Forgelock

[DurionArcanis]

Any tips on building a Forgelock? (Warforged Warlock)

Currently have for the most part everything official (including Dragon Mag within reason) available to me, and we're working under Partial Gestalt rules (T1/2 no Gestalt, T3/4 Gestalt w/NPC class, T5/6 Gestalt w/NPC+T5/6).

I was considering going Warlock//Warrior. Trying not to uberoptimize but if I'm going melee I'm going to need that full BAB. Glaivelock is the most likely to work, though if I can get Eldritch Claws allowed I may dip Totemist or something to enhance that. I'm considering a Warblade dip for obvious reasons as well.

I've also considered taking the Spellfire feat (which was updated to reactive absorption) and dipping Spellfire Channeler for a side of healing, but I'm not sure if it's worth it.

Currently our group consists of two people so everyone kinda has to pull double duty. We might get more players but I can't be sure and I don't know what they'll decide to play.


Other Game Info (Including Banned Content)
Banned Classes: Artificer, Erudite, Archivist, Planar Shepard, Truenamer, Incantatrix, Dweomerkeeper
Banned Spells: Wish, Polymorph Any Object, Limited Wish, Time Stop, Miracle, Reality Revision, True Resurrection
Banned Alignments: Any Evil

Any unusual/special requirements are negotiable, including (but not limited to) Alignment, Racial, and Regional.

Skills have been tweaked towards the direction of Pathfinder slightly, so it's much easier to have a decent skillset.
Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information - Social Interaction (Cha)
Hide, Move Silently - Stealth (Dex)
Listen, Search, Spot - Perception (Wis)
Balance, Tumble - Acrobatics (Dex)
Climb, Jump, Swim - Athletics (Str)
Disable Device, Open Lock - Disable Device (Dex)

Leadership has been nerfed. No followers and cohort must be T3 or below. I believe they're allowed to Partial Gestalt still but noone's tried it yet.

LA Buyoff is negotiable, not a guarantee.

RHD are considered T4 unless otherwise stated. Bloodline levels may be taken, they're considered T4 for the purposes of Gestalting.

One Flaw, Two Traits

[Uncle Pine]

General advices work well for a Warforged Warlock, as it's not too different from a <instert another race> Warlock. the //Warrior half doesn't add much either, except that you'll have better BAB and Fort (all good things for a melee Warlock).

That said, have (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=8n14hsgatsv1r8c924m1ckged4&topic=2997) some (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?252715-The-New-Warlock-Handbook-3-5-WIP) nice (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?159708-Shinken-s-Guide-to-Melee-Warlocks) handbooks (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1110396).


EDIT: Here's a metagame suggestion: it's pretty easy to get humongous damage bonuses with both Glaivelocks and Clawlocks, but try not to overdo it. You're a two-men party and if you do too much damage you'll soon find yourselves dealing with over-CRed creatures with tons of hit points that will probably OHKO both of you. I know you mentioned that you don't want to uberoptimize but since even simple things like Eldritch Claws+Beast Strike+Superior Unarmed Strike+Greater Mighty Wallop could screw things up with some DMs especially in a two-men party scenario I felt I should've mentioned it.

[DurionArcanis]

Well two of those handbooks I didn't have so thanks for those at least.

And yeah, I realize it's easy to stack some massive damage potential onto it, I've built some similar Eldritch Claws builds that were... well to put it simply calling them a critter blender was an understatement lol. I'm trying to avoid that but still keep some solid power and versatility. Not to mention certain dips would draw away from the Warlock's power.

Of course there's the Gundam route too, flight and glaive.

One of the problems I keep having with the Warlock though is the versatility. Any ways to increase the amount of things they can actually do? Any classes that you'd recommend that make a good dip that add a bunch of options without overpowering? (Martial classes are one of the obvious routes but yeah)

[nerghull]

Personnaly I increase versatility with staves. And wands. But mostly staves.

Then again, my DM allows custom staves with only one spell.

Gauntlets of blast barrier and fey heritage feats are neat too.

[Uncle Pine]

UMD is possibly one of the best way to increase versatility and Warlocks are great at that, but if you need even more versatility it would help to know what kind of character (RP-wise) you have in mind. When I think about Warforged Warlock I instantly think "Iron Man" and usually go crazy with custom wondrous items via Create Wondrous Item, but your idea is probably different. I'm not familiar with Gundam though (except for the fact that they're humongous mechas), so I can't help with that.

TL;DR What character do you have in mind, beyond class features and feats?

[DurionArcanis]

UMD/Gear Shenanigans is a huge plus of course.

I can't go with the ubercrafter without being Human sadly, so that's kinda out of the question unless I can figure something out to get into Chameleon.

I was thinking though to go somewhat tanky (high Con, some Spellfire for absorbing spells, maybe that redirect Luck feat for in a pinch).

I'm honestly not too sure which direction I want to go for sure though. The idea of a Warforged Warlock can include everything from Iron Man to Mega Man to Gundam (and your analysis of Gundam is pretty accurate btw, I'm not a huge mecha fan but sometimes they're fun). I was hoping for some decent clues with what direction to take him since the other guy in the group is pretty flexible (he makes hundreds of characters just for ****s and giggles, and is very much the type to have fun with whatever he settled into it seems). Because of us both being kinda flexible and polite and the like we've spent hours just going back and forth asking each other what they wanted lmao.

[Ellowryn]

Have the other guy go Clericzilla. While your construct immunities and bonus to Con are nice you are still pretty much a rogue in melee i.e. I can take a single hit or 2 but oh god please don't focus me. If you want, you could do rogue/warlock/mindbender/assassin/unseen seer to be skill-monkey-ish/sneaky while the other guy plays bruiser.

Warrior on the other side is nice as the bonus to saves and BaB does wonders, but even then i would doubt it would be considered overpowered or even heavily optimized.

[Darkweave31]

So I'm not sure what you're planning to get from warlock... Is it lasers and beam swords?

If you're going for a self augmenting fantasy robot why not artificer instead of warlock. This assumes your DM will allow downtime for crafting, but even if not there are plenty of advantages artificer has over warlock when it comes to versatility and gear.

You could also try psychic warrior and a king of smack build if you like natural weapon fighters. You could even refluff Elan (race) as an experimental bioweapon. They aren't far off that mark. Grab a blast power for your lasers.

Or, if your DM is willing to allow homebrew, Tome of Radiance (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258654-Tome-of-Radiance-Mastering-the-Power-of-Love-and-Justice) is very well balanced and can be refluffed to fit a wide variety of character concepts. Champion makes a great tank and blaster.

[DurionArcanis]

A heavy Con focus and Warrior will make me sturdy, I know that much. Not just a bonus to Con, but as Warlock doesn't technically need any stat (Cha affects DC's but you can skip DC related stuff, and Dex helps to hit but you don't even need that as much due to Touch attacks) I can pump Con. Spellfire is very Con centric so I planned on making that my primary stat regardless (and if I need a bit more oomph in a fight I can always blast with that).

>Clericzilla
That'd be a no. We're trying to avoid T1 classes altogether, and I highly doubt he'd want to go that route even if we weren't. We're both of the opinion that T1 (and even T2) tend to be boring to play.

>Artificer
See above. Also, Artificer was banned (I did mention that in the spoiler in the OP post)

Crafting and the like in general are fun and all but we're not exactly sure about the downtime involved in this game.

There's also the pure Spellfire focused route, though I don't know what else synergizes well with high Con and will allow me to charge myself if I'm heavily focused on it. Hence focusing more on something else and using Spellfire for emergencies. Though if someone has a suggestion for that route I'm interested as well.

Admittedly part of the reason I've picked Warlock is that I'm a bit fanboy for the class. That and DFA. I like my non-caster blasters I guess lol. Never was a fan of legit fullcasters (save for the Shadowcaster, but that class is such a disappointment unless you homebrew it up a bit).

For some context, we're playing a very urban campaign (as in, your characters become unplayable if they are forced to leave the city). There's a DM homebrew race that is persecuted heavily (read "killed on sight") and we were given the option to either work towards helping them or destroying them. We chose helping, so a heavy part of the campaign is going to be sabotaging the government's attempts to find/kill this race, breaking free what few prisoners are kept for various experimentation purposes, sneaking free ones out of the city, and trying to find a way to change the law (long term, very ambiguous on how we're going to approach this part right now).

An alternate build concept I've considered
I've considered a Beguiler (they're pretty primed for this afterall) but they don't really have the damage potential or healing, they're pretty much skillmonkey/diplomancer/sneak with a bit of magic. Unless the other guy definitely goes tanky heal/buff and we try to finesse our way out of most battles fights are gonna be pretty hard. If I must I can always go Adept as the gestalt for some minor healing but still.

EDIT: >Tome of Radiance
I'll ask my DM about it, but one thing I've noticed is that Tiers aren't noted. What Tier would each class be considered? If I ask him I'd like to present the approximate tier of each one. Due to the Partial Gestalt ruling you can really narrow it down to High (T1/2), Mid (T3/4) and Low (T5/6), though any info for Tiers will help. He tends to get a little iffy if there isn't Tier info on something.

[RoyVG]

I never got around playing a 'forged Warlock, or any warlock for that matter so I'm pretty inexperienced with it.

With regards to the Tome of Radiance, I think the Champion, the one you would likely be using, is solid tier 3, with maybe a few hickups to tier 4 if you make some poor choices. You wil probably more Charisma if you take that route. It requires a little bit of micromanagement, but not much more than an Incarnate or Totemist.

[bekeleven]

Most of tome of radiance is pretty high tier 3. That said, it could certainly enable you to be a flying robot shooting lasers.

(Shameless plug for magical girls with swords (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?362608) - I'm starting a PbP now as a Servant Soul // Warlock, and I ended up really liking the complimentary designs)

[Uncle Pine]

You don't really need Chameleon's floating feat to be an effective crafter though: Craft Wondrous Items already covers all your slots bar weapon, shield and armor and custom items (slotless if necessary) with charges/day can be created to cover for the lack of custom wands and scrolls. IIRC you can UMD the lack of a spell requirement (??? it's been a while since I thoroughly read the crafting rules), otherwise you can simply have a spellcaster (paid if necessary) provide the spell.

[DurionArcanis]

Been a while since I've checked out the crafting rules as well, though again I don't think we'll be getting much downtime for crafting. Either way, yes, Warlock can UMD fake the spellcasting part from level 12 onward.

[Darkweave31]

Yeah Tome of radiance is mostly tier 3. On par with a well played bard. Stargazer may jump up if you abuse their item crafting ability (similar to the warlock's). And the power of friendship could help you sway key politicians.

As for beguiler I love the class and highly recommend it, especially for what seems to be a more social/politically focused campaign. Combining it with a dip in mindbender is good. Shadowcraft mage as well. That gestalted with fighter or warrior could be fun.

[Fouredged Sword]

Getting full bab lets you take Beast Strike at level 6. This works on two levels. First, it lets you add your slam damage to your unarmed strikes. This works well for warforged because a battlefist boosts the damage of both by one size. Adding eldrich claws to the mix allows you to add a bunch more D6 to it as well. You get to choose between adding physical or energy damage to your attack.

Greater mighty wallop lets you boost both your unarmed strike and slam damage.

The claw is likely to add more damage, but the slam lets you ignore SR, so having both can be useful. You won't need to pick up the acid blast flavor to deal with SR yes enemies.

[Uncle Pine]

Been a while since I've checked out the crafting rules as well, though again I don't think we'll be getting much downtime for crafting. Either way, yes, Warlock can UMD fake the spellcasting part from level 12 onward.

Remember that you can use your bedtime as crafting downtime, since warforged don't sleep.

You'll also need some way to reduce your arcane spell failure, unless you want to fail 5% of your invocations: playing a feycraft or githcraft warforged would be ideal if your DM is cool with it. Twilight (MIC) also works.

In order to increase versatility, as strange as it sounds a Monk dip (yeah, that Monk) coupled with Mithral Body could work wonderfully if you can convince your DM that since by RAW a Monk's body can be used to deliver unarmed strikes and anything made with mithral is automatically masterwork you can enchant yourself as a weapon. This can be either good or incredibly broken, but since you said that you don't want to break the game I trust that you won't try to abuse it and instead use it as a way to implement Style Changes into d&d.

[Fouredged Sword]

Remember that you can use your bedtime as crafting downtime, since warforged don't sleep.

You'll also need some way to reduce your arcane spell failure, unless you want to fail 5% of your invocations: playing a feycraft or githcraft warforged would be ideal if your DM is cool with it. Twilight (MIC) also works.

In order to increase versatility, as strange as it sounds a Monk dip (yeah, that Monk) coupled with Mithral Body could work wonderfully if you can convince your DM that since by RAW a Monk's body can be used to deliver unarmed strikes and anything made with mithral is automatically masterwork you can enchant yourself as a weapon. This can be either good or incredibly broken, but since you said that you don't want to break the game I trust that you won't try to abuse it and instead use it as a way to implement Style Changes into d&d.

Getting your slam enchanted is easy. Just get a battle fist. It enchants both your slam and all unarmed strikes without any fuss or muss with amulets.

[DurionArcanis]

The issue with Beguiler is that we are having to deal with fighting, frequently.

I've considered a Monk dip, since it's Tier5 I can gestalt it with other T5 classes also, so most likely Fighter for bonus feats.

I'm a little unsure about that ASF though, since afaik Invocations are (Sp) and don't trigger it. I have to doublecheck around though but I've even seen a few places that say something along the lines of it being ambiguous at the very least.

[Uncle Pine]

Getting your slam enchanted is easy. Just get a battle fist. It enchants both your slam and all unarmed strikes without any fuss or muss with amulets.

Enchanting your slam doesn't let you turn any size from Fine to Colossal or incorporeal at will. Enchanting your whole body on the other hand...


I'm a little unsure about that ASF though, since afaik Invocations are (Sp) and don't trigger it. I have to doublecheck around though but I've even seen a few places that say something along the lines of it being ambiguous at the very least.

Finally, unlike other spell-like abilities, invocations are subject to arcane spell failure chance as described under Weapon and Armor Proficiency above. Warlocks can qualify for some prestige classes usually intended for spellcasters; see Warlocks and Prestige Classes below for details.

They do trigger it, but I forgot to check under Weapon and Armor Proficiency were it says that warlocks ignore arcane spell failure from light armors (Mithral Body still counts as light). Shame on me, but at least it means that the Monk path is even more viable.

[DurionArcanis]

Crap.. I just noticed the details in the Mithral Body feat... I was hoping to get Cha to AC by dipping Battledancer instead of Monk, but the Mithral Body feat doesn't allow me to gain any class feature prohibited when wearing armor.

Still... this warrants inquiry. Would I be able to tack on the Feycraft template to the Mithral Body? If so, how? And if it is done, it would let me add Dex mod to my Unarmed Strike Damage right?

[Uncle Pine]

Crap.. I just noticed the details in the Mithral Body feat... I was hoping to get Cha to AC by dipping Battledancer instead of Monk, but the Mithral Body feat doesn't allow me to gain any class feature prohibited when wearing armor.

Yeah, I probably should've mentioned it. Unarmed Swordsage remains viable because it has Monk's unarmed progression and retains AC bonus if wearing light armor.
Ascetic Mage can be used to switch Wis bonus to AC to Cha bonus to AC and although it doesn't technically require Monk levels (which means you can use it with Unarmed Swordsage) it does have "ability to spontaneously cast 2nd-level arcane spells" as a prerequisite, which means that it won't work in your build. Still, it's nice to know the options.
If you really want that Cha to AC, a sillier option involves taking Human Heritage and a level in Ghost (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) (incorporeal creatures gain Cha to AC as a deflection bonus). I wouldn't reccommend it though. :smalltongue:


Still... this warrants inquiry. Would I be able to tack on the Feycraft template to the Mithral Body? If so, how? And if it is done, it would let me add Dex mod to my Unarmed Strike Damage right?
"My warforged was built by (maybe even from) fairies, which is part of the reason it can shoot magical multicolor beams from its eyes." Then spend 2.000 gp from your WBL pool (or ask for a background loan if the game starts at 1st or 2nd level).
As a feycraft warforged, you have -5% arcane spell failure, +1 bonus on Bluff checks made to deceive another creature with words, weigh 10% less than other warforged and deal unarmed damage as if you were one size category smaller, but can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls (not damage rolls) made with it.


Unrelated: your new avatar looks really cool.

[DurionArcanis]

Dangit.... Somehow I misread something and thought it was one of the few ways to get dex to damage...

As for the Ascetic Mage... maybe I can get my GM to allow it -shrug- But going Unarmed Swordsage wasn't planned it does add a heck of a lot of options lol

Unrelated: Yes, I've been trying to get it done for years now and have been disappointed by multiple afatarists, finally got one to do it and I love it :D

[Marlowe]

Ascetic Mage can be used to switch Wis bonus to AC to Cha bonus to AC and although it doesn't technically require Monk levels (which means you can use it with Unarmed Swordsage) it does have "ability to spontaneously cast 2nd-level arcane spells" as a prerequisite, which means that it won't work in your build. Still, it's nice to know the options.

Text description for Ascetic Mage says you only get the armour bonus if you already have Monk levels. Sadly.

[Uncle Pine]

As for the Ascetic Mage... maybe I can get my GM to allow it -shrug- But going Unarmed Swordsage wasn't planned it does add a heck of a lot of options lol
Ascetic Mage works without DM intervention... If you somehow finangle 2nd level arcane spontaneous casting in your build (maybe a PrC?). Unarmed Swordsage needs approvation though, because it's in the "Adaptation" section.


Text description for Ascetic Mage says you only get the armour bonus if you already have Monk levels. Sadly.

As a swift action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, you can sacrifice one of your daily allotment of spells to add a bonus to your unarmed strike attack rolls and damage rolls for 1 round. The bonus is equal to the level of the spell sacrificed. The spell is lost as if you had cast it. If you have levels in sorcerer and monk, those levels stack for the purpose of determining your AC bonus. For example, a human 4th-level sorcerer/1st-level monk would have a +1 bonus to AC as if she were a 5th-level monk. If you would normally be allowed to add your Wisdom bonus to AC (such as for a unarmored, unencumbered monk), you instead add your Charisma bonus (if any) to your AC. In addition, you can multiclass freely between the sorcerer and monk classes. You must still remain lawful in order to continue advancing as a monk. You still face the normal XP penalties for having multiple classes more than one level apart.
I parse the above as the following:
1. "As a swift action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, you can sacrifice one of your daily allotment of spells to add a bonus to your unarmed strike attack rolls and damage rolls for 1 round. The bonus is equal to the level of the spell sacrificed. The spell is lost as if you had cast it." Nice to have around, but not really necessary. Wraithstrike > +2 to-hit and +2 damage.
2. "If you have levels in sorcerer and monk, those levels stack for the purpose of determining your AC bonus. For example, a human 4th-level sorcerer/1st-level monk would have a +1 bonus to AC as if she were a 5th-level monk." We don't have Monk levels (maybe we don't even have Sorcerer levels), so let's skip this.
3. "If you would normally be allowed to add your Wisdom bonus to AC (such as for a unarmored, unencumbered monk), you instead add your Charisma bonus (if any) to your AC." Unarmed Swordsage normally allows you to add your Wisdom bonus to AC. Now you add Charisma.
4. "In addition, you can multiclass freely between the sorcerer and monk classes. You must still remain lawful in order to continue advancing as a monk. You still face the normal XP penalties for having multiple classes more than one level apart." Monk gibberish, let's skip this too.

Moreover, you only need Improved Unarmed Strike and 2nd level spontaneous arcane casting to take Ascetic Mage. A straight Sorcerer could legally take the feat, even though she'd only benefit from 1.

[DurionArcanis]

Ascetic Mage works without DM intervention... If you somehow finangle 2nd level arcane spontaneous casting in your build (maybe a PrC?). Unarmed Swordsage needs approvation though, because it's in the "Adaptation" section.

I was meaning more along the lines of getting it approved via Warlock Invocations. They do count as arcane, but not spontaneous spellcasting. It's something that's worth a shot at least in some cases. Either way, Swordsage is T3 so I couldn't seize say bonus feats or other nice lv1 class features for the second gestalt track, but the maneuvers severely outweigh that (especially if taken late enough to seize Assassin's Stance).

[Uncle Pine]

That would be especially nice, as I confirmed that there are no arcane spontaneous PrCs with fast progressing independent spellcasting. I could've missed something from Dragon, though.

[torrasque666]

That would be especially nice, as I confirmed that there are no arcane spontaneous PrCs with fast progressing independent spellcasting. I could've missed something from Dragon, though.
Suel Arcanamach. 2 levels gets you 2nd levels spells, and its charisma based.

[Uncle Pine]

Suel Arcanamach. 2 levels gets you 2nd levels spells, and its charisma based.

The truly terrible thing is that I spent at least 5 minutes looking at that PrC. I blame the horrible prerequisites for distracting me. :smallfrown:

[DurionArcanis]

Suel is quite fun for an anti-mage build but there are better ways to do it.

[nedz]

Suel Arcanamach. 2 levels gets you 2nd levels spells, and its charisma based.The truly terrible thing is that I spent at least 5 minutes looking at that PrC. I blame the horrible prerequisites for distracting me. :smallfrown:

Sorcerer 1 (or similar) with Precocious Apprentice is a well known trick — Saves you a feat and a level.

[torrasque666]

Sorcerer 1 (or similar) with Precocious Apprentice is a well known trick — Saves you a feat and a level.

Which relies on knowing that you only want to dip at first level, since PA can only be taken then.

[nedz]

Which relies on knowing that you only want to dip at first level, since PA can only be taken then.

Which the OP does, though for a 1 level dip I'd be more tempted to use either Dread Necromancer or Beguiler.



... and we're working under Partial Gestalt rules (T1/2 no Gestalt, T3/4 Gestalt w/NPC class, T5/6 Gestalt w/NPC+T5/6).
...
I've also considered taking the Spellfire feat (which was updated to reactive absorption) and dipping Spellfire Channeler for a side of healing, but I'm not sure if it's worth it.

Adept is an NPC class which could cover your healing ?

[Uncle Pine]

Sorcerer 1 (or similar) with Precocious Apprentice is a well known trick — Saves you a feat and a level.

Also anything spontaneous plus Sanctum Spell. Beguiler 1 is better under the given gestalt rules though and can be used as a 1st level dip to gain a ton of skill points, but I think that in this case the costs to get Ascetic Mage probably outweigh the benefits. The pros of taking a PrC to get 2nd level spell would've been getting a couple of cool and useful class features in the process, but apparently no viable PrC fits the bill.

[nedz]

Also anything spontaneous plus Sanctum Spell. Beguiler 1 is better under the given gestalt rules though and can be used as a 1st level dip to gain a ton of skill points, but I think that in this case the costs to get Ascetic Mage probably outweigh the benefits. The pros of taking a PrC to get 2nd level spell would've been getting a couple of cool and useful class features in the process, but apparently no viable PrC fits the bill.

Well there's always Eldritch Theurge — which adds flexibility.

[DurionArcanis]

Adept is an NPC class which could cover your healing ?
Well its healing is quite limited and we'll likely be seeing multiple encounters a day (we have so far anyways) so having pretty much unlimited healing via Spellfire + Warlock is pretty dang helpful even if it is slow and out of battle only. Not to mention I'm gonna need that full BAB.

Eldritch Theurge and all is nice but that's more of a fullcaster route, I'm going melee. That does add some good solid options but at the risk of going full on cheese.

As for the sorcerer which was mentioned, it also breaks PrC's as well as prevents me from taking an NPC class that level because it's Tier 2. Our GM has ruled that any PrC's you take count as the highest tier base class you have, so even if I only take a single level of a Tier 1 or 2 class I can't gestalt Warrior with it anymore for the BAB.