Saga Edition Thread III: Saga Academy

[LibraryOgre]

We've hit page 50, I figured it was time to start a new one. Have Blaster, will travel, and all that. Feel free to restart any discussions you have going.

Since Hyena started the first one out with some useful links, I thought it might be good to bring those over.


I've noticed there is no SWSE discussion thread on this forum, yet SWSE seems to be rather popular. I felt oblieged to correct this outrageous mistake.

List of links you might find useful:
List of every single feat provided with the number of the page. (http://files.meetup.com/1516835/Saga_Edition_feats.pdf)
Same for talents (http://www.nckcn.com/homepage/csewell/jake/starwarstalenttrees.htm)
Bonus feats for every class (http://kotor.griffcrier.com/bookshelf/bonus-feats-index/)


More useful links:

Saga Edition Errata (http://rpg.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Saga_Edition_Official_Errata)
The Omegadex (http://www.penandpapergames.com/forums/showthread.php/16157-Star-Wars-Saga-Completed-Omegadex-1-9): Page Reference for every species, class, feat, talent, piece of equipment, creature, character, or anything else in SAGA with a page reference.



Now man your posts, and may the Force be with you.

[Yora]

According to KotOR Campaign Guide pg 70, "sonic damage cannot be deflected with a lightsaber. If a weapon deals bonus sonic damage in addition to its normal damage and is not purely an energy attack, the attack can be deflected by a lightsaber, but the target still takes the sonic damage regardless (just not the weapon's normal energy damage) if the attack would normally hit." Therefore, if an attack deals damage in multiple forms, blocking one does not block all.
I think this is rather the exception to the rule, not how it normally works. Don't know where it is in Saga, but pretty much all d20 games have it somewhere that negating the weapon damage from a poisoned blade also keeps the target from being poisoned.

[Alejandro]

What sort of weapon would that be? A melee weapon that also does sonic damage, that isn't hurting the wielder?

[LibraryOgre]

What sort of weapon would that be? A melee weapon that also does sonic damage, that isn't hurting the wielder?

Maybe one that creates a narrow cone of sound that surrounds the blade? Or a "Thundering" weapon... once you hit with it, it explodes with sonic damage.

[Nerd-o-rama]

More useful links:

Saga Edition Errata (http://rpg.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Saga_Edition_Official_Errata)
The Omegadex (http://www.penandpapergames.com/forums/showthread.php/16157-Star-Wars-Saga-Completed-Omegadex-1-9): Page Reference for every species, class, feat, talent, piece of equipment, creature, character, or anything else in SAGA with a page reference.

[Philistine]

There's also the Official FAQ Compilation (http://community.wizards.com/forum/mess-hall/threads/1119781).

[Getsugaru]

I was wondering whether or not it would be best to ask for help creating stats for an EU Force artifact in this thread or if it would be better to make a new thread. Can anyone tell me whether or not something like that should be a new thread or not?

[Philistine]

That kind of question is exactly what this thread is for.

[Getsugaru]

Well then, I am currently working on recreating the Sith Artifact known as the "Yoke of Seeming." I've figured out a lot of it, but I'm having trouble with one of the functions the artifact provides. From the Wookiepedia page:

...Haazen acquired it and installed it as one of his cybernetic parts. It significantly increased his connection to the Living Force and allowed him to cloud other Jedi's senses, hiding his true intentions from them. In addition to clouding his intentions, the Yoke transmitted to all Force-users the sense of himself that Haazen wished to convey. So while other Jedi could accurately see his true disfigured form, they would not react too viscerally to it. At his own preference, Haazen could also minimize its effects as he did during a discussion with Lucien Draay, during which he wanted to convey revulsion.
I'm uncertain of how to do the intention-clouding and sense of himself parts. Any suggestions? For comparison of strength values, I'm trying to be on par with the Fell Star, Mask of Nihilus and Muur Talisman artifacts that are already statted.

[Philistine]

"Intention-clouding" sounds like it would allow the user to spoof UtF checks to Sense Force or otherwise determine the user's Dark Side score (or even whether the user has a Dark Side score). The other kinda sounds like a disguise effect, along the lines of the Clawdite racial ability but refluffed as "you can see the telltale stigmata of the Dark Side marring (the user)'s face when you focus your attention on it, but somehow (the user) still comes across as non-threatening/helpful/friendly/whatever."

[Getsugaru]

So a Use the Force-based disguise along the lines of Deceptive Appearance, but as a full round action for no penalty?

[Gamgee]

Awww I don't like this topics title at all. It doesn't follow progression... grrr... :redcloak:

[Nerd-o-rama]

Oh, I ran the first session of Dawn of Defiance last Monday. With a few tweaks to get people more involved, everyone had a really good time.

This was also my first session of actually running SAGA, though, and one thing I noticed was that the CL 1 enemies tended to go down in a single attack (or two from the Jawa who insists on using an ion pistol on organics because it's his Cultural Heritage or something). This was in part due to people buying expensive, high-damage blasters and being smart about getting around cover, (I am very tactically proud of them), but the only bad guys who survived long enough to do any damage shot, respectively, an NPC, another NPC, and finally the Trandoshan Soldier with a mounted blaster cannon. That did half his HP in damage in one attack, so hey, that was at least nicely D&D.

Anyway, I think I might beef up Stormtrooper HP a little from what's written in the module to make them last a bit longer, or at least focus on more corridor-y encounters where it's harder to move around cover. If nothing else, I'll make my Noble burn some of his Wealthhax on keeping a stock of grenades.

[Mando Knight]

The idea behind the basic stormies having only 10 HP is that they do go down in one good hit (even a standard blaster pistol has an average of 3d6, which is enough to knock a trooper down even if it doesn't kill him). I'd use the Heavy Stormtrooper and Clone Trooper stats for the slightly-better troopers, if you'd like pre-made stats.

[kreenlover]

Indeed. In Saga basically anyone with solely NPC class levels is going to be murdered in one or two hits. NPCs don't get the survivability that those lucky enough to take PC class levels do.

On another note, I've been statting up some stuff from the Force Unleashed II. Since people occasionally post stats of things here I figured I'd link what I have so far. Been posting it on a blog, so, yah.

http://dmagain.blogspot.ca/

Hope you guys might find that helpful. If you see something that should be changed, lemme know.

[Nerd-o-rama]

The idea behind the basic stormies having only 10 HP is that they do go down in one good hit (even a standard blaster pistol has an average of 3d6, which is enough to knock a trooper down even if it doesn't kill him). I'd use the Heavy Stormtrooper and Clone Trooper stats for the slightly-better troopers, if you'd like pre-made stats.

Really, I guess any of them I want to survive for more than a round just need to hunker down, or I need to add more. OHKOs fit the setting and the encounter design, I just want the encounters to last a couple rounds longer. Adding a couple more mooks to each encounter should work too...I have five and I believe the modules are very specifically balanced for four under-optimized characters, like D&D pre-writtens.

[Seatbelt]

Encounter balance in Dawn of Defiance is pretty awful. But in general combat for the first two chapters is super lethal for everyone and then the party quickly starts to out-pace the ability of NPCs to even hit them, nevermind do meaningful damage.

And if you have a force user? Forget about it?

[Alejandro]

You can always have the stormtroopers do things like use smoke grenades and cover (or both at once) to make themselves a lot harder to hit. But what others said is true.

I tried asking this as its own thread but got no reply, so I will try here in case some players are also old Star Wars D6 players:

I started running a SW D6 game again; played large campaigns of it years ago. There are some things our group wants to change, like:

Why are Melee Combat and Melee Parry two separate skills, when Lightsaber gets to be a single skill used for both attack and block? We want to just have a single skill, Melee Combat, and use it for both.

Lightsaber Combat: The power is too bulky to use, especially for a 'low level' Jedi that may not even be able to activate the power, and the multiple action penalties may actually make them worse, not better, at using their lightsaber. What is a good alternate way to handle that power?

[Philistine]

... the Jawa who insists on using an ion pistol on organics because it's his Cultural Heritage or something.

As long as he's aware that ion damage is quartered against organics (http://community.wizards.com/comment/11505961#comment-11505961) (see the 12th question asked and answered in the 4th post of the thread there).

On the bright side, it sounds like you can largely discount his character for the purposes of balancing encounters - effectively bringing you back to the expected four-PC party.

[Mando Knight]

As long as he's aware that ion damage is quartered against organics (http://community.wizards.com/comment/11505961#comment-11505961) (see the 12th question asked and answered in the 4th post of the thread there).

Yeah, it's not how the book reads at all, and is a huge part of why ion damage is worthless, but that's apparently the official answer...

[Philistine]

Yeah, unfortunately the book isn't very clear on how ion damage works - the two "half damage" lines are in two different places and it's not immediately obvious that they refer to two separate operations (though the errata that changes "full damage" to "normal damage" in the Ion Pistol description helps a little).

[Xaragos]

One of my players wants to design and craft his own armor. I haven't found any real rules for that per say, so I wanted to see if anyone has dealt with this request before. Here is what the player wants to create:


Venom Assault Armor (Military)

-Heavy armor, 38kg
-2 upgrade slots
-Ref +10
-Fort +4
-Max Dex +1

Part powered armor, part armored space suit, Venom Assault armor provides ample protection from hostile attackers and environments. Additionally the wearer can activate the armor's limited jumps jets as a swift action to move at normal speed in zero-g. The jets are not powerful enough to lift an armored trooper in normal gravity. The suit also adds a +2 equipment bonus to the wearers strength. However, the wearer must have the armor proficiency (heavy) feat to use either the jets or gain the bonus to strength. The wearer may survive up to 24 hours in the vacuum of space or other hostile environmental conditions.

Upgrades
-Tech Specialist +1 upgrade slot
-Massassi Manufacture +10% base armor price
-Helmet Package
-Weapon Mount (1 upgrade slot) Rotary Blaster Cannon
-Internal Generator (1 upgrade slot)
-Secret Compartment (1 upgrade slot)

How would you price this and what DC's for the crafting?

[Philistine]

One of my players wants to design and craft his own armor. I haven't found any real rules for that per say, so I wanted to see if anyone has dealt with this request before. Here is what the player wants to create:


Venom Assault Armor (Military)

-Heavy armor, 38kg
-2 upgrade slots
-Ref +10
-Fort +4
-Max Dex +1

Part powered armor, part armored space suit, Venom Assault armor provides ample protection from hostile attackers and environments. Additionally the wearer can activate the armor's limited jumps jets as a swift action to move at normal speed in zero-g. The jets are not powerful enough to lift an armored trooper in normal gravity. The suit also adds a +2 equipment bonus to the wearers strength. However, the wearer must have the armor proficiency (heavy) feat to use either the jets or gain the bonus to strength. The wearer may survive up to 24 hours in the vacuum of space or other hostile environmental conditions.

Upgrades
-Tech Specialist +1 upgrade slot
-Massassi Manufacture +10% base armor price
-Helmet Package
-Weapon Mount (1 upgrade slot) Rotary Blaster Cannon
-Internal Generator (1 upgrade slot)
-Secret Compartment (1 upgrade slot)

How would you price this and what DC's for the crafting?
Yeah, there really aren't any rules for that. "Crafting" as such isn't really A Thing in SWSE. If I absolutely positively had to do come up with something for it, I suppose I might start with a look at the rules for the Starship Designer feat in Starships of the Galaxy for inspiration.

Luckily, in this case the Venom Assault Armor is already statted on p140 of the Legacy Era Campaign Guide: the cost is 17,000 credits, with Military availability adding another 20% licensing fee onto the top. Then Tech Specialist and the Massassi template add another 1,700 each. Unluckily, the actual armor only starts with one upgrade slot. A one-upgrade-slot alternative to the Weapon Mount+Internal Generator setup would be installing a Ready Harness to carry the RBC and a Power Generator, the latter possibly Miniaturized. This would also allow much greater endurance for the cannon, as the Internal Generator only stores an equivalent charge to four power packs - that's just eight shots from the rotary cannon! After that, the Internal Generator recharges at the rate of one power pack equivalent (two shots from the RBC) per hour. The Ready Harness+Generator option also saves a few credits and a few kilos of weight, not that the player seems to be worrying about either of those.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Personally, if he wanted to scratch-build it (to get around the licensing fee, say), I'd use the rules for building objects under Mechanics on page 30 of the FUCG - this is what I plan to do with my wife's character in my campaign, since she wants to play kind of a scavenger/crafter as well as covering most of the technical skills. That means the cost (whether for materials or purchasing) is as listed in the book, and the craft DC is (for powered armor) probably a 40, or a 25 if you're feeling very generous. I recommend the player pick up some schematics and, preferably, a copy of the armor he can reverse engineer, for -10 DC each.

As for hit points (for determining the number of checks it takes to craft), I don't think armor HP is listed anywhere since you can't normally attack worn armor, but for Heavy Powered Armor I'd eyeball it as at least 20 (equivalent to a weapon-size Huge, creature size Medium weapon). And, of course, you double that because it's Medium, so if he rolled the maximum possible progress on each check you'd be looking at 5 checks total.

Now, since the materials cost the same as the object's base price (plus templates, I would assume), of course all this rigamarole is only really worth it if you either 1) can't buy it straight up and don't want to pay black market markup and/or 2) have the Scavenger feat that lets you Macguyver some of the cost away. It also means you don't have to buy/forge a license in order to get it, but you'd still be in trouble with the law if you got caught without one.

[Mando Knight]

Adding an upgrade slot is not something Tech Specialist can do by RAW, and an upgrade slot is more valuable than the +1 bonuses that Tech Specialist is normally able to provide (though perhaps a Superior Tech could do so).

The cost and DC of buying and installing each component is listed in Scum & Villainy: those are all 1-slot upgrades, so they take a DC 20 check and one hour to install.

For Massassi manufactured Venom Assault Armor... how does he get his hands on it? Venom Assault Armor is advanced GA tech, while Massassi are a rare, relatively-primitive species. Gear that has a template already gets marked as Rare (p. 76 of KotOR), but advanced armor made by a people who would never have had the knowledge or technology to build it? DC 40, and the Massassi template should only be available at all if the character has taken the time to study Massassi construction techniques. If he's inventing something with the capabilities of Venom Assault Armor, there aren't going to be any schematics available for the full -10 DC.

(Now, even though VAA is probably the best heavy armor in the game and it probably wouldn't be too crazy to let your player obtain it with the Massassi template since otherwise the heavy armor proficiency feat is pretty lackluster, from a lore standpoint it just doesn't make much sense. Also, Massassi heavy armor is terrible if you don't have the Strength for it)

[Philistine]

Adding an upgrade slot is not something Tech Specialist can do by RAW, and an upgrade slot is more valuable than the +1 bonuses that Tech Specialist is normally able to provide (though perhaps a Superior Tech could do so).

This wasn't part of the original writeup of the Feat in Starships, true- but see the "Tech Specialist" sidebar on p48 of Scum & Villainy, under "Device Traits." Adding one upgrade slot to an item is totally legitimate by RAW.

[Mando Knight]

This wasn't part of the original writeup of the Feat in Starships, true- but see the "Tech Specialist" sidebar on p48 of Scum & Villainy, under "Device Traits." Adding one upgrade slot to an item is totally legitimate by RAW.

So it is. I'd missed that sidebar when I was double-checking those rules.

[Closet_Skeleton]

For Massassi manufactured Venom Assault Armor... how does he get his hands on it? Venom Assault Armor is advanced GA tech, while Massassi are a rare, relatively-primitive species.

Massassi are Sith. Massassi armour is Sith armour, you don't just go running around in Sith armour. You don't just handcraft Sith armour without having skill in Sith Alchemy (even the primitive Massassi had access to the force and working Sith Alchemy facilities).

While by RAW Massassi template is only limited to simple weapons and any kind of armour, allowing it for powered armour but not powered weapons makes no sense.

Massassi aren't just rare, they're extinct post KotOR era. Freely mixing campaign books in Star Wars is a bad idea.

[Getsugaru]

Massassi are Sith. Massassi armour is Sith armour, you don't just go running around in Sith armour. You don't just handcraft Sith armour without having skill in Sith Alchemy (even the primitive Massassi had access to the force and working Sith Alchemy facilities).

While by RAW Massassi template is only limited to simple weapons and any kind of armour, allowing it for powered armour but not powered weapons makes no sense.

Massassi aren't just rare, they're extinct post KotOR era. Freely mixing campaign books in Star Wars is a bad idea.

I am afraid you are quite wrong sir. First of all, Massassi are a subspecies of the Sith species. The Dark Jedi who came to Khorriban and subjugated them took their name; thus "Sith Armor" and "Massassi Armor" are completely different things (especially when you realize that "Sith Armor" is an actual type of armor in SAGA found in the Jedi Academy Training Manual). Second, the Massassi were believed extinct by scholars by the time of the Rise of the Empire, but that they may well have survived on long forgotten Sith worlds. In addition, there are several times in Star Wars lore where the Sith species has popped back up, usually in the form of a handful of individuals (or a large group with Lignan Ore). As such, one cannot truly state that they were only alive during the KotOR era (which, depending on your interpretation, may not even be including the TOR era where they once again popped up).

And freely mixing campaign books can be so much fun! In the case of KotOR, I've played in a couple groups set in the Clone Wars or later where the "antiquated techniques and gear" from that book have been more enjoyable than what we'd have received if the book was banned. As long as you don't do something ridiculous or unfitting to the campaign's story (i.e. be a munchkin and ignore any semblance of plot), it allows your story to head in all sorts of exciting new directions.

[Bobb]

I'm looking for usable talents for a high level gunslinger build. I don't have Galaxy of Intrigue, Unknown Regions, or Galaxy at war (the big one).

If someone could help me track down descriptions of these talents that are usable for a game I'd be eternally grateful.

Talent
Autofire assault (soldier)
Backstabber (misfortune)
Bullseye (gunslinger)
Champion (soldier)
Ferocious assault (elite trooper)
Full advance (soldier)
Ghost assailant (scout)
Grizzled warrior (soldier)
Nimble dodge (soldier)
Pistol duelist (gunslinger)
Reckless (soldier)
Stinging jab (soldier)
Swift shot (gunslinger)
Warriors awareness (Soldier)
Warriors intuition (soldier)

EDIT: I also want to say that there is a feat that allows you to boost your weapon for the encounter by using a standard action but I can't find it.

[Gamgee]

The Sith are definitely still alive 300 years later for TOR. They are even a playable race.

[RandomLunatic]

I'm looking for usable talents for a high level gunslinger build. I don't have Galaxy of Intrigue, Unknown Regions, or Galaxy at war (the big one).

If someone could help me track down descriptions of these talents that are usable for a game I'd be eternally grateful.

Talent
Autofire assault (soldier)
Backstabber (misfortune)
Bullseye (gunslinger)
Champion (soldier)
Ferocious assault (elite trooper)
Full advance (soldier)
Ghost assailant (scout)
Grizzled warrior (soldier)
Nimble dodge (soldier)
Pistol duelist (gunslinger)
Reckless (soldier)
Stinging jab (soldier)
Swift shot (gunslinger)
Warriors awareness (Soldier)
Warriors intuition (soldier)

EDIT: I also want to say that there is a feat that allows you to boost your weapon for the encounter by using a standard action but I can't find it.

Try the second link in the OP. You can also look into this (http://www.mediafire.com/download/71a778g4hwxwmia/Saga+Index+v4.0%2C+ALL+BOOKS+%28species%2C+weapons %2C+armor%2C+feats%2C+talents%2C+etc%29.zip), which is a very handy sortable list for Excel. I swear by it for character creation.

As for the second question, that sounds like the Personalized Modifications talent, which is in either Starships of the Galaxy or the Tech Specialist web enhancement (http://files.meetup.com/1340824/Saga_Edition_Web_Enhancement_1.pdf).

[Bobb]

Thank you sir!

[Bellberith]

I need help with 3 things....

First is a way to be able to use kinetic combat without having to make the use the force checks whenever i get hit by something.

And second is a way to stack morale and insight bonuses using the Kissai racial ability from KotOR if the character is by himself (self-buffs for the most part).

Last is a way to make unarmed combat work with weapon finesse.

~Thanks

[Nerd-o-rama]

Last one seems like a "talk to your GM", at least. Unarmed attacks aren't technically classed as light melee weapons, but there's no reason you shouldn't be able to say they are (perhaps at the expense of being able to use Echani Training or whatever feat it was that lets you add 2*Str to unarmed attacks under certain conditions.)

The "combined feats" rule in KOTOR Campaign Guide doesn't quite get around talking to your GM entirely, but he could reasonably ask you to take Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike as an additional feat tax as a compromise if he for some reason thinks Weapon Finesse on unarmed attacks is somehow unbalancing.

By the way, I have continued my Dawn of Defiance campaign. Haven't quite finished the first module (I spent half a session on an irrelevant sidequest since two players were going to be busy until halfway through, and finished the last session with the Scout Trooper vs. Kybuck chase setpiece), but thus far my players are doing the two things I really wanted them to:

1) my powergaming Force Sensitive Noble player is spending his Wealth money on the rest of the team's equipment and his Noble bonus feats on supplementing his buffs, rather than pimping himself out
2) they are following the plot rails nicely (even if they kind of extorted more money than really necessary from Senator Organa, they have at least done things like make nice with Switch and the Felucians. I may have threatened to be liberal with DSPs beforehand).

One thing I like about DoD is that, even if the encounters aren't really that challenging, there are neat aspects to most of them - nice maps with lots of cover, environmental hazards, optional objectives for the skill monkeys who suck at combat (especially important since that's my wife's character), etc. Combined with suggestions from the WotC board archives it's kept the encounters nice and fun and not "I stand back and shoot them with my blaster" x5 every round.


Only thing I'm having trouble with is wearing down their HP from combat to combat, but I'll burn through the Noble's medpac budget eventually...

[RandomLunatic]

I need help with 3 things....

First is a way to be able to use kinetic combat without having to make the use the force checks whenever i get hit by something.The only way I know to avoid that check (other than not getting shot, natch) is Vo'Ren's 4th Cadence, hitting the top DC of 38 (!) and then spending a Force Point. Although the lesser DCs of that regimen do give a small bonus to the sustain roll.


And second is a way to stack morale and insight bonuses using the Kissai racial ability from KotOR if the character is by himself (self-buffs for the most part).Typed bonuses will not stack with each other. If you're looking for a way to get some on yourself, you could go Officer and share one of the others-only buff talents with an ally to us on you. Or grab Noble's Self-Sufficient talent, which lets you use Inspiration talents on yourself (which, for your purposes, is just Inspire Confidence). Or you go off the beaten path and find some talents that do work on yourself. Find Openings springs to mind.


Last is a way to make unarmed combat work with weapon finesse.They already do. If you check the FAQ (http://community.wizards.com/forum/mess-hall/threads/1119781) linked upthread, you'll find unarmed strikes are considered light, simple weapons.



Q: What weapon group includes unarmed attacks? Are you automatically proficient with unarmed attacks? Can you use them with combat feats like Double Attack? Can you use them with talent trees like Weapon Specialist and Weapon Mastery?

A: Unarmed attacks are considered light melee simple weapons and can be finessed, used in a grapple, or dual wielded.

[Philistine]

Only thing I'm having trouble with is wearing down their HP from combat to combat, but I'll burn through the Noble's medpac budget eventually...

With the once per character per day limit on First Aid, the party's medpac budget isn't normally the major limiting factor on healing unless the group is very resource-starved.

[Nerd-o-rama]

With the once per character per day limit on First Aid, the party's medpac budget isn't normally the major limiting factor on healing unless the group is very resource-starved.

Haha, whoops, there's my problem. Completely missed that rule.

I don't even have the excuse of "written in a screwy way" like Heal Damage and Install a Cybernetic Prosthesis being subheadings of Perform Surgery despite not being formatted as such.

[Philistine]

Yeah. I've seen a couple of GMs houserule First Aid to remove the daily limit, because it makes healing sufficiently scarce and slow to be a major problem for some parties. Second Wind is another once-per-day, and the Force powers Vital Transfer and Dark Transfer both have significant per-use costs. And that's it for in-combat healing: the next fastest option (Heal Damage with Surgical Expertise) takes a minimum of ten minutes to grant its benefit, and the next fastest after that (Put Other in Force Trance) requires at least a full hour of downtime. A party on the run might already have difficulty making time for those; but for a low level party, or a party without a trained surgeon or Force user in the group, recovery time for a single firefight might be measured in days or weeks.

[Agrippa]

I'm working on a project to file the Star Wars serial numbers off of Saga edition and open it up to other settings. One of the thing I'm trying to do is renaming the main Jedi talent trees. I've already renamed Jedi Sentinel to Occult Hunter and Divine Speech for Jedi Consular. Help with any other Jedi/Sith/general Force based talent trees would be welcome.

[LibraryOgre]

Kinda depends on what sort of setting you're going for... it sounds somewhat like Fading Suns, but more detail would help to decide.

[Bellberith]

If i am using Kinetic Combat and wielding Dual-Phase lightsabers do i get the -2 to reflex defense for using them with Kinetic Combat? Or only if they are being used in hand?

[Mando Knight]

From reading Kinetic Combat, the power does not benefit from anything that would increase reach: the attack is explicitly only against targets adjacent to the lightsaber's square, not those within reach. In essence, KC replaces reach in that manner. Similarly, you are no longer wielding the dual-phase lightsaber manually, so you would not suffer the penalty associated with trying to use the negated benefit.

[Agrippa]

Kinda depends on what sort of setting you're going for... it sounds somewhat like Fading Suns, but more detail would help to decide.

If you really want to know what sort of setting I'm going for it wouldn't hurt to start with these links of mine. I'll explain more tomorrow when I can.

Coming up with a world for the Burrwood Institute (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?372974-Coming-up-with-a-world-for-the-Burrwood-Institute)
Cities for the Burrwood setting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423321-Cities-for-the-Burrwood-setting)
On making an adventuring academy hub thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?340192-On-making-an-adventurer-academy-hub-thread)

[Agrippa]

So, is that enough detail for you Mark Hall? I have some more here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?352347-Adventurer-academy-More-staff-and-maybe-even-more-positions) if you want it.

[chainer1216]

Hello all! I have an up coming game and have a pretty clear idea of what I want to play but I'm not sure on how to put all the pieces together to make something functional.

Level: 7
Race: Nagai
Force sensitive: yes
Idea: the character is going to be a mandalorian focused on infiltration, sabatoge and "selective target removal" so I want to me good at stealth, mechanics and computer use. I know I want the force powers of cloak and phase, and that I want my main method of fighting to be with the nagai's tekla blades.

Any ideas on how to make this all work?

[Nerd-o-rama]

You might be trying to do a few two many things, but let's see...

This sounds like a Scoundrel/Scout build aiming for Infiltrator to me, with a level or three of Soldier not being out of place. Let's see...

For abilities, focus on Dexterity, followed by Charisma, and just keep everything else out of the negatives. 10/17/10/12/12/13 after racial modifiers is more than sufficient with 25 PB. Put any additional starting points in Con or Wisdom and level up points into Dex and either Wis or Cha

Scoundrel 1 | Feat: Force Sensititive | Talent: Dastardly Strike | Skills: Mechanics, Perception, Stealth, Use Computer, Use the Force
Soldier 1 | Feat: Armor Proficiency Light | Talent: Force Cloak
Scout 1 | Feats: Weapon Proficiency Rifles (unless by some miracle you manage 13 Con, then take Shake it Off), Weapon Finesse | Talent: Improved Stealth
Scout 2 | Bonus Feat: Skill Focus Stealth
Scout 3 | Talent: Hidden Movement
Scout 4 | Feat: Force Training (Cloak x2) | Bonus Feat: Skill Focus Use the Force
Scout 5 | Talent: Shadow Striker

And that sets you up to take Infiltrator, with nice talents like Concealed Weapon Expert (make sure the GM counts Tehk'las for that, which he should), Creeping Approach, and Silent Takedown, and the Lead Infiltrator class feature, which lets you make Stealth checks for (Charisma Bonus, then 2x Charisma Bonus) allies at once, synergizing nicely with your Nagai hotness.

As an alternative, if you want to skip the Force-using aspect, it'll free up three feats and a talent from the above build, letting you pick up some Martial Arts (to synergize with Infiltrator's Unarmed Stun feature) and let you go Scoundrel 1/Scout 3/Soldier 3 to pick up Stunning Strike and make your BAB slightly less terrible.

[Blackdrop]

So, quick ruling question:

The Suppression Fire feat (TotG 91) says: "When you use the aid another action to impose a penalty to an enemy's attack rolls and your attack roll exceeds the target's Will Defense, that enemy must end it's turn in a position where it has cover from you if possible."


How would you say that interacts with the Coordinated Attack feat (SWC 83), which allows you to automatically succeed on the attack roll when aiding an ally's attack or suppressing an enemy? Would it be:

A)You apply both the attack roll penalty and the target has to find cover automatically.

or

B)You apply the attack roll penalty automatically and have the player roll the attack roll to see if the target has to find cover

My gut and rules-lawyer fu tells me that it's option A, but I was curious about what you guys thought.

[Mando Knight]

Option B.

Coordinated Attack is a free success against the Reflex 10 for Aid Another, regardless of distance. A free success against Will Defense, even for an effect as relatively minor as Suppression Fire, is too much for a single Feat + Talent combo.

[Blackdrop]

Option B.

Coordinated Attack is a free success against the Reflex 10 for Aid Another, regardless of distance. A free success against Will Defense, even for an effect as relatively minor as Suppression Fire, is too much for a single Feat + Talent combo.

It's four feats actually (Coordinated Attack + Suppression Fire, which needs Burst Fire, which need Heavy Weapon Proficiency), so the earliest a non-Soldier could complete the Combo is level 9 (level 6 for a human non-soldier and non-human soldier, level 3 for a human soldier) and Coordinated Attack is only against adjacent and point-blank targets, so I disagree that it's too strong.

[Mando Knight]

You're still letting the Coordinated Attack change an attack roll to an auto-success... it's the three-feat chain to get the option of Suppression Fire, and then one more feat to change it into an auto-success?

Coordinated Attack as-written just lets you auto-succeed at the basic applications of the Aid Another action in point-blank range (I had forgotten that stipulation earlier)... you'll always succeed at the DC10 attack roll regardless of other penalties or rolling a 1--it is essentially setting your minimum result to 10. Suppression Fire explicitly calls out comparing the attack roll to the target's Will Defense, which is a separate step to succeeding at the Aid Another check itself. The leap from the effective "Result is always ≥ 10" to an actual "Result = Arbitrarily High" is a bit much in my opinion, when the DC is as low as it is and the text of Coordinated Attack ignores the step (making an attack roll) called out by the text of Suppression Fire.

[Blackdrop]

You're still letting the Coordinated Attack change an attack roll to an auto-success... it's the three-feat chain to get the option of Suppression Fire, and then one more feat to change it into an auto-success?

I might just be tired, but I'm having a hard time understanding your second paragraph. However, the answer to the above is yes, I think auto-succeeding on what amounts to a -2 to Attack + move to cover that requires you to invest a decent chunk of your character build resources to accomplish is fairly reasonable, particularly now that I've looked over Suppression Fire and it doesn't affect anything higher level then you and it's a mind-effecting fear affect, which means there are whole swaths of enemies that it wouldn't work against anyway.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Going to run my last session of Dawn of Defiance: The Traitor's Gambit tonight and it took me until just now to realize how similar the whole mission is to the prologue of Metal Gear Solid 3, i.e. trekking through the jungle to snatch a defector from a suspiciously poorly-guarded facility. I only point this out because I'm an enormous MGS fan, especially of 3.

Oh well, I still have time to get a tree frog joke in. And possibly a cardboard box.

[Scowling Dragon]

Say, Im a GM, who likes having stuff like leadership in my games.

I like the followers as a concept, but don't like their execution. How would one recommend I go about making them more worthwhile?

What my ideas come too is reducing the actions required to make them do stuff, and upping their HP.

[Sith_Happens]

Oh well, I still have time to get a tree frog joke in. And possibly a duracardboard box.

Fixed that for you.:smallwink:

[Nerd-o-rama]

No duracardboard was used, but they did successfully infiltrate the facility, rescue the totally not an obvious plant, and blow the facility to smithereens. Thanks to an overall dice roll average between me and the players of about 5, it took long enough that I didn't get in the vehicle chase scene I wanted for my pilot character at the end, but all's well that ends well.

Note to self, though - my Zygerrian Soldier character has taken the mentality of "shoot the officer first to the exclusion of all else". With that combined with low HP totals for human enemies, I'll have to have my dudes with names/Noble levels standing outside of his LOS, or at least behind three directions of cover. At least the mutant Felucians weren't one-shotted, and I did make two players use Destiny Points to avoid a couple of lucky crits and a grenade (I made the Force Sensitive Noble use one to Move Light Object a frag grenade without a readied action/that grenade defense talent. Saved 80% of the party from taking 4d6/2d6 on the first round of combat while they were clustered in an elevator, though).

Anyway, a good time was had by all and I and everyone else are very hype for A Wretched Hive and various criminal shenanigans. Thus far in downtime emails my Trandoshan Soldier has acquired 1) Heavy Weapons Proficiency 2) a Miniaturized Blaster Cannon and 3) stuck his vibrobayonet on the end of that. To which I can only say "why didn't I ever think of that?"


Ah, and I did have a question unrelated to my campaign, specifically about the interaction of Far Shot, a Targeting Scope, and a Rangefinder.

1) Far Shot reduces range penalties a step, i.e. PB/Short/Medium/Long are now 0/0/-2/-5
2) Targeting scopes do the same thing, reducing range penalties as if the target is one step closer, but only while aiming: 0/0/-2/-5
3) Rangefinders simply eliminate the penalty at Short Range, but unlike scopes doesn't require you to aim, giving you 0/0/5/10

So I get that Far Shot and a Rangefinder wouldn't really stack: with Far Shot, you've already permanently eliminated the Short Range penalty and reduced the Medium and Long ones. What about Far Shot while aiming through a Targeting Scope, though? Would the reduction of the penalty and the reduction of the effective range increment stack, i.e. treating Medium as Short (so 0) and Long as Medium (so -2), giving you range penalties of 0/0/0/-2 total?

I'm asking because sniping is fun, as is kitting out a rifle with accessories.

[Philistine]

Yes, they stack. They also stack with Accurate weapons, if you ever find yourself with a need to hit targets 300 squares away without a range penalty.

In practice, though, weapon ranges are long enough in character scale that you rarely have to worry about range penalties anyway - you'll almost never have a shot longer than the point blank bracket for pistols. So it's pilots rather than snipers who get the most mileage out of Far Shot.

[Sith_Happens]

Query: What if I wish to make a shot to the knees at 120 kilometers?

[Nerd-o-rama]

Query: What if I wish to make a shot to the knees at 120 kilometers?

You'll need an Aratech rifle with a tri-light scope, and love.


Yes, they stack. They also stack with Accurate weapons, if you ever find yourself with a need to hit targets 300 squares away without a range penalty.

In practice, though, weapon ranges are long enough in character scale that you rarely have to worry about range penalties anyway - you'll almost never have a shot longer than the point blank bracket for pistols. So it's pilots rather than snipers who get the most mileage out of Far Shot.

Yeah, I can see that. I'll recommend it to my pilot Jawa, since it'll also make his pistol more effective at hitting across some of DoD's larger battlefields.

I wouldn't think they'd stack with Accurate, though, since those (like Rangefinders) just eliminate the penalty at Short Range, which Far Shot already does.

[Philistine]

Not quite. You're correct about the effect of Accurate, but eliminating the penalty for Short range is only part of the effect of Far Shot (or of a targeting scope, with Aiming). Far Shot reduces the effective range by one category, allowing you to shoot into Medium range as if it were Short - and with an Accurate weapon, you attack targets at Short range with no penalty. Meanwhile Long range is still treated as Medium range, so you go straight from no penalty to -5, skipping the -2 bracket altogether and pushing the -10 bracket right off the table. Then add a targeting scope, spend two Swifts to Aim, and now your modified Medium range (which used to be Long, before you took Far Shot) is now also effectively reduced to Short range... which gives no penalty, due to your Accurate weapon.

Rangefinders don't work in the above combo because their effect is the same as Accurate (eliminating a penalty rather than reducing effective range categories, so that combining the two has no effect), and the text explicitly disallows using a rangefinder in combination with a scope. But there is no such prohibition against combining a rangefinder with Far Shot, which opens up an amusing possibility WRT Heavy Weapons. I can't think of any Accurate heavies, and many of them want you to spend your Swift actions bracing them (meaning you can't Aim). But if you put a rangefinder on an Inaccurate weapon (which can't hit at Long range anyway), then put it in the hands of a character with Far Shot, you get no-penalty shooting out to the maximum range you can reach - which is still pretty far, even with the entire Long bracket truncated.

But as I said before, this all sounds a lot stronger than it is. In practice the extra accuracy at >100 square ranges almost never matters; indeed, it's rare enough for accuracy beyond 20 squares to come up in play. That's partly because it requires freakin' enormous maps, and partly because super-long-range sniper fights typically aren't very interesting for the pistoleros and melee folks (i.e., the majority of most parties).

[Nerd-o-rama]

Oh, I know. But if you happen to want to kill someone in particular from half a kilometer away, you may as well do it efficiently.

[Nerd-o-rama]

So has anyone come up with any fixes to make Ion damage actually useful against vehicles/starships/very large droids? The lack of such functionality due to the high DT/DR/SR of larger mechanisms - the former of which especially scales up much faster than damage, plus the fact that most vehicles are going to have a crew member dedicated to recovering either their condition or SR every round - is a big complaint with the system and a regular point of insistence that vehicle-scale Ion damage is useless.

I'm wondering this mostly because my players are kleptomaniacs (for the Cause, at least - they're happy to throw captured resources at NPCs to make the Rebellion happen more efficiently) and at least one is gunning for Master Privateer. Putting aside the fact that MP has maybe one talent related to actually disabling Starships, they are going to want to do some buccaneering, or at least try to take on capital ships much later in the campaign, and Ion weapons should really figure into both of those.

What's a good fix? As a general thought, I might go something like "Ion weapons apply their full damage to check for SR penetration, then whatever penetrates is halved" to make them as good as lasers at taking down shields and then "If a starship is moved down the Condition Track by Ion damage, the condition is Persistent and can only be overcome through the Repair action or Jury Rig (which will last exactly long enough to limp away and then put you back where you started, or worse, because it's Jury-Rig)".

[LibraryOgre]

I think "Apply full damage to check for shield penetration" is a good option. I'd also be in favor of upping their raw damage, so that they're inferior when used against non-vulnerable targets, but superior when used against vulnerable targets.

[Mando Knight]

Vehicles also have DR, I'd just state that Ion and Stun damage are halved after reductions. And because Ion cannons have terrible dice and the half-damage thing, have them also work like a basic success on Shield Hit, and strip an extra 5 SR regardless of whether the attack penetrated the shields.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Well, the damage dice are on par with lasers (light ion = light laser, medium ion = heavy laser, heavy ion = light turbolaser), so other than not actually going all the way up the scale for capital ships, the damage seems fine, it's just that most ships have ludicrously inflated DT and ion damage is only beneficial if you can break DT. Both the ideas are good, but I can't help but wonder if the problem isn't Damage Threshold scaling rather than Ion damage per se, now that I look at it.

On the other hand, you're not really supposed to take on cruisers with anything lighter than Medium Turbolaser batteries on the "lethal" side of things either.

[RandomLunatic]

Yeah, but the damage per EP is worse. A 4d10x2 medium laser is 1 EP, a 4d10x2 medium ion cannon is 2. And the laser can autofire, while the ion can't.

I've contemplated just boosting ion weapons by 2-3 dice across the board, which makes them better at tearing down shields and gives better chances of cracking DTs. But the half HP (theoretically) makes lasers the faster option for taking an enemy out of the fight. I haven't gone all the way through to consider all the ramifications yet.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yeah, but the damage per EP is worse. A 4d10x2 medium laser is 1 EP, a 4d10x2 medium ion cannon is 2. And the laser can autofire, while the ion can't.

Medium ion cannons do 5d10x2, comparable to Heavy lasers, which they share an EP cost of 2 with. And lasers can't autofire by default, not that it matters in space unless you have Burst Fire.

And I guess contrary to my earlier point Hapan Triple Ion Cannons are equivalent to Medium Turbolasers (for two less EP!), but they're both Illegal and have a higher base cost so good luck getting one of those away from Romance Novel Cover Land. Also, limited to Point Defense range, but on the plus side, they're Point Defense weapons. Hapans are weird.

[Sith_Happens]

And I guess contrary to my earlier point Hapan Triple Ion Cannons are equivalent to Medium Turbolasers (for two less EP!), but they're both Illegal and have a higher base cost so good luck getting one of those away from Romance Novel Cover Land. Also, limited to Point Defense range, but on the plus side, they're Point Defense weapons. Hapans are weird.

The heck kind of romance novels do you read?:smallconfused:

...I want them.:smalltongue:

[Nerd-o-rama]

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060127170128/starwars/images/2/2d/Courtship2.jpg

Mostly just this one. And a general agreement that Isolder is Space Fabio.

Man, I'd never actually looked at the "original" cover before. The best part of this is Leia's are-you-kriffing-kidding-me expression.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I don't mean to spam this thread with multiple double posts, but I have both two rules questions and an observation:

1) Is there a design reason that Multiattack Proficiency (whatever) is a straight -2 to penalties instead of the -10/-5/-2/0 scaling that Dual Weapon Mastery (and every other bonus/penalty system in the game) has?
2) Hawk-bat Swoop: Standard Action or Full-Round Action? I'm tempted to say Standard, since it's basically a Force-souped-up Charge, but I wanted to ask the interwebs.

Observation) I have gone completely insane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?437196-Star-Wars-SAGA-Recruiting-for-Dawn-of-Defiance). Just a heads-up.

[Sith_Happens]

Observation) I have gone completely insane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?437196-Star-Wars-SAGA-Recruiting-for-Dawn-of-Defiance). Just a heads-up.

I might apply depending on how insane I am; if all goes well then by the end of the weekend I'll already be playing in three play-by-posts and GMing one.

[Philistine]

I don't mean to spam this thread with multiple double posts, but I have both two rules questions and an observation:

1) Is there a design reason that Multiattack Proficiency (whatever) is a straight -2 to penalties instead of the -10/-5/-2/0 scaling that Dual Weapon Mastery (and every other bonus/penalty system in the game) has?
2) Hawk-bat Swoop: Standard Action or Full-Round Action? I'm tempted to say Standard, since it's basically a Force-souped-up Charge, but I wanted to ask the interwebs.

Observation) I have gone completely insane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?437196-Star-Wars-SAGA-Recruiting-for-Dawn-of-Defiance). Just a heads-up.
1) I suspect the developers didn't really expect people to take Multiattack Proficiency more than once, to cover the last -2 remaining after Dual Weapon Mastery II. By the time you get to the level where DWMIII and MAP are available, Feats are rarer than Talents.
2) I've always seen that ruled as a Standard action. Partly because it's more-or-less a Charge, mostly because we assume that things are Standard actions if not otherwise specified.

[DragonHunter]

Hi guys, I am new to this forum. But anyway, I was wondering if there was a play by post SW: Saga Edition on Giantips that I could join. I am fairly familiar with the system and have experience in roleplaying from my 3.5 D&D days. I'd like to play a 4th degree droid scoundrel/privateer character, but would be willing to play any character that the party needs.

[Philistine]

In general, the best place to look for that would be the Finding Players sub-forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?51-Finding-Players-(Recruitment)). Unfortunately I don't see any SWSE games currently recruiting, and it might be a little while before someone starts up a new one - D&D 3.5E and Pathfinder games vastly outnumber the games being run in all other systems combined.

[DragonHunter]

Thanks Phil, kind of a bummer cause I really wanted to try Saga, but anyway I will look for a 3.5 to join then. I wonder if anyone is running a Sunless Citadel campaign.

[Sparx MacGyver]

Hopefully you se this, but there are a couple paces to still find PbP for SWSE. Myth-Weavers.com is one.

A bunch of us that were active on the WOTC Saga Forum have made our own forum over at http://thesagacontinues.createaforum.com/index.php

And lastly, give the d20 radio forums a try.

[Smorgonoffz]

Hello to everyone, i'd like to create a level 10* build for a swse character..........the catch core only but not for race*I might have already asked this question in the other tread)

The archetype is unarmed combatant, i'd like to know if it's viable both as force user and non force user.


Race : Human

Starting class: no idea jedi/Soldier?

The soldier is the king of combat, while having a jedi without force powers but lightsaber skills would be cool.






*We might be allowed non core books for prestige classes

[RandomLunatic]

Even with the Force, unarmed combat isn't viable in Core-only. The only support you have is the three MA feats and Combat Gloves, which taken together give you 1d10+1+STR damage. With an 18 STR, that's an average of 10.5 damage per hit, which is the same average as any non-Jedi schmuck with a blaster pistol with no feats or talents invested at all. Heck, the same character would do more damage by swinging a simple mace two-handed (12.5 damage per hit), again with no investment of build resources. Anything you do in core with unarmed will be done better by spending a feat on either WP (Advanced Melee Weapons) or WP (Lightsaber) instead of Martial Arts.

To make unarmed viable, you need splats. The two biggest ones for unarmed combat are the Legacy of the Force era CG and Galaxy of War.

[Sparx MacGyver]

Decided to throw something a bit different at my players. Browsing Wookieepedia, I found the "Force Vampire". Seemed interesting, so I decided to see if we could replicate him using the Vampire template from Pathfinder, with a few alterations.
Force Vampire
Force Vampire CL 10
Medium Human Male Jedi 7/Jedi Knight 1
Force 5; Dark Side 12
Init +10; Senses Perception +10, Dark Vision
Languages Basic, Bocce, Sy Bysti
Defenses Ref 29 (flat-footed 26), Fort 21, Will 21; Block, Deflect
Hp 99; Threshold 21; DR 10
Speed 6 squares
Melee lightsaber +14 (2d8+11) or
Melee lightsaber +11/+11 (2d8+11) with Double Attack or
Melee slam +13 (1d4+10) or
Melee unarmed +13 (1d6+6) or
Ranged by weapon +9
Base Atk +8; Grp +10
Atk Options Double Attack (lightsabers)
Special Actions Redirect Shot
Special Qualities Fast Healing, Force Drain, Immunites
Force Powers Known (Use the Force +11): battle strike, Force slam, move object, cloak
Abilities Str 20, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 14
Talents Block, Deflect, Multiattack Proficiency (lightsabers), Redirect Shot, Weapon Specialization (lightsabers)
Feats Double Attack (lightsabers), Force Sensitivity, Force Training (3), Martial Arts I, Weapon Focus (lightsabers), Weapon Proficiency (lightsabers, simple weapons)
Skills Initiative +12, Jump +14, Perception +10, Stealth +15, Use the Force +11
Possessions Jedi robes, lightsaber (self-built)

And the template:
Template Adjustment: CL+3
Improved Reflexes: Reflex defense improves by +6.
Defensive Abilities: DR 10, in addition to all of the defensive abilities granted by the undead type.
Fast Healing: A vampire also gains fast healing 5.
Immunities: Immune to all Mind Affecting effects.
Melee: A vampire gains a slam attack if the base creature didn't have one. Damage for the slam depends on the vampire's size. Its slam also causes energy drain (see below).
Energy Drain A creature hit by a vampire's slam (or other natural weapon) goes -1 step down the condition track, and is persistant. This ability only triggers once per round, regardless of the number of attacks made. If a creature falls completely down the condition track from thsi attack, it’s connection to the force is Severed permanetly.
Ability Scores: Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4.
Skills: Vampires gain a +8 racial bonus on Perception and Stealth checks.

Thoughts and opinions? Game-wise, this guy is a nightmare. Just in simulations in various encounters, this guys is evil. Just hitting you, regardless of damage, hurts, and I can only imagine the removal of the Force to a Jedi player. He isn't meant to be nice, he's meant to represent the perversion of the Force as presented and to be a real challenge.

[Waar]

Force Vampire CL 10
Medium Human Male Jedi 7/Jedi Knight 1

And the template:
Template Adjustment: CL+3
Improved Reflexes: Reflex defense improves by +6.
Defensive Abilities: DR 10, in addition to all of the defensive abilities granted by the undead type.
Fast Healing: A vampire also gains fast healing 5.
Immunities: Immune to all Mind Affecting effects.
Melee: A vampire gains a slam attack if the base creature didn't have one. Damage for the slam depends on the vampire's size. Its slam also causes energy drain (see below).
Energy Drain A creature hit by a vampire's slam (or other natural weapon) goes -1 step down the condition track, and is persistant. This ability only triggers once per round, regardless of the number of attacks made. If a creature falls completely down the condition track from thsi attack, it’s connection to the force is Severed permanetly.
Ability Scores: Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4.
Skills: Vampires gain a +8 racial bonus on Perception and Stealth checks.

Thoughts and opinions? Game-wise, this guy is a nightmare. Just in simulations in various encounters, this guys is evil. Just hitting you, regardless of damage, hurts, and I can only imagine the removal of the Force to a Jedi player. He isn't meant to be nice, he's meant to represent the perversion of the Force as presented and to be a real challenge.

The ability scores alone are almost worth +2 CL,
So you want to give this thing +6 ref, +10 dr, fast healing 5, immunity to mind affecting, and +8 to perception and stealth for a bit more than +1 CL???? (I assume the CL 10 in the statblock was a typo)

No, this template gives way to much stuff way too cheap and is much stronger against non-force users (since they almost always target reflex defence) than it is against jedi (since their attacks usually target either fort or will or ignore the damage reduction).

The Cl change should be about +6 (but possibly with some form of bonus to will and fort), not +3.

[Sparx MacGyver]

No, it's actually CL8, and I bumped it by +CL3. Granted, even that may be too low. +6 may be more reasonable.

[Waar]

No, it's actually CL8, and I bumped it by +CL3. Granted, even that may be too low. +6 may be more reasonable.

Um a heroic level 8 character is normally CL8, so how did you get the CL10 in the statblock?

I think the problem is that CL in saga (CL X ~ Heroic level X character) isn't the same as the equivalent in d&d or pathfinder so while you might be able to convert a template,it affects CL differently.

[Mando Knight]

Straight up +10 DR is insane compared to the usual Vampire bit, where it's actually really easily overcome at appropriate encounters (DR x/magic might as well be DR 0 for a high-level creature like a vampire), plus normal vampires only get Energy Resistance against Cold and Electricity, whereas they'd be vulnerable to the usual Star Wars affair of shooting blasts of plasma everywhere. Halve the natural armor bonus or increase the CL adjustment to +6: CL is roughly equal to Heroic Level, and Reflex is also generally linear to that (and it must be, as there's little in the way of extra attack bonuses and only two full-BAB base classes). An extra +6 beyond the Dexterity adjustment and not conflicting with other modifiers is absurd at CL +2. A built-in auto-CT-kill effect, especially a persistent one, is also extremely powerful and should never be underestimated. Finally, stats are much lower in Saga than in high-level D&D, as there are very few items that increase raw stats, so the stat adjustment is also far more impactful than usual.

I would not use a normal fantasy vampire template for the Force Vampire, either, just like you shouldn't use the normal vampire template to represent a jiangshi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiangshi) (Chinese vampire).

Instead, I'd build the creature from the ground up focusing on Force Points. Make the unarmed attack drain Force Points first (probably via a secondary attack vs Will or Fortitude), then only deal CT damage when the target runs out, and don't make the CT damage persistent. Only sever the Force when the target dies (dropping to the bottom of the Condition Track is completely different), as doing so is so severe it can be a campaign-ender (no Force connection means no Force Points, ever, and you need those to fight Heroic opponents). Then, allow the Vampire to use a wide variety of extra powers by burning through its Force Points, basically just by giving it appropriate Force Powers and talents then allowing it to use more than one Force Point per round.

[Sparx MacGyver]

Um a heroic level 8 character is normally CL8, so how did you get the CL10 in the statblock?

I think the problem is that CL in saga (CL X ~ Heroic level X character) isn't the same as the equivalent in d&d or pathfinder so while you might be able to convert a template,it affects CL differently.

Typo. Supposed to be 11. I'll fix it.



Thank you for the feedback. I'll work on it.

[Smorgonoffz]

it's me again,after having read the responses to my previous questioni concede that an unarmed fighter using core only isn't feasible.

Has anyone any idea on core only builds(not for races):

Some examples:

-Pilot
-jawa Mechanic
-jawa jedi
-space hamster scout
-wookie scout
etc

[Nerd-o-rama]

1) Jedi, laser-sword or Force-wizardry focused, can be very good Core only, lacking mostly niche abilities (and some of the better Force Techniques, and Force Regimens which get around some of their Talent Taxes).

2) A buffer build based on Noble can be very powerful (especially if you consider "wads of cash" a buff).

3) Any kind of ranged build can be done well, although More Dakka-types are vastly enhanced by Clone Wars Campaign Guide and Legacy Era Campaign Guide, and everyone gets some better options out of Galaxy at War.

4) An Advanced Melee Weapon melee build works well too, at least if you have no objections to using a Vibro-Ax rather than something cooler-looking. It's vastly improved with talents and prestige classes from the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide, though.

5) Tanking is easily doable with Core only, though it does get much easier with a smattering of splatbooks, namely Scum & Villainy (to upgrade your armor), Clone Wars Campaign Guide (to stop Jedi from screwing you over), and Force Unleashed Campaign Guide (to give you some better taunts and debuffs)

6) And of course, the aim/ambush-based "Condition Track Killer" only needs Core stuff, although it can be helped by Galaxy At War, Scum & Villainy, and a certain obscure Prestige Class tucked away in Threats of the Galaxy.

Really, there's only a few build ideas that need supplements:

1) A Martial Artist really needs Galaxy at War to fight at full effectiveness.

2) A pilot's going to have way, way more options if you use Starships of the Galaxy, obviously.

3) A dedicated mechanic should really be using stuff from Starships of the Galaxy (or the web supplement that includes Tech Specialist, at least) and Scum and Villainy. I am also a fan of the Build Object rules from Force Unleashed Campaign Guide and the Scavenger feat to go with them. Supplemental Prestige Classes in Force Unleashed and Rebellion Era also give them more options at high levels.

4) Non-Force-based debuffing/crowd control is vastly enhanced by Galaxy of Intrigue and Unknown Regions.


And of course, every single book except Rebellion Era has at least one neat Species to play with.

Basically, everything gets enhanced by splats (Jedi less than others, in my opinion, even if they do have a dedicated book), but only a few things "require" them to be effective.

[Smorgonoffz]

2) A buffer build based on Noble can be very powerful (especially if you consider "wads of cash" a buff). eads of cash aren't a Buff they're THE BUFF.

Anyway a jawa scout/noble with focus in mechanics and hacking( both literal and otherwise) seems fun.

[Nerd-o-rama]

See, you're not really getting the most out of your talents that way, especially not Core Only. Scoundrel has a ton of good computer-related talents in the Slicer tree, and Scout and Noble don't have anything related to that. Scout does have some alright mechanics-related talents under Fringer, though, if mostly in splatbooks again.

The way I look at it is that between class lists and Talents, Scoundrels are your best bet for "Technical" skills (with social or stealth as a secondary), scouts are your best bet for "Physical" skills (with technical as a secondary), and Nobles are your best bet for "Social" and Knowledge skills, as well as having a broad enough base to cover other niches like Treat Injury or Pilot if need be. Scoundrels and Scouts are also good with Stealth in different ways, and Scoundrels get talents that let them screw around with any type of skill in the Fortune tree.

tl;dr for a Jawa mechanoslicer I'd go Scoundrel or Scoundrel/Scout.

[Sparx MacGyver]

If you're into the buffer/tech side, go noble with a dip into scout. Basically picking up all your buffs from Noble and then Scout For Evasion and the Mechanics skill*. Then Swing over to Rebellion and take Improviser as your prestige class, and maybe mix it up a bit with Saboteur from Force Unleashed. It's not a core only build, but it's fun.

Otherwise I'd say just go Scoundrel, with maybe a few levels in Noble to pick up a few buffs/money. Or, as suggested, Scout/Scoundrel to maximize the idea you want.

*Scoundrel works well too, if you're mostly using it to gain Mechanics. Personally, I went with Scout for Evasion as my GM at that time was throwing area attacks at us non-stop. Almost every battle had them, and that talent was worth it's weight in gold. Freaking flamethrowers.

I've got a request:
A Codru-ji dual wielding lightsaber Jedi. Not a force wizard, mostly combat focused. I was given the array of 18, 18, 16, 14, 14, 12. The idea, at least in my head, is that this guy doesn't have an amazing connection to the force, but to make up for it, he has incredible lightsaber skills.

[RandomLunatic]

eads of cash aren't a Buff they're THE BUFF.

Anyway a jawa scout/noble with focus in mechanics and hacking( both literal and otherwise) seems fun.I have to echo the above-Scout really has nothing for a gearhead in core. All I can find is Mechanics skill and the Jury-Rigger talent, which is really garbage. I've never seen anybody even use Jury-Rigging, and all it does is give you a re-roll, which will quickly become obsolete because it's a static DC 25, with a +5 bonus for using a toolkit. +10 for training and focus, and you're looking at 10s to pass before level and INT.


If you're into the buffer/tech side, go noble with a dip into scout. Basically picking up all your buffs from Noble and then Scout For Evasion and the Mechanics skill*. Then Swing over to Rebellion and take Improviser as your prestige class, and maybe mix it up a bit with Saboteur from Force Unleashed. It's not a core only build, but it's fun.

Otherwise I'd say just go Scoundrel, with maybe a few levels in Noble to pick up a few buffs/money. Or, as suggested, Scout/Scoundrel to maximize the idea you want.

*Scoundrel works well too, if you're mostly using it to gain Mechanics. Personally, I went with Scout for Evasion as my GM at that time was throwing area attacks at us non-stop. Almost every battle had them, and that talent was worth it's weight in gold. Freaking flamethrowers.

I've got a request:
A Codru-ji dual wielding lightsaber Jedi. Not a force wizard, mostly combat focused. I was given the array of 18, 18, 16, 14, 14, 12. The idea, at least in my head, is that this guy doesn't have an amazing connection to the force, but to make up for it, he has incredible lightsaber skills.Hmm. What level and sources are you working with?

The fundamental problem with full attack melee builds is you can't full attack and move. And with Withdraw being a move action, the only people that will stand there and let a four-armed Jedi whale on them with two lightsabers are the Darwin Award candidates and people who have a nastier full attack routine than you do.

There's several ways around it, trading off maturation time for effectiveness.

EDIT: How hung up are you dual-wielding? With four hands, you can mix and match the more exotic lightsaber types, which makes controlling fights so much easier. Like two-hand a great lightsaber for damage, then add either a lightwhip or dual-phase saber for reach and a crossguard saber or guard shoto for defense.

[Krazzman]

Hello fellow fans of the SWSE... I haven't posted/read in quite a time in this thread since we put SWSE on ice for the past few months... but I am back and ask for build help/advice.

Since we have some more free time on our hands my wife had the idea of letting us play a Solo Campaign in SWSE.
The Character Generation will be done via pointbuy for level 2 (maybe level 3 as starting level).
I have the Core Rulebook, Rebellion Era Campaign Setting and Galaxy at War as source material. The Force Unleashed Campaign Setting is an optional source where my wife has to look into it if she will allow it.

The current background is at the start of the clone wars a female jedi and a clone "deserted" together after falling in love resulting in the character.
IF I go Jedi I can only use Force powers that don't need too much finesse. (No Force Lightning or other stuff that doesn't come naturally). Surge, Force Push or Move Object are ok but Force Grip is a maybe and so on. I might go Warden in the Sky as I would have no Light sabre.

The concept I want to fulfill with him is Mercenery Bounty Hunter that has some connection to the force but not really trained in it. Or to say it in DnD terms: Skill Monkey that can handle himself well in fights with the skill in "Vibroweapon" or Unarmed Combat.
Maybe even going for a sorta Megaman arm Cannon.

But I don't even know where to start. My feeling says for the Unarmed Combat route going Scout/Jedi with Warden in the Sky/Soldier/X/Unarmed Prestige Class.

Can you help me get the build for the concept started?

Thanks in advance.

[Sparx MacGyver]

I have to echo the above-Scout really has nothing for a gearhead in core. All I can find is Mechanics skill and the Jury-Rigger talent, which is really garbage. I've never seen anybody even use Jury-Rigging, and all it does is give you a re-roll, which will quickly become obsolete because it's a static DC 25, with a +5 bonus for using a toolkit. +10 for training and focus, and you're looking at 10s to pass before level and INT.

Hmm. What level and sources are you working with?

The fundamental problem with full attack melee builds is you can't full attack and move. And with Withdraw being a move action, the only people that will stand there and let a four-armed Jedi whale on them with two lightsabers are the Darwin Award candidates and people who have a nastier full attack routine than you do.

There's several ways around it, trading off maturation time for effectiveness.

EDIT: How hung up are you dual-wielding? With four hands, you can mix and match the more exotic lightsaber types, which makes controlling fights so much easier. Like two-hand a great lightsaber for damage, then add either a lightwhip or dual-phase saber for reach and a crossguard saber or guard shoto for defense.

It's not set in stone, I just happened to really like the idea of it. I usually don't play the melee guy, mostly the tech and skill based guy in the background. And even more so, I never really go Jedi.

For the great lightsaber, if I two-hand it can I use feats/talents with it? Cause the entry says only large (or larger) creatures can.

Sorry, should have mentioned, it's level 10and all books are available.

[Waar]

Since we have some more free time on our hands my wife had the idea of letting us play a Solo Campaign in SWSE.
The Character Generation will be done via pointbuy for level 2 (maybe level 3 as starting level).
I have the Core Rulebook, Rebellion Era Campaign Setting and Galaxy at War as source material. The Force Unleashed Campaign Setting is an optional source where my wife has to look into it if she will allow it.

The current background is at the start of the clone wars a female jedi and a clone "deserted" together after falling in love resulting in the character.
IF I go Jedi I can only use Force powers that don't need too much finesse. (No Force Lightning or other stuff that doesn't come naturally). Surge, Force Push or Move Object are ok but Force Grip is a maybe and so on. I might go Warden in the Sky as I would have no Light sabre.

The concept I want to fulfill with him is Mercenery Bounty Hunter that has some connection to the force but not really trained in it. Or to say it in DnD terms: Skill Monkey that can handle himself well in fights with the skill in "Vibroweapon" or Unarmed Combat.
Maybe even going for a sorta Megaman arm Cannon.

But I don't even know where to start. My feeling says for the Unarmed Combat route going Scout/Jedi with Warden in the Sky/Soldier/X/Unarmed Prestige Class.

Can you help me get the build for the concept started?

Thanks in advance.

If you want to be able to do resonably well in unarmed combat at level 2 (given the circumstances) you will need the conviction force power (from the same book as the warden of the sky, Jedi academy training manual) and martial arts I, you can get both of these by starting in jedi or by starting with soldier 2. The hammerblow talent from the Legacy era campagin guide is a great choice for unarmed combatants, but it isn't required.

If the above make unarmed seem like to much work, pick weapon proficiency(advanced melee weapons) as the bonus feat for getting to second level in scout or soldier, and use a force pike or vibro-axe as your weapon of choice.(you could also use say battle strike to augment your attacks and it can also be used with ranged weapons if you ever need to use one)

Note that both of the above benefit greatly from high strength (14+) and if you want to have a lower strength for any reason, I would instead recommend using a blaster.

[Krazzman]

If you want to be able to do resonably well in unarmed combat at level 2 (given the circumstances) you will need the conviction force power (from the same book as the warden of the sky, Jedi academy training manual) and martial arts I, you can get both of these by starting in jedi or by starting with soldier 2. The hammerblow talent from the Legacy era campagin guide is a great choice for unarmed combatants, but it isn't required.

If the above make unarmed seem like to much work, pick weapon proficiency(advanced melee weapons) as the bonus feat for getting to second level in scout or soldier, and use a force pike or vibro-axe as your weapon of choice.(you could also use say battle strike to augment your attacks and it can also be used with ranged weapons if you ever need to use one)

Note that both of the above benefit greatly from high strength (14+) and if you want to have a lower strength for any reason, I would instead recommend using a blaster.

So basically for unarmed it "needs" some books that are out of my reach and force powers that might not be available.

The aim is for a long running build reaching "higher" levels. But being able to reasonably start out on level 2 with plans to level 3 and for at least (since my wife isn't set on either starting on level 2 or 3).

I tried searching for it but couldn't find a "Megaman/Rockman.exe" build that was posted in some thread here afaik but I don't know if I can pull it off or if it is even viable for what I should need for this campaign.

Is the Jedi talent: Block mandatory for melee characters? And would a Vibro Saber (or Rapier, dunno how it's called) be nearly as good as the Axe/Pick?

[RandomLunatic]

It's not set in stone, I just happened to really like the idea of it. I usually don't play the melee guy, mostly the tech and skill based guy in the background. And even more so, I never really go Jedi.

For the great lightsaber, if I two-hand it can I use feats/talents with it? Cause the entry says only large (or larger) creatures can.

Sorry, should have mentioned, it's level 10and all books are available.That bit means that only Large (or larger) creatures can use the great lightsaber with anything that only works with "light weapons or lightsabers", like the Flurry or Improved Rapid Strike feats.


So, after some consideration, I have two builds for ya.

Build 1: The Destroyer
This guy is geared more towards KoTOR era play, when Force-using opponents are commonplace.

Starting stats
STR 18
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 12
CHA 18

Level up points go to STR and CHA.

Jedi 7*/Melee Duelist 1/Jedi Knight 2

Talents: Dual Weapon Mastery I, Dual Weapon Mastery II, Force Sensitivity, Melee Defense, Overwhelming Assault, Rapid Strike, Skill Focus (Use the Force), Unstoppable Force, Weapon Focus (Lightsaber), WP (Lightsaber, Simple)

Talents: Block, Deflect, Dual Weapon Flourish I, Multiattack Proficiency (Lightsaber), 2 open Jedi Talents*

Force Technique: Force Point recovery (what else?)

Melee Self-built Lightsaber +17 (2d8+15) or
Melee Self-built Lightsaber +15 (3d8+15) with Rapid Strike or
Melee 2x Self-built Lightsaber +17/+17 (2d8+15)

This guy kills Sith. Or Jedi. Or Krath. Whatever. Dual Weapon Flourish lets you hit the guy twice as a standard action. This frees up two swifts to activate overwhelming assault before, which helps the first attack cut through the myriad defenses a force-using opponent can put up. The second won't get this benefit, but hopefully the first one softened him up. And it's not like it costs you attack bonus or anything. And Unstoppable Force gives you a better chance of resisting an enemy Force wizard's tricks.

*-You have a bit of flexibility one the last four levels of base class. You might want to multiclass to solider and pick up some of the brawler or weapon master talents.

Build 2: Crowd Control
Same stats as above.

This guy is more for a Clone Wars style campaign where force users are rare but crowds of enemies are common. It has a weaker full attack but is a very annoying lockdown build.

Jedi 6/Soldier 1/Melee Duelist 1/Jedi Knight 2

Talents: Combat Reflexes, Dual Weapon Mastery I, Force Sensitivity, Grapple Resistance, Melee Defense, Rapid Strike, Skill Focus (Use the Force), Trip, Weapon Focus (Lightsaber), WP (Lightsaber, Simple), any one soldier starting feat

Talents: Advantageous Opening, Block, Counterpunch, Deflect, Guardian Strike, Multiattack Proficiency (Lightsaber)

Force Technique: Force Point recovery (again, what else?)

Melee Self-built Lightwhip +17 (Pin or Trip, Grapple +20) or
Melee Self-built Lightsaber Pike +17 (2d8+15) or
Melee Self-built Dual-Phase Lightsaber +17 (2d8+10) or
Melee Self-built Lightsaber Pike +14/ (2d8+15) and Self-built Dual-Phase Lightsaber +14 (2d8+10)

This build is all about that two-square reach. All three of your weapons have it, and people getting near you are going to suffer for it. They can be handily held at bay by Tripping with whip, and then cut up while on the ground by your more damaging weapons. Training Acrobatics is very recommended for boosting your Reflex when you use Fight Defensively for Counterpunching people.

Hello fellow fans of the SWSE... I haven't posted/read in quite a time in this thread since we put SWSE on ice for the past few months... but I am back and ask for build help/advice.

Since we have some more free time on our hands my wife had the idea of letting us play a Solo Campaign in SWSE.
The Character Generation will be done via pointbuy for level 2 (maybe level 3 as starting level).
I have the Core Rulebook, Rebellion Era Campaign Setting and Galaxy at War as source material. The Force Unleashed Campaign Setting is an optional source where my wife has to look into it if she will allow it.

The current background is at the start of the clone wars a female jedi and a clone "deserted" together after falling in love resulting in the character.
IF I go Jedi I can only use Force powers that don't need too much finesse. (No Force Lightning or other stuff that doesn't come naturally). Surge, Force Push or Move Object are ok but Force Grip is a maybe and so on. I might go Warden in the Sky as I would have no Light sabre.

The concept I want to fulfill with him is Mercenery Bounty Hunter that has some connection to the force but not really trained in it. Or to say it in DnD terms: Skill Monkey that can handle himself well in fights with the skill in "Vibroweapon" or Unarmed Combat.
Maybe even going for a sorta Megaman arm Cannon.

But I don't even know where to start. My feeling says for the Unarmed Combat route going Scout/Jedi with Warden in the Sky/Soldier/X/Unarmed Prestige Class.

Can you help me get the build for the concept started?

Thanks in advance.Ouch, I tried making a Warden of the Sky once. I had 10 levels, a bonus feat, and all the splatbooks and it still just barely came out this side of OK. I'd strongly recommend using advanced melee. If not, I'll have to get back to you.

[Smorgonoffz]

Does force powers/talents that help to hide yourself from the force exist?, i'd like to know because me and some friends are going to partecipate ina campaign between episode 3 and 4.
It will be force users allowed but with the risk of being discovered, you can have a lightsabe but if the imperials see you with it...

[Sparx MacGyver]

That bit means that only Large (or larger) creatures can use the great lightsaber with anything that only works with "light weapons or lightsabers", like the Flurry or Improved Rapid Strike feats.


So, after some consideration, I have two builds for ya.

Build 1: The Destroyer
This guy is geared more towards KoTOR era play, when Force-using opponents are commonplace.

Starting stats
STR 18
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 12
CHA 18

Level up points go to STR and CHA.

Jedi 7*/Melee Duelist 1/Jedi Knight 2

Talents: Dual Weapon Mastery I, Dual Weapon Mastery II, Force Sensitivity, Melee Defense, Overwhelming Assault, Rapid Strike, Skill Focus (Use the Force), Unstoppable Force, Weapon Focus (Lightsaber), WP (Lightsaber, Simple)

Talents: Block, Deflect, Dual Weapon Flourish I, Multiattack Proficiency (Lightsaber), 2 open Jedi Talents*

Force Technique: Force Point recovery (what else?)

Melee Self-built Lightsaber +17 (2d8+15) or
Melee Self-built Lightsaber +15 (3d8+15) with Rapid Strike or
Melee 2x Self-built Lightsaber +17/+17 (2d8+15)

This guy kills Sith. Or Jedi. Or Krath. Whatever. Dual Weapon Flourish lets you hit the guy twice as a standard action. This frees up two swifts to activate overwhelming assault before, which helps the first attack cut through the myriad defenses a force-using opponent can put up. The second won't get this benefit, but hopefully the first one softened him up. And it's not like it costs you attack bonus or anything. And Unstoppable Force gives you a better chance of resisting an enemy Force wizard's tricks.

*-You have a bit of flexibility one the last four levels of base class. You might want to multiclass to solider and pick up some of the brawler or weapon master talents.

Build 2: Crowd Control
Same stats as above.

This guy is more for a Clone Wars style campaign where force users are rare but crowds of enemies are common. It has a weaker full attack but is a very annoying lockdown build.

Jedi 6/Soldier 1/Melee Duelist 1/Jedi Knight 2

Talents: Combat Reflexes, Dual Weapon Mastery I, Force Sensitivity, Grapple Resistance, Melee Defense, Rapid Strike, Skill Focus (Use the Force), Trip, Weapon Focus (Lightsaber), WP (Lightsaber, Simple), any one soldier starting feat

Talents: Advantageous Opening, Block, Counterpunch, Deflect, Guardian Strike, Multiattack Proficiency (Lightsaber)

Force Technique: Force Point recovery (again, what else?)

Melee Self-built Lightwhip +17 (Pin or Trip, Grapple +20) or
Melee Self-built Lightsaber Pike +17 (2d8+15) or
Melee Self-built Dual-Phase Lightsaber +17 (2d8+10) or
Melee Self-built Lightsaber Pike +14/ (2d8+15) and Self-built Dual-Phase Lightsaber +14 (2d8+10)

This build is all about that two-square reach. All three of your weapons have it, and people getting near you are going to suffer for it. They can be handily held at bay by Tripping with whip, and then cut up while on the ground by your more damaging weapons. Training Acrobatics is very recommended for boosting your Reflex when you use Fight Defensively for Counterpunching people.

Those builds are pretty cool. I think, assuming my GM follows her usual plan, I'll probably be using the first build. Thanks a lot!

[Nerd-o-rama]

Does force powers/talents that help to hide yourself from the force exist?, i'd like to know because me and some friends are going to partecipate ina campaign between episode 3 and 4.
It will be force users allowed but with the risk of being discovered, you can have a lightsabe but if the imperials see you with it...

Check out the Jedi Sentinel talents Clear Mind (for hiding from other Force Users) and Dampen Presence (for making witnesses forget your face). Former in the core book, and a prerequisite for the very nice Force Haze, latter in the Force Unleashed Campaign Guide. The Jensarai and Fallanasi Force Traditions also have interesting talents, but of course both of them are rare and insular.

Also I recommend investing in Pistol or Advanced Melee proficiency just to give yourself options.

[Jigawatts]

I have a character concept for an Old Republic campaign that is a non force using martial artist who fights well against force users/lightsaber wielders. Let me know what you think and if you suggest any tweaking anywhere. The Teras Kasi Unarmed Parry talent is houseruled to work without having to fight defensively, it basically works the same as Block, also the character would probably get some cortosis bracers around this time to make sense narratively to work against lightsabers (and not get my arm or hand chopped off).

Feats are unbolded, talents are bolded.

1 Human Scout 1: Martial Arts 1, Teras Kasi Training, Shake It Off, Evasion
2 Soldier 1: Melee Smash
3 Soldier 2: Rapid Strike, Melee Defense
4 Soldier 3: Stunning Strike
5 Soldier 4: Martial Arts 2
6 Soldier 5: Echani Training, Devastating Attack
7 Soldier 6: Martial Arts 3
8 Soldier 7: Penetrating Attack
9 Martial Arts Master 1: Triple Crit, Teras Kasi Basics
10 MAM 2:
11 MAM 3: Unarmed Parry
12 MAM 4: Overwhelming Attack
13 MAM 5: Echani Expertise
14 MAM 6:
15 MAM 7: Unstoppable Force, Punishing Strike
16 MAM 8:
17 MAM 9: Teras Kasi Mastery
18 MAM 10: Dual Weapon Mastery 1
19 Soldier 8: Dual Weapon Mastery 2
20 Soldier 9: Indomitable

The only thing about this character is that he doesnt really come into his own until level 9 when my unarmed damage jumps from 1d10 to 2d12 (or 3d12 with rapid strike), so going through those first 8 levels might be a little slow. Also I didnt know if I would be better served by trying to focus on multiple attacks, Kthri (instead of Echani), and TK Mastery (earlier), also whether I should go Punishing Strike, Unarmed Counterattack, or Ignore Damage Reduction. Anyway, thoughts and critiques are welcome.

[Krazzman]

After reading the Rebellion Era Cmapaign Guide I come to the conclusion that there is only equipment in it that could interest me. Maybe the Prestige Class "Improviser"... but I don't know how good it will be.

I am unsure about the whole Axe ordeal though. Could it be possible to go for Teräs Käsi (as the poster above illustrated it). Only thing missing for the Martial Arts Master would be the Threats of the Galaxy book (which we don't have...) to access the Master of Teräs Käsi talent tree.

[RandomLunatic]

I have a character concept for an Old Republic campaign that is a non force using martial artist who fights well against force users/lightsaber wielders. Let me know what you think and if you suggest any tweaking anywhere. The Teras Kasi Unarmed Parry talent is houseruled to work without having to fight defensively, it basically works the same as Block, also the character would probably get some cortosis bracers around this time to make sense narratively to work against lightsabers (and not get my arm or hand chopped off).

Feats are unbolded, talents are bolded.

1 Human Scout 1: Martial Arts 1, Teras Kasi Training, Shake It Off, Evasion
2 Soldier 1: Melee Smash
3 Soldier 2: Rapid Strike, Melee Defense
4 Soldier 3: Stunning Strike
5 Soldier 4: Martial Arts 2
6 Soldier 5: Echani Training, Devastating Attack
7 Soldier 6: Martial Arts 3
8 Soldier 7: Penetrating Attack
9 Martial Arts Master 1: Triple Crit, Teras Kasi Basics
10 MAM 2:
11 MAM 3: Unarmed Parry
12 MAM 4: Overwhelming Attack
13 MAM 5: Echani Expertise
14 MAM 6:
15 MAM 7: Unstoppable Force, Punishing Strike
16 MAM 8:
17 MAM 9: Teras Kasi Mastery
18 MAM 10: Dual Weapon Mastery 1
19 Soldier 8: Dual Weapon Mastery 2
20 Soldier 9: Indomitable

The only thing about this character is that he doesnt really come into his own until level 9 when my unarmed damage jumps from 1d10 to 2d12 (or 3d12 with rapid strike), so going through those first 8 levels might be a little slow. Also I didnt know if I would be better served by trying to focus on multiple attacks, Kthri (instead of Echani), and TK Mastery (earlier), also whether I should go Punishing Strike, Unarmed Counterattack, or Ignore Damage Reduction. Anyway, thoughts and critiques are welcome.Unarmed builds are slow to "mature", as it were, because of all the investment needed to make them work.

I'd suggest shuffling feats and talents a bit to front-load your damage a bit. Swap Teras Kasi and Echani training with each other so you get double STR from the start. You don't have the WF pre-req for Penetrating Attack, so trade Penetrating Attack for Hammerblow, and take that as your first Soldier talent. This boosts your attack very impressively, so you can liberally employ Rapid Strike. This should keep your damage from being total garbage, and you'll probably still have the best attack bonus in the party, so your total DPR should pretty good despite your damage per hit being not so hot. Hammerblow will also combo awesomely with Unarmed Parry once you get it.

I question the need for both Teras Kasi Training and Devastating attack-reducing the target's DT by 10 points seems unnecessary unless you plan on regularly picking fistfights with spaceships. I'd drop one of those.

On a melee-based Jedi killer build, the Staggering Strike feat (The Galaxy at War version, not the Scum & Villainy version) comes highly recommended, since a Force-sensitive's offense and defense are both heavily tied to skills. I'd take that instead of Triple Crit.

I would go for Unarmed Counterstrike before Punishing Strike. It will probably trigger more often, and won't violate Echani Training's one attack per turn clause. Normally I don't advise full attack melee builds, but you are going in so late it probably won't matter.


After reading the Rebellion Era Cmapaign Guide I come to the conclusion that there is only equipment in it that could interest me. Maybe the Prestige Class "Improviser"... but I don't know how good it will be.

I am unsure about the whole Axe ordeal though. Could it be possible to go for Teräs Käsi (as the poster above illustrated it). Only thing missing for the Martial Arts Master would be the Threats of the Galaxy book (which we don't have...) to access the Master of Teräs Käsi talent tree.See, my problem is when I make martial arts builds, three books almost always come up: Galaxy at War, Legacy of The Force CG, and Threats of the Galaxy. I could probably work around one of those missing, but I'm finding two to be an insurmountable obstacle. Especially with the added constraint that it has to be effective all the way from level 2.

[Sith_Happens]

reducing the target's DT by 10 points seems unnecessary unless you plan on regularly picking fistfights with spaceships.

*takes notes*

:smalltongue:

[Krazzman]

Unarmed builds are slow to "mature", as it were, because of all the investment needed to make them work.

I'd suggest shuffling feats and talents a bit to front-load your damage a bit. Swap Teras Kasi and Echani training with each other so you get double STR from the start. You don't have the WF pre-req for Penetrating Attack, so trade Penetrating Attack for Hammerblow, and take that as your first Soldier talent. This boosts your attack very impressively, so you can liberally employ Rapid Strike. This should keep your damage from being total garbage, and you'll probably still have the best attack bonus in the party, so your total DPR should pretty good despite your damage per hit being not so hot. Hammerblow will also combo awesomely with Unarmed Parry once you get it.

I question the need for both Teras Kasi Training and Devastating attack-reducing the target's DT by 10 points seems unnecessary unless you plan on regularly picking fistfights with spaceships. I'd drop one of those.

On a melee-based Jedi killer build, the Staggering Strike feat (The Galaxy at War version, not the Scum & Villainy version) comes highly recommended, since a Force-sensitive's offense and defense are both heavily tied to skills. I'd take that instead of Triple Crit.

I would go for Unarmed Counterstrike before Punishing Strike. It will probably trigger more often, and won't violate Echani Training's one attack per turn clause. Normally I don't advise full attack melee builds, but you are going in so late it probably won't matter.

See, my problem is when I make martial arts builds, three books almost always come up: Galaxy at War, Legacy of The Force CG, and Threats of the Galaxy. I could probably work around one of those missing, but I'm finding two to be an insurmountable obstacle. Especially with the added constraint that it has to be effective all the way from level 2.

Ok. Then as I thought giving up on Martial Arts is probably better in the long run.

Also the build doesn't need to be specialised and "super effective" all the way through. It should just be able to play as a "single player". Without a party. Maybe having a way of getting henchmen later on.

EDIT:

After a bit of looking into it.

I came up with this:
Human Scout / Soldier.
Feats: Shake it Off, Armor Prof (Light), Weapon Prof: (Simple, Pistol, Rifle), Force Sensitive (1), Weapon Prof (Advanced Weapons) (Human).
Talents: Evasion/Improved Stealth/Acute Senses (can't decide), Soldier or Force Talent?


OR! If my wife allows Jedi's start feat Lightsaber to be traded for Advanced Weaponry then I will go with Scout/Jedi and have a feat instead of Armor Prof, don't know if you can use Block without a Lightsaber though.

[Philistine]

After reading the Rebellion Era Cmapaign Guide I come to the conclusion that there is only equipment in it that could interest me. Maybe the Prestige Class "Improviser"... but I don't know how good it will be.

Backgrounds are very nice, when allowed.

[Krazzman]

Backgrounds are very nice, when allowed.

According to the book itself: isn't a destiny better?

Also I need help with equipment beyond Vibroaxe/Vibrosword and somesuch.

[Waar]

EDIT:

After a bit of looking into it.

I came up with this:
Human Scout / Soldier.
Feats: Shake it Off, Armor Prof (Light), Weapon Prof: (Simple, Pistol, Rifle), Force Sensitive (1), Weapon Prof (Advanced Weapons) (Human).
Talents: Evasion/Improved Stealth/Acute Senses (can't decide), Soldier or Force Talent?


OR! If my wife allows Jedi's start feat Lightsaber to be traded for Advanced Weaponry then I will go with Scout/Jedi and have a feat instead of Armor Prof, don't know if you can use Block without a Lightsaber though.

You could go scout 2 (if you want to start with force training (as the human feat) and pick Weapon Prof (Advanced Weapons) as the bonus feat), but the above also works. And no you can't use block or deflect unless you have a lightsaber (or a rare evil sith alchemical weapon, but I don't think that would be available).

Evasion/Improved Stealth/Acute Senses are all solid choices. However the available options among the soldier talents aren't that usefull unless you have more of them (armored defence and the improved version, melee smash and stunning strike). Force talents, you could go for say Force perception/pilot if you want more skills, or mayby DR 10 if you need more combat survivability (it is a very strong talent, but exercise caution since it might be too strong).

[Mando Knight]

According to the book itself: isn't a destiny better?

Also I need help with equipment beyond Vibroaxe/Vibrosword and somesuch.

Destinies are better when you fulfill them or cheese out DP use. Backgrounds are better for actually planning builds, since they aren't as subject to the whims of the GM.

[Nerd-o-rama]

They're also great for expanding class skill lists, like getting Use Computer on a Scout (for a do-everything pilot or a breaking and entering stealth specialist) or Acrobatics, Deception or Persuasion on a Soldier (without burning a talent on Commanding Presence in the latter case). It can really simplify multiclassing.

[Jigawatts]

Unarmed builds are slow to "mature", as it were, because of all the investment needed to make them work.

I'd suggest shuffling feats and talents a bit to front-load your damage a bit. Swap Teras Kasi and Echani training with each other so you get double STR from the start. You don't have the WF pre-req for Penetrating Attack, so trade Penetrating Attack for Hammerblow, and take that as your first Soldier talent. This boosts your attack very impressively, so you can liberally employ Rapid Strike. This should keep your damage from being total garbage, and you'll probably still have the best attack bonus in the party, so your total DPR should pretty good despite your damage per hit being not so hot. Hammerblow will also combo awesomely with Unarmed Parry once you get it.

I question the need for both Teras Kasi Training and Devastating attack-reducing the target's DT by 10 points seems unnecessary unless you plan on regularly picking fistfights with spaceships. I'd drop one of those.

On a melee-based Jedi killer build, the Staggering Strike feat (The Galaxy at War version, not the Scum & Villainy version) comes highly recommended, since a Force-sensitive's offense and defense are both heavily tied to skills. I'd take that instead of Triple Crit.

I would go for Unarmed Counterstrike before Punishing Strike. It will probably trigger more often, and won't violate Echani Training's one attack per turn clause. Normally I don't advise full attack melee builds, but you are going in so late it probably won't matter.
Excellent reply, I thank you sir, this was exactly the type of feedback I was looking for. Here is my updated build

1 Human Scout 1: Martial Arts 1, Echani Training, Shake It Off, Evasion
2 Soldier 1: Hammerblow
3 Soldier 2: Rapid Strike, Melee Defense
4 Soldier 3: Melee Smash
5 Soldier 4: Martial Arts 2
6 Soldier 5: Teras Kasi Training, Stunning Strike
7 Soldier 6: Martial Arts 3
8 Soldier 7: Indomitable
9 Martial Arts Master 1: Triple Crit, Teras Kasi Basics
10 MAM 2:
11 MAM 3: Unarmed Parry
12 MAM 4: Overwhelming Attack
13 MAM 5: Echani Expertise
14 MAM 6:
15 MAM 7: Unstoppable Force, Unarmed Coutnerstrike
16 MAM 8:
17 MAM 9: Ignore Damage Reduction
18 MAM 10:
19 Soldier 8:
20 Soldier 9: Indomitable

Gonna keep Triple Crit, I just like the thought of rolling 6d12 damage, plus it goes nicely with Echani Expertise. I dropped any multiattacks, but I do have to ask, you said you cant suggest full attack melee builds, but doesnt Teras Kasi Mastery negate any downside to that, or am I not seeing something. Also what do you suggest for level 18 and 19 feats.

[Nerd-o-rama]

If you take a Full Attack, you lose the benefit of Echani Training, basically. It might be worth it, but you also might have better things to do with your talents.

[Mando Knight]

They're also great for expanding class skill lists, like getting Use Computer on a Scout (for a do-everything pilot or a breaking and entering stealth specialist) or Acrobatics, Deception or Persuasion on a Soldier (without burning a talent on Commanding Presence in the latter case). It can really simplify multiclassing.

That's what I meant about being better for planning. Skill Training isn't a bad feat if you're going to use that skill a lot, but it's better still to not spend a feat on the skill at all if you don't have to.

[Krazzman]

That's what I meant about being better for planning. Skill Training isn't a bad feat if you're going to use that skill a lot, but it's better still to not spend a feat on the skill at all if you don't have to.

It might be better but my wife said that she has to look it up.

Currently this:
Human Scout 2.
Feats: Force Sensivity, Force Training (Getting Surge and maybe Battle Strike/Force Grip), Shake it off and Advanced Melee Weapon Prof.
Talents: Acute Senses (Probably, maybe a Force Talent to grab Piloting via UTF or Perception or evasion).

Equipment:
Vibro Sword, Camo Poncho/Allweather Cloak... dunno what else to get.

Stats:
Point buy but don't know on what to focus. I need at least 13 Con so I will probably make it a 14 (in DnD/PF it's my goto stat for Con).

[Jigawatts]

If you take a Full Attack, you lose the benefit of Echani Training, basically. It might be worth it, but you also might have better things to do with your talents.
I was indeed aware of that, if I were to focus on multiple attacks I would probably swap Echani for Kthri.

[Philistine]

According to the book itself: isn't a destiny better?

Also I need help with equipment beyond Vibroaxe/Vibrosword and somesuch.

The book is wrong in this case. Destiny Points have some (potentially) powerful effects but suffer from a rather narrow range of applications and extremely limited availability; the other bonuses, for advancing toward a character's Destiny or for fulfilling a Destiny, depend entirely on the individual GM's style. I personally have almost never seen any of those come up in actual play. Backgrounds, OTOH, add flexibility rather than power, but they're very helpful especially for patching the holes in the Class Skill lists - and not only are they always on, but chances are good that if you're using a Background to expand your Class Skill list, it's because you're going to be putting one (or more) of those added skills to good use. In general, I prefer Backgrounds.

For equipment, you might look into a Power Hammer (Force Unleashed CG p97); otherwise, the Vibroaxe is about as good as the Advanced Melee Weapons get.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Vibrolances (Galaxy at War) also deal the same amount of damage as a Vibro-axe if you'd rather use a spear than an axe. Your other option is of course as usual double-sided weapons that deal 2d6+2x Str/2d6+2x Str

Of course, if you were a Gamorrean, an Arg'garok is pretty nuts.

[Krazzman]

The book is wrong in this case. Destiny Points have some (potentially) powerful effects but suffer from a rather narrow range of applications and extremely limited availability; the other bonuses, for advancing toward a character's Destiny or for fulfilling a Destiny, depend entirely on the individual GM's style. I personally have almost never seen any of those come up in actual play. Backgrounds, OTOH, add flexibility rather than power, but they're very helpful especially for patching the holes in the Class Skill lists - and not only are they always on, but chances are good that if you're using a Background to expand your Class Skill list, it's because you're going to be putting one (or more) of those added skills to good use. In general, I prefer Backgrounds.

For equipment, you might look into a Power Hammer (Force Unleashed CG p97); otherwise, the Vibroaxe is about as good as the Advanced Melee Weapons get.


Vibrolances (Galaxy at War) also deal the same amount of damage as a Vibro-axe if you'd rather use a spear than an axe. Your other option is of course as usual double-sided weapons that deal 2d6+2x Str/2d6+2x Str

Of course, if you were a Gamorrean, an Arg'garok is pretty nuts.

The problem is: I don't know if the backgrounds will be allowed. Also I don't know how to put my stats down.
I should use the pointbuy method.

About equipment there is another problem. How much credits do I have on level 2 or 3?
What stuff should I get? Vibro Axe or Vibrosword or Double-Vibro Blade(sword because Licensed instead of restricted)? Which Rifle? What about Jetpack and other items?

The current plan is starting with Scout 2, then going for Scout 3 or Soldier 1.

[Nerd-o-rama]

The problem is: I don't know if the backgrounds will be allowed. Also I don't know how to put my stats down.
I should use the pointbuy method.

About equipment there is another problem. How much credits do I have on level 2 or 3?
What stuff should I get? Vibro Axe or Vibrosword or Double-Vibro Blade(sword because Licensed instead of restricted)? Which Rifle? What about Jetpack and other items?

The current plan is starting with Scout 2, then going for Scout 3 or Soldier 1.

The first two questions are great questions for your GM, especially since there's no official Wealth By Level in Saga like there is in D&D.

Vibro Axe vs. Double Vibroblade depends entirely on whether or not you're going to take Dual Weapon Mastery (and you'll be better off waiting until higher levels for that anyway, so I'd go Axe. Carry a backup weapon in case it gets confiscated, but most jurisdictions outside of wealthy neighborhoods and the Core don't care about Restricted weapons). My preferred Rifle is the Blaster Carbine or a variant on it, just because being able to snap off AoO's is more important than maximum range, usually.

Jetpacks are good if you can afford them, but they're bulky, the fuel cells get expensive, and they require pilot to much more than auto-clear certain jumps. Other than that, I almost always take a Utility Belt to cover the basics and then think of what else the character would have. If you train Mechanics, a Toolkit is great, and a Security Kit is even better. Scouts don't normally get Treat Injury or Use Computer, but if you do, Medpacs, a Medical Kit, and a Datapad are all somewhat necessary to use them.

[Krazzman]

The first two questions are great questions for your GM, especially since there's no official Wealth By Level in Saga like there is in D&D.

Vibro Axe vs. Double Vibroblade depends entirely on whether or not you're going to take Dual Weapon Mastery (and you'll be better off waiting until higher levels for that anyway, so I'd go Axe. Carry a backup weapon in case it gets confiscated, but most jurisdictions outside of wealthy neighborhoods and the Core don't care about Restricted weapons). My preferred Rifle is the Blaster Carbine or a variant on it, just because being able to snap off AoO's is more important than maximum range, usually.

Jetpacks are good if you can afford them, but they're bulky, the fuel cells get expensive, and they require pilot to much more than auto-clear certain jumps. Other than that, I almost always take a Utility Belt to cover the basics and then think of what else the character would have. If you train Mechanics, a Toolkit is great, and a Security Kit is even better. Scouts don't normally get Treat Injury or Use Computer, but if you do, Medpacs, a Medical Kit, and a Datapad are all somewhat necessary to use them.

My wife said that she has to look into it. IF I can use Backgrounds I think about either the Backgorund that gives me a Prosthetic and Treat Injury or the one that gives me use computer as these two are the most fitting ones.

Then it will most likely be the Axe. DWM needs Dexterity which would probably lead to focus on Str, Dex, Con, Cha and Int (need skillpoints since I will be running solo). I think the MAD ness is just not that good. Also a slight focus on Wis for more force powers...

[Blue Duke]

House Rule question for people: for a tradition like Nightsister is it reasonable to allow a player to get talents from the Night Sister tree if they do not take levels in Jedi but instead take levels in scout ? and would it be resonable to let my player that i am letting do that also trade Pistol and Rifle proficiency for another feat ? the Latter point is because i dont see Night Sisters with a lot of blasters.

[Mando Knight]

House Rule question for people: for a tradition like Nightsister is it reasonable to allow a player to get talents from the Night Sister tree if they do not take levels in Jedi but instead take levels in scout ? and would it be resonable to let my player that i am letting do that also trade Pistol and Rifle proficiency for another feat ? the Latter point is because i dont see Night Sisters with a lot of blasters.

You can always take Force talents regardless of your class, so long as you otherwise qualify for them (you'll always need Force Sensitivity, of course, but you'd also need to be either a member of the tradition or trained by such a member to take the talents from a Force Tradition tree), it's how you're expected to qualify for Force Adept. Sith Lord, Jedi Master, and Force Disciple explicitly call out the Force Talent trees as being available so as to remind the player that it's there... the Master PrCs are a little anemic in terms of available talent trees otherwise.

I would be very careful about replacing unused proficiencies with other feats. At best, I'd limit it to swapping out for feats that are on the class's Bonus Feat list, except for Skill Focus (which breaks the early game in half, particularly if it's a Force Mage like a Nightsister would tend to be).

[Blue Duke]

Basically she traded proficiency with pistols/rifles for Force sensitivity. two feats for one.

[Mando Knight]

I guess that would be fine... played intelligently, early-game Force Wizardry is strong enough that a 2-for-1 trade to get into it feels fair, but since it's at the cost of the character's non-Force combat potential (Simple weapons are bad outside of grenades, and those are too expensive for early characters), the first few levels may be a bit rough.

[Blue Duke]

i'm trying to work out a Bow for her, not that stupid 'blaster bow' that they use in TCW but a real bow...say blaster pistol range, 2d8 damage (1D less then a blaster carbine). i also want to let her have grenade arrows - drop the damage die by 1 on the grenades she uses and add a little to the credit cost for custom work maybe ?

[Sparx MacGyver]

i'm trying to work out a Bow for her, not that stupid 'blaster bow' that they use in TCW but a real bow...say blaster pistol range, 2d8 damage (1D less then a blaster carbine). i also want to let her have grenade arrows - drop the damage die by 1 on the grenades she uses and add a little to the credit cost for custom work maybe ?

There is a bow in the core book. Pg 127, and entry on pg 128. There's also a crossbow (UR pg 39) and a repeating crossbow (GaW pf 37).

As far as raising the damage, you'd be doing the equivalent of a standard blaster pistol's stun damage, 2d6. Plus, per the core book, you get to add strength to your damage rolls with a bow. Make it 250 or 300 credits, if you wanna raise it. Or treat it as an energy ball - 2d8 damage and only 20 credits, similar priced for arrows for the bow. Depends on how you want to flavor it.

Personally I kind of like the later, as it has a more diy feel to it, a low tech feel to match the bow.


Speaking of the Energy Ball, how would y'all stat the damage for the giant ones? You know, the ones that took out tanks and swaths of droids.

[Blue Duke]

i ddint even notice the bow in teh core book until you pointed it out to me - wow am i blind.

[Mando Knight]

Giving the bow pistol range is the same as just using the Simple Weapons range (20/40/60/80 squares) anyway (thrown weapons like grenades use a separate Thrown Weapon range group regardless of their proficiency).

However, one die less of damage for the bow vs a rifle is not within the design spec of the system. A 2d8 bow would deal as much damage as a slugthrower rifle (roughly the equivalent of an M16 given the magazine size and selective fire), and more damage if the bow adds the user's Strength. It would also deal as much damage as a vibrosword or lightsaber without the cost of proficiency or really much of any drawback at all (ranged attacks don't provoke attacks of opportunity in Saga). Moreover, a 3d8 weapon (a blaster carbine) is actually overkill for a level 1 character, since most minions at level 1 generally have 10 HP, which is within the average damage of a 3d6 weapon (10.5) and just above that of a straight-up 2d8 weapon (9).

The purpose of trading away those feats in favor of Force Sensitivity is the power tradeoff. Negating that trade with a custom weapon that in the early game is as good as a lightsaber (DR doesn't really show up until later, since you're dead on foot against a vehicle with or without a 'saber) without the other tradeoffs that Jedi are forced into for their weapon and Force Sensitivity (a smaller skill list and fewer skills known than even the Soldier, besides the lost feats) is unbalanced.

The bow in Core is a little weak, though, and is basically what D&D calls a "short bow"--it's a Medium weapon, so it's a small-ish bow for Humans and a big bow for Ewoks. A Large (by Saga's convention, a 2-handed weapon for Medium characters) 1d8 bow would work, with the option of converting grenades into arrows that give the bow the Inaccurate tag (can't fire at long range) due to the added weight. (These grenade-arrows make it like a cheaper grenade launcher, but with a relative major limitation in that a grenade launcher proper uses the relatively extremely long Heavy ranges rather than the shorter Simple ones) A more advanced design with pulleys and such would be more expensive, but could increase the damage to 1d10+Str or add the Accurate tag (no penalty at Short range).

[Sparx MacGyver]

It's an easily overlook-able item. After all, whats a bow and arrow set compared to the coolness of a lightsaber or blaster?

[Sith_Happens]

that stupid 'blaster bow' that they use in TCW

Are you talking about Wookie bowcasters or something else?

[Sparx MacGyver]

Are you talking about Wookie bowcasters or something else?

I think he's referring to the energy bow they used.

See here:
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110108085317/starwars/nl/images/f/f0/Naa_leth.jpg

[Blue Duke]

yea that thing...i love the bowcaster i do not love the 'Blaster bow' pictured above.

[Sith_Happens]

So my first thought was that the string and arrow are obviously plasma-coated like a bowcaster bolt or a lightwhip, but nope:


The bowstrings and arrows of the weapon were made of pure plasma

There's form over function and then there's that. Seriously, as soon as you're making your plasma anything functionally solid you might as well just use a blaster (or a lightsaber, these apparently being Nightsister weapons).:smallconfused:

[Nerd-o-rama]

I want to know what those gloves are made out of. And how you give a plasma stream tensile strength with which to snap the arrow forward when pulled back and released.

[Sith_Happens]

I want to know what those gloves are made out of.

I assume they're just regular gloves; if you look closely you'll see that the place she's holding the string is a metal connector piece as well as the generator for the arrow.


And how you give a plasma stream tensile strength with which to snap the arrow forward when pulled back and released.

The point I was just making is that the answer to that question is "Probably not by a method substantially different from how blasters and lightsabers work." However cool-looking the result, the idea behind this weapon just seems needlessly inefficient.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Blasters and lightsabers create a contained particle stream that you then smack into someone. They're not...how is...

Damn kids' cartoons.

[LibraryOgre]

I had a d6 game once that had some extensive notes on bowcasters and how they worked... and I actually had them be the basis for the Death Star "Superlaser"... instead of a regular blaster, it was a mass driver that used a blaster containment field to allow it to plow through the atmosphere without losing speed, then exploded.

[Mando Knight]

And how you give a plasma stream tensile strength with which to snap the arrow forward when pulled back and released.

How do you contain a plasma stream into a 1 meter beam with only one emitter? Realism with regards to how we understand physics is not one of Star Wars' strengths.

[Nerd-o-rama]

How do you contain a plasma stream into a 1 meter beam with only one emitter? Realism with regards to how we understand physics is not one of Star Wars' strengths.

Magnets, how do they w--okay yeah it's bull.

I can still accept a plasma stream going in a straight line/loop and being used as an incredibly energetic sharp object better than a moving plasma stream as part of a mechanism that does work, however simple.

[Blue Duke]

and this is why the nightsister character will be useing a normal bow.....or if she wants a slug thrower she can get proficiency for that later. (though i told her about light whips and she got a disturbing gleam in her eye...this from a woman who executed a gungan that surrendered in cold blood when i ran them through a dungeon run once....this is gonna be a fun game!)

Hey on the slug thrower route, any one have any idea if there are force powers or talents one could apply to make some kind of Gunslinger tradition that can like curve bullets and such ? its something i've always wanted to play.

[Mando Knight]

The Blazing Chain, Unknown Regions pages 32-33, has a Force Directed Shot talent that lets you bounce a bullet (or any other kind of ranged attack, actually) to select a nearby square as the origin square for your attack, so you can shoot around cover more easily. Other than that, Battle Strike (from Core) doesn't limit what kind of attack you can make with the power, so you can use that for extra accuracy and damage, and you can obviously just tack on Force stuff onto a standard Gunslinger core if you wish.

[Sith_Happens]

How do you contain a plasma stream into a 1 meter beam with only one emitter? Realism with regards to how we understand physics is not one of Star Wars' strengths.

Ayup. If we're going to accept that a contained plasma stream can have a large rotational momentum (part of the reason lightsabers are nigh-impossible for random schmos to use, don't know if it's made it into the new timeline yet though) I don't think it's that much farther out there to accept that it can at least simulate having tensile strength. Maybe say that it resists changes in density because [reasons].

[Nerd-o-rama]

Ayup. If we're going to accept that a contained plasma stream can have a large rotational momentum (part of the reason lightsabers are nigh-impossible for random schmos to use, don't know if it's made it into the new timeline yet though) I don't think it's that much farther out there to accept that it can at least simulate having tensile strength. Maybe say that it resists changes in density because [reasons].

Wasn't the issue that lightsabers have no rotational momentum, as in the blade is completely weightless and you're basically waving around a flashlight with an Instant Death Beam extending out a meter?

[Sith_Happens]

Wasn't the issue that lightsabers have no rotational momentum, as in the blade is completely weightless and you're basically waving around a flashlight with an Instant Death Beam extending out a meter?

The blade is weightless, yes, but someone at some point decided that it's also gyroscopic thereby compounding the problem (first you accidentally swing it too fast/hard because it's weightless, then you can't stop it in time to not lose your leg because suddenly it's like swinging a spinning bicycle wheel).

[Nerd-o-rama]

Magic, got it.

[Sith_Happens]

It's not just any magic, it's technobabble, the best kind of magic!:smallwink:

[LibraryOgre]

It's not just any magic, it's technobabble, the best kind of magic!:smallwink:

Magic with the Technobabble Descriptor is +10 to save vs. Dispel, but is liable to explode into sparks when jostled.

[Sparx MacGyver]

Couple of things I'd like help on.

One, energy balls are basically those b lue balls used by the gungans at the final ground battle of Episode I, right? I figure they are since there's a couple weapins for gungans that mention them. Assuming this is true, (there is no entry in the core book for them aside from being listed with the grenades), what damage would you give to the larger version that is seen taking down swaths of droids and the droid battle tank? Would something like 6d6x2 be too much or not enough?

Two, from my days as a Pathfinder/D&D3.5 GM I learned that special items, even if mundane, can be something the players dig and can even get attached to. I don't want to just give out another +1 to hit/damage. Currently my players on on a sidequest dealing with a request to clear out a temple for a local tribe. Being as they don't deal with credits, my players will receive some bows and arrows. I'm gonna take the basic bow from the core book and I'm not sure what kind of bonus to give it. It's going to be fluffed as ceremonial and very nicely decorated - something you can tell is important to this tribe, something they value greatly and would be willing to give in exchange for freeing their hallowed grounds of worship from the evil Sith who desecrate the Force site and corrupt the creatures that are there. Anyway, I was thinking of making them something like a +5 persuasion/Gather Info Check while having it in the presence of certain individuals. Basically some kind of bonus but not just straight a boost to combat damage.

[Beleriphon]

How do you contain a plasma stream into a 1 meter beam with only one emitter? Realism with regards to how we understand physics is not one of Star Wars' strengths.

Its because its not a plasma stream. Years ago I read a physics PhD's article that basically said lightsabres would have to be exotic matter with some kind of spin, and that the math played out that it would inherently keep its shape and be about a metre long blob of glowing matter that would slice through nearly anything and hum. Also because of the magnetic fields they project would also be able to block each other.


Couple of things I'd like help on.

One, energy balls are basically those b lue balls used by the gungans at the final ground battle of Episode I, right? I figure they are since there's a couple weapins for gungans that mention them. Assuming this is true, (there is no entry in the core book for them aside from being listed with the grenades), what damage would you give to the larger version that is seen taking down swaths of droids and the droid battle tank? Would something like 6d6x2 be too much or not enough?

Yes, the energy balls the gungun blue balls of doom. Yeah, that seems okay for damage. Its roughly comparable to most vehicle weapons.


Two, from my days as a Pathfinder/D&D3.5 GM I learned that special items, even if mundane, can be something the players dig and can even get attached to. I don't want to just give out another +1 to hit/damage. Currently my players on on a sidequest dealing with a request to clear out a temple for a local tribe. Being as they don't deal with credits, my players will receive some bows and arrows. I'm gonna take the basic bow from the core book and I'm not sure what kind of bonus to give it. It's going to be fluffed as ceremonial and very nicely decorated - something you can tell is important to this tribe, something they value greatly and would be willing to give in exchange for freeing their hallowed grounds of worship from the evil Sith who desecrate the Force site and corrupt the creatures that are there. Anyway, I was thinking of making them something like a +5 persuasion/Gather Info Check while having it in the presence of certain individuals. Basically some kind of bonus but not just straight a boost to combat damage.

I might go with something about Force Points usage, the bow string vibrate in the presence of the Darkside, or maybe a bonus to hit against the Darkside or some such thing.

[Sparx MacGyver]

I like it. Although one of my players is not a force sensitive. The party is made of up of two jedi and a smuggler that dual wields a blaster and a vibrosword. I'll need to come up with something for him.

[Blue Duke]

Have you considered a fancy Vibro blade with some weapon upgrades from scum and villainy for the smuggler ?

[Sith_Happens]

Its because its not a plasma stream. Years ago I read a physics PhD's article that basically said lightsabres would have to be exotic matter with some kind of spin, and that the math played out that it would inherently keep its shape and be about a metre long blob of glowing matter that would slice through nearly anything and hum. Also because of the magnetic fields they project would also be able to block each other.

1. Lightsaber blades are in fact, canonically, a two-way plasma stream contained by a magnetic "shell," because engineers in Star Wars are just that good with magnets.

2. Anything involving the words "exotic matter" is basically real-life technobabble.

[Gotham]

Speaking (4 pages ago) of tri-light scopes and love...

Is it possible to make a rifle shot at a distance of 120km using Saga rules?

If my math is right, that's 80,000 squares, isn't it? It's been a while since I checked my books (I came across this thread in preparation for a revamp of my Jedi Knight mega-adventure project), but is that kind of distance shooting even remotely feasible either in-system or in-setting?

The longest recorded sniper kill that was readily available (read: on Wikipedia) is ~2.5km, in 2009.

HK-47's Love Shot claims 48x that distance.

Now, obviously, plasma bolts don't have to worry about drag and wind (right?) and the various ballistic concerns of slugthrowers, but even so, is it possible to make a shot like that?

[Mando Knight]

Not within Saga's rules (Long range for a rifle is ~450 meters and hand-held Heavy weapons have a range of ~750 meters), and it's not even generally probable on a planetary surface, either... on an Earth-sized planet, the curvature means that you lose around a kilometer of height across a 120km shot, so you'd basically need to be on a mountain overlooking a massive desert plain in order to see the target... in a populated city-world, you can just forget it. And then there's the question of how much does the energy from the weapon dissipate through the air.

Of course, the long range for a rifle is also assuming you're simply taking the shot. Spending additional time with a spotter and calculating the variances to get a precision shot is outside the general rules of the game, but could be used to permit a shot outside the normal range of a weapon.

[LibraryOgre]

IOW, that's less sniping and more artillery fire.

[Sith_Happens]

on an Earth-sized planet, the curvature means that you lose around a kilometer of height across a 120km shot, so you'd basically need to be on a mountain overlooking a massive desert plain in order to see the target... in a populated city-world, you can just forget it.

Huh, I totally forgot about that being a thing you need to consider. In fact, I just double-checked and the distance to Earth's horizon at sea level is about 4.7 km. So yeah, you need to have a heck of a tall sniper perch before a 120 km sight-line even exists.:smalleek:

[Waar]

IOW, that's less sniping and more artillery fire.
Or even (very low) orbital bombardment. :smallwink:

[Gotham]

Wow, now I'm concerned from a non-mechanics standpoint.


How the heck would a shot like that even occur?

[LibraryOgre]

Huh, I totally forgot about that being a thing you need to consider. In fact, I just double-checked and the distance to Earth's horizon at sea level is about 4.7 km. So yeah, you need to have a heck of a tall sniper perch before a 120 km sight-line even exists.:smalleek:

That's why we have jetpacks, silly! :smallbiggrin:

[Sith_Happens]

Wow, now I'm concerned from a non-mechanics standpoint.

How the heck would a shot like that even occur?

By being an assassin droid on a quest to find love, I thought we went over that part already.:smalltongue:

[EasterlyOcean]

Hey, complete Segway, are multiple armed droid characters allowed and what are their mechanics? Forgive me if this has already been answered, if so, point me in the right direction

[Mando Knight]

"A droid can have any number of appendages, but this does not increase the number of actions or attacks the droid can make in a round." (Core, p. 190)

[Gotham]

Adding on to that, I don't think it's RAW, but looking at the Codru-Ji, who have 4 arms, if I were the GM and a player wanted four arms, I'd use the Codru-ji ability as my guideline: no extra attacks, but can wield two two-handed weapons.

Speaking of Snipers, I just saw the Long Range Spotter use of Perception. That'd be a fun two-person team. The spotter and the sniper, the face and the muscle, etc.

[EasterlyOcean]

Adding on to that, I don't think it's RAW, but looking at the Codru-Ji, who have 4 arms, if I were the GM and a player wanted four arms, I'd use the Codru-ji ability as my guideline: no extra attacks, but can wield two two-handed weapons.

Speaking of Snipers, I just saw the Long Range Spotter use of Perception. That'd be a fun two-person team. The spotter and the sniper, the face and the muscle, etc.

Thanks, that was the information I was more interested in. Kudos to all

[Alejandro]

That's why we have jetpacks, silly! :smallbiggrin:

What if you set up some bizarre combo with those blaster sniping shot bouncing crystals? (I don't remember their exact name.)

Like, firing at one that's held way up in the air by a droid, then back down at your target? :D

[LibraryOgre]

What if you set up some bizarre combo with those blaster sniping shot bouncing crystals? (I don't remember their exact name.)

Like, firing at one that's held way up in the air by a droid, then back down at your target? :D

You wouldn't want all that to-hit bonus to go to waste, would you?

[Scowling Dragon]

I need help. Im GMing a Game, and my players had found a way to essentially get a large ship and a large amount of cash (Through being unethical bastards). I don't like to say "NO" just because the system can't handle it.

But point is the System cannot handle it because of a few things:

A: Installing Modifications. In a story where time is of the essence I like the idea of modifications requiring time. However the cost of installing modifications by default is ridiculous! And unfinished. There are prices for mechanics/ hour. But not the price of mechanic per day. But even lets say the workday is 10 hours a day for simplicity sake.

Thats still 2,000 per mechanic, per day of the installation. That quickly becomes many times the base cost of the part to be even installed!

B: Crewing ships. I found it a taxing exercise to develop and make personalities for 8 NPCs out of the blue (We check for survivors!). Im not GOING to develop around 50+ NPCs, but I need a decent system for pay VS Quality of the Crew person

C: Aid another makes the point of getting more skilled people very wobbly. Why hire a better mechanic, when I can just hire two bad ones at half the cost? Same goes for hiring better quality crew. There seems to be no good line or rule for the hiring of better crew VS worse crew when it comes to ships that the players are actually commanding.

D: Droids. Or in particular the PK Droid. Without solid definitions of what each individual droid can do (As well as maintenance cost and the like) and , the temptation to just buy a PK droid which only costs a 1,000 credits and just have a pilot, a mechanic and whatever else forever in a quick package for only 1000 credits as aposed to hiring and maintaining crew.


Now these all can be solved with houserules of some sort, but I want to make something stable to be of use for future encounters and scenarios to come.

Like even if I just slap the PK droid down and say it can't instal ship parts. Well what can it do then? Which things can it repair and which things can it not? And what about other droids? Would the ARK droid work? Exetera.

[Mando Knight]

A: Installing Modifications. In a story where time is of the essence I like the idea of modifications requiring time. However the cost of installing modifications by default is ridiculous! And unfinished. There are prices for mechanics/ hour. But not the price of mechanic per day. But even lets say the workday is 10 hours a day for simplicity sake.

Thats still 2,000 per mechanic, per day of the installation. That quickly becomes many times the base cost of the part to be even installed!
This is intended. Ever taken your car to the shop? Skilled labor is expensive.

B: Crewing ships. I found it a taxing exercise to develop and make personalities for 8 NPCs out of the blue (We check for survivors!). Im not GOING to develop around 50+ NPCs, but I need a decent system for pay VS Quality of the Crew person
Until you have a Lower Decks episode, all you need are the important guys: the chiefs on each shift in the duty roster, etc. The rest are grunts, and don't need details until it's necessary to get them. Scotty can work the transporter just as well as he can run Engineering, after all.

C: Aid another makes the point of getting more skilled people very wobbly. Why hire a better mechanic, when I can just hire two bad ones at half the cost? Same goes for hiring better quality crew. There seems to be no good line or rule for the hiring of better crew VS worse crew when it comes to ships that the players are actually commanding.
There's limitations on how many times you can apply Aid Another, though some of them are left entirely up to the GM. Only the Co-Pilot can Aid a Piloting check, and only Gunners, the Commander, and the Sensor Operator can Aid an Attack check (Core p. 170). The maximum work force for installing starship upgrades is 10x the minimum work force (SSotG p. 39), and the work force doesn't seem to apply an Aid Another bonus since the DC doesn't scale by ship size. A fast houserule stating that Aid Another for installing upgrades treats the minimum work force as a single unit, and a unit of workers can work toward either Aiding the check or speeding up the installation might be a fairly well-balanced rule.

D: Droids. Or in particular the PK Droid. Without solid definitions of what each individual droid can do (As well as maintenance cost and the like) and , the temptation to just buy a PK droid which only costs a 1,000 credits and just have a pilot, a mechanic and whatever else forever in a quick package for only 1000 credits as aposed to hiring and maintaining crew.
Cheap droids like the PKs often don't have heuristics packages (limiting their versatility if they aren't supervised), and could be more vulnerable to subversion than an organic crew. They also can't heal without being repaired.

[Scowling Dragon]

Well who cares about healing if they don't get into combat, and subversion submersion seems to have no mechanical difference.

Like again. Why not buy 10 PK droids for the cost that a SINGULAR use of a mechanic gives you, instead usable multiple times forever.

My point is its the winning strategy. And assuming they also just have a R2 Droid for supervision (Which they do):

It pretty much means that they are set forever.

And I repeat: I need a good skill VS Cost thing. And a reason to hire more skilled crew even if its more expensive.

[Jayngfet]

Saga player for the above game here.

The PK droids are being supervised by an NPC R2 unit. They're only really meant to get maintenance out of the way so player characters don't have to worry about it, or else cut down on ship installation time any time we need to slap on a new part. I wouldn't have bought so many of them(four) if I didn't need to basically completely overhaul a large ship as rapidly as possible. Because the time it takes to actually install new turbolasers, hyperdrives, ect, on a ship is ridiculous and I can't afford to just sit around in a starport for like three months.

Which is the real crux of the problem. The cost for hiring out a single mechanic per hour is basically the same as what an adventuring party is expected to make for like, a singular encounter. Even with line of credit a noble can only really afford like, one days mechanics at first level and maybe three by second. I may have a lot of ill-gotten gains now(and I mean REALLY ill gotten. The guy who skipped that session was both amazed we managed to amass one million credits that fast, and horrified at what we did to get it.), but sinking it back into the aforementioned overhaul will take up at least a solid third of that, and if you have a citadel cruiser you're obviously going to want quality fighters to dock to it, so that's half of it gone right there at bare minimum).

Since things quickly spiraled out of control from a few dudes on an old freighter to talks about fleet vs fleet battles or putting down money for entire squadrons of ships, I expect that entire million to be gone inside of like, a month. Maybe two.

Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to go pull my hair out at how I'm supposed to take a bunch of cheap PK's and second hand ships and take on a super star destroyer backed up by an ungodly set of defenses.

[kreenlover]

Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to go pull my hair out at how I'm supposed to take a bunch of cheap PK's and second hand ships and take on a super star destroyer backed up by an ungodly set of defenses.

Remember what Arvel Crynyd did in Episode VI?
That. Do that.
All you need is exactly one A-Wing, enough money to install a cloaking device on it, and a foolhardy pilot.
Done and done.

[Krazzman]

@topic:
Ill gotten gains tend to produce quite some repercussions.
Sometimes a rules call is necessary for corner cases as yours. Maybe someone sells them faulty droids or they have some rebelling crewmembers or similar.

@solo campaigns
My personal problem is that the solo campaign still hasn't started.
The build is now for level 3.
human scout2/soldier 1.
feats force sensitivity, force training (surge battles trike and force grip) advanced melee prof and light armor prof. Still got one open (the one gained at level 3).
Talents acute senses and force pilot.
stats:
Str 18 dex 14 con 16 int 16 wis 14 ca 16 (out solo campaign array)
Equipment isn't really done yet as I don't know what weapon and armor I really want. Can't decide between vibro axe or sword or if armor or not. Can't afford any sort of ship currently.

[Scowling Dragon]

Well so far what I got was a small maintenance fee for Droids, combined with the fact that ones with basic processors will be needing support of smarter beings on a 1/4 basis. In addition Dumb droids can't install modifications that are nonstandard.

And Mechanics costs are reduced by a factor of 10.

All of this makes droid crews a longerm investment as apposed to a instantly better option.

[Jayngfet]

Question, are there any options for increasing a starfighters speed, outside of just tech specialist stuff?

It looks like I'm about to get into some sort of race and my speed is about 8 squares. I don't have the emplacement points to cram maneuvering jets onto the rust bucket, which is going to be another issue.

[Mando Knight]

Question, are there any options for increasing a starfighters speed, outside of just tech specialist stuff?

It looks like I'm about to get into some sort of race and my speed is about 8 squares. I don't have the emplacement points to cram maneuvering jets onto the rust bucket, which is going to be another issue.

8 squares on a Starfighter is top grade... the only way to get to 9 base speed is Superior Tech (Vehicles) on a 7-square fighter, and the only way to beat that is to use Tech Specialist/Superior Tech on the #1 outlier starfighter in the game, the TIE Defender and its 8-square move speed (both will get you to 10 squares if the GM consistently rounds down as per the usual WotC math).

You can push starfighters beyond this, however, by getting your Pilot modifier really high: it's a DC 25 Pilot check to improve your speed by +1 square for that turn, and you get an additional +1 square of movement by every 5 points you beat that DC. You can make the Improve Speed check either as a swift action while doing other things like shooting, or if you're only moving in a straight line it's a free action as part of All-Out Movement. A SLAM system is 2 emplacement points and boosts the Improve Speed check by +5, or +10 if you're using All-Out Movement.

If you're up against a TIE Defender with a SLAM and an Ace pilot... well, I'm sorry, but the game was rigged from the start.

[Jayngfet]

If you're up against a TIE Defender with a SLAM and an Ace pilot... well, I'm sorry, but the game was rigged from the start.

Well, given the GM is reading this thread now I probably wasn't before, but probably am now.

But that's what Destiny points are for I guess. Too bad I only have one. Eh, force points'll probably cover it.

[Alejandro]

Saga player for the above game here.

The PK droids are being supervised by an NPC R2 unit. They're only really meant to get maintenance out of the way so player characters don't have to worry about it, or else cut down on ship installation time any time we need to slap on a new part. I wouldn't have bought so many of them(four) if I didn't need to basically completely overhaul a large ship as rapidly as possible. Because the time it takes to actually install new turbolasers, hyperdrives, ect, on a ship is ridiculous and I can't afford to just sit around in a starport for like three months.

Which is the real crux of the problem. The cost for hiring out a single mechanic per hour is basically the same as what an adventuring party is expected to make for like, a singular encounter. Even with line of credit a noble can only really afford like, one days mechanics at first level and maybe three by second. I may have a lot of ill-gotten gains now(and I mean REALLY ill gotten. The guy who skipped that session was both amazed we managed to amass one million credits that fast, and horrified at what we did to get it.), but sinking it back into the aforementioned overhaul will take up at least a solid third of that, and if you have a citadel cruiser you're obviously going to want quality fighters to dock to it, so that's half of it gone right there at bare minimum).

Since things quickly spiraled out of control from a few dudes on an old freighter to talks about fleet vs fleet battles or putting down money for entire squadrons of ships, I expect that entire million to be gone inside of like, a month. Maybe two.

Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to go pull my hair out at how I'm supposed to take a bunch of cheap PK's and second hand ships and take on a super star destroyer backed up by an ungodly set of defenses.

So were Dark Side Points earned, if it was that horrific?

Why invest a million credits into a starship/crew? Unless you really need them for some reason, of course. With that much, you could own eight decent light freighters, hire pilots to operate them in exchange for a cut, and have a whole small trading coster going. :)

[LibraryOgre]

I'd simply point out that a lot of NPCs can be replaced with droids. You might still want humans for some of the slots (weapons, for example), but you can probably slot a bunch of R2 units in shields and engineering, and then hire someone with great computer skills to be your Para Ventura. (http://ovalkwiki.com/Lieutenant+Para+Ventura)

[Scowling Dragon]

So were Dark Side Points earned, if it was that horrific?

Why invest a million credits into a starship/crew? Unless you really need them for some reason, of course. With that much, you could own eight decent light freighters, hire pilots to operate them in exchange for a cut, and have a whole small trading coster going. :)

He sold a array of Attack fighters to a clearly insane and unstable, Cyborg Superiority madman, who when asked questions, wouldn't reply and just added on another 100,000 in cash to the buying price.

The guy proceeded to have him and his crew go on a suicide bombing run over a hospital and school.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

...
Yes.
Dark Side Points.

[Alejandro]

...
Yes.
Dark Side Points.

Possibly enough DSPs to immediately make the PCs responsible NPCs.

[Krazzman]

I've got 3 questions:

1) Is there a statted out "Standard space ship"? Just something like a space RV. Just something with a small storage room, cockpit for 1 person (or 2 if a droid is allowed to do this), a kitchen and a sleeping room/cot.

2) Where can I find stuff about Tech specialist, since I can't seem to find anything in the books we own (Core, Jedi Acadamy, Force Unleashed, Rebellion Era, Clone Wars, Droids and galaxy at war).

3) Which of these feats are "better" for damage (or Survival) in a solo campaign? Rapid Strike, Power Attack, one of the Second Wind feats or Skill focus in anything (except UtF [will not take it yet, maybe at level 6).

Thanks in advance.

[Mando Knight]

1) Is there a statted out "Standard space ship"? Just something like a space RV. Just something with a small storage room, cockpit for 1 person (or 2 if a droid is allowed to do this), a kitchen and a sleeping room/cot.
That's a light freighter. YT-1300, Core p. 182. Alternate light freighters are available in Starships of the Galaxy and a few other books. Yes, it's roomier than a literal space RV would be, but light freighters like the YT-1300 fill the same role in Star Wars as a highly-customizable medium truck frame does in our world.

2) Where can I find stuff about Tech specialist, since I can't seem to find anything in the books we own (Core, Jedi Acadamy, Force Unleashed, Rebellion Era, Clone Wars, Droids and galaxy at war).
Starships. There's also a web supplement that detailed it, but it's in Starships. That and Scum & Villainy are basically must-haves for techie characters.

3) Which of these feats are "better" for damage (or Survival) in a solo campaign? Rapid Strike, Power Attack, one of the Second Wind feats or Skill focus in anything (except UtF [will not take it yet, maybe at level 6).
Rapid Strike is better than Power Attack. For a lightsaber, Rapid Strike is a fixed -2 attack for an average +4.5 damage even when one-handing your weapon, Power Attack needs you to two-hand to get a -2 attack for +4 damage, and attack bonuses are at a premium in Saga. Oh, and for whatever reason you can't Power Attack against a vehicle or object.

[Jayngfet]

Possibly enough DSPs to immediately make the PCs responsible NPCs.

Yeah, it was terrible.

However.

One Million Credits.

[Sith_Happens]

Yeah, it was terrible.

However.

One Million Credits.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/16/Drevil_million_dollars.jpg

[LibraryOgre]

I've got 3 questions:

1) Is there a statted out "Standard space ship"? Just something like a space RV. Just something with a small storage room, cockpit for 1 person (or 2 if a droid is allowed to do this), a kitchen and a sleeping room/cot.


I created something like that, but never posted it. A slow-haul freighter, designed to take standard shipping containers and move them at something like backup hyperdrive speeds. One or two people, maybe a couple droids, and a lot of holonovels.

[Mando Knight]

Oh, there's also the civilian version of the TIE Scout, which while unmarked for it, should maybe lose the insanely strong sensor package in return for its ridiculous (for a Gargantuan ship) cargo and passenger space.

[Jayngfet]

I created something like that, but never posted it. A slow-haul freighter, designed to take standard shipping containers and move them at something like backup hyperdrive speeds. One or two people, maybe a couple droids, and a lot of holonovels.

The thing about backup hyperdrives is they're so low even compared to normal emplacement points that a few jobs in there's no real excuse not to get like, at least a class 3.

[Krazzman]

That's a light freighter. YT-1300, Core p. 182. Alternate light freighters are available in Starships of the Galaxy and a few other books. Yes, it's roomier than a literal space RV would be, but light freighters like the YT-1300 fill the same role in Star Wars as a highly-customizable medium truck frame does in our world.

Will look it up tonight. But seems like I need 2 more books. Isn't like I ordered scum and villainy twice already... (once got force unleashed and second d time nothing...)


Starships. There's also a web supplement that detailed it, but it's in Starships. That and Scum & Villainy are basically must-haves for techie characters.

Rapid Strike is better than Power Attack. For a lightsaber, Rapid Strike is a fixed -2 attack for an average +4.5 damage even when one-handing your weapon, Power Attack needs you to two-hand to get a -2 attack for +4 damage, and attack bonuses are at a premium in Saga. Oh, and for whatever reason you can't Power Attack against a vehicle or object.

Either vibro axe or vibro blade. The character in question had no jedi training. Hence my thoughts about ditching force grip for battle strike or similar.

[Mando Knight]

Either vibro axe or vibro blade. The character in question had no jedi training. Hence my thoughts about ditching force grip for battle strike or similar.

Either way, you're going to be one-handing a vibro-blade for 2d6, which will net you +1 per each -1 you take for Power Attack while giving you average +3.5 for only -2 with Rapid Strike, or you'll be two-handing a vibro-axe for 2d10, which gives +2 damage per -1 attack with Power Attack or +5.5 average damage for -2 with Rapid Strike. It's pretty clear to me that Rapid Strike beats Power Attack in basically every applicable situation.

[Krazzman]

Either way, you're going to be one-handing a vibro-blade for 2d6, which will net you +1 per each -1 you take for Power Attack while giving you average +3.5 for only -2 with Rapid Strike, or you'll be two-handing a vibro-axe for 2d10, which gives +2 damage per -1 attack with Power Attack or +5.5 average damage for -2 with Rapid Strike. It's pretty clear to me that Rapid Strike beats Power Attack in basically every applicable situation.

Jeah but it's axe or sword. My phone just fixed vibro sword into blade. .. it''s still pretty clear.

[LibraryOgre]

The thing about backup hyperdrives is they're so low even compared to normal emplacement points that a few jobs in there's no real excuse not to get like, at least a class 3.

It was for a KOTOR-era game, for large, regular deliveries.

[Sith_Happens]

It was for a KOTOR-era game, for large, regular deliveries.

That might change things a bit. How much slower are the hyperdrives in that era on average anyways?

[LibraryOgre]

That might change things a bit. How much slower are the hyperdrives in that era on average anyways?

I want to say they're about half the speed, but I don't have things handy to check.

[Mando Knight]

I want to say they're about half the speed, but I don't have things handy to check.

I didn't find any rules in KotOR about reducing hyperdrive speeds, and the most ships still have x2 hyperdrives (only surprisingly few GCW-era ships have x1 or better), though KotOR ships are more likely to have x3s than GCW vessels are.

[Alejandro]

Here is a somewhat bizarre request:

What is being created: A Shard PC. (in the Jedi book.)

This particular Shard is not so much in a droid body per se, but in a 'weapon' body. Backstory: During the Galactic Empire, the Shard homeworld Orax was pretty well boned, many Shards exterminated, etc. Palpatine experimented with building some Force-sensitive Shards (as many are) into weapons, with mixed results. The PCs find one of these 'weapons' in their post-Palpatine galaxy from one of his many stashes and labs, and thus the new PC is introduced.

We were envisioning something like a large hammer, force pike, or halberd, with the Shard itself just being a crystal that is mounted inside the weapon. Was avoiding sword stylized things, as there are already plenty of lightsabers and such about. It's technically a droid body, and the Shard can (once they are fixed, by the other PCs) use microrepulsors built into it to hover around on its own, and can even fight by itself, appearing to be a weapon without a wielder. It has relevant Force powers like Battle Strike and such. If the Shard is willing, it can even allow someone else to wield it, and contribute by using its Force powers along with the wielder (like using Battle Strike when the wielder attacks with it) but this might be rare, as the Shard isn't exactly happy over what was done to it. It has a vocoder in the weapon, as well as telepathy, to allow the Shard to talk to other people.

Terrible idea? Good idea? Anything else that could be done, or added/changed? Throw it out and start over?

[Mando Knight]

A weapon's object size is two levels smaller than its weapon size (which means that a creature the same object size as a weapon can't wield the weapon), and a weapon isn't a humanoid. Moreover, the droidification upgrade can't be applied to a weapon. In short, this idea is entirely out-of-bounds of the assumptions that Saga makes.

On the other hand, let's suppose that we're not saying no. That this completely different idea can work somehow, if you're the GM and you get to say what goes.

First, droidification takes up space. Strip the weapon in one manner or another to fit the droid parts. If it's just the shard crystal embedded in a weapon, that's not a player character, that's a weapon... it can't do the things it needs to do to interact with the world to be an actual player character any more than an intelligent magical sword in D&D can.

Next, ignore the ASP droid stats usually given to droidified equipment, and instead add the size modifiers to the Shard racial modifiers to determine stats... a Large weapon like a vibroaxe is Small (but we're going to ignore the limitations of being Small with regards to being able to wield one's own self), so the stat adjustments would be -2 Str, +2 Wis, +1 Reflex, +5 Stealth... and a cost factor of x2, doubling the price of any additional components. Give the character a reasonable Hover locomotion, but that's it: no limbs at all as compensation for getting an integrated weapon and hovering movement.

[Alejandro]

A weapon's object size is two levels smaller than its weapon size (which means that a creature the same object size as a weapon can't wield the weapon), and a weapon isn't a humanoid. Moreover, the droidification upgrade can't be applied to a weapon. In short, this idea is entirely out-of-bounds of the assumptions that Saga makes.

On the other hand, let's suppose that we're not saying no. That this completely different idea can work somehow, if you're the GM and you get to say what goes.

First, droidification takes up space. Strip the weapon in one manner or another to fit the droid parts. If it's just the shard crystal embedded in a weapon, that's not a player character, that's a weapon... it can't do the things it needs to do to interact with the world to be an actual player character any more than an intelligent magical sword in D&D can.

Next, ignore the ASP droid stats usually given to droidified equipment, and instead add the size modifiers to the Shard racial modifiers to determine stats... a Large weapon like a vibroaxe is Small (but we're going to ignore the limitations of being Small with regards to being able to wield one's own self), so the stat adjustments would be -2 Str, +2 Wis, +1 Reflex, +5 Stealth... and a cost factor of x2, doubling the price of any additional components. Give the character a reasonable Hover locomotion, but that's it: no limbs at all as compensation for getting an integrated weapon and hovering movement.

I reached a similar conclusion. However, the player has decided to go for a more traditional approach, and play a (much smaller) Shard Iron Giant. :)

[Scowling Dragon]

I just want to see if Im missing Something:

The 4rth Degree Droid Talent is Droid Smash (X2 Damage If your holding a Weapon in one arm) (Force Unleashed Droids)

And Combat Gauntlets technicaly make you Armed but unarmed as well as long as your trained in simple weapons, for the purposes of feats and talents correct? (Threats of the Galaxy Martial Artist). Would that count for Droid Smash. Because it asms about holding weapons and not unarmed attacks

Combined with Enchai Training feat (X2 STR Damage to a single unarmed attack you do if you only do 1 per turn) (Galaxy at war)

Combined with Slammer (Do a single unamred attack at X2 STR Damage) Scavangers guide to Droids

Does this all stack or am I missing something? Is that Weapon DamageX2^3

[Sith_Happens]

Unless Saga changed this and I'm not remembering, multipliers in d20 are additive, i.e.- each of those talents/feats "adds" x1 damage for a total of x4 damage with all three (assuming they do in fact work together).

[Scowling Dragon]

I remember some person said that the developers of Saga use regular multipliers and not additional multipliers. I may be wrong.

[Sasaisen]

I remember some person said that the developers of Saga use regular multipliers and not additional multipliers. I may be wrong. I looked it up, and it seems to be backed up by quotes on BG, TGD, and the Wizards forums, but I don't have an original source to link. I don't know for sure if it was a FAQ (I believe it was) or reverse-engineered NPC stats or what. SAGA also omits the paragraph regarding multiplier math that 3/3.5e has.

[Scowling Dragon]

In any case I dealt with it by just not making multipliers stack.

And man do I hate Warp Drives as a concept. Its like D&D Teleport except available to everybody and destroys so many basic concepts that fun sci fi depends apon.

So far my players are not abusing it simply because of goodwill and kindness to my soul but man is all tension annihilated when you can teleport anywhere in the galaxy within a few days.

Anybody knows of any tech that interacts with Warp drives in interesting ways?

[Mando Knight]

If you don't like the Hyperdrive, you're perhaps playing the wrong setting. Star Wars in the classic era is about the action at the destinations, not the perils of the journeys there, and that's the way it has been since 1977. Complaining about safe and fast hyperdrive travel within the boundaries of galactic civilization is like complaining that the road from St. Louis to Oregon is too easy now that there's the Interstate Highway system and automobiles that let you travel it in a matter of a couple days instead of dysentery-plagued months.

That said, here are ways to make travel more dangerous within the constraints of the Star Wars setting:

The enemies have hyperdrive, too: the reason the Falcon could reach Bespin within a relevant time period but couldn't use the backup drive to jump away from the Empire was because backup drives are much slower than the main drive. By the time the Falcon reached Bespin, Fett had already determined their destination and sent a signal to Vader, who was able to redeploy the Executor to Bespin from wherever it had gone after leaving Hoth and still had time to set up his trap before Solo got there. While the Imperial-class Star Destroyer only has a Class 2 drive, the Victory-class has a Class 1, meaning that if players don't have a cutting-edge (read: high-maintenance) hyperdrive, they don't necessarily buy themselves any time by jumping systems.
Interdiction: Gravity well technology allows for the occasional pirate trap or impromptu Imperial inspection, by tearing a ship out of hyperspace before it reaches its intended destination.
Unknown Regions: The areas within Republic/Imperial space are well mapped, but the Unknown Regions aren't, hence the name. Unmapped massive bodies and interstellar phenomena make plotting safe routes more difficult and provide ample sources of hazards that a poorly-calculated jump might pass through. Hidden Outer Rim worlds are a bit less dangerous to get to than the mysterious Unknown Regions, but could also require additional mapping time to ensure a safe route.
Dangerous Destinations: Just because the trip itself was safe doesn't mean the destination is. If they're meeting with a Rebel contact on Chandrila, they still have to get through an Imperial blockade first... or at best, Imperial Customs.

[Scowling Dragon]

I mean things like Space Pirates. How does one get ambushed by space pirates for example? I mean I read the Pirates and Privateers Book, but I still feel like it leaves things unsatisfactory for many a part.

How does one get ambushed in space period?

You can't ever really have a sense of exploration, or isolation, because if worst comes to worst you take like 1/2 a day getting back home.

[Mando Knight]

I mean things like Space Pirates. How does one get ambushed by space pirates for example? I mean I read the Pirates and Privateers Book, but I still feel like it leaves things unsatisfactory for many a part.

How does one get ambushed in space period?

Interdictors. Piracy is also generally only an issue out on the Outer Rim, where there aren't enough patrol ships to ward off pirates intercepting traffic just outside orbit.

[Scowling Dragon]

That leads me to another question: When again can a ship warp away? Is it possible in atmosphere? Or only a certain distance in space?

[Nerd-o-rama]

Okay, Hyperdrives and gravity:

Basically, you can only enter/stay in hyperspace if you're a certain distance away from a large gravity well, whether that's generated by a black hole, a star, a planet, a large asteroid, or an artificial gravity-well generator. The standard method of piracy in the Star Wars galaxy - if they can't get their hands on military gravity well projectors - is to tow an asteroid into a heavily-trafficked hyperspace corridor and wait until someone's route passes too close to your ad hoc gravity well and they get pulled back into realspace. In the confusion, tear them apart while they're attempting to leave the gravity well (doesn't take too long vs. an asteroid, but an Interdictor Cruiser can keep an artificial gravity well up at a decent range) and calculate a new hyperspace route (might take several minutes, depending how far out in the boonies you are - see the rules under Use Computer and the extra complications in Unknown Regions).

Another winning pirate strategy is hanging out in moons and asteroid belts around worlds at important hyperspace crossroads, since there's usually a window of at minimum several minutes of sublight travel between edge-of-the-atmosphere and safe hyperspace entry distance. This is also basically how customs interdictions usually work - the government ships just hang out in orbit around the port and watch for anyone making for the planet surface - especially if they're trying to avoid being noticed.

Everything but the first paragraph in the Principles (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hyperdrive#Principles) section of the Hyperdrive page on Wookiepedia is probably relevant to your interests.

[Sith_Happens]

You can't ever really have a sense of exploration, or isolation, because if worst comes to worst you take like 1/2 a day getting back home.

Exploration works just like it always does: go to the places that aren't well mapped. Isolation's a bit trickier, you do have to be pretty deep into the Unknown Regions before it gets hard to find a return route.


That leads me to another question: When again can a ship warp away? Is it possible in atmosphere? Or only a certain distance in space?

The primary obstacle is gravitational fields. Trying to hyper through any significant fraction of g is like hitting a brick wall, though every hyperdrive and it mother has safety features that will stop you before that point.

[Mando Knight]

Okay, Hyperdrives and gravity:

Basically, you can only enter/stay in hyperspace if you're a certain distance away from a large gravity well, whether that's generated by a black hole, a star, a planet, a large asteroid, or an artificial gravity-well generator. The standard method of piracy in the Star Wars galaxy - if they can't get their hands on military gravity well projectors - is to tow an asteroid into a heavily-trafficked hyperspace corridor and wait until someone's route passes too close to your ad hoc gravity well and they get pulled back into realspace. In the confusion, tear them apart while they're attempting to leave the gravity well (doesn't take too long vs. an asteroid, but an Interdictor Cruiser can keep an artificial gravity well up at a decent range) and calculate a new hyperspace route (might take several minutes, depending how far out in the boonies you are - see the rules under Use Computer and the extra complications in Unknown Regions).

Another winning pirate strategy is hanging out in moons and asteroid belts around worlds at important hyperspace crossroads, since there's usually a window of at minimum several minutes of sublight travel between edge-of-the-atmosphere and safe hyperspace entry distance. This is also basically how customs interdictions usually work - the government ships just hang out in orbit around the port and watch for anyone making for the planet surface - especially if they're trying to avoid being noticed.

Everything but the first paragraph in the Principles (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hyperdrive#Principles) section of the Hyperdrive page on Wookiepedia is probably relevant to your interests.

Also, trying to jump to hyperspace when you're caught in a tractor beam will usually tear your ship apart, so interdiction is often complemented with a tractor beam to hold down the prey.

[LibraryOgre]

And don't forget the option for very fast strikes... a couple concussion missiles to take out the shields, then smash with Ion weapons (works less well in SAGA than d6, however). Disabled systems and they're adrift in space until they can fix it.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Also you might have gotten this already, but just to clarify a misconception you had in your first post: Hyperdrive is not teleportation. It's travel through a sort of shadow of realspace where maximum speed is pretty much arbitrarily high instead of being limited by the speed of light. There are physical paths you have to take through it that often shift, thanks to gravity wells of real objects casting their own shadows on Hyperspace that will terminally rip a starship back to reality if they get too close. It needs to be charted, mapped, and navigated as carefully as any real-world ocean. With the help of computers and a galactic-civilization-wide navigational network, a mishap is unlikely if you stick to the well-traveled routes (or have a very good computer), but there are still all kinds of options for accidents or "accidents" in hyperspace, and there's still travel time to account for.

[Scowling Dragon]

I said like D&D Teleport. I understand its not literal teleportation.

[Blackdrop]

I said like D&D Teleport. I understand its not literal teleportation.

It isn't even really like Teleport, more like Ethereal Jaunt than anything.

[LibraryOgre]

I really do not think the comparison to teleportation is adequate, though I think the movies (other than ANH) tend to gloss over travel time.

The problem with the teleport analogy is that hyperspace takes time and is interruptable during that time. If you turned the series into traditional fantasy, putting Tattooine in the middle of the desert, making Yavin down in the jungle, Dagobah in a swamp, etc., and had everyone walking or riding horses everywhere, then you'd have the same narrative effect. Oh, Han's horse is the fastest in the galaxy, but it's temperamental and, oops, as we were escaping the Hoth Glacier, it twisted its ankle. It will heal if we can get it to a vet, but we need to go really slowly until then. Nearest vet? It's at Bespin City, not too far away, where the local Baron is an old friendly rival of Han's... and something of a scoundrel.

If I weren't using Star Wars names, that would be a fairly believable occurrence in swords and sorcery fantasy. Heck, even WITH Star Wars names, it works if you don't know Star Wars.

[kreenlover]

If I weren't using Star Wars names, that would be a fairly believable occurrence in swords and sorcery fantasy. Heck, even WITH Star Wars names, it works if you don't know Star Wars.

So, if this were the Darths and Droids 'verse, it'd work just fine.

[Jayngfet]

I really do not think the comparison to teleportation is adequate, though I think the movies (other than ANH) tend to gloss over travel time.

Saga edition travel time is garbage anyway. It takes everyone in the films at most half a day to get anywhere but the system insists on 1d6 x multiplier days regardless of distance for no real reason except to make hyperdrives a money sink.

I mean seriously. Can you imagine the rebel alliance attack fleet waiting around for four days in their fighters with two days of rations and then going to Endor half starved? I mean did Luke's X-Wing have some kind of toilet in the cockpit? Is he wearing adult diapers under his orange jumpsuit?

It makes zero sense in the context of what the films and the rest of the EU actually displays hyperspace time as being. Much in the same sense that nobody else ever mentions the eight different kinds of paperwork the system expects the GM to make player characters fill out before they can even get a ship to begin with.

[Blue Duke]

you also cant just jump straight to your target usually, you have to go between explored points. system to system until you get there.

[Scowling Dragon]

Also question is there any difference between a Blaster Carbine and a Blaster rifle?

[Mando Knight]

Also question is there any difference between a Blaster Carbine and a Blaster rifle?

Without errata, the carbine can be used for Attacks of Opportunity while the stock is unfolded, while the rifle cannot. With errata, the same holds true, but the carbine also becomes Inaccurate, meaning it can't fire at Long range.

[Scowling Dragon]

Well Rifles also had Stocks. So point being that Rifles are better because they are not inaccurate.

[Sparx MacGyver]

Well Rifles also had Stocks. So point being that Rifles are better because they are not inaccurate.

I think it's more like which has a higher chance of happening: AoO or actually being at long range?

[Mando Knight]

Well Rifles also had Stocks.
Yes, the blaster rifle's cost assumes it has a folding stock as well, but the carbine's text states it can be used for AoOs while the stock is unfolded (that is, extended), while a normal rifle cannot be used in that manner.

I think it's more like which has a higher chance of happening: AoO or actually being at long range?
The answer in most games is neither. Ranged attacks don't provoke in Saga, you still only threaten adjacent squares with your carbine anyway. If you need to make a shot longer than 150 squares (the end of Medium range for rifles), you're probably not going to hit anyway unless you're a dedicated marksman... in which case you're probably going to be looking for something like the DLT-20A anyway rather than the basic blaster rifle.

[Scowling Dragon]

Anyway Im in a tiff with a player:

An Inquisitor Confronts a character and demands to know if he is a Jedi.

The character replies with a yes, and she plans to take him into the HQ and asks he comes willingly.

He mind tricks her with the following:


"You can trust me"
"You don't need to take me in"

He beat her save, but I say that wouldn't work. I say that when she directly knows he is a Jedi and knows how they do it, a command worded that way won't get her to believe contradictory reality.

What do you think?

Edit: His argument, is that he was convincing her she wouldn't need to take him in.


My belief is that as a core belief, she wouldn't accept that. Thats her primary motive in this case.

[Mando Knight]

The relevant effect from Mind Trick:

"You make an otherwise unpalatable suggestion seem completely reasonable to the target."

So, the sticking point is, what are the limits of "unpalatable"? Is it like Lelouch's geass except with a no-suicide rider, or is the "can't directly threaten the target's life" just one example of something that Mind Trick can't demand and not the full limits?

To interpret this, let's look at the other parameters. Mind Trick can alternately serve as a diversion in place of Deception in order to feint or hide, or can cause an opponent to flee for one minute or until injured. Spending a Force Point lets your modify your opponent's attitude by one step, plus one step for every 5 points by which you beat the Will defense. It's clearly meant to be a Force-based deception, not straight-up mind control.

Now, let's look at the situation: a Jedi admitted to an Imperial Inquisitor that he is a Jedi and that 1. he should be trusted and 2. she doesn't need to take him in. "Unpalatable" would be an understatement: Stormtroopers might believe that some old guy and a kid coming into town don't have the droids they're looking for so they can go about their business, but the request is essentially trying to make mortal enemies trusted allies (an Inquisitor's entire existence is to hunt down Force Users that don't pledge allegiance to the Emperor). If he didn't burn a Force Point and beat the Inquisitor's Will by 15 (to bring the attitude up 4 steps from Hostile to Helpful), that's a no-go.

[Jayngfet]

So I'm getting ready to design an Air Superiority Fighter, and I'm running into a snag: How do I factor in an astromech socket? It's not listed under any of the things costing emplacement points, but some fighters have it and others don't. Is it considered free?

As for the mind trick thing:

I'm in that game. I told him repeatedly that abusing mind tricks would eventually land him in a world of trouble. Especially on a planet you know for a fact has multiple ranking inquisitors and that they are watching you specifically, and know you can do force stuff. I don't actually feel any sympathy for him if his habit of trying to magic his way out of his problems backfires.

[Waar]

Anyway Im in a tiff with a player:
He mind tricks her with the following:


I would not let that work, because:

a) mandos entire post
b) She not needning to take him in does not mean she will not do it.
c) mind trick can make a course of action seem resonable, it does not make the alternatives unresonable.

[Scowling Dragon]

As a GM Consider an astromech socket a part of passengers. Just replace 1 passenger slot with a Astromech slot. Or maybe its free. I dunno depends on the ship.

Anyways, is it possible to use rapid shot / strike with thrown weapons? Im just curious.

[kreenlover]

Anyways, is it possible to use rapid shot / strike with thrown weapons? Im just curious.

Not sure about official rulings, but Rapid Shot requires the use of multiple shots, and consumes ammo faster.
So, if they could draw their throwing weapons as free actions, and had multiple of the the thrown weapon in question on them, then yes, I would rule that Rapid Shot could work. However, even then it is a matter of what the GM thinks best.
Rapid Strike plain would not, as it isn't a melee attack.

[Jayngfet]

As a GM Consider an astromech socket a part of passengers. Just replace 1 passenger slot with a Astromech slot. Or maybe its free. I dunno depends on the ship.

Anyways, is it possible to use rapid shot / strike with thrown weapons? Im just curious.

I'd need to check but I'm pretty sure the Dunelizard makes it clear the two are considered separate in it's entry. A passenger isn't a gunner or engineer.

[Scowling Dragon]

Question:

If there is a Leader of Droids feat that allows you to advantage droids with Moral Effects and the like: Is it possible to do the reverse and make a Destroyer of Droids Feat that allows you to apply penalties to them?

Would that be a balanced deal?

Edit: Im also in a pickle as to how to challenge my droid player. Because of the aforementioned stumbling backwards into allot of money, he had the opportunity to upgrade himself to the max.

Shields 15, Always on Flight, and Extendo arms. Alongside a powerful build, and Tech Spec and Superior Tech (For higher stat bonuses).

I just feel like I handed him a bunch of power way too early. I can barely lay a scratch on him outside of the usual "Lots of Enemies with Aid Another".

I just don't know how to deal with it in a dignified manner.

[Mando Knight]

At that point, treat him as a vehicle.

Also, start enforcing encumbrance on every component that was not part of the base body.

While there is, to my knowledge, no feat or talent that lets you override the mind-affecting restriction on droids offensively, it would not be particularly unbalanced.

Regarding droid sockets: they're outlined in Scavenger's guide, as a straight-up 10k credit upgrade and weighing 1000kg. Since this doesn't really make sense compared to the existing Emplacement Point system, I'm assuming that it's meant to take up exactly that much cargo space (making it take up effectively one EP for a Huge fighter and 1/2 of one for a Gargantuan fighter, and negligible for much larger ships).

[Beleriphon]

As a GM Consider an astromech socket a part of passengers. Just replace 1 passenger slot with a Astromech slot. Or maybe its free. I dunno depends on the ship.

Anyways, is it possible to use rapid shot / strike with thrown weapons? Im just curious.

I think astromech slots are counted as highly specific crew slot. Another option is to replace the navicomp with an astromech on ships, so you could treat is as navicomp slot.

[LibraryOgre]

I would make an astromech socket part of a hyperdrive, myself, though I can also see the passenger option. While a usual passenger isn't an engineer, a usual passenger also requires atmosphere, and an usual engineer requires interfaces other than "input port".

For the mind trick, I would lean towards that they'd give the jedi a chance to talk their way out of it, but not the certainty.

[Mando Knight]

Anyways, is it possible to use rapid shot / strike with thrown weapons? Im just curious.

With some creative interpretation of ammunition and "a" ranged weapon, sure... but only Rapid Shot, as Rapid Strike is for melee attacks, and only if you have the second projectile in hand (since you need to have enough "ammo" "loaded" for the attack, and the talents that let you recall your thrown weapons take an additional action). I would personally prefer to turn that over to Dual Weapon fighting instead, but if you have something like a stack of space-shuriken or something, I'd allow Rapid Shot.

[Scowling Dragon]

Say, what is the guideline for enemy equipment per level? Or a good recommendation of equipment/ level

[LibraryOgre]

For me, SAGA was always less gear-driven, so I wouldn't give people really special gear unless I wanted really special gear to be available.

[Jayngfet]

I think astromech slots are counted as highly specific crew slot. Another option is to replace the navicomp with an astromech on ships, so you could treat is as navicomp slot.

Astromech slots were always kind of buggy in that some ships have them, some don't, and even in SotG and beyond the only real distinction is usually "in the video games this model has it, this model doesn't".

An astromech slot I would just give free if it was me, simply because then you need to drop like five thousand credits minimum for a droid capable of giving more than a one way trip and you need to program the whole thing ahead of time. Even in combat if it lowers or raises shields that difference is so low while damage output is so high you'll barely miss the difference unless you're good at dodging.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I run from modules, but when customizing I generally give "custom" gear (Tech Specialist or installed mods) to named/"boss" characters only, and usually with the intent of giving my players a neat toy after it gets used on them. For more general enemies I give them whatever stock equipment they need to perform their "role" and maybe a bit of pocket money if they're mercs or criminals, without worrying too much about gear cost or the effects of looting.

[Beleriphon]

My thought on gear has always been what is sensible for the players to face, and the enemies to wield against the players. So storm troopers aren't generally going to bust out the heave rocket launchers and ship scale weapons against and old man, a kid and two droids. They going to be carrying a combination of blaster rifles, grenades, and maybe one heavy weapon. If the players raid an Imperial Garrison they might find a tone of blasters, and maybe a few heavy weapons of some kind. Generally the trick to provide so much stuff they literally can't take all of it, or make the current objective time sensitive enough the PCs don't get to loot every body. I mean who has time to stop and grab blaster rifles when Darth Vader is a move action away from choking you death?

The last time I GM'd SAGA I included a beat up old imperial assault shuttle that had no weapons as the only ship in a pirate base the PCs were escaping from. I made it abundantly obvious that this rust old vessel was to be used, and upgraded, by the PCs. I find that if you make it obvious what is in the game as "loot" and what isn't most players will go along with that setup.

[*.*.*.*]

So, do to Wizards deleting their CharOp stuff, I have lost a SAGA build I always wanted to play. It was a melee/stealth based Yuuzhan Vong with some pilot capabilities. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

[Scowling Dragon]

Anybody have any idea how to stat up those stupid new twirly whirly lightsabers that the inquisitors have now?

[Mando Knight]

Trying to balance it out, primarily for use by characters like the Inquisitors, offering advantages to overall-mediocre Force Users while being less attractive to actual Jedi or Sith.

Size: Medium; Cost: 8000 Credits; Damage: 2d8/2d8; Stun: No; Weight: 2 kg; Type: Energy and slashing; Availability: Rare (Illegal under the Galactic Empire)

The Spinning Lightsaber is a unique piece of equipment distributed by Emperor Palpatine to his Inquisitors (and is often also called an "Inquisitor Lightsaber" because of it). Consisting of a lightsaber handle surrounded by a circular guard and two emitters, the Spinning Lightsaber is a double weapon that is weighted so that it may be used with one hand. If you choose to use only one hand when attacking with both ends of the weapon, you loses your Strength bonus to the damage roll.

In addition, as a swift action the user can engage the weapon's drive motors, rapidly spinning the emitters around the central handle. While the weapon is spinning, deflecting blows becomes easier, granting a +2 competence bonus to Use the Force checks to use the Block and Deflect talents. However, because the weapon's rapidly spinning blades make it more difficult to leverage an effective attack, you take a -2 penalty to all attack rolls made with the weapon while it is in spinning mode.

[Scowling Dragon]

Works perfectly.

[Jayngfet]

Question: There's a starship designer feat, but is there a droid designer feat? I've been tossing around some ideas for a second degree droid and Starship design isn't hyper feasible right now just because all my ship based resources are going towards other stuff, which will take in game months and like a million credits in goods. Designing a droid worth a few thousand credits is much easier than designing a ship worth 200k given my situation.

[LibraryOgre]

I'd provisionally allow a droid designer feat.

[Scowling Dragon]

Question: Does SR or DR come first? I think SR, but it never hurts to ask.

Also is it just me, or do defenses scale MUCH faster than offenses?

I mean its Ability score ,+2 at level 1-7, +4 at level 8-20, + Level

Its like the classes that offer situational +1/2 bonuses are the same ones that have lower BAB progression so it just balances out.

[Mando Knight]

SR is first.

Yes, defenses scale pretty harshly in Saga. However, you're not supposed to be using at-level NPCs against your players for every encounter, that's not how Star Wars works. With that in mind, the big showdowns against Heroic enemies are places where you burn Force Points, which will make up much of the difference, and the aggressive scaling for defenses mean that you can throw on a couple Heroic levels on elite mooks to have them last a little longer than your average stormtrooper squad.

[LibraryOgre]

Yes, defenses scale pretty harshly in Saga. However, you're not supposed to be using at-level NPCs against your players for every encounter, that's not how Star Wars works. With that in mind, the big showdowns against Heroic enemies are places where you burn Force Points, which will make up much of the difference, and the aggressive scaling for defenses mean that you can throw on a couple Heroic levels on elite mooks to have them last a little longer than your average stormtrooper squad.

I'll add that defenses scale less powerfully in Classless Saga, or when dealing with Jedi or Soldiers... your attack bonus is your level, matched with their defense bonus of their level, plus a few modifiers (their class modifiers to defenses, attribute modifiers to attacks and defenses, various feats, etc.).

[Waar]

Also is it just me, or do defenses scale MUCH faster than offenses?

I mean its Ability score ,+2 at level 1-7, +4 at level 8-20, + Level

Its like the classes that offer situational +1/2 bonuses are the same ones that have lower BAB progression so it just balances out.

Yes, which is why you should be carfull with combat against npcs with a heroic level equal to or higher than the pcs, but nonheroics and lower level heroics make much better targets.

oh and don't disregard the value of getting +2 to hit from a noble with supporting talents or other team wide buffs.

[Scowling Dragon]

As an experiment, I took the Boss Template from the Tower of the Lonely GM (http://lonelygm.blogspot.com/2011/06/boss-template.html) and converted it into Star Wars Saga.

Thoughts? Balance recomendations?

The Boss Template

These alterations are meant to increase an Enemy’s capabilities so that it may face a group of PCs (player characters). After applying the template the Enemy’s CL will be equal to its original value + 1 for every 2 PCs in the party rounded up. For example: a Mercenary Soldier boss facing 5 PCs would be CL 6 (original CL 3 + 2 for 4 first PCs, rounding up the 5th). As always, this is just an approximation and the Gamemaster should check the Enemy’s new stats.

This template presupposes a narrative structure underling the adventure (i.e.: the altered Enemy has this power level not itself, but only in contrast to the heroes).

Rules:

General: The Enemy gains a Boss bonus on all its attack rolls, damage rolls, ability checks, skill checks, and damage threshold equal to the number the number of PCs faced or its original CL (whichever is lower).

Hip Points: Multiply the Enemy’s original HPs by the number of PCs.

Combat Prowess: The Enemy gains one extra standard action for every 2 PCs it is facing (Round down).

It can’t use this extra standard action during its turn. Instead that standard action becomes a mini turn. Go down the initiative order below the enemy (Or loop back around to the top if the Enemy is going last), and intersperse the extra standard actions in-between the players turns. This standard action may be exchanged for a move or swift action as usual. If the standard action is used to attack, the primary target must be a different target then any of the other bonus standard actions.
Finally, the Enemy also gains the same number in extra attacks of opportunity.

Force Points: The Enemy gains its full array of force points +1 per PC. If it’s a purely Nonplayer Class, it gains force points equal to 5+1/2 its nonheroic level.

Theme: The Enemy gains special abilities linked to a common theme, chosen below. An enemy can activate one of the abilities chosen from its theme by spending a force point. Force points spent this way don’t count towards the total force points spent in the round. However the boss can only spend a number of force points for the use of these abilities per round equal to the amount of PCs/2 rounded down.

Brute Force
- Automatically make an attack that targets the fortitude defense miss (Immediate action)
- After hitting an attack, deal maximum damage (can’t be used on critical) (free action)
- Gain a number of temporary HPs equal to original CL x 5 or move +5 steps up the condition track (immediate action)
- Keep fighting for 1 more turn even if reduced bellow 0 HPs or dead (standard action)

UNLIMITED POWER
- Apply any Force Technique (the Enemy doesn’t need to have it) to the next Force Power used. If the technique has a force point cost to activate, that force point cost is waived(swift action)
- Recover one Force Power (free action, after using the ability)
- Gain one free use of the Negate Energy or Rebuke Power (immediate action)
- Automatically make an attack that targets the Will defense miss (Immediate action)
- Ignore the next spell/powers cast against it, until the Enemy has ignored a number of spell/power levels equal to its original CL (swift action, can only be used once per encounter)

Cunning (Do It)
- Extra standard action (can’t be an attack) (swift action)
- Force enemy to reroll any check and take the worse result (immediate action)
- One enemy’s action provokes an attack of opportunity even if it wouldn’t normally (immediate action)
- Deal +2 damage per the enemies original CL (Round down) on the Enemies next attack against a target that’s flat footed, unaware, or otherwise denied its dexterity bonus to its reflex Defense (immediate action)
- Automatically make an attack that targets the Reflex or Will defense miss (Immediate action)
-Gain Concealment for 1 round (swift action)

[Blue Duke]

I was never happy with default storm troopers as presented in the Core book....it felt like they were going towards movie troopers 'the mooks of empire' when i thought that stormies were the Elite and the mooks were imperial army....any one have or know which book i should look into for the properly elite Storm troopers as opposed to CL1 goon squad troops ?