Fiend of Possession in a high level game - feat help needed

[Heliomance]

A friend of mine has announced intent to run a high level short campaign, starting at level 20 and probably going up from there. Optimisation level is medium to high (not remotely on the Tippy scale), Epic Spellcasting is banned, other than that the only real restriction is "don't be a ****". And I have absolutely no idea what to play! There's just too many options.

I'm wondering about maybe doing something psionic, though it would be my first time using the psionics system. I've though about a skillmonkey, which sounds like it might bequite fun if properly built. I've wondered about a War Weaver. I just can't decide! Help?

[Flickerdart]

Well, you'll be facing down Epic challenges, so take a look at those to see what you're up against. Expect to have to soldier through every possible immunity, as well as every possible status effect being thrown at you, probably at the same time, probably at an obscene DC.

Acquire exotic movement modes and effective attacks at range to kite monsters that are just "pile of hit points and attacks."

Epic skills are actually pretty disappointing, most of them are "replicate this low-level spell." Just be a caster and pretend you're just that good at Bluff that you can do suggestion by talking to someone.

[Troacctid]

Well you should certainly be some kind of caster, because they scale way better to that level than anybody else, and there's no reason not to get 9th level spells if you have the option. That's not mutually exclusive with a skillmonkey, though. There are plenty of fine prestige classes that will net you both casting and skill points. Urban Savant could be good, for example.

[daremetoidareyo]

Straight silverbrow human marshal 20 with maxed out handle animal skill and
wild cohort
draconic aura
double draconic aura
mounted combat

pump up those knowledge skills and switch out draconic resistances, and minor aura save modifiers appropriately.

And then don't do anything except yell at your team mates from the back of your battle titan dinosaur.

[Heliomance]

Ooh, I could actually play a Fiend of Possession at that level, potentially. I've been wanting to do that for a while. Would that be viable? I gather it combos well with Psionics, though lost manifester levels would be a problem. Also apparently we're staying with exactly enough xp for level 20, so any XP expenditure in char gen will result in starting at 19.

[Rubik]

If LA buyoff is in effect, you could always go psion 3/ghost savage progression 5/psion/thrallherd, buying off each level of the savage progression as you get them, and since you only ever have 1 LA at a time, each level only costs, what, 3,000 XP? So you end up as psion 9/thrallherd 10/ghost 5 with some XP left over for crafting or whatever. Use your thrall as a surrogate body, focusing on stuff it won't lose when you're possessing it.

Also, buy Psychic Chirurgery for as many powers as you can.

And once you hit epic, consider taking levels in metamind, along with Practiced Manifester, since the loss of MLs won't affect you in the least.

[Sir Chuckles]

A Feral Dragonborn Dwarf Wildshape Ranger/MoMF/Warshaper.

[Heliomance]

Just asked about LA buyoff - we're allowed +1 LA assumed to be already bought off for free, but he'd prefer not to do LA buyoff or crafting or anything like that because that involves different people having different levels of XP which means more bookkeeping.

My current thinking is Kaorti 3(1 free LA)/Ardent X/Fiend of Possession 6/Thrallherd Y, taking a Swiftblade as my thrall wielding a Kaorti Resin Elven Courtblade (which I spend most of my time possessing). Unfortunately, that only ends up with a manifester level of 10 at level 20. Practissed Manifester boosts that to 14, and an orange Ioun stone takes it to 15, but I still need to boost my ML by two more in order to hit 9th level powers. Any ideas?

[ericgrau]

You can always cast 9s with psicrowns worst case scenario. Unless you want 9s for prerequisites for certain epic feats. You have plenty of WBL for it. In general any status effect or enemy immunity or essential special ability you need that isn't covered by your powers can be covered with items. For rare situational challenges get the ability to do it at least 3 or 4 times (ever). For common needs get items that can do it more often.

[AmberVael]

If the optimization level isn't too high and you plan to go notably above 20th level, a concern for a psionic character will be power points. Power points stop raising completely after level 20, but the prices for relevant powers keeps rising. If you're allowed to use a power point recharge trick it can be okay, or if your DM houserules power points so you keep getting them it can be fine- and you can also generally manage if you don't go too far above level 20. But its something to keep in mind.

I'd recommend against Fiend of Possession. You can do a lot of it just with psionics, and being a full psionic character will serve you much better than having psionics and fiend of possession. Like any other caster, you really don't want to lose too many manifester levels as a psionic character.

If you do want to go with Fiend of Possession just for fun, consider trying a different race than Kaorti. The FoP handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7518.0) details some less race intensive ways to enter, though they might involve some sneaky tricks. If you could drop your LA down though, you'd be set.

[Heliomance]

If the optimization level isn't too high and you plan to go notably above 20th level, a concern for a psionic character will be power points. Power points stop raising completely after level 20, but the prices for relevant powers keeps rising. If you're allowed to use a power point recharge trick it can be okay, or if your DM houserules power points so you keep getting them it can be fine- and you can also generally manage if you don't go too far above level 20. But its something to keep in mind.

I'd recommend against Fiend of Possession. You can do a lot of it just with psionics, and being a full psionic character will serve you much better than having psionics and fiend of possession. Like any other caster, you really don't want to lose too many manifester levels as a psionic character.

If you do want to go with Fiend of Possession just for fun, consider trying a different race than Kaorti. The FoP handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7518.0) details some less race intensive ways to enter, though they might involve some sneaky tricks. If you could drop your LA down though, you'd be set.

I want to play a Fiend of Possession, primarily. Ardent was chosen because it's multiclass-friendly, it gives me abilities I can use while possessing things, and it gives me access to Thrallherd, and thus to a beatstick I can possess all the time (or whose weapon I can possess, anyway).

Kaorti is the easiest way to enter that doesn't involved the Ritual of Alignment, which strikes me as less likely to go down well with my DM.

[Rubik]

I like finding lots of sources of feats -- from magical locations to racial feats. to magic items to the armor and shield proficiency feats from classes (see the feat descriptions for details) and DCFSing them into lots of Improved Manifestation feats. Also look for cheap powers that still give major bang for your pp buck. Psionic Grease, for instance, always costs 1 pp but screws every golem (and most other nonintelligent, nonflying, corporeal creatures) in the game.

[AmberVael]

I like finding lots of sources of feats -- from magical locations to racial feats. to magic items to the armor and shield proficiency feats from classes (see the feat descriptions for details) and DCFSing them into lots of Improved Manifestation feats. Also look for cheap powers that still give major bang for your pp buck. Psionic Grease, for instance, always costs 1 pp but screws every golem (and most other nonintelligent, nonflying, corporeal creatures) in the game.

I don't believe this actually works. Epic Feats, while similarly named, are not quite the same as Feats- they're listed differently and separately, not as a category of feat like Metamagic Feats or Wild Feats, but as their own separate entity. They don't just have a prerequisite of 21 or more levels either- its specifically spelled out how you can obtain Epic Feats, and the list of ways is very short. While there may be exceptions to those listed ways, they need a specific rule, and the Chaos Shuffle does not provide it even if it CAN shuffle around Epic Feats (which it may not be able to in the first place).

[ericgrau]

If the optimization level isn't too high and you plan to go notably above 20th level, a concern for a psionic character will be power points. Power points stop raising completely after level 20, but the prices for relevant powers keeps rising. If you're allowed to use a power point recharge trick it can be okay, or if your DM houserules power points so you keep getting them it can be fine- and you can also generally manage if you don't go too far above level 20. But its something to keep in mind.
Also psicrowns for your favorite powers... at epic level you may as well poop out diamonds. Probably those that don't augment well and then you can blow your own PP on those that do augment well.

Grease doesn't really screw ever golems and what not so much as give them a -4 if you're lucky and they roll low. If the golem, or possibly some other more intelligent foe, decides to put itself into a loop to escape a little inconvenience then that's the DM's fault. But hey, whatever he let's fly I suppose. Though with epic saves vs a 1st level power even then I think you're better off popping something with a bit more punch. Don't be stingy on the backup power containing items as you can afford them 10 times over.

[atemu1234]

How high does optimization go? I have a couple builds that may help you... and that may be too powerful. I believe, however, that the responsibility to not break the game is with the players and the DM shouldn't have to nerf or remove anything. My games have held to this line of thinking, at any rate.

[Heliomance]

I'm stuck on feats now. I've gone Ardent 6/Thrallherd 5. I've taken the Planes, Mental Might, Life, and Communications mantles (subbing Mindlink into Communication as per Mind's Eye (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) to qualify for Thrallherd). I've got Martial Study (Shadow Hand) (for Hide as a class skill), Inquisitor, Practiced Manifester, and Overchannel. I have three feats left, and not a clue what to do with them.

[Rubik]

I'm stuck on feats now. I've gone Ardent 6/Thrallherd 5. I've taken the Planes, Mental Might, Life, and Communications mantles (subbing Mindlink into Communication as per Mind's Eye (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) to qualify for Thrallherd). I've got Martial Study (Shadow Hand) (for Hide as a class skill), Inquisitor, Practiced Manifester, and Overchannel. I have three feats left, and not a clue what to do with them.Linked Power is a definite, so take that. So useful in so many situations.

Psicrystal Affinity is quite amazing on its own for so many reasons, but combining that with Psicrystal Containment is pretty swole, I must say, especially when you start Linking powers together.

[edit] And didn't you say you were starting at level 20?

[Heliomance]

Linked Power is a definite, so take that. So useful in so many situations.

Psicrystal Affinity is quite amazing on its own for so many reasons, but combining that with Psicrystal Containment is pretty swole, I must say, especially when you start Linking powers together.

[edit] And didn't you say you were starting at level 20?

Kaorti HD 2/LA 1/Ardent 6/Fiend of Possession 6/Thrallherd 5.

I did wonder about a psicrystal. I don't have Metamorphosis, though, nor many touch-range powers that would benefit from being cast through it. What are the benefits of a psicrystal, apart from its personality?


Id Insinuation
Mind Thrust
Psionic Dimensional Anchor
Psionic Plane Shift
Psionic Revivify
Mindlink
Mend Wounds
Intellect Fortress
Psionic Dismissal
Hypercognition
Psionic Restoration
Psionic Dominate
Psionic Charm

[Rubik]

Kaorti HD 2/LA 1/Ardent 6/Fiend of Possession 6/Thrallherd 5.

I did wonder about a psicrystal. I don't have Metamorphosis, though, nor many touch-range powers that would benefit from being cast through it. What are the benefits of a psicrystal, apart from its personality?


Id Insinuation
Mind Thrust
Psionic Dimensional Anchor
Psionic Plane Shift
Psionic Revivify
Mindlink
Mend Wounds
Intellect Fortress
Psionic Dismissal
Hypercognition
Psionic Restoration
Psionic Dominate
Psionic CharmSince you're losing out on so very many manifester levels, you should try to take Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) instead of Practiced Manifester to make up for it. Either that, or take Practiced Manifester for both ardent and thrallherd to boost your ML by 8.

As to the psicrystal question: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?147603-Best-things-to-do-with-a-psicrystal

[Heliomance]

Since you're losing out on so very many manifester levels, you should try to take Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) instead of Practiced Manifester to make up for it. Either that, or take Practiced Manifester for both ardent and thrallherd to boost your ML by 8.

As to the psicrystal question: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?147603-Best-things-to-do-with-a-psicrystal

Thrallherd doesn't have its own manifesting, taking Practiced Manifester for that isn't kosher. And I'm seriously unconvinced that Psionics qualifies for Supernatural Tranformation, and even if it does it is stinky stinky cheese of the highest degree. Besides, Practised Manifester and Overchannel together get my ML up to 17, and I have a Torc of Power Preservation which effectively puts it up by another 1. And I plan on getting an orange prism ioun stone at some point which will raise it another 1. I can access 9th level powers, what more is needed?

[Rubik]

Thrallherd doesn't have its own manifesting, taking Practiced Manifester for that isn't kosher. And I'm seriously unconvinced that Psionics qualifies for Supernatural Tranformation, and even if it does it is stinky stinky cheese of the highest degree. Besides, Practised Manifester and Overchannel together get my ML up to 17, and I have a Torc of Power Preservation which effectively puts it up by another 1. And I plan on getting an orange prism ioun stone at some point which will raise it another 1. I can access 9th level powers, what more is needed?You're entering epic. You're practically entering ultra-nacho territory as it is. However, you won't have access to 9ths, since you only get that high of a manifester level with Overchannel, so you won't qualify for 9ths without additional long-term ML boosts.

And Practiced Manifester just says "a manifesting class," not that it needs to be a base class, and since thrallherd progresses manifesting, it counts.

[Heliomance]

You're entering epic. You're practically entering ultra-nacho territory as it is. However, you won't have access to 9ths, since you only get that high of a manifester level with Overchannel, so you won't qualify for 9ths without additional long-term ML boosts.

And Practiced Manifester just says "a manifesting class," not that it needs to be a base class, and since thrallherd progresses manifesting, it counts.

Overchannel explicitly says it raises the amount of power points you can spend on a power. Since that's the only limitation on learning Ardent powers, I'm not seeing any reason why it doesn't let you learn and use higher level powers. As it stands though I didn't take any 9ths anyway, so it's a moot point. And as for Practiced Manifester, it says "Your manifester level for the chosen manifesting class increases by four.". I don't have a Thrallherd manifester level. Thrallherd progresses my Ardent manifester level. Practiced Manifester gives no benefit when applied to Thrallherd.

[Heliomance]

So, I was thinking about Linked Power, Psicrystal Affinity, and Expanded Knowledge (Metamorphosis). DM's ruled that the Psicrystal HD would be based off my Ardent level only though, which would mean it only had 6 HD, and Metamorphosising it into a beatstick wouldn't be terribly useful in a high level game. So I'm back to square one.

[Rubik]

So, I was thinking about Linked Power, Psicrystal Affinity, and Expanded Knowledge (Metamorphosis). DM's ruled that the Psicrystal HD would be based off my Ardent level only though, which would mean it only had 6 HD, and Metamorphosising it into a beatstick wouldn't be terribly useful in a high level game. So I'm back to square one.It would still have half your hp and all of your base saves and base skills, and Metamorphosis is based on your ML, not the HD of the recipient. Equip your psicrystal with a sizing/morphing weapon and the Deep Impact feat to make touch attacks, and with a decent Str score (and a [de]buff or two), that should be enough in later levels, since most monsters have pitiful touch AC.