What is a "damage roll"?

[rrwoods]

What is the definition of a "damage roll" in D&D 3.5?

I'm interested in general, in terms of setting a precedent as to what this term means when I encounter it in rules text. As an example, though, the specific interaction I'm wondering about is this: A swordsage 12 chooses Shadow Hand for their discipline focus (insightful strike) class feature. Does he get the discipline focus (insightful strike) bonus when determining damage for the maneuver shadow noose (which doesn't involve a weapon)? (Yes, I realize this question is pretty academic, as such a bonus is going to be most likely dwarfed by the dice. Still want to know.)

[Venger]

What is the definition of a "damage roll" in D&D 3.5?

I'm interested in general, in terms of setting a precedent as to what this term means when I encounter it in rules text. As an example, though, the specific interaction I'm wondering about is this: A swordsage 12 chooses Shadow Hand for their discipline focus (insightful strike) class feature. Does he get the discipline focus (insightful strike) bonus when determining damage for the maneuver shadow noose (which doesn't involve a weapon)? (Yes, I realize this question is pretty academic, as such a bonus is going to be most likely dwarfed by the dice. Still want to know.)

damage roll doesn't just mean weapon attacks. it also applies to things made through spells or maneuvers. you do get your wis to damage in this scenario.

[rrwoods]

damage roll doesn't just mean weapon attacks. it also applies to things made through spells or maneuvers. you do get your wis to damage in this scenario.
So, then, is a "damage roll" any roll made to determine an amount of damage?

[Venger]

So, then, is a "damage roll" any roll made to determine an amount of damage?

that is correct. when you roll to determine hit point damage (for example, with a sword strike, a spell like scorching ray, or a strike like shadow noose) it's a damage roll.

while certain effects deal ability damage (such as ray of stupidity) you do not add your insightful strike onto the damage you deal. if you were a swordsage/wizard, speccing for entry to jpm and cast that spell, you'd just deal 1d4+1 int damage, not 1d4+1+wis.

if you were in assassin's stance (or had precision damage some other way) then you do get that added on as negative energy damage when you do weaponlike spell (read: a spell that has an attack roll, which is going to mostly mean rays)

hope that clears things up.

[rrwoods]

That's very helpful, thanks.

Slightly de-railing for another question...

if you were in assassin's stance (or had precision damage some other way) then you do get that added on as negative energy damage when you do weaponlike spell (read: a spell that has an attack roll, which is going to mostly mean rays)
...I've heard this said a lot on these boards and I've never seen it contradicted, so I'm sure it's true. But what's the source? Sneak attack doesn't say it (at least not in the Rogue class text on the SRD).

[ExLibrisMortis]

Complete Arcane, chapter 4: Spells and Incantations, first subheader: Weaponlike Spells, page 85.


Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage functions as a weapon in certain respects, whether the spell deals normal hit point damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, or energy drain. Such spells can threaten critical hits, can be used in sneak attacks, and can be used with favored enemy damage bonuses.

[Zanos]

while certain effects deal ability damage (such as ray of stupidity) you do not add your insightful strike onto the damage you deal. if you were a swordsage/wizard, speccing for entry to jpm and cast that spell, you'd just deal 1d4+1 int damage, not 1d4+1+wis. .
While there is a provision for negative energy damage from SA, I'm not aware of any provision that prevents you from adding bonuses to general damage rolls to ability damage rolls.

[Venger]

While there is a provision for negative energy damage from SA, I'm not aware of any provision that prevents you from adding bonuses to general damage rolls to ability damage rolls.

while you're not wrong, it's mostly just under the purview of gentleman's agreement. adding wis to ray of stupidity is... a bit much.

[Renen]

So, then, is a "damage roll" any roll made to determine an amount of damage?

Just as it says on the tin :D

[StreamOfTheSky]

Just as it says on the tin :D

Worth noting there are at least two types of damage rolls in D&D. Maybe more, but these are the only ones I know of.

The one you usually refer to when you say "damage roll" and far FAR more common is for attacks/spells/effects that deal hit point damage.

There is also ability damage. In some cases, it can be a bonus damage added to hp damage, like poison on a weapon or bite, that just happens to do another kind of damage entirely. Other times it is the prime/only source of damage for an attack, like a Roper's Weakness attack, that deals 2d8 str damage (save for half), and nothing else. If such a damage source is weapon-like (needs and attack roll; can auto-hit and auto-miss) and primary...like with the Roper...it can critical hit for double damage. In this case double strength damage.
If it were an additional damage source, like poison on a weapon that deals 1d6 Con, it would not multiply on a critical hit.