Mutiny?

[DeliaP]

OK, I did a forum search on mutiny and got nothing, so hopefully I'm not re-raising an existing topic....

But I've noticed the crew of the Mechane expressing dissatisfaction with their new Captain in Panels 3-5 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0988.html) and Panel 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0990.html) and possibly earliest Panel 5 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0961.html).

The second one I put down to character development for Andi and Bandana, but with the third one now, I'm getting a vibe that the crew aren't happy with Bandana's choices as new Captain... that they are thinking she's too much into hanging around with the Big Time Heroes, and not paying enough attention to the crew and (lucrative) Sky-Pirating.... and I'm worrying that this is some Ominous Foreshadowing of Trouble Ahead??

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think that there is certainly some tension between Bandana and the crew, especially with Andi. However, I don't think that it will get as serious as mutiny, rather I think that this is setting up character development for Bandana when she handles this situation.

[xroads]

Anything is possible. But I doubt it. It doesn't seem like a mutiny at this point would serve to enhance the story any.

Plus A lot of what you're seeing now is probably just growing pains. The crew (or at least Andi), is just trying to get adjusted to having a new captain. A captain who used to be one of them before.

[Goosefarble]

I don't know about a full-on mutiny but I definitely think this much vocal dissent from the crew has to amount to something. I'm expecting the Order to get turfed out and forced to travel the rest of the way to Kraagor's Gate on foot. Unless it all turns out to be a huge red herring of course.

[DeliaP]

Anything is possible. But I doubt it. It doesn't seem like a mutiny at this point would serve to enhance the story any.

I wouldn't be expecting anything to happen right now. Indeed, at least not until after the Godsmoot has been completed. However, once that gets (sort-of) resolved, however it may turn out, and the Order are ready to go to Kraagor's Gate and Bandana announces she's going to take them....

well, that's when Andi might feel enough Sky-Taxi-ing is enough...



Plus A lot of what you're seeing now is probably just growing pains. The crew (or at least Andi), is just trying to get adjusted to having a new captain. A captain who used to be one of them before.

A little bit of it, and I'd agree, but we've been treated to three separate occasions (and all involving Andi). Makes me suspicious the Giant isn't just character developing, but is foreshadowing something. (But it's just a guess.)

[Quild]

A little bit of it, and I'd agree, but we've been treated to three separate occasions (and all involving Andi). Makes me suspicious the Giant isn't just character developing, but is foreshadowing something. (But it's just a guess.)

Or Giant could have write Andi with a grief toward Bandana. He showed her very friendly to Roy.

I'd like that to be just what it look like and not some introduction to some side-stuff. I don't like Chekhov's law.

[SavageWombat]

Well, what if Durkula is going around dominating crewmembers and making them resent their captain? To what end?

[dancrilis]

However, once that gets (sort-of) resolved, however it may turn out, and the Order are ready to go to Kraagor's Gate and Bandana announces she's going to take them....

well, that's when Andi might feel enough Sky-Taxi-ing is enough...


Given that Roy is planning to teleport there I am dubious about Bandana taking them anywhere, he could lose the teleport device I suppose ...

[DeliaP]

Given that Roy is planning to teleport there I am dubious about Bandana taking them anywhere, he could lose the teleport device I suppose ...

Ah, yeah. I'd been thinking that the teleport orb was a back-up plan, but the way Roy phrases it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0966.html), the Mechane is the back-up plan.

Hmmm. Although if it was me, I'd take the Mechane as the more reliable option: after all, if the teleport orb dumps them in the wrong place, they're kind of screwed, while the Mechane gets them there in the nick of time.

[Gift Jeraff]

Given that Roy is planning to teleport there I am dubious about Bandana taking them anywhere, he could lose the teleport device I suppose ...

I think something's going to happen to that orb, otherwise they'd skip past Dwarven Lands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0937.html) and Durkon won't be able to fulfill his other prophecy. Unless they're currently near Dwarven Lands right now, I guess.

[Bulldog Psion]

I view mutiny as unlikely, but not totally impossible, also.

Part of it depends on how the ship is run. If it's anything like actual pirates, then there's a definite democratic element -- a captain who fails to produce the results desired by the crew won't fall to a mutiny necessarily (which suggests a different type of authority) but to another leader being chosen by popular acclaim.

If there's enough discontent, and the Mechane is semi-democratic, there's no need for a mutiny. The crew will simply choose Andi or someone to captain them, and Bandana will become an ordinary crew member again. Or they could just come to Bandana and say "most of us don't want to work as a taxi service for these people any more. Lead us on an expedition for merchant airship plundering, or we'll elect someone who will."

Which could still lead to the Order being tossed off the ship, hopefully not literally. :smallwink:

[theasl]

I don't know about a full-on mutiny but I definitely think this much vocal dissent from the crew has to amount to something. I'm expecting the Order to get turfed out and forced to travel the rest of the way to Kraagor's Gate on foot. Unless it all turns out to be a huge red herring of course.

Well, don't they have that teleport orb now? The plan was that the airship would drop them off at the godsmoot and then be free to go, with the order using the orb to get directly to the last gate.

[Psyren]

Well, don't they have that teleport orb now? The plan was that the airship would drop them off at the godsmoot and then be free to go, with the order using the orb to get directly to the last gate.

I would imagine they'd ask the airship to keep going north, they'll need a ride back assuming they survive Xykon. (And if they don't, the world is pretty screwed anyway, so the airship would be in trouble even if it didn't go.)

[theasl]

I would imagine they'd ask the airship to keep going north, they'll need a ride back assuming they survive Xykon. (And if they don't, the world is pretty screwed anyway, so the airship would be in trouble even if it didn't go.)

Hrm, true, I forgot that the orb was one-way. Now that I've re-read 989, I don't see anyone saying anything about the Mechane's plans after the godsmoot. The crew clearly thinks they're going to go back to pirating in 990, though. I guess we'll see.

[goodpeople25]

I would imagine they'd ask the airship to keep going north, they'll need a ride back assuming they survive Xykon. (And if they don't, the world is pretty screwed anyway, so the airship would be in trouble even if it didn't go.)
Well couldn't Durkon word of recall 4-5 (depending on his CL i think he needs 15 CL to get 5) creatures besides himself to a place he is familiar with? That does leave out Belkar if 4 and definitely Belkar's pets, but roy might be counting on Belkar not making it. Plus Both O Chul and Lien are sharking there at least some of the way so they might be planning on making belkar and buddies ride back with the paladins if Belkar makes it. A 30 pound halfling and small pets shouldn't affect the sharks load that much. V should be able to change blood feast again right?
Plus the ocean might kill belkar, by roys thinking.

[Gnome Alone]

Or Giant could have write Andi with a grief toward Bandana. He showed her very friendly to Roy.

I'd like that to be just what it look like and not some introduction to some side-stuff. I don't like Chekhov's law.

That whole "Chekhov's Gun" thing is not by any means a law of drama. It's just an opinion. An opinion that any element introduced to a story should end up being significant in the long run. That's it.

It gets trickier when you figure: ok, a GUN is a big deal, I mean Chekhov didn't say that any wallpaper that is put up in Act I has to be ripped down by Act III. But figuring out what is a significant element in a story is a good chunk of the fun anyway.

As per the original question, I doubt it's building to a mutiny. More likely, the crew grousing about taxi-ing the PCs around serves to make the story more realisitic: if they weren't, I'd bet kronor to cronuts that a bunch of forumanians would be complaining that it was awfully convenient that the Order found some sky pirates to ferry them around just when they needed something like that the most. The pirates saying, "Geez, what's so great about these [anuses] anyway" is just a nice touch, in my opinion.

[Quild]

Chekhov didn't say that any wallpaper that is put up in Act I has to be ripped down by Act III. But figuring out what is a significant element in a story is a good chunk of the fun anyway.

The quote I found says:


Remove everything that has no relevance to the story. If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off. If it's not going to be fired, it shouldn't be hanging there.

—Anton Chekhov

The rifle is a mere exemple to me. Chekhov wanted everything to be relevant. And if everything is relevant, nothing is.

It's one of the problem I have with movies. Almost nothing is irrelevant which makes it quite easy to guess some plots based on clues and knowing your tropes. Movies are relatively short and there's not enough time to drop false clues and irrelevant stuff just to pose the context.

A small exemple of something awful: in The Dark Knight Rises, Alfred explains how during Bruce's disparition, he fantasized every year on meeting him on a terrace in Italy. That's a nice story, touching and stuff. But it's totally spoiled by the end of the movie where it does happen. Come on... That little story would have been better if irrelevant for what was next.

[littlebum2002]

It's one of the problem I have with movies. Almost nothing is irrelevant which makes it quite easy to guess some plots based on clues and knowing your tropes. Movies are relatively short and there's not enough time to drop false clues and irrelevant stuff just to pose the context.

Ugh, the one I hate the most is when some character teaches the protagonist some obscure bit of information early on in the move, and that turns out to be what he needs to beat the bad guy at the end.

But I agree with Gnome, sometimes an NPC is just an NPC. I mean, take the dirt farmers (probably a bad example but the first one at the top of my head). Yes, they had an argument, but it was just for flavor, and din't actually contribute to the plot. I think these crew members are just acting like any blue collar worker normally does, halfheartedly complaining about their job while they really don't mind it that much.

[Psyren]

Well couldn't Durkon word of recall 4-5 (depending on his CL i think he needs 15 CL to get 5) creatures besides himself to a place he is familiar with? That does leave out Belkar if 4 and definitely Belkar's pets, but roy might be counting on Belkar not making it. Plus Both O Chul and Lien are sharking there at least some of the way so they might be planning on making belkar and buddies ride back with the paladins if Belkar makes it. A 30 pound halfling and small pets shouldn't affect the sharks load that much. V should be able to change blood feast again right?
Plus the ocean might kill belkar, by roys thinking.

I doubt Roy would hinge their entire exit strategy on one party member though. They also might have prisoners (the "double-fantasy" had them chaining up Redcloak, and they possibly might want to bring in the MitD too depending on what Roy made of O-Chul's testimony.) So having a method of transporation that can not only carry everyone but also arrive in the nick of time would be very handy.

[goodpeople25]

I doubt Roy would hinge their entire exit strategy on one party member though. They also might have prisoners (the "double-fantasy" had them chaining up Redcloak, and they possibly might want to bring in the MitD too depending on what Roy made of O-Chul's testimony.) So having a method of transporation that can not only carry everyone but also arrive in the nick of time would be very handy.
True but there are still options besides the airship and trusting the mechnae to get them out has its own problems, the sky pirtate thing for one, plus the reason they have a ride is julio left orders to "Take" them where they want to go (yes it could be considered a loophole but they are pirates) the mechnae could go as well if they teleport, is Bandana wants to, but then she might lose the added authority of following julio's orders. Plus from how i read it the nick of time thing is actually a Julio thing the mechnae's thing is to fly faster when the sake of the world is at sake. Also trying to get a large airship near kraggors gate might not be that great there might be flying monsters near the Gate or casting ones, and if they land out of range they might need a sending to set a rendezvous and by then they might need to wait 8 hours, plus they could just wait at kraggors gate amd send for the mechnae if they need the ride.

[Psyren]

Roy seems to think (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0987.html) the "nick of time" thing will work whether Julio is on board or not though.

For the piracy, they say "now we're headed somewhere else?" - referring to the Godsmoot. They were already planning to fly north to the Gate, so it's not like it would delay their piracy all that much. (I'm curious though, is Roy just clueless about the fact that they plan to start pillaging once he's gone?)

[Doug Lampert]

That whole "Chekhov's Gun" thing is not by any means a law of drama. It's just an opinion. An opinion that any element introduced to a story should end up being significant in the long run. That's it.

The thing is, Chekhov wrote SHORT works. Anything unnecessary to the story really would detract from it at his length. The whole thing isn't really that applicable to the Order of the Stick.

Also:
Conservation of Detail is overrated.

[goodpeople25]

Roy seems to think (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0987.html) the "nick of time" thing will work whether Julio is on board or not though.

For the piracy, they say "now we're headed somewhere else?" - referring to the Godsmoot. They were already planning to fly north to the Gate, so it's not like it would delay their piracy all that much. (I'm curious though, is Roy just clueless about the fact that they plan to start pillaging once he's gone?)
Well yeah they were planning to go north to the gate, but a pick up from the gate while taking the same time as what they were planning, is still varying from the letter of what Julio ordered, plus they are no longer on board, even without Julio's orders, kicking out 6 -mid to high level adventurers off your ship is never an easy thing to do while at least without losing your ship in the process. Roy might not even have been counting on an airship pickup even if he did take the airship, they are pirates, and being in the north near kraggors gate just waiting for them to come back is quite possibly dangerous, and it might take a day or two just to get to xykon, so they might not have the fuel to fly around waiting. On the pillaging, Roy is not a paladin, plus pillaging can mean different things for all we and roy knows they are the Dread pirate Roberts type that seems to fit julio pretty well.

[Psyren]

Roy isn't a paladin but he's still Lawful Good. He would object to their plans of going after a "fat merchant blimp" if he knew about them, I'm certain.

You're right though - even if he asks for a pickup, plans may change drastically once the adventurers are off the ship (never mind whatever Durkula has planned.) Bandana may well have a mutiny on her hands once the OotS is gone.

[goodpeople25]

Roy isn't a paladin but he's still Lawful Good. He would object to their plans of going after a "fat merchant blimp" if he knew about them, I'm certain.

You're right though - even if he asks for a pickup, plans may change drastically once the adventurers are off the ship (never mind whatever Durkula has planned.) Bandana may well have a mutiny on her hands once the OotS is gone.
On the blimp thing, we don't know their style of pirating, as i said earlier they could be dread pirate roberts type pirates, as in they pirate via their reputations, ie making a few baslita shots, hopefully at the engines, then they board and take all they want, relying on their reputations to do the work to get the merchants to give up without a fight this is more likely in A D&D world as the power gap between fighters is wider than in Irl. Also their reps should be sufficient as the blimp industry can't be that large. they are still stealing of course but Roy seems to put up with Haley.

[HappyFunNorm]

Might be, but I doubt it. I suspect it's character building so that when (and given the large number of casters that appear to be about to throw down) the Mechane may not be much longer for the world. I'm wondering if we'll get a "this is YOUR fault, Bandanna" death scene coming up...

In short, there are bigger problems than a mutiny, IMO.

[LuisDantas]

Roy is probably not even thinking much about how to return or what the Mechane Crew will do after landing them North.

For one thing, beggars can't be chosers, and this is very much a situation of he needing them instead of the other way around (unless you consider that he is trying to keep existence, but the Mechane does not know or necessarily believe in that).

Also, there are options for a ride back home.

If Vaarsuvius survives after the Gate situation is settled, he may trance and them choose Limited Wish in order to emulate Teleport (since Conjuration is a barred school for him, he can't choose Teleport proper).

If Durkon is restored, or regains control of his body, he may use Wind Walk.

Either of them could use Sending to contact, say, Hinjo (who has a fleet and Elven allies capable of Teleport), Aarindarius (Vaarsuvius' teacher), Ian (Haley's father) or even Celia to ask for help if need be.

Then of course there are Lien and O-Chul, who as noted might be of at least some help as well.

One thing is clear to me: after his initial lessons about respecting Elan, Roy is not about to depend on Belkar dying at a convenient time.

[Psyren]

If V had limited wish, why would they be scrounging for a teleport orb to begin with? And for that matter, why would he have been stuck on the ranch dressing demiplane for a day waiting for Durkon to come get him?

[ti'esar]

And for that matter, why would he have been stuck on the ranch dressing demiplane for a day waiting for Durkon to come get him?

Well, V might have leveled up during the subsequent events. But I agree that it's extremely unlikely that V has or will get any sort of wish spell.

[Psyren]

If he had leveled up and acquired LW prior to Tinkertown, they wouldn't need an orb. And we know he didn't level up while there, since he had no encounters and was even complaining to Roy about Haley having done so.

[LuisDantas]

Fair point. Vaarsuvius probably does not have Limited Wish, and is not very likely to ever acquire it, let alone other forms of Wish. IIRC the Giant specifically mentions his dislike of story-breaking spells in his commentary on Snips, Snails and Dragon Tales.

Vaarsuvius does, however, have Sending and #630 implies that he can contact Aarindarius by his own means if given the time to trance. By the RAW, he can prepare Sending up to twelve times at his assumed Wizard level of 16. Perhaps of note is that he has also researched at least one Enhanced Scrying spell.

So I still feel that if either a cooperative Durkon or Vaarsuvius survives until the Order wants to leave the North they are hardly stranded and helpless, even if the Mechane is unavailable or unwilling to help.

[hroþila]

V was reluctant to contact Aarindarius to save the souls of their children. There's no way V'd do it just to get a ride.

[SirKazum]

V was reluctant to contact Aarindarius to save the souls of their children. There's no way V'd do it just to get a ride.

I dunno... psychologically, asking one's mentor for a ride home might be an easier pill to swallow than asking one's mentor to clean up a terrible mess that's a direct consequence of one's own actions. Besides, current V is a very different person from past V, and especially from V specifically at that point in that deserted island. At that moment, V was extremely frustrated about being incapable of finding Haley through arcane power, and desperately needed to assert the might of V's own arcane magic. Asking Aarindarius for help would be the ultimate humiliation in that specific psychological context.

[LuisDantas]

Indeed. Vaarsuvius had a lot more hubris and a lot more pretext for feeling ashamed at those circunstances.

Also, he knew or suspected of being manipulated by literal demons (or was it the dragon?) at the time.

But in the proposed scenario? I don't really see a problem.

[hroþila]

That's a good point until you realize that V's reluctance to ask Aarindarius for help is also a good way for the Giant to keep Aarindarius, and thus his powers, out of the story, the necessity of which applies now just as much as it did during the attack of the ABD.

[LuisDantas]

That's a good point until you realize that V's reluctance to ask Aarindarius for help is also a good way for the Giant to keep Aarindarius, and thus his powers, out of the story, the necessity of which applies now just as much as it did during the attack of the ABD.

Would it apply for the return trip, though?

[Onyavar]

Back to the original question, I don't think that there will be a mutiny against the order specifically, though there seem to be hard feelings against Bandana, "the kid" as Andi put it. I assume Andi is older and more experienced than Bandana. I see the Mechane crew very subtly breaking apart, but we need lots more strips for that. It won't happen before the end of the book, I guess, and we need at least three times as many occurances of growing estrangement before something drastic is in order.

The Mechane crew knows that the Order is on a mission to literally save the world, and Bandana already clearly voted against doing a tour to all unresolved sidequests.
So, all the order gets is a free lift to the North Pole/Kraagor's Gate, nothing more. The detour to Tinkertown was a necessity. The detour to the pinnacle mountains is already a stretch. Were the order to detour from the pinnacle mountains again to another destination, the Mechane crew would have every reason to complain and tell them to get lost.

Bandana, though she is tight with Haley and the order, should be the first to put a stop to detouring. I only suspect a mutiny against Order and Bandana if she saw herself more an Order member than a Mechane member, in all her actions. There's no sign of that so far, besides her "adventuring" against Crystal.