm a fighter, so let's just get rid of Classes. And while we're at it, I hate the conceit of the game, so let's do away with races too. And adventurers in general. And the dungeons. And the dragons."

Not every game appeals to everyone. And that's okay. If someone asked me to play Fate, I'd politely refuse. If you want to play a game with similar mechanics to oWoD, and want to be a vampire-like character, I might suggest Exalted, and that you play as an Abyssal.

To be fair, I've just learnt from this thread that in VtM being a fighter-class (your clan is Brujah) doesn't stop you from learning the noble-class's unique shadow magic (Obtenebretion) in addition to the wizard-class's magic (thaumaturgy), you'll just be weaker than if you concentrated on the fighter abilities (strength, speed, and making people like you). The reason I prefer to play either with clans is because you then have characters who lean towards an archetype, although they aren't as constrained as in D&D. In Requiem I'd rather get rid of clans and have the 'classes' be just the covenants (just make all disciplines cost 4XP, except for in-mystery coils [enforce the 'takes a long time' clause]). In-fact, an idea for how you could do something the OP might like in Requiem:

-Get rid of Clans. All disciplines cost 4XP per dot (in 2e, in 1e go with new level*6). Alternatively, physical disciplines are in-clan.
-The Lancea et Sanctum, Circle of the Crone, and Ordo Dracul don't fit the feel you want. Get rid of them, and probably the Invictus and Carthians.
-Assume an Invictus/Carthian style organisation for the city. You have the Prince, Primogen, Sheriff, and Hounds, but their only real duty is enforcing the traditions. Most of the society is closer to gangs and rep economy, with kindred banding together into cliques.
-Keep Invictus Oaths and Carthian Law, but change the restrictions on them. The lower levels of Carthian Law are fairly useful for Hounds, while Oaths allow older vampires to maintain a measure of control in this more chaotic setting/
-Almost forgot, the players can learn Animalism, Auspex, Celerity, Dominate, Majesty, Nightmare, Obfuscate, Protean, Resilience, and Vigor without a teacher. In addition they can develop any bloodline disciplines the ST allows (I personally would make Cachexy open to all, OP would like stuff such as Obtenebretion [Lasombra variant, not Khabit]). This leaves any 'known' vampire disciplines available to any who want them, and implies that once you know where to start you can develop any vampire power. I'd personally remove Cruác and Theban Sorcery, and limit Coils to reclusive kindred.

On the 'there are some games you just won't like', I agree with this, and after trying unisystem I'll avoid it as having all the stuff I don't like from D&D and WoD (all 'thinking' is determined by one stat, uses a flat chance instead of bell curve, scaling XP costs, the guy who ran it ignored my request for investigation in favour of more combat*). In return, there's someone in my group who will, instead of bowing out of games he doesn't like, will try to force the group to only play combat focused d20 systems (he's going to hate my campaign, which is only fair, given his AFMBE game, and when the character creation arrives I'm going to be right upfront that combat should be a last resort).

* note a system here, and I maintain that if given the chance to try witchcraft I'll give the system another go.

McStabbington

2015-07-03, 02:19 PM

Huh, I was certain that, Obtenebretion and Quietus were supposed to be unique. I'm certain that for Obtenebretion it's spelt out explicitly in V20, but I only own 2e and don't have access to my friend's book. I know Protean and Dementation are explicitly called out as being learnable by others.

In fairness, there are strong fluff reasons why those disciplines are almost never seen outside of their Clans. If you are religious as a vampire, Obtenebration is quite literally summoning the powers of Hell to your aid. If you aren't, you are still singling yourself out as a Sabbat agent, if for no other reason than that uses of the discipline rips up the Masquerade and does a jig on it. As for Quietus, even the antitribu of the Sabbat don't share that discipline because of the religion of the Clan. The Path of Blood basically requires diablerie of unworthy vampires, and the Assamites view everyone not them, even packmates in the Sabbat, to be unworthy. They aren't quite in the same league as something like Obeah or Ogham, where most Kindred haven't even heard of the bloodline much less the discipline, but finding a willing tutor is extremely rare even for those few who would be interested in learning.

Anonymouswizard

2015-07-03, 02:27 PM

In fairness, there are strong fluff reasons why those disciplines are almost never seen outside of their Clans. If you are religious as a vampire, Obtenebration is quite literally summoning the powers of Hell to your aid. If you aren't, you are still singling yourself out as a Sabbat agent, if for no other reason than that uses of the discipline rips up the Masquerade and does a jig on it. As for Quietus, even the antitribu of the Sabbat don't share that discipline because of the religion of the Clan. The Path of Blood basically requires diablerie of unworthy vampires, and the Assamites view everyone not them, even packmates in the Sabbat, to be unworthy. They aren't quite in the same league as something like Obeah or Ogham, where most Kindred haven't even heard of the bloodline much less the discipline, but finding a willing tutor is extremely rare even for those few who would be interested in learning.

There's a good reason for the bolded one: the discipline doesn't exist! :smalltongue: I refuse to refer to it with anything but Valeren, because that name fits with the Bloodlines' history better and is what most scholars will call it (go to your local Camarilla library and ask for a book about healing disciplines and it'll say that the only known one is the Valeren of the Salubri).

That, actually makes me rather sad, because shadow tentales and poison blood aren't Vampiric powers, and although I get the reasons signature disciplines would be oh so rare outside of the clan. I think I'll have it so learning them has more hoops to jump through (for Obtenebretion you have to link yourself to the Abyss, Quietus requires feeding only on poisoned blood for some amount of time, Chimerstry needs you to truly understand lying to a metaphysical level, Dementation requires you to break your mind, etc.) Oh wait, I forgot, I removed those disciplines because I think they're silly and should be combo powers! I still need to work out a good way to do Valeren as combo disciplines.

TheCountAlucard

2015-07-03, 08:48 PM

Dementation is also gonna be rare outside of its clan - you can only use it if you possess a derangement. :smallamused:

Bloodtomb

2015-07-06, 02:46 PM

7. You want an urban fantasy setting (being magic driven rather than science) however you don't want something that relies on Judeo-Christian mythology.

Well one thing to address about number 7 is that yes I do want a Urban Fantasy that is magic driven but thing is though what I'm trying to avoid is using Abrahamic mythology as a basis where you have other religions to consider like Hinduism, Buddhism, Daoism, Shintoism, Pre-Christian European religions, Mesopotamian, African (including Egyptian), Pre-Columbian (North American and Mesoamerican), Polynesian, etc mythologies to consider although Judeo-Christianity still exists but it's not required to be the center of everything you know.

Also I have so interesting ideas of linking Abrahamic mythology with it's original Polytheistic origins which is Leviate/Canaanite mythology with Yawheh originally being a war/storm deity who betrayed and 'slew' his own pantheon (it would make sense that the 72 Demons of Solomon are actually the souls of the former Deities that were slain by Yawheh and his Angel armies and are thrown to Mot's former underworld that is now called "Hell") overthrew it's original "The Most High" El and became the most High himself with his legions of his own Angels but one of his Angels (Lucifer/Satan who was the leading general of the rebellion against El the Most High) either came to his senses or wanted more power which he led a rebellion and you know the whole story which Yawheh now sets his eyes on the other Deities from other religions/mythologies.....

Also Adam, Lilith, Eve were not the first humans nor was Caine was the first murderer or vampire but rather they were simply products of Yawheh testing his newfound powers based on what other Mesopotamian Deities did in the past which also the world existed as infinite pocket realms (explaining The Garden of Eden, Land of Nod, etc) before it became solidified as a planet sort of.

Anonymouswizard

2015-07-06, 04:32 PM

Bloodtomb

2015-07-07, 07:50 PM

For my current nWoD setting, the Abrahamic god does exist, but replaces the god machine and is not the Christian (or Jewish or Islamic) god, but rather as the first angel who has since died. There was a war between Michael and Lucifer over who would take over, Lucifer lost and he and his followers were cast down to earth. Michael has since stepped down from ruler of the angels and his successor is simply referred to as El these days (as was Michael when he ruled).

Lucifer and his followers fractured on earth, some posing as gods, others spitefully terrorising humans, and yet others living alongside humans. Their children were the first mages, with more versatile powers than their parent, and the story of the war in heaven corrupted into the story of Atlantis. The Exarchs are mages who later tried to storm heaven, but got beaten and banished to the realms between heaven and earth.

The demons are still around, but the world no longer lets them materialise as easy. They use the simplified attributes and have a power stat called ego. Their fuel stat is named faith, and at the lowest levels of ego exist in a spirit form in the real world, not twilight. As ego increases they become able to possess corpses (ego 3), living people (ego 5), and finally materialise in their true forms (ego 7). They have innate Dread Powers like the Strix (a corrupted form of their old numina), and can learn songs which act as rituals.

As a side note, although it takes a dread power to change form, all demons can swap gender at will. Demons can breed with each other, which results in a litter of demons that usually have to be placed in a mortal's care (a demon is born at ego 10 and materialises, and then slowly loses ego over their life until they hit ego 1, realise what they are, and dissolve into spirit form).

If I can work out a better term for ego I might build this into a full fangame, separating nephilim from mages (which can really just disappear) and add verses as quick and dirty powers.

But still, it seems that this is still using Abrahamic Mythology as a basis which is exactly what I was trying to avoid since I don't want to override other mythologies.

Basically for example in VtM, I would remove The Followers of Set and the Children of Osiris entirely since they culturally appropriated Egyptian mythology saying that Set and Osiris being vampires especially being treated as the source of the myths while the Christian God is not which is highly offensive which is exactly what I'm talking about how they override other mythologies while the Abrahamic one reigns "official" and 'supreme'. Then again, the Followers of Set are one of the 'independent' clans which are really just based on captain ethnic racial stereotypes (Giovanni = Italian Mafia, Ravnos = "Gypsies" (a racist term that is), Assimates = Islamic Terrorists aka Islamophobia the clan, Followers of Set = Pulp depictions which resemble nothing like the actual religion that represents them, etc).

Maybe basically if I did my own version of VtM, I would only have the Brujah, Gangrel, Malkavian, Nosferatu, Toreador, Tremere, Ventrue, Tzimisce, Lasombra, Cappadocian, Salubri, Baali (and maybe along with new clans like Daeva and Mehket replacing some) only existing which I would have the native 'Vampires' from Arabia or Islamic socities (the ones that are active during the Day but sleep during night) being a variation of Djinn (which I would make a separate gameline based on them), I would entirely remove Kuie-Jinn and replace them with a another variation of 'Xian' (Taoist Immortals which I would also make a another gameline out of too) called the "Gui Xian" and the Vampires from Pre-Columbian Americas (Native American Vampires) are descendants from Jumlin (https://authorlyngibson.wordpress.com/2014/05/01/the-jumlin-a-vampire-legend-from-the-cherokee-nation/).

Bloodtomb

2015-07-07, 08:37 PM

It makes me wonder...does anyone find anything suspiciously familiar with Kindred society and how the Mafia works especially it's Jyhad games?

Anonymouswizard

2015-07-07, 09:14 PM

Okay, a couple of things:

One, the example I gave was specifically designed to be based of Abrahamic stuff, so as to justify more Abrahamic demons. If you ask an Angel what the truth is they'll give you their religion, although nothing actually metaphysically separates 'angel' from spirit, they are a spirit society.

Second, that setting includes five Clans, guess which five.

Third, GIOVANNI AREN'T BASED ON THE MAFIA STEREOTYPE, THEY ARE MERCHANTS.
MERCHANTS!
Giovanni are merchants and bankers. Their ties to the mob are that they likely have a mobsters money in a bank they run. A few minority are involved in organised crime, most are in more traditional businesses. You see, I like the Giovanni because they aren't vampire gangsters.

Fourth, the Assamites are not 'Islamiphobia: the Clan'. I don't particularly like the Warriors due to hating the 'noble assassin' cliche, but I love the Vizers and Sorcerers due to the fact that they are generally both devout and decent people, they just have odd views on diablerie. The Muslims are actually a minority, although a significant one. They began as one-note middle eastern assassins, and the Islamic elements later on added death. Imagine if the Ventrue began as 'Senate Member: the Clan', and then depth was added by having Ventrue who weren't into politics and a company based Clan structure.

But if the Caine myth wasn't present in masquerade, Mekhets instead of Settites all the way. I love the Mekhet. Oh, and what I like about VtR is that all those different vampire-like things, can be represented by Kindred if you want or separate things entirely, I personally prefer making them Kindred of variant Clans or Bloodlines, with the understanding that this is an abstraction for ease of use, and that most Jiangshi are barely intelligent (change as appropriate to the creature's strange qualities).

Those five Clans are Daeva, Gangrel, Mekhet, Nosferatu, and Ventrue.

Nerd-o-rama

2015-07-07, 09:28 PM

Assimates = Islamic Terrorists aka Islamophobia the clan

Out of curiosity, are you aware of the historical origins of the word "Assassin", what culture that originated in, and when? I am pretty sure the inspiration for the Assamites is older than...things I can't by rules discuss on the forums.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2015-07-08, 07:00 AM

It makes me wonder...does anyone find anything suspiciously familiar with Kindred society and how the Mafia works especially it's Jyhad games?

In nWoD it is explitly like the Mafia in many places, and in fact the default ruling covenant, the Invictus, in many cities (especially in North America) IS the Mafia of the city.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2015-07-08, 07:03 AM

I think the point is less "They don't have a basis in history," but rather "Their basis in history is a tiny part of Muslim lived experience that is one of the sole areas picked up on (along with the evil-vizier stereotype) by Western dilettantes and until recently, even professional historians".

Put it this way; when I decided to create a Muslim Covenant in nWoD (the Lancea et Sanctum does not suffice for numerous reasons, and I'm glad that second edition has stopped pretending that it can represent more than Christianity), I went back to the roots of their faith, and analyzed what parts of had to be present for Muslim vampires to accept a new faith. I used various theories on the origins of the Qur'an (mostly discredited, but interesting when applied to a fictional version), combined with actual Muslim ideas of their own history, and fit it into the games context. You can't simply plug in the TINY part of history that is popular and assume you've sufficiently represented a culture. The Assamites use Western conceptions of Arab and Muslim cultures and assumes it's sufficient, while denying Muslim or Arab self-conceptions room to be represented.

Edit: Another way of thinking of it is if Europe was represented in the game solely through a clan of Vampiric Knights modelling themselves on the Paladins of Charlemagne. It's ludicrous to imagine that, should a bunch of Europeans turn into vampires, they would forsake all they thought and believed to organize themselves based on an irrelevant historical oddity. It's even more ludicrous to imagine this clan spread into such places as were never affected by Charlemagne, like Scotland or Poland. And even this doesn't get at how ludicrous the idea is, to get the full picture you have to imagine it as if the Paladins of Charlemagne were all also (or believed to be) Nestorian Christians, or some other incredibly minor branch of the faith, considered heretical by a large portion of modern people. That's the situation the Assamites are in.

Anonymouswizard

2015-07-08, 07:13 AM

Anonymouswizard

2015-07-08, 07:15 AM

Yes, in oWoD it's more like a war between secret societies, there are Mafia elements, but it's more Illuminatus.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2015-07-08, 07:58 AM

Do you mind sharing details on the Muslim covenant? I'm personally using an altered Lances et Sanctum because they are Catholics and I need Anglicans (including both high church and low church, I'm going to run a campaign where the Sanctum has split over whether Kindred are dammed eternally or if they are saved when they die). I also have Jewish vampires but they don't have a covenant (in London at least) and just try to act like decent people.

Aye, I'll pm you what I have. I think I've been skirting close if not crossing the no religion line already, and my writeup definitely crosses that line, so pm it must be. I still haven't come up with what benefits I want to give them. Don't want to give them sorcery, just need to figure something else out... Maybe just a bevy of exclusive disciplines, perhaps with an xp discount?

Edit: I'm out and about at the moment actually, but when I get home I'll send it. It's still unfinished, warning.

Edit edit: and reading it again, I've been lax in writing down a lot of my more recent ideas. Expect it later today once I clean it up a bit.

Sith_Happens

2015-07-08, 09:37 AM

Aye, I'll pm you what I have.

I also find this idea of yours interesting.

I still haven't come up with what benefits I want to give them. Don't want to give them sorcery

Why not? From what I hear about 2e every covenant has its own form of sorcery now, and the Lance already had one in 1e even though its roots in Catholicism should logically lend it to thinking "sorcery = bad."

Elderand

2015-07-08, 09:48 AM

Why not? From what I hear about 2e every covenant has its own form of sorcery now, and the Lance already had one in 1e even though its roots in Catholicism should logically lend it to thinking "sorcery = bad."

Not quite, proper sorcery is the domain of the circle and the lancea. Invictus and Carthian get supernaturaly enforced laws/contracts and the Ordo gets permanent buffs/change to a vampire core nature.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2015-07-08, 09:54 AM

I also find this idea of yours interesting.

Why not? From what I hear about 2e every covenant has its own form of sorcery now, and the Lance already had one in 1e even though its roots in Catholicism should logically lend it to thinking "sorcery = bad."

Aye, I was thinking maybe something more similar to the Invictus or Carthian benefits than the outright sorcery of the Lance and the Order. Sorcery fits Catholic-based covenant better than Islam for Reasons I can't discuss. Suffice to say, Catholicism has a tradition of miracles in a way that Islam specifically does not.

Anonymouswizard

2015-07-08, 11:06 AM

To be fair, the Covenants have:

Carthian Movement: Mystic Law Stuff that I don't really understand.
Circle of the Crone: Blood Magic.
Invictus: Blood Oaths.
Lancea et Sanctum: not Blood Magic honest.
Ordo Dracul: Blood Mysticism.

Disappointed with what two convenants get (Carthians and Invictus), I'm thinking about adding more things to the covenants, in particular:
Circle of the Crone and Lancea et Sanctum: reducing the casting time on rituals to 1 minute per roll and adding the Blood Sorcery rituals in. It means that they don't have to spend the better part of a night casting their rituals.
Ordo Dracul: Warding, a discipline that turns the power of banes outwards and can stop creatures from passing boundries. I wanted to add something that felt mystic to the Ordo without taking away their science bent.
Invictus: The first estate really should have it's reach properly represented. Their members can spend a point of Willpower and an hour in order to either increase Allies or resource by one or gain a new dot of contacts for the rest of the Scene.
Carthians: to be honest I LIKE Carthian Law, far more than Invictus Oaths, I just wish there was more of it.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2015-07-08, 11:13 AM

I sent off my current draft of the covenant to those who asked, if anyone else wants it just PM me or post in any of the WoD threads, I follow all of them (except maybe those that are explicitly cWoD only in the title).

Ravian

2015-07-10, 02:20 AM

The term, "neo-feudal" comes up a lot in vampire, which also is a fairly accurate description of how mafias tend to operate. There are a few people at the top, who in turn control a slightly larger group of people below them (who perform certain duties to those above) and who in turn control another slightly larger group of people below them. (And so on and so forth)

This is largely because the thing vampires, mafias, and feudal lords all have in common is how they are all fairly dependent on tribute (be it blood, money or grain respectively)

This is especially true when you consider the fact that most of the higher tiers of vampires are actually dependent on vampire blood (meaning they have to have a tier of vampires under them to collect the human blood, which in turn can be collected by the elder.) But even without those tiers, a vampire not having to stick their neck out to hunt (and can instead just be provided a tasty blood doll by a loyal vassal) is in general a happy vampire.

Nerd-o-rama

2015-07-10, 08:59 AM

It's all basically hierarchical, with more established powers controlling younger/weaker members in a chain, which can be compared to both feudal societies and mafias. The Camarilla (and to some degree, the Sabbat) in OWoD feels much more like a supernatural secret society as it's more organized on a global scale than real-world syndicates, and given their flavor it's very Illuminati-like.

Depending on who's in control of the top of the hierarchy for a city, of course, the aesthetics are going to be a bit different (in NWoD, for example, your typical Invictus city is going to have a single don at the top, while a Carthian-controlled city is more likely to experiment with councils of equals or representative democracy or the like, a Lancea et Sanctum town will probably have its religious hierarchy making decisions for the other factions, etc.)

Smaller towns with a smaller Vampire population (or areas that aren't strictly controlled by the Camarilla in OWoD) might look more like a patchwork of local gangs, each with their own territory and alliances, much like organized crime in most cities, actually.

Chen

2015-07-10, 10:29 AM

Not being familiar with nWOD everything I'm saying is more based on oWOD. There I wouldn't say its exactly like a Mafia. While the Prince is the ruler of the city, very often the Primogen of the city hold very equal if not more actual power and influence. Sure in some cities the Prince rules absolutely but it certainly isn't 100% of them. Similarly among clans the Primogen may be the one who plays the most politically and thus was granted the position by the Prince whereby other clan members (perhaps elder ones) hold more power. It is of course similar to the Mafia in that it is hierarchical for the most part though. The structure is generally more fluid though than a typical mafia structure. Positions can move around more easily, at least if you're playing in very political games.

Nerd-o-rama

2015-07-10, 11:24 AM

It's also important to remember that not every "mob town" was/is like the Godfather. In fact, I would venture to say none of them were, because that was a movie. Occasionally you had one man strongarm his way into a dictatorial position (Capone in Chicago comes to mind), but generally speaking it's a semi-fluid hierarchy of families that compete and cooperate at the same time, analogous to OWoD's Clans and NWoD's Covenants. In fact, closer to the Godfather Part I where the whole city goes back and forth between tenuous alliance and all-out war, rather than Godfather Part II after Michael Corleone's coup.

Bloodtomb

2015-07-10, 02:45 PM

I forgot to quote these two....

Try Apocalypse Prevention, Inc. Just entered the 2nd edition, it has vampires and werewolves and magic and such.

I'm going to develop a bit more on my "You should play API" suggestion. API has a loosely-developed MIB-style setting, but that can be left alone, if you like.

1) The Vampires of API are called "Taylari". They're not truly immortal, but very long-lived (and when they die, they become ravening beasts). They're not immune to the sun, but it only causes them discomfort, not true damage. There are "families", but I'd put them as being Mob families... most Taylari, unless they choose to be part of a family, don't have to deal with family politics.

2) The Wolf People are a race of shapeshifters, with two main forms... the human form, and the half-wolf form. Half-wolf makes them tougher and more aggressive, but they're not invulnerable killing machines.

The system is not designed around a morality system. Vampires have no "beast" they must contain, and while they have a slight advantage with certain magic powers (the Path of Blood, naturally), there's nothing stopping them from developing any sort of magic they wish to use.

I would consider those suggestions to be out of the question because.

1. Well I don't think I want a setting that is centered around the Apocalypse (such as preventing it or post-apocalyptic settings) at all. While I'm aware that this could be hypocritical for me sticking to OWoD/VtM which it's plot is centered around Gehenna which is almost impossible to ignore and I don't think I can change the mythos around making the ToJ/Gehenna scenarios impossible as long the Antediluvians are real. Maybe it's possible to make Noddest myth are just based on lies/half-truths taken out of context while the Academic approach are more than likely the most true one? Like for example, maybe not making the Generation system (since it's tied to the Noddest myth) not exist but actually Blood Potency does, Caine is not the first vampire but something else (let's say Caine was just a 'invention' by Vampires living in Christian society, even though Cain himself still exists but he's not the first vampire nor was he the first murderer either since he's just a product of Yawheh's pocketrealms and he was killed by a blind archer) is that is actually based on older Mesopotamian Mythology (like what if the Snake from Epic of Gilgamesh was actually the first Vampire or something?) and also the Antediluvians (well the clan founders) don't have Plot Device powers as everyone makes them out but instead their Blood Potency is extremely high and only have the none-plot device level 10 disciplines? Also the 'thin-bloods' always existed, they're just vampires whose Blood Potency is extremely low but everyone mistakes them as the 'sign of the apocalypse'.

2. I don't think the Vampires described in API appeals to me because first of all the most noticeable is that they don't have 'immortality' which it seems they'll just inevitably die from their version of "old age" and become ravening beasts).

So...

Well actually let's just say I would rather stick to the WoD (unless there's a better game...) but I'm trying to find a suitable Vampire to play but maybe without all the baggage....

Anonymouswizard

2015-07-10, 03:01 PM

1. Well I don't think I want a setting that is centered around the Apocalypse (such as preventing it or post-apocalyptic settings) at all.

From what I gather by the blurb on the site, it isn't a game about the Apocalypse, but just a catchy name. I get the feeling that it's supposed to be more like a conspiracy-level game of Hunter: the Vigil (which I so need to get), with the API fighting against supernatural creatures that 'threaten' humanity. This could just be eating the occasional one, for all I know. I'll try casting Summon Mark Hall and see how wrong I am.

2. I don't think the Vampires described in API appeals to me because first of all the most noticeable is that they don't have 'immortality' which it seems they'll just inevitably die from their version of "old age" and become ravening beasts).

That should be a simple thing to houserule out, it's not like you're removing something that'll often come up in play, and a GM can recycle the ravening beasts as something else. It seems rather petty to say no for something that probably won't happen to your character for a good few hundred years until after the game has ended.

So...

Well actually let's just say I would rather stick to the WoD (unless there's a better game...) but I'm trying to find a suitable Vampire to play but maybe without all the baggage....

Let's see, correct me if I'm wrong, but you want to remove:
-Clans
-Covenants/Sects
-Humanity/Paths/Roads
-Frenzy
-Weakness to the sun (does that include the weakness to fire and stakes through the heart as well?)

Guess what, there's a vers (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/1124/World-of-Darkness-Rulebook?it=1&filters=0_0_1840_0_0)ion of the nWoD that includes none of them (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/114078/World-of-Darkness-GodMachine-Rules-Update?term=god+machine&filters=0_0_1840_0_0).

In all seriousness, some suggestions for a better game:
-Apocalypse Prevention Inc.
-GURPS
-Mutants & Masterminds
-d20 modern
-Fate

Bloodtomb

2015-07-10, 03:17 PM

That should be a simple thing to houserule out, it's not like you're removing something that'll often come up in play, and a GM can recycle the ravening beasts as something else. It seems rather petty to say no for something that probably won't happen to your character for a good few hundred years until after the game has ended.

But that possibility still exists which I rather not have at all.

Let's see, correct me if I'm wrong, but you want to remove:
-Clans
-Covenants/Sects
-Humanity/Paths/Roads
-Frenzy
-Weakness to the sun (does that include the weakness to fire and stakes through the heart as well?)

Actually I would keep the Covenants (which is close what I'm looking for) or something similar to how Dark Ages: Vampire has things but not the binary society of Masquerade's Camarailla and Sabbat though which both of them are very rigid.

Also I would keep the weakness to fire, stakes through the heart. Maybe there should be something where both sunlight weaknesses (from the burning in sunlight to the victorian mold where they weaken during sunlight) exists something like Vampires whose Blood Potency is below 5 tend to suffer from sunlight damage but any Vampire above 5 can walk in the sun but their powers are weaker during the day time.

Hmmm....

Anonymouswizard

2015-07-10, 03:28 PM

But that possibility still exists which I rather not have at all.

But you're fine houseruling out half the system for Vampires in WoD. You make no sense. As in this (------) is the amount of sense normal people make, this (--) is the amount of sense I make, and this () is the amount of sense I'm getting from this discussion.

Actually I would keep the Covenants (which is close what I'm looking for) or something similar to how Dark Ages: Vampire has things but not the binary society of Masquerade's Camarailla and Sabbat though which both of them are very rigid.

So why the insistence on Masquerade earlier in the thread?

Also I would keep the weakness to fire, stakes through the heart. Maybe there should be something where both sunlight weaknesses (from the burning in sunlight to the victorian mold where they weaken during sunlight) exists something like Vampires whose Blood Potency is below 5 tend to suffer from sunlight damage but any Vampire above 5 can walk in the sun but their powers are weaker during the day time.

Hmmm....

Here's the cannon for how vampire burn in sunlight by BP:
1-2: this isn't smoldering, I just sunburn within 10 minutes.
3: let me just dash across the street.
4-5: no!!!! The light, it burns!
6-7: run away from the light!
8-9: can we turn off the sun? Pretty Please?
10: less in the sun and more 'is a pile of ash'.
Mystery of the Ascendant: excuse me, just working on my sunwalking/just working on my tan (coil 5)

Closet_Skeleton

2015-07-10, 06:17 PM

This is largely because the thing vampires, mafias, and feudal lords all have in common is how they are all fairly dependent on tribute (be it blood, money or grain respectively)

The main similarity between Kings and Gangsters is that they are both running protection rackets.

Its part of why the Yakuza call themselves "the chivalrous ones" despite having their origins in people of low birth.

They also both rely on loyalty and being able to reward followers. Rather than merely collecting tribute and being the focus for societies wealth, a pre-modern King is in many ways more of a paymaster or treasurer who counts the loot so it can be shared out. The feudal system of stricter tributes and obligations developed as Kings became more settled and agricultural managers rather than warlords who could rely on income from military victories. Feudal tribute is in payment for land that the King has distributed among his followers, so really is a continuation of the King's 'sharing out the loot' role.

The Camarilla is partly just about keeping its idea of order. Its not that realistic as a Mafia/kingdom analogue because it doesn't control the flow of income and resources the way its inspirations do. It threatens its members with repercussions and force but lets them feed freely if sensibly.

The Camarilla (and to some degree, the Sabbat) in OWoD feels much more like a supernatural secret society as it's more organized on a global scale than real-world syndicates, and given their flavor it's very Illuminati-like.

Real world secret societies aren't exactly organised on a global scale either. Free Masonry is all about local lodges rather than wide influence. The places where the world's rich and powerful gather tend to just be very exclusive events rather than cabals with permanent membership.

In fact, I would venture to say none of them were, because that was a movie.

Absolute Monarchies (which are really post-feudal but still rackets because well, taxes in modern democracies aren't much better on the base level) didn't actually work that way either.

Gangs are most dramatic when they're at war and since wars only break out when the balance of power and alliances stops working it really isn't the (theoretical) normal status of the Mafia. Gangters are people who break the law when its bad for their business, they don't go around pursuing expensive conflicts that hurt business unless someone crazy ends in on top or extreme violence is already the norm due to other reasons.

LibraryOgre

2015-07-14, 06:29 PM

From what I gather by the blurb on the site, it isn't a game about the Apocalypse, but just a catchy name. I get the feeling that it's supposed to be more like a conspiracy-level game of Hunter: the Vigil (which I so need to get), with the API fighting against supernatural creatures that 'threaten' humanity. This could just be eating the occasional one, for all I know. I'll try casting Summon Mark Hall and see how wrong I am.

Nope, that's the thing. It's name is "Apocalypse Prevention, Inc.", but it's more like Buffy the Vampire Slayer (i.e. preventing multiple apocalypses as time goes on) or Men In Black, if played straight core style. I worked on a supplement for the game, and the included adventure I wrote involved tracking down kidnapped demons forced into the slave trade.

Sith_Happens

2015-07-14, 08:22 PM

Nope, that's the thing. It's name is "Apocalypse Prevention, Inc.", but it's more like Buffy the Vampire Slayer (i.e. preventing multiple apocalypses as time goes on) or Men In Black, if played straight core style. I worked on a supplement for the game, and the included adventure I wrote involved tracking down kidnapped demons forced into the slave trade.

Forcing demons into slavery? What could possibly go wrong?

LibraryOgre

2015-07-14, 09:03 PM

Forcing demons into slavery? What could possibly go wrong?

These particular demons are not too far from humans... save that they produce energy like a generator and that, with proper precautions, can be used to power a small, off-the-grid location at the cost of feeding an extra person.

Anonymouswizard

2015-07-15, 08:02 AM

Nope, that's the thing. It's name is "Apocalypse Prevention, Inc.", but it's more like Buffy the Vampire Slayer (i.e. preventing multiple apocalypses as time goes on) or Men In Black, if played straight core style. I worked on a supplement for the game, and the included adventure I wrote involved tracking down kidnapped demons forced into the slave trade.

Cool, I'd get it, but I still need to get a group together to run Eclipse Phase with before I can buy any more games. Is there a free quick-start pdf I can have a look at?

LibraryOgre

2015-07-15, 12:01 PM

Cool, I'd get it, but I still need to get a group together to run Eclipse Phase with before I can buy any more games. Is there a free quick-start pdf I can have a look at?

Not seeing one on a quick glance, unfortunately.

Thrudd

2015-07-17, 12:09 PM

Here's a question I've been willing to ask and wondering for a long time...

Is any of the Vampires (both from cWoD and nWoD) deserve any type of sympathy or is there any decent Vampires or all of them are irredeemable monsters that deserve to be destroyed?

Can the same apply to other supernaturals (Werewolves, Mages, Wraiths, Demons, Prometheans, Geists, Fae/Changelings, Beasts, Mummies, etc?).

That question is exactly the premise of those games. That's the issue you explore through playing, and the answer depends on what the players choose to do. The books and mechanics provide a framework where it can go either way depending on your choices and how you behave. It is a struggle for most to strive to maintain humanity in the face if their monstrous or incomprehensible natures.

Anonymouswizard

2015-07-17, 12:22 PM

That question is exactly the premise of those games. That's the issue you explore through playing, and the answer depends on what the players choose to do. The books and mechanics provide a framework where it can go either way depending on your choices and how you behave. It is a struggle for most to strive to maintain humanity in the face if their monstrous or incomprehensible natures.

You forgot to add the canon answer to are vampires monsters:

-It is easier than the other way.

The game doesn't actually mention whether or not most vampires are monsters, it just states 'a beast I am lest a beast I become' is easier.

Of course when you remove humanity, frenzy, and all that it becomes 'a beast I am because I don't care I'm off to bomb the white house, should be easy with five obfuscate, then I'll fly to London and hang out with some chicks, not like I'll accidentally drain them.'

Although I had a thought, if you moved constantly at the right speed away from the sun would you ever have to spend a Blood Point to rise?

Bloodtomb

2015-07-17, 12:36 PM

Actually I have a idea floating in my head that...

Well you see, I rather prefer that it's not the Vampirism itself that makes them monsters, but rather I would have it that some people are already monsters before they turned into a Vampire, so it leaves a lot of room for people who have vampirism who not monsters but just trying to survive and adjust to their condition which I'm not so sure the humanity/frenzy/beast allows this because it automatically casts Vampirism itself as monstrous even if person was previously not which is rather wrong.

Well point is, even original folklore supports this view that Revenants/Vampires who rise up are people who did what their medieval societies sensibilities defines as 'horrible deeds' (witchcraft, sins, etc) in life so which is what makes them 'monsters' or maybe alternatively flipping the medieval sensibilities around, what if the Vampires/Revenents are also people rebelling against the sensibilities of societies and are seen as 'monsters' from outside point of view but to others who don't buy into the sensibilities are actually not?

Anonymouswizard

2015-07-17, 12:44 PM

Actually I have a idea floating in my head that...

Well you see, I rather prefer that it's not the Vampirism itself that makes them monsters, but rather I would have it that some people are already monsters before they turned into a Vampire, so it leaves a lot of room for people who have vampirism who not monsters but just trying to survive and adjust to their condition which I'm not so sure the humanity/frenzy/beast allows this because it automatically casts Vampirism itself as monstrous even if person was previously not which is rather wrong.

I've run sessions where nobody ever had to roll for frenzy or derangement, and only exceptional circumstances should really push vampires below humanity five.

A monster who becomes a vampire will roll for degeneration more than someone just trying to survive, will have his virtue rolls to resist the beast capped, and start spending short amounts of time as a literal monster.

I also had a PC in a game who, due to being starving, had to make 3 self control rolls at difficulty 8 to avoid draining his meal dry. Annoying his player past every last one, due to 4/5 self control dice. Moral of the story? If you don't want to worry about frenzy in masquerade nab high courage and self-control.

Bloodtomb

2015-07-17, 01:12 PM

I've run sessions where nobody ever had to roll for frenzy or derangement, and only exceptional circumstances should really push vampires below humanity five.

A monster who becomes a vampire will roll for degeneration more than someone just trying to survive, will have his virtue rolls to resist the beast capped, and start spending short amounts of time as a literal monster.

I also had a PC in a game who, due to being starving, had to make 3 self control rolls at difficulty 8 to avoid draining his meal dry. Annoying his player past every last one, due to 4/5 self control dice. Moral of the story? If you don't want to worry about frenzy in masquerade nab high courage and self-control.

Then again though it also depends on what our society defines as a monster as well....

For example if I was playing a Dark Ages Vampire game, since I wouldn't agree what medieval societies definition of 'monster' would be so I guess I would be seen as a 'monster' because I'm 'rebelling' against the medieval sensibilities at the time (for example, Ancient Greece had a alot of female 'monsters' because they represent rebellion against the extremely patriarchal society that was established at the time).

So...I guess it means "monster" is a broad term that represents fear of the unknown and what we don't understand and despise what they fear just like the very concept of evil as well. So I think it's rather best that human society (well depending on what religious/political/economical the society is) might see Vampires as evil and monstrous because it harks back we fear what don't understand while others might see Vampires as welcoming as a means of transhumanism and breaking free of the shackles of mortality but in reality though, they're just people with their own goals and motivations and just trying to survive and preserve their immortality.

Basically what I'm asking for if it's possible to have a "Grey and Grey" world for vampire.

Well thinking back about the whole "Vampires have to be monstrous to preserve their immortality" thing...Maybe what I wrote represents a better understanding of it?

Anonymouswizard

2015-07-17, 01:40 PM

Basically what I'm asking for if it's possible to have a "Grey and Grey" world for vampire.

No, you want white and grey. In the presented setting for masquerade no character who isn't a Wight is truly evil, although occasionally insane.

Well thinking back about the whole "Vampires have to be monstrous to preserve their immortality" thing...Maybe what I wrote represents a better understanding of it?

Nobody has said that, we've just said that it's likely you will end up monstrous is you survive because that's easy. Likely a very grey monster.

Bloodtomb

2015-07-20, 10:10 AM

I was looking at this thread (https://forums.darklordpotter.net/showthread.php?t=7404) and maybe perhaps I found what I was trying to say about why I have a problem with VtM's vampires:

Remember, kids: canon V:TM is so damn emo it hurts. Perhaps the lack of a movie is a blessing in disguise.

"Congratulations, you're a vampire! You can't have sex any more, can't eat anything, can't drink anything other than blood, and are completely unable to feel genuine emotions! And just to make sure we've squeezed ALL the fun out of it, you now have a demon living in your soul that will eventually and inevitably drive you bat**** crazy!"

Sure, a lot of DMs will be happy to chuck out all that emo crap, but a movie will be forced to stay true to the source. No thanks.

Sex is technically possible for vampires - for the guys, it's just a matter of manipulating blood, and the girls just have to lie there - but there's little to no physical enjoyment, and sex with mortals is seen as a freakish thing to do. Not to mention that sex between vampires is looked upon as a Sabbat thing to do among the Camarilla... exchanging blood, and all that, since there's no other bodily fluids available to do the job.

Moving along, I'd say you've got a point, Nob. It all depends on the makers of the thing. If they want an emo cutfest, they've got all the ammo they need. Otherwise, they'll have to fiddle with canon a bit, which White Wolf may or may not like them doing... but since they've dumped Masquerade like a pregnant girlfriend, they might not even care.

So basically, VTM vampires can't have sex nor feel real emotions not to mention the 'beast within' is also a problem as well.

I guess if I was playing a WoD game and if I wanted to play a Vampire but didn't like how Vampires are written and presented in their own baseline, I guess I would have to pick another gameline like Mage or porting DA: Fae in the modern era for example and create a 'pretender' or change Vampire completely. Otherwise, vanilla Vampire as presented by White Wolf sound like they're unplayable and best presented as antagonists or common monsters treated the same as Beast's "heroes".

comicshorse

2015-07-20, 10:28 AM

So basically, VTM vampires can't have sex nor feel real emotions not to mention the 'beast within' is also a problem as well.

Yeah I don't know where they're getting that from as that isn't supported anywhere in VTM that I can think of. I think it might be the case for VTR but I've only been in one game of that and if it is canon the ST completely ignored it

Bloodtomb

2015-07-20, 10:32 AM

I think it might be the case for VTR

Yet everyone keeps pointing me to Requiem without this in mind however.....

Anonymouswizard

2015-07-20, 10:33 AM

Remember, kids: canon V:TM is so damn emo it hurts. Perhaps the lack of a movie is a blessing in disguise.

VtM is, at least in the early parts, as gothic as it is emo. I actually find very little emo in it, there's a decent idea that you should make something of your unlife instead of wangsting about how you aren't human anymore. I'd actually stick wangst on the hierarchy of sins, maybe path rating 3, for all paths, because of how much of an emphasis on not giving up there seems to be in vampire society. The 2e corebook at least assumes you'll spend more time seeking Golconda or Humanity rather than sitting in your black skull-filled room in sorrow.

"Congratulations, you're a vampire! You can't have sex any more, can't eat anything, can't drink anything other than blood, and are completely unable to feel genuine emotions! And just to make sure we've squeezed ALL the fun out of it, you now have a demon living in your soul that will eventually and inevitably drive you bat**** crazy!"

Not really getting why not having sex is meant to be a deal breaker, as that's a symptom of a larger problem, being unable to eat or drink anything is a bigger problem, but the Eat Food merit is cheap enough to be relatively common and the 2e version implies that it can be developed. The 'genuine emotion' thing is a strange one, as certainly many vampires do appear to have as much emotion as mortals do, and some seem to be able to put emotion into art (the Malkavians, the Nosferatu, but not the Toreador), it might just be the lack of brain chemistry is softening them, but I can't see any evidence for that, and if vampires are emotionless, where does all the ambition come from?

the 'demon thing' is, depending on interpretation, a unintelligent thing that only pipes up to deal with hunger or danger (which is why Wights have a motivation of 'hunt, kill, sleep, repeat'), and if you stay full you'll probably only have to deal with it about as often as a human gets angry. Just think of it as heightened hunger and heightened fear. The Beast doesn't want to kill, it does so by accident, it just wants to survive. You could do a great metaphor for a mental illness that waxes and wanes, making the suffer cause more damage than they intend, with it.

Sure, a lot of DMs will be happy to chuck out all that emo crap, but a movie will be forced to stay true to the source. No thanks.

I'm not really seeing how it's all 'emo' by definition, and not all of it is true! (Just look at the Nossies!) You know, there's a lot of death in war, which has a profound psychological impact on surviving family members, so we should stop making war films.

Sex is technically possible for vampires - for the guys, it's just a matter of manipulating blood, and the girls just have to lie there - but there's little to no physical enjoyment, and sex with mortals is seen as a freakish thing to do. Not to mention that sex between vampires is looked upon as a Sabbat thing to do among the Camarilla... exchanging blood, and all that, since there's no other bodily fluids available to do the job.

Moving along, I'd say you've got a point, Nob. It all depends on the makers of the thing. If they want an emo cutfest, they've got all the ammo they need. Otherwise, they'll have to fiddle with canon a bit, which White Wolf may or may not like them doing... but since they've dumped Masquerade like a pregnant girlfriend, they might not even care.

Oh boy, the first thing here is that the girls will have to manipulate blood as well, and the 'physical enjoyment' thing is part of a whole 'reduced sensation' package that the rules at least imply isn't there (wound penalties). You can either view it as it just not being enjoyable, or you can view it as blood drinking being more enjoyable. If it wasn't for the pesky Blood Bond then mutual feeding would probably be vampire sex.

Although, if two 15th generation vampires of opposite genders had their equipment working at the same time, and the woman became pregnant, would the child be a 15th generation vampire or a dhampyr?

comicshorse

2015-07-20, 10:35 AM

Yet everyone keeps pointing me to Requiem without this in mind however.....

Well its fairly easy to ignore as my ST did

TheCountAlucard

2015-07-20, 10:36 AM

The notion that Kindred don't feel emotions is pretty silly - what is a Frenzy if not an expression of rage? What is Rotschreck if not a Kindred's most primal fear? Would desperation rooted in hunger look different from Wassail?

That is to say, a Kindred feels emotion. It's just that their experience is going to be a little different from ours; for one, negative emotions are felt much more strongly, enough such that they need to keep it in check at all times.

Anonymouswizard

2015-07-20, 10:39 AM

The notion that Kindred don't feel emotions is pretty silly - what is a Frenzy if not an expression of rage? What is Rotschreck if not a Kindred's most primal fear? Would desperation rooted in hunger look different from Wassail?

That is to say, a Kindred feels emotion. It's just that the negative emotions are felt much more strongly, enough such that they need to keep it in check at all times.

TheCountAlucard here has pretty much got it, the Beast is arguably more strengthened negative emotions than anything like a Wraith's Shadow.

Plus, without real emotions you'd pretty much only have one available character concept.

comicshorse

2015-07-20, 10:43 AM

[QUOTE=Anonymouswizard;19556871The 2e corebook at least assumes you'll spend more time seeking Golconda or Humanity rather than sitting in your black skull-filled room in sorrow.

[/QUOTE]

Y'know I've been playing Vampire since the first book came out and I've NEVER seen anybody play a character like this. I can't help wondering if there is any truth behind this particular cliche

Anonymouswizard

2015-07-20, 10:54 AM

Y'know I've been playing Vampire since the first book came out and I've NEVER seen anybody play a character like this. I can't help wondering if there is any truth behind this particular cliche

Are you referring to the Humanity/Golconda seeker or the angsty vampire angsting over his horrible experience?

Because I've never seen either. Most players characters default to either 'I'm a vampire, wooooo! No Mr Policeman, I do not know why this guy is unconscious in the alley' or 'oh, I'm a vampire, well, when life gives you lemons, make lemon grenades'.

I know my planned characters are:
Masquerade
-A Nosferatu warrrenmaster.
-A depressive Malkavian jack-of-all-trades.
-A Ventrue club owner with his fingers in more places than members of his club.

Requiem
-A Mekhet of the Ordo Dracul who seeks to become immune to the sun, and is researching spirits to that end.
-A Carthian Mekhet firebrand.
-An Invictus Nosferatu playing the slow game towards becoming prince. He's always clad in a tattered suit, and his very presence makes reflective surfaces mist, including his eyes.

comicshorse

2015-07-20, 11:38 AM

Anonymouswizard

2015-07-20, 11:52 AM

I meant 'the angsty vampire, endlessly bemoaning his life' bit. I actually played along with a guy whose PC was seeking Golconda, though his character didn't believe it would make him human just free him from his Beast.

I might see the Golconda seeker eventually, but I have trouble getting people interested in games where combat isn't the sole focus (which is half the reason people decided to dump my GURPS campaign, it would have reduced combat to a secondary role :smallmad:). Also, that is the official story as to what Golconda does in Masquerade, in 1e Requiem it is all up in the air, and in 2e it was thankfully removed (Golconda makes for sense to me when you can seek it for several centuries without falling asleep).

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2015-07-20, 02:42 PM

Requiem only has emotionless vampires in the first half of first edition. Later books stopped treating vampires that way, and second edition dropped it altogether.

Bloodtomb

2015-07-20, 07:34 PM

I don't know if anyone has ever explored this concept but, has anyone thought of a "WoD vs X-Men" setting where Vampires who are the PCs up against Mutants/X-Men as the antagonists? Well actually within context, I'm only using the X-Men as presented from the original trilogy (up until the Last Stand) which Mutants are scientific in origin while Vampires and such are actual supernaturals.

I think it's a fascinating concept while the world fears and hates Mutants but yet Vampires and other supernaturals still remain hidden (although maybe Mutants/X-Men can sense their presence though...).

Basically what I'm going at is a Brujah vampire firing a 'mutant cure' dart from the Last Stand, 'curing' the mutant and then the Vampire just yanks their jaw bone and ram it their eye socket and feed on their blood and repeat the combo, especially Vampires are immune to mutant cures if the SWAT shoots them with it mistaken them as Mutants even though they're not.

hrm...

Anonymouswizard

2015-07-20, 08:05 PM

Sith_Happens

2015-07-20, 08:33 PM

I meant 'the angsty vampire, endlessly bemoaning his life' bit. I actually played along with a guy whose PC was seeking Golconda, though his character didn't believe it would make him human just free him from his Beast.

Question: what happens to a vampire in a tanning bed? Because I suddenly have the idea for a vampire who was a tanning addict in life and constantly bemoans that he can never get his fix again.:smalltongue:

TheCountAlucard

2015-07-20, 08:34 PM

For Vampire: the Masquerade, even one of the Antediluvians rising is pretty much the End Times.

For the X-Men (or indeed pretty much the whole Marvel universe, comics or cinematic), that's "Tuesday."

Bloodtomb

2015-07-20, 08:38 PM

Sounds as boring as vampire without humanity, frenzy, or the Beast.

In all seriousness, vampires are screwed. Even before ones who do 'freaky solar stuff' turn up (it'll happen eventually), a good number of mutants are on the Mage (both WoD) power level (off the top of my head Professor X, Pheonix, Magneto, Scarlet Witch, and higher powered quicksilver are definitely there), and several are at least above the Werewolf power level (Wolverine is the obvious example). Unlike Mages mutants can pull out strong abilities within 6 seconds. Vampires get hunted down and dusted during the day, while only mutants with good sense type powers would be out at night after the vampires are uncovered. But the key thing is, the mutants just run on a completely different power level, get Scarlet Witch to use her powers successfully and BAM! no more supernaturals.

Well I'm not taking the comics into consideration though, I'm only strictly using the original X-Men trilogy films as a inspiration and presenting them as sort of a recent invention (ignoring the history involving Apocalypse and the comic's origins of Mutants and plus ignoring the Marvel universe as well) which Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver don't exist (and plus as far I'm aware, Scarlet Witch is a mutate not a mutant which are completely different things). Or in short, just mixing Earth-10005 (http://marvel.wikia.com/Earth-10005) (well just focusing on the original trilogy and ignoring the recent films) with the WoD...

Like I said before, Mutants maybe powerful but there's also a 'cure' for them and when hit by them, they just get reduced into a normal human being which allows Vampires (and other Supernaturals) have a huge advantage over them.

Although if the full package is considered though (the comics, etc) I wonder what Supernaturals would actually stand a change against Mutants and Mutates? Methuselah/Antediluvian leveled Vampires, (although I forgot a high leveled Werewolf is called), a Arch Mage, a Firstborn DA: Fae?

TheCountAlucard

2015-07-20, 08:41 PM

Question: what happens to a vampire in a tanning bed? Because I suddenly have the idea for a vampire who was a tanning addict in life and constantly bemoans that he can never get his fix again.:smalltongue:If I recall correctly, Kindred don't give a poop about ultraviolet radiation - their reaction to sunlight is the result of a supernatural curse placed on them from on high (or otherwise comes from a supernatural source for you non-Noddists). Likewise their blood is mystically consumed to power their Disciplines and such - we don't have to worry about the Law of Conservation of Matter here.*

Incidentally if it was UV light Kindred had to worry about, the moon would be skin-blisteringly painful for them.

*Meyerpires, on the other hand, would logically reach a density exceeding that of uranium after a thousand years of feeding without peeing or pooping or sweating or otherwise shedding matter, since they don't swell like blood-filled ticks after feeding.

Anonymouswizard

2015-07-20, 09:04 PM

Well I'm not taking the comics into consideration though, I'm only strictly using the original X-Men trilogy films as a inspiration and presenting them as sort of a recent invention (ignoring the history involving Apocalypse and the comic's origins of Mutants and plus ignoring the Marvel universe as well) which Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver don't exist (and plus as far I'm aware, Scarlet Witch is a mutate not a mutant which are completely different things). Or in short, just mixing Earth-10005 (http://marvel.wikia.com/Earth-10005) (well just focusing on the original trilogy and ignoring the recent films) with the WoD...

Like I said before, Mutants maybe powerful but there's also a 'cure' for them and when hit by them, they just get reduced into a normal human being which allows Vampires (and other Supernaturals) have a huge advantage over them.

Although if the full package is considered though (the comics, etc) I wonder what Supernaturals would actually stand a change against Mutants and Mutates? Methuselah/Antediluvian leveled Vampires, (although I forgot a high leveled Werewolf is called), a Arch Mage, a Firstborn DA: Fae?

If we are arbitrarily ejecting films from our 'canon' (which sounds like a poot excuse to avoid preventions for the cure) I recommend X3, because otherwise Phoenix rotflstomps the entire world of darkness and calls it a day. Otherwise, expect mutants to armour up to reduce the effectiveness of cure darts, and eyebeam the vampires.

A Brujah focused on combat would probably win in a fight with most mutants because most mutants are weak, but they are outnumbered by scholar Brujah (who still kick arse), who are outnumbered by the other clans, maybe 2/13 vampires have a combat focus, at best (I actually peg it at 1/13, Sabbat just have a lot of vamps who can fight, they don't have more combat focused vamps). This means we have a number of combat focused vamps a bit larger than our 'power mutants' core.

To be honest, your best bet as a Vampire is the following strategy:
1) Dominate 1: 'surrender'.
2) Dominate 3: remove all knowledge of vampires.
3) Dominate 2: 'never interact with me again'.

Sith_Happens

2015-07-21, 12:23 AM

If I recall correctly, Kindred don't give a poop about ultraviolet radiation - their reaction to sunlight is the result of a supernatural curse placed on them from on high (or otherwise comes from a supernatural source for you non-Noddists). Likewise their blood is mystically consumed to power their Disciplines and such - we don't have to worry about the Law of Conservation of Matter here.

Okay, so a tanning bed wouldn't kill them, but would it work on them (as in give them a tan)?

Rater202

2015-07-21, 12:29 AM

Well, in NWOD, Ultraviolet light can still trigger fear frenzies(Hunter has rules for modified flashbangs that give off UV rays) so being tied down and trapped in a tanning bed would probably be some kind of torture, but otherwise...

comicshorse

2015-07-21, 06:29 AM

Okay, so a tanning bed wouldn't kill them, but would it work on them (as in give them a tan)?

I can't think that of it would and even if it did temporarily the Kindred's body would re-set every new day and so would instantly lose the tan
Sufficiently high Viccistude would enable him to alter his skin colour though so you just got to make friends with a Tszimisce :smallcool:

Anonymouswizard

2015-07-21, 07:02 AM

I can't think that of it would and even if it did temporarily the Kindred's body would re-set every new day and so would instantly lose the tan
Sufficiently high Viccistude would enable him to alter his skin colour though so you just got to make friends with a Tszimisce :smallcool:

Or just do it long enough to deal a point of damage, and never heal it :smalltongue:

Sith_Happens

2015-07-21, 08:32 AM

I can't think that of it would and even if it did temporarily the Kindred's body would re-set every new day and so would instantly lose the tan

So the character concept still works!:smallwink:

Brother Oni

2015-07-21, 08:51 AM

Or just do it long enough to deal a point of damage, and never heal it :smalltongue:

There's a difference between bronzed greek god and British tourist lobster red. :smalltongue:

Anonymouswizard

2015-07-21, 09:08 AM

There's a difference between bronzed greek god and British tourist lobster red. :smalltongue:

That reminds me, I should get out of the sun. :smallwink:

Although it does make the Chinese ladies who come to England looking for the vampires completely jealous. Seriously, some young Chinese people think England is vampire central, must be all the lobster red British tourists.

comicshorse

2015-07-21, 09:46 AM

There's a difference between bronzed greek god and British tourist lobster red. :smalltongue:

As an Englishman may I say that I resemble that remark :smallsmile:

Beleriphon

2015-07-21, 11:49 AM

To be honest, your best bet as a Vampire is the following strategy:
1) Dominate 1: 'surrender'.
2) Dominate 3: remove all knowledge of vampires.
3) Dominate 2: 'never interact with me again'.

Or, you know Magneto drops the Golden Gate Bridge on a vampire. I mean no big deal right?

The power differential between the mutants in the X-Men movies and the vampires in VtM are enormous. Even the weakest of the mutant outshines most vampires in just straight up asskicking abilities. So what if a Nosie can turn invisible, a Venture can control minds, or a Brujah can punch dudes extra hard, Nightcrawler can teleport into the sewer at noon, grab some schlubs and teleport out making those vamps crispy critters.

If you get into werewolves you have it even worse. Wolverine is basically a WoD werewolf without any of the drawbacks, never mind that Magneto can control werewolves greatest weakness with his mind.

Anonymouswizard

2015-07-21, 12:05 PM

Or, you know Magneto drops the Golden Gate Bridge on a vampire. I mean no big deal right?

The power differential between the mutants in the X-Men movies and the vampires in VtM are enormous. Even the weakest of the mutant outshines most vampires in just straight up asskicking abilities. So what if a Nosie can turn invisible, a Venture can control minds, or a Brujah can punch dudes extra hard, Nightcrawler can teleport into the sewer at noon, grab some schlubs and teleport out making those vamps crispy critters.

If you get into werewolves you have it even worse. Wolverine is basically a WoD werewolf without any of the drawbacks, never mind that Magneto can control werewolves greatest weakness with his mind.

I should point out I did make this argument, but Bloodtomb thinks that the mutant cure solves the fact that any mutants you'd want to use it on are running at at least the mid-werewolf level, and the most troublesome (Phoenix) is as close to immune as makes no difference. And without the cure a mutant in the films just flat out beats a vampire in their area of expertise, as the films left out the really unlucky mutants for those with lame powers.

You know how a Celerity 5 vampire basically destroys everyone else in combat (oWoD)? They still aren't moving as fast as Age of Ultron Quicksilver (I liked him, he was fast but just about beatable), let alone what I've heard of Days of Future Past Quicksilver.