Summon monster question?

[Arc_knight25]

I have a feeling what my answer is going to be. But let's try it anyways.

Is there anything from letting a player milk poison or venom from a monster that was summoned?

Would it be game breaking to allow a player to do so?

I'm looking to give a player a nice perk for mid game.

Player is focused on using poison. This will give them a better chance without using their wealth to purchase poisons.

Player is a Druid with plant domain. Was thinking of letting them ingest poison and let there level 6 plant domain ability apply to there spikes. So that would be 3 levels of them poisoning themselves before venom immunity.

Thought?

[Doc_Maynot]

To quote the Poison Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0)


Animals & Vermin: one of the most intuitive ways to get the base materials for poisons is to get them from animal companions, pets, etc.

According to Drow of the Underdark, it's a DC 15 Handle Animal check to get a vermin to bestow its venom into a container, and then a DC 15 Craft (Poisonmaking) check to distill the poison. As a DM, I would require 1/6th of the cost of the poison to be paid as part of the DC 15 Craft (Poisonmaking) check to distill the poison. It doesn't state the time required or the amount of poison that can be distilled per day, but one dose per day is a reasonable assumption. As noted earlier, it requires the Vermin Handler feat to do this, or a related ability - presumably Wild Empathy or Vermin Empathy would also work for this.

[MesiDoomstalker]

If the critter providing your raw poison is brought by a [Summoning] effect, the poison would disappear after the spell ends, just like any ongoing spell effect such a critter inflicts. Basically, if something comes to your plane via a [Summoning], its existence is entirely temporary. That includes things like its poison.

[lytokk]

My only thought would be the duration of the summon spell. I'm not sure how long it takes to milk any substantial venom from a snake, but I would use that as a baseline for measurement.


If the critter providing your raw poison is brought by a [Summoning] effect, the poison would disappear after the spell ends, just like any ongoing spell effect such a critter inflicts. Basically, if something comes to your plane via a [Summoning], its existence is entirely temporary. That includes things like its poison.

I thought this would be a problem, but then had another thought. If a summoned creature invenomates another creature, does the venom in creature b's blood vanish when the duration ends? I'd think it doesn't.

[Uncle Pine]

If the critter providing your raw poison is brought by a [Summoning] effect, the poison would disappear after the spell ends, just like any ongoing spell effect such a critter inflicts. Basically, if something comes to your plane via a [Summoning], its existence is entirely temporary. That includes things like its poison.

This is accurate.

Moreover, if the player is a Druid why doesn't he just take a venomous animal companion?

[Arc_knight25]

If the critter providing your raw poison is brought by a [Summoning] effect, the poison would disappear after the spell ends, just like any ongoing spell effect such a critter inflicts. Basically, if something comes to your plane via a [Summoning], its existence is entirely temporary. That includes things like its poison.

This was my thought. But I'm willing to waive it for this character with sometime spent training to do some. I'm not worried about this character abusing the ability to do so.


This is accurate.

Moreover, if the player is a Druid why doesn't he just take a venomous animal companion?

Player chose the domain ability instead of the animal companion. We are playing pathfinder. Was also thinking of reworking them into the leshy warden archetype.

[Draco_Lord]

If you are looking for something to reward them with, rather then using summon monster, why not give them something else that lets them prepare poison over and over? A small snake companion. A magic item that can reproduce poisons presented to it, maybe a vial or two every day, or have some kind of lessor gold cost. Something to that effect?

[Arc_knight25]

If you are looking for something to reward them with, rather then using summon monster, why not give them something else that lets them prepare poison over and over? A small snake companion. A magic item that can reproduce poisons presented to it, maybe a vial or two every day, or have some kind of lessor gold cost. Something to that effect?

Not a bad idea. just would need to decide on how to deliver it to the player. But I would cap it at 3 times day.

[Flickerdart]

All that the Summoning subschool has to say is this:


A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again.

When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells.

So a summoned creature's spells expire, but it doesn't say anything about its venom. Though one could make the argument that a poison is part of the creature's body and is thus returned, one could also make the argument that once something is separated from the living creature, it is no longer a creature but an object, and therefore ought to fall under the rules for summoned objects (which are not sent back).

[Urpriest]

So far, nobody has posted anything saying how long it takes to milk a creature for its venom. My guess is that for most real creatures it takes longer than the 1-2 minutes that most Summoning spells will last.

[Draco_Lord]

So far, nobody has posted anything saying how long it takes to milk a creature for its venom. My guess is that for most real creatures it takes longer than the 1-2 minutes that most Summoning spells will last.

I would personally argue it would take less time. Well, depends a bit on how much poison you would want to get out of it. But since a lot of poison involves being given is in the form of a bit attack, getting a single dose of the poison should take about 6-30 seconds, assuming you have the proper equipment and make the handle animal check, since all you are doing is having the creature bite something, and inject its poison into some kind of container. A full milking probably depends on the size of the creature.

[Arc_knight25]

It seems so long as you can communicate with it you can get it to perform other actions according to the spell description of both Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally.

So if you can communicate with it you can tell it to get milked. Which should minimize on the milking period.

As stated before, I would cap it at a 3/day by level 20. So give the Ability at level 6, increase to 2/day at 12 and finish it off with 3/day at level 18.


So each per day would give you one dose of poison from the creature that you summon. I believe I will make it act like a summon monster/nature's ally, but the creature summoned will only be used for the milking of its poison and not cost the player any spell slots.

Also will let them ingest poison so it can be applied to the Plant domain's level 6 ability. Which is the character gets covered in thorny spikes and creatures attacking them with anything but ranged or reach weapons take damage. So they would also be hit with the poison, that the character ingested. It will be an interesting 3 levels till the character is immune to poison.

Again this is only something to add to give the player a small boon. I intend to do something similar with all the other players at the table.