A Better Warlock?

[SwordPsion]

How balanced would giving the warlock all of their invocations, instead of having to choose between them, be? Say, either by giving them all the invocations they qualify for at the earliest level that they do (this seems to create a few awkward breaking points for the class, where it peaks in relative power and where multiclassing is incentivized), or by replacing "total invocations known" with an "invocations prepared" mechanic, much as the Arcanist in Pathfinder prepares "spells known" that it can then cast spontaneously.

I've heard that much of the reason for warlock's position in Tier 4 is that it just can't actually use all of its options, not that its invocation list is lacking in variety or overall versatility. Would giving them access to their entire invocation list be enough to boost them to Tier 3? And if it does (which I suspect), how strong will it be within Tier 3? How would it compare to factoti and beguilers and swordsages?

More generally speaking, what shapes how balanced an at-will power type class is? What are the trade-offs, and how do you stay firmly in Tier 3 (instead of 2 or 4)?

[AmberVael]

How balanced would giving the warlock all of their invocations, instead of having to choose between them, be? Say, either by giving them all the invocations they qualify for at the earliest level that they do (this seems to create a few awkward breaking points for the class, where it peaks in relative power and where multiclassing is incentivized), or by replacing "total invocations known" with an "invocations prepared" mechanic, much as the Arcanist in Pathfinder prepares "spells known" that it can then cast spontaneously.
I think an invocations prepared mechanic would work a lot better than giving them all invocations. The downside of using the prepared method (assuming that's all you do) is that they'd still have a small number of every day, and it can feel kinda constraining and boring.

Alternately, giving them a somewhat thematic list (like Beguiler or Dread Necromancer) and giving them a very large quantity of invocations would also work out.

That said, if you're just working with all the invocations from Complete Arcane, it'd probably end up fine. While that would be a sizable number, you can generally hit all the really good options with a much smaller number, and many of the worse options are barely worth using to begin with. You'll give them new options without making things too bad.

In general though, I'd just recommend raising the number of invocations known by a set amount- that's a much better way of handling it.


I've heard that much of the reason for warlock's position in Tier 4 is that it just can't actually use all of its options, not that its invocation list is lacking in variety or overall versatility. Would giving them access to their entire invocation list be enough to boost them to Tier 3? And if it does (which I suspect), how strong will it be within Tier 3? How would it compare to factoti and beguilers and swordsages?
Id put them in tier 3, probably above the Initiating classes (who wouldn't have as many or as strong options), but below the fixed list casters (who can use their options less frequently, but can have much greater impact with them).


More generally speaking, what shapes how balanced an at-will power type class is? What are the trade-offs, and how do you stay firmly in Tier 3 (instead of 2 or 4)?

A lot has to do with how strong the power is to begin with. Pathfinder gives all spellcasters cantrips at will, and not much changes from that, you'll notice. However, give everyone Miracle at will and its a different story.
There are some significant things to consider though- like an invocation that can heal hit points can just do it over and over again, no matter how small the number of hit points it heals is. And if you have an invocation that can affect someone other than the caster then they'll just buff the whole party with it. That second part is why almost all the warlock powers are personal only- one of the designers said that the warlock's powers should generally be "selfish" for that reason. Of course, there are other ways to balance it than that- you could balance it around being an aura, or have it explicitly only affect one person at a time.

Mainly, just consider the consequences of being able to use something over and over again. Wall of Stone is cool- at will Wall of Stone means fortresses for camping sites.

[marphod]

That second part is why almost all the warlock powers are personal only

And why the Spellthief's steal-spell-effects ability is bizarre. On the other hand, the Spellthief can just steal the spell like ability and use it.


I think an invocations prepared mechanic would work a lot better than giving them all invocations. The downside of using the prepared method (assuming that's all you do) is that they'd still have a small number of every day, and it can feel kinda constraining and boring.

Incarnum users only get a similar number of options each day. They do get to throw Incarnum Investments around to mix it up a little, but we're not talking a whole lot. As I understand it, that's similar for Binders (I don't actually know the Tome of Magic that well).

(Factorum get a similar number of spells, but they've got the rest of their class's awesomeness to fall back on.)

I don't see this as being much of a drawback, all told. It gives the warlock the flexibility they are lacking, and keeps most of their flavor. You could also go with something like the Initiator's maneuvers known v. readied, but that's probably adding more complexity than necessary.

I would put this Warlock as a powerful Tier 3, almost a very weak Tier 2. Especially if you included the Invocations from Dragon Magic and Complete Mage. They still lack the breadth of options available to most of the Tier 2 classes and even the best Dark Invocations are weak compared to good 7th and 8th level spells.

If you add in the ability to power runestaves via invocations (although it would usually require a UMD check to emulate the class spellcasting ability for the spell list), you're well into Tier 2, IMO.

[AmberVael]

Incarnum users only get a similar number of options each day. They do get to throw Incarnum Investments around to mix it up a little, but we're not talking a whole lot. As I understand it, that's similar for Binders (I don't actually know the Tome of Magic that well).

(Factorum get a similar number of spells, but they've got the rest of their class's awesomeness to fall back on.)
I would argue that Incarnum generally is boring. Functional (if you know what you're doing), but boring. It doesn't get a ton of things per day, all of those things are very passive. The underlying system is cool... but not to use, really. I wouldn't consider something like an Incarnate to be a good example of how to make a class.

Binder is in a better situation- even when it only gets one vestige, it at least gets an array of abilities from that vestige. Early on they're rather more interesting to use than the warlock.


I don't see this as being much of a drawback, all told. It gives the warlock the flexibility they are lacking, and keeps most of their flavor. You could also go with something like the Initiator's maneuvers known v. readied, but that's probably adding more complexity than necessary.
Honestly I think prepared can work, I'd probably just bump up the number of invocations they can prepare. Probably just start them off higher than 1 and leave it at that, similar to initiators- that'd really take care of it. The issue is mostly just at the low levels that they get so few. (One invocation is really just inadequate).

I'd still prefer more invocations known over prepared, but that just starts to get into personal preference.


I would put this Warlock as a powerful Tier 3, almost a very weak Tier 2. Especially if you included the Invocations from Dragon Magic and Complete Mage. They still lack the breadth of options available to most of the Tier 2 classes and even the best Dark Invocations are weak compared to good 7th and 8th level spells.

Ehhh... not really. Beguiler, and Dread Necromancer will eclipse a warlock in power no matter how many invocations they get, and they're hanging out in tier 3. Bard's doing pretty well too. To get Warlocks into tier 2 they need invocations of higher power, not more invocations.

[Troacctid]

Giving them all invocations they qualify for as invocations known would be stupidly unbalanced and just generally a bad idea. Imagine dipping a single level and getting every least invocation. Frontloading a class like that is poor design. You're also introducing a ton of dead levels into the class progression that make it less fun for a Warlock to level up, and making every single Warlock identical.

Using an invocations prepared system should work great though. Just make sure you patch up the "Use my 24 hour invocation right before I prepare new ones, it still lasts 24 hours" thing. And the "Use the dead walk once, never need to prepare it again" thing.

[marphod]

Using an invocations prepared system should work great though. Just make sure you patch up the "Use my 24 hour invocation right before I prepare new ones, it still lasts 24 hours" thing. And the "Use the dead walk once, never need to prepare it again" thing.

Easiest Solution:
Effects from Invocations you swap out terminate immediately. (Don't do this while waiting for your hand or eye to regrow from the creeping eye/crawling hand invocations from Complete Mage.)

Slightly More Consistent, but less Elegant:
Standard Rule about spells/slots used within 8 hours of regaining spells. Change Walking Dead (using the material component) to a 24 hour effect, but one that can be extended (without an additional material component) if you use the power again before the time period elapses.
(It means double-effects for 16 hours a day, or until dispelled)

[JoranShadeslayr]

The simplest way to give Warlocks more power without it being unbalancing is to allow them a new invocation at every level, but keep the rate at which they gain a new grade of invocations the same, giving them 20 invocations at 20th level. It allows for a little more versatility without being overpowered.

[Socratov]

Also, I'd like to remind people that in a game where crafting is used the warlock will be solid T3 beucase of its lvl 12 ability Imbue Item. That ability (along with its lvl 4 ability decieve item) has been ignored in teh tier system since items were not taken into account.

AS to the point OP is making, yes giving a warlock all of the invocations will greatly increase their options and also make them solidly T3. Even if only becauseyou increase their defenses and buffs, as well as increase half of the skills by 6.

[Chronos]

Quoth Socratov:

That ability (along with its lvl 4 ability decieve item) has been ignored in teh tier system since items were not taken into account.
In that case, how is the artificer Tier 1? That ability was actually given low weight in the tier system because it doesn't come online until level 12, and the tier system mostly only considers up to level 15 (so it's only available for a small fraction of that time).

Still, though, I would argue that the as-is warlock is already Tier 3. It has no single ability that lasts for the full level range that's worth that much, but it has a collection of abilities that does it. At low levels, Summon Swarm makes them one of the most powerful classes in the game. About the time that's losing its luster, you get Deceive Item, and can use every wand without even needing a roll. That carries you most of the rest of the way, until you get Imbue Item (though there's a bit of a slowdown for a level or two right before that).

[Tulya]

Most warlock invocations aren't very good, don't add much utility, and/or compete for limited action economy. Access to all invocations you're able to take wouldn't really unbalance things, but you probably wouldn't accomplish much more than all warlocks running around with a large number of passive buffs they couldn't otherwise fit into builds.

If you want to go that kind of route, consider giving Shape and Essence invocations for free. You still have to make choices on each blast, and you might actually end up using a number of shapes or essences you'd never consider throwing into a build otherwise.

[Ellowryn]

I think having them "prepare" their invocations each day from all available sources along the same lines of what they have for known now, probably just increase the whole table by 1 (maybe bump it up to 2 when they hit 10th level), would be best. Of course the stipulation that all buffs disappear when you are re-preparing your invocations should be in effect. Leaving the Dead Walk as is is fine as wizards who cast Animate Dead don't have to re-prepare the spell every day or risk losing control, once they cast it they control them within the limits of the spell. Their access to Lesser, Greater, and Dark Invocations should remain at the same level. Yes this means that they can load up with nothing but high level Invocations, but to be honest one of the nice things about Invocations is there are actually a lot of very good low level ones that are still relevant at higher levels.

I also think removing the somatic components from invocations would be very good, along with fixing the EB damage table (why on earth they decided to arrest the progression after 11th level is beyond me) and making EB bypass SR (cause warlocks should be useful in combat against golems before level 11).

Overall, this should boost Warlocks to mid T3. Very flexible, with decent amounts of power but can't do everything or break games.

[Honest Tiefling]

If you want to go that kind of route, consider giving Shape and Essence invocations for free. You still have to make choices on each blast, and you might actually end up using a number of shapes or essences you'd never consider throwing into a build otherwise.

Could just put the shape/essence invocations on a separate track. As in, the normal progression is used for all other invocations, but they get an additional number of invocations just for shape/essences. Bumps up the number a notch, but can be easily controlled unlike granting them ALL invocations which might be a bit much. Also, I perfer the specialist approach to character building.

I agree on the personal aspect however. Yes, the warlock has an evil-ish flavor, but you don't broadcast it, you moron! I guess making the party fighter fly and invisible is a decent power boost. But I believe that buffs tend not to upset the party overly much, and in this case, can add to the tactical side of things.

[atemu1234]

Maybe they'd earn tier 2?

[SinsI]

Maybe they'd earn tier 2?

Class with only at-will powers that are not customized at each level cannot be tier 2, as tier 2 is "can be built to solve any task easily, but cannot be built to solve all tasks."

[Socratov]

In that case, how is the artificer Tier 1? That ability was actually given low weight in the tier system because it doesn't come online until level 12, and the tier system mostly only considers up to level 15 (so it's only available for a small fraction of that time).

Still, though, I would argue that the as-is warlock is already Tier 3. It has no single ability that lasts for the full level range that's worth that much, but it has a collection of abilities that does it. At low levels, Summon Swarm makes them one of the most powerful classes in the game. About the time that's losing its luster, you get Deceive Item, and can use every wand without even needing a roll. That carries you most of the rest of the way, until you get Imbue Item (though there's a bit of a slowdown for a level or two right before that).

Simple: the warlock has better tools(duals wands fir instance) and a better kit (infusions) and a better resource system (craftwing points and salvaging of them) for building items as well as it coming online earlier. Plus Jaron K has said that the artificer is the only class where he specifically considered items since the class is nothing but item crafting and usage (somewhere in the why each class is in its tier discussions). When asked he said that the warlock had non-item creation and usage options and thus could be judged based on that. Though, when played right the warlock can be a veritable artificer light. (very light that is).

As for your second point, I fully agree. I think that compared to the warblade that the warlock has more options out of combat. In combat the warblade might have the edge (at least early in the game until you turn any battlefield into a wasteland of spiked cold tentacles of forced intrusion), but out of combat you have all kinds of skill boosters, a decent skillist and other such treats that make playing the class just so much more worth it in my opinion. Also, Jaron K is stated to have said that he didn't like warlocks so much (which is fine, but explains a bit about its palce in the tier system). I tihnk we can all agree that the warlock hovers aroudn that high T4/low T3 point of balance.

[bekeleven]

Eldritch blast may full attack for iteratives. Damage is fixed up to equal sneak attack. 4+Int Skill points per level. Warlocks get an invocation every level, but must take a blast essence or shape every 5 levels.
This is my quick & dirty warlock fix in my houserules document. I don't like every warlock looking/playing the same (I'm a huge proponent of a class where not all members look alike, how boring would it be if there were only ~60 different characters to make?) and invocations known serve that purpose nicely.

[Silva Stormrage]

This is my quick & dirty warlock fix in my houserules document. I don't like every warlock looking/playing the same (I'm a huge proponent of a class where not all members look alike, how boring would it be if there were only ~60 different characters to make?) and invocations known serve that purpose nicely.

Do you change Eldritch Glaive in anyway or is it just a redundant ability in your rules? Just curious on the matter since the rest of these seem solid :smalltongue:

[bekeleven]

Do you change Eldritch Glaive in anyway or is it just a redundant ability in your rules? Just curious on the matter since the rest of these seem solid :smalltongue:
Dragon Magazine content isn't allowed by default in my games, so I don't mind it being redundant.

[Silva Stormrage]

Dragon Magazine content isn't allowed by default in my games, so I don't mind it being redundant.

:smallconfused: but it is in Dragon Magic not Dragon Magazine, Eldritch Claws I think is in Dragon Magazine though.

[AmberVael]

Dragon Magazine content isn't allowed by default in my games, so I don't mind it being redundant.

Eldritch claws are from Dragon Magazine. Eldritch Glaive is from the 3.5 book, Dragon Magic.



Personally, while I see the need for iteratives on a warlock, I prefer the route of giving them good/interesting blast shapes instead of making iterative attacks the default. If your blast shape doesn't handle your attack needs, it wasn't designed well enough to begin with. (See: Almost all existing blast shapes).

[bekeleven]

:smallconfused: but it is in Dragon Magic not Dragon Magazine, Eldritch Claws I think is in Dragon Magazine though.

Bah, my mistake.

All the same, locks don't outdamage melee with iterative blasts, I don't see much of an issue. You could make a blast shape that's "Shoot as many times as your BAB lets you" if you wanted, I guess.