T3 Balancing

[torrasque666]

What tend to be the best way of removing T1 and T2 classes from the game without completely neutering it?

[TheIronGolem]

What do you mean by "neutering"? I know of no reason why a game can't function without any particular class or group of classes.

[OldTrees1]

There is almost nothing you need to do.
1) You still need to evaluate encounter's threat levels rather that blindly use WotC's poor estimates at CR. This becomes slightly more important for high CR monsters that are known for their spell-like abilities.
2) You would want to include more source books to allow Tier 3 alternatives to the banned classes for players that wanted to play those archetypes. (Beguiler class, Dread Necromancer class, Warmage class, Bard/Crusader class, Arcane Disciple feat, ...)

[Karl Aegis]

Can you rephrase the question in Proper English?

[HurinTheCursed]

Agreed, there are plenty of T3 classes that are comparable to other tiers in gameplay (but not in power) and could be used as substitutes.

However, beware some abilities, usually available from best tiers only, may be lacking for a given campaign. Group fly, teleport...

Then, tiers were defined by good optimizers with good comprehension of the system. I'm not sure tiers were defined by what an average player can make of the class rather than what a good optimizer can make of it.

Finally, you should also take into account the ability of each player. Some are good at optimizing any class, some are good in tactical play... Balance is more than just the choice of a given class, some will use clerics as healbots, some will play druids as... no just kidding, no one can play a weak druid. Just to say a T4 in the hands of a minmaxer might have more impact in some groups than a neglected T1.

[torrasque666]

I realized after I posted this, that what I was looking for was the Houserules thread that was posted not long ago.

[OldTrees1]

Can you rephrase the question in Proper English?

It is in Proper English. It merely has an ambiguous term(quite common in Proper English since even "Proper English" is one such term).



Question: What are some good Tier 3 classes/class combos to represent Priests(since most Divine casters are Tier 1-2).

[eggynack]

Question: What are some good Tier 3 classes/class combos to represent Priests(since most Divine casters are Tier 1-2).
Healer fits the bill decently. At its base, the class is tier 5, but account for sanctified spells and you have something hanging around on the edge between tier 3 and tier 4. With some reasonable optimization, and maybe a houseruled buff if you want to push things, such a character could fit in well with a tier three party, especially because such games often incorporate tier 4 already.

[Rhyltran]

It is in Proper English. It merely has an ambiguous term(quite common in Proper English since even "Proper English" is one such term).



Question: What are some good Tier 3 classes/class combos to represent Priests(since most Divine casters are Tier 1-2).

Wouldn't the answer to that be a Divine Bard?

[marphod]

Question: What are some good Tier 3 classes/class combos to represent Priests(since most Divine casters are Tier 1-2).

Rogues do well as Priests. So do Beguilers, Champions, Paladins, and any other class that gets most of the social skills and where putting points into Charisma isn't a pure-loss. There is no need for Priests to be casters.

As for Divine Casters (which aren't really necessary, as the distinction between them and arcane is mostly artificial):
Slightly flavor-adjusted Warlock. Ignore the 'non-good or non-lawful' part.
Spellthief with the Divine Blooded feat.
Magewright or Adept.
The aforementioned Divine Bard.
Factorum (if you believe they're tier 3 rather than 2).
Binder without the Summon Monster Vestige.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I'm running a game where I've split Wizards/Sorcerers into 4 different classes, based loosely on the Focus Specialist/UA variants. Each sub-class is highly limited in its spell list, with one class based on Conjuration (sans Teleports), one on Evocation + Teleports, one with Necromancy spells drawn from multiple class lists plus a set of mind-affecting spells that specifically work against undead (and only undead) and one that sorta takes the majority of Enchantment, Illusion, Abjuration and Transmutation. So far it's worked pretty well.

[Amphetryon]

It is in Proper English. It merely has an ambiguous term(quite common in Proper English since even "Proper English" is one such term).



Question: What are some good Tier 3 classes/class combos to represent Priests(since most Divine casters are Tier 1-2).

Shugenja seems a practically ideal way to answer your question out of the gate, though certain choices could accidentally make it play much closer to T4.

[atemu1234]

If there are no real T3 casters, just cut out magic entirely. No spell-likes or supernatural abilities either.

The only T3 caster I can think of is Healer..

[eggynack]

The only T3 caster I can think of is Healer..
The beguiler, dread necromancer, bard, and kinda the factotum are all tier three casters.

[rockdeworld]

The only T3 caster I can think of is Healer..
The unmodified Healer is tier 5, not tier 3.

Tier 3 castors are: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Bard, Binder (without the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, and Psychic Warrior (for varying definitions of "caster").

Warmage tier 4, but viable.

To address the OP: it depends what you mean by "best". Simplest: No tier 1 casters. I think the best way is to look at your group's individual optimization levels and selectively prune the things that make your game degenerate. If your party is made up of people that can always do something in every situation you throw at them, they're basically all tier 3 already. If a player outclasses the rest, or falls behind the rest and doesn't like it, work with that one player to get them on the level of the rest of the group. I think that's better than any broad rule changes.

Or you could play Legend.

[eggynack]

The unmodified Healer is tier 5, not tier 3.

As I noted, I rather disagree with the designation on the basis of sanctified spells. When you account for the versatility of those, taken from both the book of exalted deeds and champions of valor, you get a power boost that places the class on the border between three and four. The situation gets even better if you also use corrupt spells, because those are technically usable on a good caster.

[Amphetryon]

As I noted, I rather disagree with the designation on the basis of sanctified spells. When you account for the versatility of those, taken from both the book of exalted deeds and champions of valor, you get a power boost that places the class on the border between three and four. The situation gets even better if you also use corrupt spells, because those are technically usable on a good caster.

Is it your position that these spells boost Healer to a greater degree than other Classes that have access to them?

[eggynack]

Is it your position that these spells boost Healer to a greater degree than other Classes that have access to them?
Definitely. The only classes that have them are prepared casters, and as far as I'm aware, the list of prepared casters is basically just a bunch of high tier classes and the healer. For high tier classes, the utility gained tends to be in the forms of better versions of things they can do anyway, or in a best case scenario, a new thing that's just another in the massive list of ways to spend your spell slots. For the healer though, many of these spells are strict utility additions, like giving magic to a commoner. When you add hammer of righteousness to a wizard, you're just getting an occasional replacement for fireball, but when you add it to a healer, that's your first blasting spell. When you toss vision of punishment on a cleric, it's lost in a sea of debuffs, but on a healer, it's the only spell that does anything close. When a druid gets luminous armor, it's a way to replace barkskin and beef up existing wild shape defenses, but on a healer, you've just become a caster capable of using magic to boost AC. What is a decent boost for other prepared casters is whole new worlds opening up for a healer.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The first step is to break the high-tier casters down into fixed-list classes, in the vein of the Warmage or Beguiler. Not-- and this is important-- simply by saying "only spells from one school," but with actual, custom-built spell lists with limited ability to expand. Something like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?317861-Fixed-List-Caster-Project-%283-5%29&p=16545265#post16545265), in other words.

Beyond that... You can go farther down the homebrew path and look for homebrew fixes for your favorite classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?236469-Commonly-Corrected-Classes-Compendium), but there are plenty of interesting non-caster options in the T3/T4 range: ToB classes, meldshapers, binders, factotums, wildshape rangers, psychic warriors, even psions with a few careful bans*.

If you want to stick to published material...

Wizard

Beguiler
Dread Necromancer
Warmage
Psion/Wilder (with problem powers and tricks removed*)
Warlock (with a few more invocations known and iterative eldrich blast attacks)

Cleric

Ardent (with problem powers and tricks removed*)
Adept (with way more spells/day- say Duskblade numbers)
Binder (with appropriate fluff modifications)

Druid

Mystic Wildshape Ranger (perhaps use Duskblade progression for when he gets new spell levels, though)
Totemist

Artificer

Warlock (with a few more invocations known and iterative eldrich blast attacks)
Binder (with the right vestiges)


And on the weak side,

Fighter

Warblade

Monk

Swordsage
Psychic Warrior
Incarnate

Rogue

Swordsage
Psychic Rogue (with sneak attack boosted back to full)

Paladin

Crusader



*Psionics is so much more limited than magic that this is easily doable.

[gooddragon1]

Can you rephrase the question in Proper English?


What tend to be the best way of removing T1 and T2 classes from the game without completely neutering it?

What is usually considered the most optimal way to take out tier 1 and 2 classes from the game without making it completely bland? Should such classes be stripped of some spell casting? Removed entirely? Other possibilities?

That's at least what I understood it as anyways.

[Rhyltran]

What is usually considered the most optimal way to take out tier 1 and 2 classes from the game without making it completely bland? Should such classes be stripped of some spell casting? Removed entirely? Other possibilities?

That's at least what I understood it as anyways.

Mind you I don't ban any classes but to be honest there's enough classes in 3.5 that I don't think it'd make the game bland. Even if you remove them completely by simply filling the role with other existing classes I don't think it changes too much.

[ben-zayb]

Wouldn't the answer to that be a Divine Bard?:smalltongue:True, at least for the RL usage of the term "priest". For the more RPG-esque version, Crusader for the zealot-types and Unarmed-variant Swordsage for the monk-types would be the closest T3 classes.

[ZamielVanWeber]

What is usually considered the most optimal way to take out tier 1 and 2 classes from the game without making it completely bland? Should such classes be stripped of some spell casting? Removed entirely? Other possibilities?

That's at least what I understood it as anyways.

It seemed clearly to be that to me.

OP: you don't need to do anything. T3-T4 is covered in fun classes with a good chance of being consistently effective. Your players may need some guidance if they used to play T1 and T2 classes, but other than that it should work perfectly.

[Ruethgar]

However, beware some abilities, usually available from best tiers only, may be lacking for a given campaign. Group fly, teleport...

Martial Monk early entry into Jaunter gets you teleport and plane shift. Flight is tricky, but if worst comes to worst, grafts are a thing.

Edit: Or mounts, going the old fashion way for maneuverability.

[Frosty]

What about the Favored Soul? Are they T3?

As for the paladin, if we're going into non-WOTC category, you don't really need to replace it with the Crusader. The crusader can be a great addition on its own, but just use the Pathfinder paladin instead as it is solid T4.

[eggynack]

What about the Favored Soul? Are they T3?
Nah, tier two. Cleric list is pretty great, after all.

[Troacctid]

The best way to remove T1 and T2 classes from the game without completely neutering them is to ban all spells above a certain spell level. For example, in my games, spells above 6th level are banned. (Well, okay, they're considered epic, but I've never had a game make it to epic levels, so they're effectively banned.)

6th level spells are still pretty powerful, so maybe you'd ban spells above 4th or 5th level to squeeze the casters a little tighter. (I mostly picked 6th to allow Shadowcasters to complete their second-tier paths.) Either way, once you cut off the casters from their late-game scaling, they're much less likely to unbalance things.