Exalted Questions

[Kesnit]

My 3.5 group just finished a quest arc and are making new PCs. I decided to keep the concept I was playing, but rebuild within the new rules.

Build: CG Soul-Scourged Hellbred Changeling Warlock 1/Cloistered Cleric 4/Eldritrch Disciple 7
Invocations: Baleful Utterance, See the Unseen, Otherworldly Whispers, Fell Flight, and Walk Unseen
Domains: Knowledge, Travel, Protection

(1) The write-up for Hellbred says "regardless of alignment or class restrictions, a hellbred can cast spells with the evil descriptor...This ability does not shield a hellbred from losing access to class features if he violates a class's code of conduct."

Would this allow an Exalted Hellbred to cast evil spells without losing Exalted status?
Moot point with race change.

(2) I am thinking about taking VoP. Would the above build work for a VoP character? My group is low- to mid-optimization. I intentionally limited my spell list to remove any spell that does HP damage. (Ability damage is OK.) The PC does mostly buff/debuff, with some battlefield control. He uses Eldritch Blast when he wants to do damage.

[torrasque666]

You'd first have to get rid of Devil's Favor. Devil-Touched Feats prevent taking Exalted feats as a rule.

[Kesnit]

You'd first have to get rid of Devil's Favor. Devil-Touched Feats prevent taking Exalted feats as a rule.

Although it says after "selecting" a Devil-touched feat. I'm not selecting the feat - I get it as a racial feature.

[torrasque666]

Although it says after "selecting" a Devil-touched feat. I'm not selecting the feat - I get it as a racial feature.
Which it could be argued you selected by selecting the race.

[Kesnit]

I'll ask my DM if I can swap out Devil's Favor for Sacred Vow. They do similar things, so it wouldn't be a huge stretch.

Assuming I can get rid of Devil's Favor, would the build actually work with VoP?

[torrasque666]

Probably not, because VoP prevents you from owning a divine focus, thus preventing you from casting 99.9999999% of your spells.

[Troacctid]

1. There are a lot of judgement calls involved in adjudicating Exalted status. You'll have to talk to your DM. Personally, I wouldn't make you "fall" for it, but I do strongly believe an Exalted character would choose not to use [Evil] spells, regardless of whether they're technically "allowed" to do so. Part of being Exalted is going above and beyond--you're not supposed to be looking for loopholes, you're supposed to hold yourself to a higher standard.

2. Vow of Poverty, you mean? You'd survive, sure. I mean, it's generally mathematically inferior to the standard wealth allotment at any given level, but Clerics aren't very gear-dependent, especially once you take away their armor proficiencies; you can make up for it with magic. Just make sure you take Obtain Familiar at some point to "unlock" Celestial Familiar as a bonus feat--you're going to run out of good Exalted feats pretty quickly. (FWIW you can still have a divine focus with a Vow of Poverty, it just can't be in the form of a material possession.)

[marphod]

(FWIW you can still have a divine focus with a Vow of Poverty, it just can't be in the form of a material possession.)

That really depends on what Depends on what the Divine Focus is. A simple symbol as an embroidered stitch in a (distinct color of) homespun cloth of your robes doesn't violate the Vow (Most gods, Allowed clothing). A simple weapon that is only used for ritual purposes is allowed, if appropriate to the deity (simple weapons allowed -- St Cuthbert). Ritual Scaring or (non-magical, done with ash and a knife) Tattoos aren't a violation (not, strictly, a possession and done by oneself; Wee Jas, possibly Boccob). A collection of wildflower petals woven together isn't a violation (things you would find in a spell component pouch; Ehlonna, Corellon, Obad-Hai). A seasonally appropriate harvest vegetable is allowed (one day of food, Yondalla). A few pebbles from each trip you made (Fharlanghn) or a small stone of Yellow sea-glass (Pelor) isn't a violation (things found in a spell component pouch). Your own empty fist, prominently displayed (Kord). A symbol you've carved into a quarterstaff or club. Your own finger-bone (Olidammara).

You can then wander down into more metaphysical concepts for a Divine Focus. Or use the results of another spell as your focus (Summon Instrument to get a Lute for Olidammara; getting the Druid to summon an elemental corresponding to an elemental god for you to use; making it out of a silent image, etc.; admittedly, easier for builds that use both levels in a Spontaneous Arcane Caster and a divine caster.)

[marphod]

Drat. Forgot this in my previous reply. Apologies.



... I do strongly believe an Exalted character would choose not to use [Evil] spells, regardless of whether they're technically "allowed" to do so. Part of being Exalted is going above and beyond--you're not supposed to be looking for loopholes, you're supposed to hold yourself to a higher standard.

I would also point this out vis-a-vis Baleful Utterance. Baleful Utterance is explicitly using a word of Dark Speech, which is as bad as, if not worse than, casting an Evil spell (IMO). This may be the only case I've seen where Hammer Blast might be a rational, if not optimal, choice.

[Troacctid]

That really depends on what Depends on what the Divine Focus is. A simple symbol as an embroidered stitch in a (distinct color of) homespun cloth of your robes doesn't violate the Vow (Most gods, Allowed clothing). A simple weapon that is only used for ritual purposes is allowed, if appropriate to the deity (simple weapons allowed -- St Cuthbert). Ritual Scaring or (non-magical, done with ash and a knife) Tattoos aren't a violation (not, strictly, a possession and done by oneself; Wee Jas, possibly Boccob). A collection of wildflower petals woven together isn't a violation (things you would find in a spell component pouch; Ehlonna, Corellon, Obad-Hai). A seasonally appropriate harvest vegetable is allowed (one day of food, Yondalla). A few pebbles from each trip you made (Fharlanghn) or a small stone of Yellow sea-glass (Pelor) isn't a violation (things found in a spell component pouch). Your own empty fist, prominently displayed (Kord). A symbol you've carved into a quarterstaff or club. Your own finger-bone (Olidammara).

You can then wander down into more metaphysical concepts for a Divine Focus. Or use the results of another spell as your focus (Summon Instrument to get a Lute for Olidammara; getting the Druid to summon an elemental corresponding to an elemental god for you to use; making it out of a silent image, etc.; admittedly, easier for builds that use both levels in a Spontaneous Arcane Caster and a divine caster.)

Holy symbols are only 50 gp and aren't consumed when used, so just pay 10 xp at some point and you should be set for life.


Alternatively, an ascetic spellcaster can sacrifice experience points in place of expensive components, with 1 XP equivalent to 5 gp value of components.

That's how I'm reading this bit, anyway.

[Kesnit]

1. There are a lot of judgement calls involved in adjudicating Exalted status. You'll have to talk to your DM. Personally, I wouldn't make you "fall" for it, but I do strongly believe an Exalted character would choose not to use [Evil] spells, regardless of whether they're technically "allowed" to do so. Part of being Exalted is going above and beyond--you're not supposed to be looking for loopholes, you're supposed to hold yourself to a higher standard.

After further thought, I decided to go with Changeling as my race, rather than Hellbred. It fit better with my backstory, and solves the whole "evil spell issue."


Vow of Poverty, you mean? You'd survive, sure. I mean, it's generally mathematically inferior to the standard wealth allotment at any given level, but Clerics aren't very gear-dependent, especially once you take away their armor proficiencies; you can make up for it with magic. Just make sure you take Obtain Familiar at some point to "unlock" Celestial Familiar as a bonus feat--you're going to run out of good Exalted feats pretty quickly.

I already had Obtain Familiar as a feat. Which leads to a questions... Would it be better to have a celestial animal, or the coure eladrin as my familiar?


That really depends on what Depends on what the Divine Focus is. A simple symbol as an embroidered stitch in a (distinct color of) homespun cloth of your robes doesn't violate the Vow (Most gods, Allowed clothing). A simple weapon that is only used for ritual purposes is allowed, if appropriate to the deity (simple weapons allowed -- St Cuthbert). Ritual Scaring or (non-magical, done with ash and a knife) Tattoos aren't a violation (not, strictly, a possession and done by oneself; Wee Jas, possibly Boccob).

My deity is Selune. I think my best option would be a tattoo of the symbol on his arm. He can hide it under clothing when he needs to disguise himself, but expose it to cast when necessary.


I would also point this out vis-a-vis Baleful Utterance. Baleful Utterance is explicitly using a word of Dark Speech, which is as bad as, if not worse than, casting an Evil spell (IMO). This may be the only case I've seen where Hammer Blast might be a rational, if not optimal, choice.

While I see your point, Baleful Utterance does not have the Evil descriptor, and nor does the shatter spell. The fact that the description says it is Dark Speech is, in my mind, pure fluff.

[Yuki Akuma]

Coure eladrins can speak and have opposable thumbs. Therefore, they can use magic items. Like, say, wands.

Just remember that you need ranks in Use Magic Device for it to use your Cleric wands. Luckily, you're a Warlock. And a coure's Charisma modifier is obscene.

Edit: Coures are also my favourite minor celestials in the entire setting, though, so I may be biased.

[Jowgen]

Ah, Exalted, my favorite little piece of morally questionable goodness.

First, I strongly suggest you look into trying for Sainthood. It gives you a wagon-load of stuff you can't otherwise get on a VOP character, and is perfect in flavour. The ideal way to do it, provided your DM plays nice, is to have the LA bought off retroactively (e.g. just deduct the EXP you'd have paid from your starting total) and have the "extraordinary sacrifice" role-playing requirement covered as part of your backstory. Arguably, the very fact that you've chosen to forgo all worldly possession for the good of others is an extraordinary sacrifice in itself, and the degree to how VOP works out less-beneficial than just having the equivalent gold keeps this more than balanced. The fact that you're not high OP makes going for saint even more of a no-brainer.

Second, be sure you're very clear with what you're DM considers exalted in it's different applications. BoVD and BoED for example disagree in some points on what is "always evil" and what is "always good". The most consistent approach I've found to explaining "exalted good" is to view it as "cosmic good"; meaning that all that matters is philosophically-pure good-ness free from the subjective moral views commonly held by mortals. The part of BoED that talks about how your own good-ness isn't a commodity to be traded when faced with worst-case scenarios illustrates this very nicely. Treating Exalted good this way does away with the "living up to everyone's expectations" issue.

Lastly, have a serious look at grafts and, to a lesser degree, the body-modifications found in the last (or second to last) Dragon magazine; as neither count as possessions and are thus legal on an exalted character. I personally recommend special attention to the Eberron grafts, particularly construct grafts. Maybe your DM will let you work some of them into your backstory. If your DM sees a consistency issue in how you could have gotten grafts in the absence of WBL, perhaps you can delay the taking of VOP in your build so you could have had backstory-time with wealth during which to pay for the grafts. Oh, also, same thing with magical locations that give permanent benefits. My guide on Feat-granting things as a few of interest I believe. If your DM plays with guild-membership benefits, that's another one to look into; but I rarely find it worthwhile even when done under ideal conditions.

Also, you might be interested in my Redeemery Protocol, see sig *shameless self-plug*

[Troacctid]

The coure eladrin is leagues above basically every other available familiar in the game for your alignment. I don't think it's even close. I mean, have you looked at that thing? Look at all those great abilities. Every time I play a character without a coure familiar, I find myself constantly thinking, "Gee, it's too bad I don't have an incorporeal ball of light casting Faerie Fire on all my enemies right now."

[Kesnit]

Coure eladrins can speak and have opposable thumbs. Therefore, they can use magic items. Like, say, wands.

Just remember that you need ranks in Use Magic Device for it to use your Cleric wands. Luckily, you're a Warlock. And a coure's Charisma modifier is obscene.

Edit: Coures are also my favourite minor celestials in the entire setting, though, so I may be biased.

Can my familiar own and use wands if I have VoP?


Ah, Exalted, my favorite little piece of morally questionable goodness.

:smallbiggrin:


First, I strongly suggest you look into trying for Sainthood. It gives you a wagon-load of stuff you can't otherwise get on a VOP character, and is perfect in flavour. The ideal way to do it, provided your DM plays nice, is to have the LA bought off retroactively (e.g. just deduct the EXP you'd have paid from your starting total) and have the "extraordinary sacrifice" role-playing requirement covered as part of your backstory.

We're starting at LVL 12, so building a LVL 10 PC won't be hard. I'm sure I can think of something appropriate for the backstory.

The PCs live in the Evil Elven Empire. When the game opens, all the PCs will be in prison. They will all be either members of the Underground Railroad, helping slaves escape, or will become members early in the game. I decided my PC will be a former slave who escaped with the help of the Railroad, who now helps other slaves escape. That's why I switched my race to Changeling - the bonus to disguise and the Minor Shapeshift was too good to pass up.


The fact that you're not high OP makes going for saint even more of a no-brainer.

Yeah. Losing two caster levels hurts, but not as much as it could. And the stuff I get in return is awesome!


Second, be sure you're very clear with what you're DM considers exalted in it's different applications.

I loaned her BoED so she could read over it and decide how she wants to handle it. I may not be able to go Exalted, and am building 2 versions of the character - one with VoP and one without. However, I am hoping she lets me play the VoP.


Lastly, have a serious look at grafts and, to a lesser degree, the body-modifications found in the last (or second to last) Dragon magazine; as neither count as possessions and are thus legal on an exalted character.

I'll have to chase those down, as I don't have easy access to Dragon magazine. But Google is my friend...


Maybe your DM will let you work some of them into your backstory. If your DM sees a consistency issue in how you could have gotten grafts in the absence of WBL, perhaps you can delay the taking of VOP in your build so you could have had backstory-time with wealth during which to pay for the grafts.

As currently built, I don't pick up VoP until LVL 3, since I have to take Sacred Vow and we don't play with flaws. If necessary, I can move some feats around to pick it up later.


The coure eladrin is leagues above basically every other available familiar in the game for your alignment. I don't think it's even close. I mean, have you looked at that thing? Look at all those great abilities. Every time I play a character without a coure familiar, I find myself constantly thinking, "Gee, it's too bad I don't have an incorporeal ball of light casting Faerie Fire on all my enemies right now."

I did look, and was very impressed. But I wasn't sure if it actually is as good as it looks, especially since my arcane caster level when I'd come into the game is only 7 (at ECL 12).

[torrasque666]

Remember that having the Saint Template is much more than just "I'm gonna be a saint now" like some other templates. It has additional requirements as detailed in chapter 2.



Must be of good alignment
Must have at least three exalted feats
Must never have lost the benefit of exalted feats or class abilities because of committing an evil act, even if the character properly atoned
Must at all times behave in a way the DM considers to be exemplary of the exalted path described in this book
Must be at least 6th level
Must make an extraordinary sacrifice (not necessarily his or her life) for the good of another

[Troacctid]

Your arcane caster level is only really important up until you have the minimum for the familiar you want. Which is 7. So you're good.

Giving wands to your familiar is another of those things that an exalted character might be "allowed" to do, but would probably choose not to do. Same with grafts. I don't know if it's against the letter of the vow, but it's certainly against the spirit.

There is a neat little loophole that's not against the spirit of the vow, though. You technically still gain wealth, it's just donated to churches or charities or whatever. These donations make those organizations friendly towards you, and they'll be happy to do favors for you, like casting spells free of charge, as a sign of their gratitude. Charity is its own reward, of course, but it can still be helpful in times of need to be able to call upon a host of clerics who like you enough to cast free spells to aid you in your quests.

[Kesnit]

Must be of good alignment

He's CG.


Must have at least three exalted feats

Which I will have at lvl 4, due to Sacred Vow, VoP, and the bonus feats from VoP.


Must never have lost the benefit of exalted feats or class abilities because of committing an evil act, even if the character properly atoned

I'm starting wth the template, so am fine there.


Must at all times behave in a way the DM considers to be exemplary of the exalted path described in this book

I trust the DM to give me a chance to rethink my actions if she feels I'm not living up to Exalted.


Must be at least 6th level

Thanks. I forgot this one. The idea I had for my great sacrifice was going to happen at lvl 4. Need to rethink how it will work. Although I can just bump the event up two levels...


Must make an extraordinary sacrifice (not necessarily his or her life) for the good of another


I have an idea for this one. Specifically, he will take a beating in place of another slave. The other slave was a child, and likely would have died from the number of lashes he was to receive.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Your great sacrifice can happen before level 6. You just need to make sure it happens before you take the template.
Make sure your DM is on board with the saint template. It gives some major benefits and your DM may get annoyed at your list of immunities, fast healing, and high AC.

[atemu1234]

Which it could be argued you selected by selecting the race.

... I feel like there's a joke about racism here...

[Kesnit]

So here is what I have at the moment. I want to make sure everything is legal before I send it to my DM.

Name (because I don't have one for him yet) CG Changeling Saint Cloistered Cleric 4/Warlock 1/Eldritch Disciple 5
Abilities (rolled and including level ups and boosts from Saint)
STR 10 INT 14
DEX 14 WIS 18 (+2 from VoP, so 20)
CON 16 CHA 19

AC 26 (7 armor from VoP + 2DEX + 1 Nat from VoP + 1 Deflection from VoP + 5 WIS-to-AC from Saint)
Weapon: Eldritch Blast +9 / 3d6

Domains: Knowledge, Protection, Travel


(1) Sacred Vow
(3) Vow of Poverty
(6) Practiced Caster - Cleric
(9) Obtain Familiar

Vow of Poverty Feats
(4) Nymph's Kiss
(6) Consecrate Spell-like Ability
(8) Gift of Faith
(10) Celestial Familiar

Patron Gifts: Healing Blast and Protective Aura
Invocations: Baleful Utterance, Unworldly Whispers, See the Unseen, Fell Flight

Name all-but grew up in the Temple of Selune. He knew his parents loved him, but with 5 children to raise and their business to run, Name always felt a little lost at home. At the Temple, however, he felt right. The rituals brought a measure of peace to his life, and the priests never objected when he disappeared for hours at a time into their library to read. There was no question that when he was old enough, he would take vows to Selune. (Sacred Vow) It was a surprise, however, when Name eventually took a vow of povery, swearing to give everything he had back to the faith that had given him so much. (Vow of Poverty)

For many years afterwards, Name stayed in that Temple. Eventually, he began to teach, and found he had a gift for doing so. So much so that the head of the Temple decided to send Name to the High Temple to study, believing that Name would eventually return and share his learning with everyone. Such would have been the case, had fate not taken a hand in Name's life.

The ship he traveled on was attacked and all the passengers were captured by slavers. Name never lost hope or faith, however, believing that there was a purpose for all things. And perhaps he was right. Name found his first major purpose in his Master's house. His education had bought him a place as a tutor for his Master's children. As such, he was treated well compared to the other slaves his Master owned. But he knew what was happening in the fields, and knew he could not turn a blind eye. He used his divine powers to tend to the sick and injured. He knew it was not enough to sustain them, but it was all he could do. Or so he thought. (By this point, Name has his 4 levels in Cloistered Cleric.)

One day, Name awoke to find the Master's estate in an uproar. Several slave families had made a run for it overnight. Hunters were sent to track them, and within a week, all had been returned in shackles. In fury, the Master ordered all of them, including the children, to be whipped severely. Name knew he could not stand by and allow this to happen. When all the slaves - house and field - were gathered to watch the punishment, Name stepped forward and volunteered to take the lashings of all the children. The overseer and Master laughed, thinking Name was putting on a show. That was, until Name removed his shirt and stepped to the whipping post. Thinking Name would back down after a few lashes, the overseer began. To everyone's shock, Name accepted the full punishment, though he was near death when it was over. (The great sacrifice necessary for Saint.)

As a valuble house slave, the Master called the doctor to treat Name's wounds. Name lay unconscious for several days, but slowly began to recover. What Name never revealed was that while he was healing, he recieved a vision from Selune.
"You have done well, my child," She told him. "But there is more for you to do in the world. You honor Me, so I will honor you." She then implanted in his mind new skills and abilities unknown to the path of a priest. "Use these powers for Good, and you will be rewarded." (Name picks up his level of Warlock and begins Eldritch Disciple.)

At first, Name continued as he always had, caring for the slaves on the estate. His power increased, and he found he could do more and more to help ease the suffering. He also discovered that he no longer needed to eat, so began sneaking food from the main house to the slaves in the fields. Eventually, however, he learned of an organization that aided slaves in escaping and building new lives for themselves. After long prayers to Selune, he knew his time serving only the slaves on his Master's estate was at an end. It was time to take the fight to those involved in the slave trade. With the help of the organization, he escaped. And that is when he revealed the ability that he had kept hidden since his capture - he could change his appearance at will. This made him the perfect infiltrator and spy. He could scout areas without notice, just by pretending to leave a town, then coming back the next day (or week) in a new guise.

Some time after joining the Resistance, Selune appeared to him again. "You continue to impress me, child. You have done as I asked, and so here is your reward." She touched his forehead, and he felt his skin toughen. The divine power within him grew stronger. His willpower increased. He could only bow his head in reverence at the gift She had bestowed. "Continue on your path with my blessing. But remember, what I give, I can take away." (Gaining the Saint template.)

Years passed, and his exploits in the Resistance spread. Many times, he was offered leadership positions or wealth. He always refused, saying he only wished to help those in need. But just as word of his deeds passed to those in need, they passed to those who profited from the slave trade. Thanks to his shapeshifting ability, no one could ever get a firm description of him. But everyone knew of The Cloaked One, and many placed a target on his back. So it was inevitable that at times, his luck and skill would run out, and he would find himself imprisoned.

As has happened now...

And one question that has come up... How does my DR 5/magic from VoP interact with my DR 5/evil from Saint? Does an attack have to be both magic and evil to bypass?

[torrasque666]

And one question that has come up... How does my DR 5/magic from VoP interact with my DR 5/evil from Saint? Does an attack have to be both magic and evil to bypass?
Pretty much, yeah. But when you hit level 12, your saint DR upgrades to DR 10/Evil which means that it will block the 10 damage except from evil weapons, but if for some reason its Evil but not Magic you'll still block that 5 damage. And then at 15th level your PoV DR becomes DR 5/Evil at which point its just the DR 10 that counts.

[erok0809]

I just want to say, that is a great backstory. Well done!

[ZamielVanWeber]

Looks solid. IIRC the wis to ac of the Saint is an insight so you may want to change your block to reflect that. Nice job on the backstory by the way; I actually had a saint do something (except it was for pirates instead of children) so I highly approve of the choice.

[Yuki Akuma]

Can my familiar own and use wands if I have VoP?

She certainly never took a Vow of Poverty, and as Examplars of Pure Chaotic Good I'm unsure vows really hold much significance for Eladrins in any case.

If your DM makes frowny faces at you, though, you could simply get your party members to lend your familiar wands that they own.