3.P - Mundane into Gish with minimum spellcasting levels

[Red Rubber Band]

Using Pathfinder and 3.5 I'm looking to start with a non-ToB, mundane character and turn him/her into a non-psionic gish with minimum spellcasting levels. The main gish class (Abjurant Champion for example) would need to have 3/4 to full BAB and close to full casting.

The casting side of things can be from any divine/arcane class, though ones that are naturally better at blasting (I didn't stutter) are preferred. If not blasting, the more dice I can roll when casting a spell the better.

Lactose intolerance is a thing for this build.

Usual entry into Abjurant Champion I've seen is Wizard 5/Full BAB 1 but I'd prefer less levels of Wizard. Is there a way (short of early entry via Daylight SLA - no cheese, remember) to enter a gish class with these preferences?

TL;DR version. I need a gish prestige class with: minimum caster entry requirements (eg 2nd level spells); minimum 3/4 BAB; minimum 7/10 casting progression; no psionics or ToB; more dice when casting a spell is preferred. No cheese.

Or, as Extra Anchovies put it:


So you want a build that starts martial, dips caster for as few levels as possible, then enters a PrC with average or better BAB and 7/10 or better casting.

Edit: Updated requirements. Fixed abbreviation :smalltongue:

[Xerlith]

What do you mean "minimum spellcaster levels"? Because the minimum spellcaster level is either 0 or 1, and these can be obtained by, well, not being a spellcaster. A Paladin 20 is a minimum, full BAB spellcaster. So is Ranger. Fighter 19/Wizard1 even more so.

Bad jokes aside, try Duskblade 20. Melee blasting only, blasting nonetheless. Easy to pretend you're NOT a spellcaster early on.
Or, better, a Magus. Standard Magical Lineage Shocking Grasp with Intensify Spell allows you to throw around up to 10d6 Grasps. The Magus's inherently more versatile, and better at the Duskblade's main schtick (Spell Channeling). YMMV, though. You may start with the first two levels being a Lore Warden Fighter or something. How many "mundane" levels are enough for you?

I will make this disclaimer now: You're either mundane first and then gishy, or you can blast. Most of the time.
And you have only one Standard per round, which you can use to either blast or attack with weapons, if you're not going to spell-channel.
Bear with me, but I found myself questioning the point of making a character that will have to compromise on both, so they can compete for the same action and, well, not be as good as they'd be if you focused on one.

Fighter2/Crossblooded Sorcerer (Orc, Dragon) 1/Magus 12/Abjurant Champion 5?

Oh, this one.

Battle Dancer 1/Hit-And-Run Fighter2/Paladin2/Bard 2/Suel Arcanamach 4/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion5/Sacred Exorcist 3. 16 BAB, 9th level spells, mundane beginnings, good saves, good AC. Use PF Bard to grab Dawnflower Dervish for Dex to hit and damage with a Scimitar. Only shortcoming is the nonexistent pre-SC blasting.

[Extra Anchovies]

Using Pathfinder and 3.5 I'm looking to start with a non-ToB, mundane character and turn him/her into a non-psionic gish with minimum spellcasting levels. The main gish class (Abjurant Champion for example) would need to have 3/4 to full BAB and close to full casting.

The casting side of things can be from any divine/arcane class, though ones that are naturally better at blasting (I didn't stutter) are preferred. If not blasting, the more dice I can roll when casting a spell the better.

Lactose intolerance is a thing for this build.

Usual entry into Abjurant Champion I've seen is Wizard 5/Full BAB 1 but I'd prefer less levels of Wizard. Is there a way (short of early entry via Daylight SLA - no cheese, remember) to enter a gish class with these preferences?

TL;DR version. I need a gish prestige class with: minimum caster entry requirements (e.g. 2nd level spells); minimum 3/4 BAB; minimum 7/10 casting progression; no psionics or ToB; more dice when casting a spell is preferred. No cheese.

Edit: Updated requirements.

I fixed your latin abbreviation; "i.e." means "that is", while "e.g." means "for example".

Anyways.

So you want a build that starts martial, dips caster for as few levels as possible, then enters a PrC with average or better BAB and 7/10 or better casting.

[Full BAB class] 5/Wizard 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Raumathari Battlemage 9 gets +16 BAB, or +18 with Practiced Spellcaster thanks to Martial Arcanist, and has 14/20 casting (CL 18 with Practiced Spellcaster). I'd recommend moving the last AbjChamp level to the end of the build, though, because it's nice to get the Raumathari Battlemage's Battle Spells a little earlier.

[Red Rubber Band]

Frick. Lost everything I had typed. Apologies for brevity.


What do you mean "minimum spellcaster levels"? Because the minimum spellcaster level is either 0 or 1, and these can be obtained by, well, not being a spellcaster. A Paladin 20 is a minimum, full BAB spellcaster. So is Ranger. Fighter 19/Wizard1 even more so.

Bad jokes aside, try Duskblade 20. Melee blasting only, blasting nonetheless. Easy to pretend you're NOT a spellcaster early on.
Or, better, a Magus. Standard Magical Lineage Shocking Grasp with Intensify Spell allows you to throw around up to 10d6 Grasps. The Magus's inherently more versatile, and better at the Duskblade's main schtick (Spell Channeling). YMMV, though. You may start with the first two levels being a Lore Warden Fighter or something. How many "mundane" levels are enough for you?

I will make this disclaimer now: You're either mundane first and then gishy, or you can blast. Most of the time.
And you have only one Standard per round, which you can use to either blast or attack with weapons, if you're not going to spell-channel.
Bear with me, but I found myself questioning the point of making a character that will have to compromise on both, so they can compete for the same action and, well, not be as good as they'd be if you focused on one.

Fighter2/Crossblooded Sorcerer (Orc, Dragon) 1/Magus 12/Abjurant Champion 5?

Oh, this one.

Battle Dancer 1/Hit-And-Run Fighter2/Paladin2/Bard 2/Suel Arcanamach 4/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion5/Sacred Exorcist 3. 16 BAB, 9th level spells, mundane beginnings, good saves, good AC. Use PF Bard to grab Dawnflower Dervish for Dex to hit and damage with a Scimitar. Done.

As Extra Anchovies said: a build that starts martial, dips caster for as few levels as possible, then enters a PrC with average or better BAB and 7/10 or better casting.
Duskblade's spell list is too limited.
I understand the pitfalls of this build, thank you for pointing them out though.
Will look at the Magus class before passing judgement. 2nd build has too many dips. Classes equal jobs/backgrounds in this campaign. Thanks for the suggestions.


I fixed your latin abbreviation; "i.e." means "that is", while "e.g." means "for example".

Anyways.

So you want a build that starts martial, dips caster for as few levels as possible, then enters a PrC with average or better BAB and 7/10 or better casting.

[Full BAB class] 5/Wizard 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Raumathari Battlemage 9 gets +16 BAB, or +18 with Practiced Spellcaster thanks to Martial Arcanist, and has 14/20 casting (CL 18 with Practiced Spellcaster). I'd recommend moving the last AbjChamp level to the end of the build, though, because it's nice to get the Raumathari Battlemage's Battle Spells a little earlier.
Whoops.
Yes.
Hmm. I don't believe DM has Unapproachable East. Oh well, I may put it to him, see what he says. Thanks for the suggestions.

[Rubik]

Too bad you specified "no psionics" and "no cheese," because you could have every spell and power in the game and a full ML 20 by level 20 with just a single level in ardent and a single feat.

[iDesu]

Would spellthief (or rogue) / Arcanist (if you don't want wizard) / Unseen Seer / Abjurant champion fit what you're looking for?

[Karl Aegis]

Paladin 5 / High One Warrior Wizard 5 / Eldritch Knight 10

I'm helping.

[Extra Anchovies]

Too bad you specified "no psionics" and "no cheese," because you could have every spell and power in the game and a full ML 20 by level 20 with just a single level in ardent and a single feat.

What's the feat, if I may ask?

[torrasque666]

I mean, you could use Soulborn (I know, I know) for the one thing its good for. Suel Arcanamach. Its an arcane caster, it shares a feat with AbjChamp, you can get a nice caster level with it, and you can still get an almost full BAB with it.

[Rubik]

What's the feat, if I may ask?Supernatural Transformation (Psionics). It boosts your ML to your HD, along with some really nice other benefits.

[Spore]

I am intrigued that no one has mentioned Dragon Disciple. They need a whopping single level in a casting class although if you want to blast several levels in draconic sorcerer would be advised.

[Rubik]

I am intrigued that no one has mentioned Dragon Disciple.Given all the problems with the class, most of us were trying to forget.

So, y'know, thanks for that.

[atemu1234]

I am intrigued that no one has mentioned Dragon Disciple. They need a whopping single level in a casting class although if you want to blast several levels in draconic sorcerer would be advised.

Does make me wonder how powerful this build can be.

[Glimbur]

I mean, you could use Soulborn (I know, I know) for the one thing its good for. Suel Arcanamach. Its an arcane caster, it shares a feat with AbjChamp, you can get a nice caster level with it, and you can still get an almost full BAB with it.

I came here to recommend Suel Arcanamach. It's far from the best gish class, but it's easy to enter with little previous spellcasting.

[Spore]

Does make me wonder how powerful this build can be.

He does not want cheese nor take part in anyhting higher than T3. I guess a Dragon Disciple is a worthy candidate (Pathfinder version that is).

[Red Rubber Band]

Thanks for the ideas everyone. Each of the prestige classes has me intrigued in different ways. Are there many classes other than Suel Arcanamach that lower arcane spell failure?

Is there a way to get sneak attack/skirmish/the like to casting? I have a feeling there's a way to add it to ray spells. I ask because I would like help with optimising the number of dice to be rolled when casting a spell. The more dice to be rolled with a spell, the better. The dice can be d2s for all I care.

The build will inevitably follow the rules in the OP, but don't feel you need to be constrained by them this time. I'm looking for feats and classes that allow me to add more and more dice.

[Rebel7284]

You can apply sneak attack to anything that has an attack roll. You do not need any special classes for that. However, certain classes fit that concept better.

For example:
Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 2/Spellwarp Sniper 5.

Use advanced learning to pick up the ranger spell Hunter's Eye to give you tons more sneak attack. Make everything into rays with bonus damage.

Spellthief is also a good sneak attacking class and with Master Spellthief tends to boost caster level and allows for stealing spells of any level. However, it's harder to meet the skill prerequisites for Unseen Seer with it from what I recall.

Of course Arcane Trickster can be used to finish any of the builds with sneak attack.