5th Edition and Healers?

[Krigsmjöd]

Hey guys!

I've been a member here for about 5 years and a reader for longer, but I never really post anything.

I come to you all with a question.

One of my friends is starting a 5th edition game soon, (which will actually take place in my canon homebrew world, but far in the past as I have a very, very low magic world, and this game will take place back when magic still existed, if that makes sense....my current game is NOT 5th edition, just for context).

None of us have any experience whatsoever in running 5th edition games but we've all been playing D&D for over a decade or more each, and I have been reading over the books pretty carefully as I plan my character, but if I could have the input from someone with experience with the new system, that would be great because a book can only give you so much insight into a system.

I am really interested in playing a Paladin, specifically, a Paladin of Devotion / White Knight, who focuses on defense and healing. However, as it currently stands, the party lacks a healer. I have read that magic items are not buyable in this system, so I ask, can a party survive with only a Paladin as the healer? One other player wants to be a Druid, and another wants to be a Fighter. Or am I better off rolling a cleric of the Life Domain? I would strongly prefer a paladin for my character concept, (I am leaning towards a Gold Dragon blooded Dragonborn with the Noble background who is the most reluctant paladin of all time and feels forced into the position by his heritage and bloodline but is something of a good hearted, anti-establishment rebel), but I could deviate from this and play a cleric if you guys genuinely think that 5th edition novices could NOT survive without a cleric.

If this has already been answered in another thread, please just point me in that direction, I did a search before posting this and could not find anything.

Thanks everyone in advance for any insight offered!

[Demonic Spoon]

Short-rest-based hit die provide a large amount of out-of-combat healing. I personally added a houserule use for Medicine to speed up nonmagical healing, but with a paladin emphasizing healing and a druid, you should be fine.

[GiantOctopodes]

You can survive very well with no healers at all. Having a Druid and a Paladin is more than adequate. I nonetheless strongly recommend picking up the "Healer" feat, as it has several benefits (picks someone up into positive HP, healing at marginal cost usable once per short rest, etc) which allow you to provide very effective healing without the expenditure of spell slots. If people need healing beyond what that and short rests can provide, I think you will find that paladins are absolutely adequate to the task, you're just trading damage and other effects in order to do so, since spell slots are greatly reduced from previous editions.

Good luck and have fun!

[Sigreid]

With the druid and the healer, if the druid selects either healing word or cure wounds as one of their spell slots for emergency you will have between you all the healing you need. My party is running with a druid and a ranger as the ones with healing magic and we do fine.

It would be good if someone would take a background that will allow proficiency with thieves tools though.

[Psikerlord]

Your party will be perfectly fine. You can get away with no healer class at all in 5e with short rest HD healing and the healer feat (unless you use the "slow healing" option from DMG.... in which case, things will be more complicated/need to be more careful/buy some healing potions!, but probably still doable).

But a druid is a full healer, and a paladin is a half healer - you're golden.

[Kurt Kurageous]

The following is my opinion. I've been playing/DMing 5e just for the last few months (April to June 2015). I cannot compare 5e to anything other than original AD&D (circa 1980). My response is focused on level 1-4 parties.

I agree in general with what's already posted here.

Bottom line is a low level party without a cleric/druid with Word of Healing must forgo an attack to heal someone. In low level 5e combat, every action/attack counts because you only get one.

At low level, a Paladin/Druid alone is probably not enough to support nearly consecutive combats. Yes, expending hit dice and a fighter's second wind helps, but given you don't get to add a constitution bonus to the roll, you probably won't get back to full HP. The paladin's five hit points per level is not enough. They are often the one who need the healing.

A PC with the heal feat is nearly the solution. That feat gets you a d6+4+patient's number of hit dice for each PC once per rest, so it is effectively a free "cure more than light wounds."

So what do you really need? Healing Word. Healing Word is druid/cleric 1st level spell that casts as a bonus action. This means you don't have to stop swinging/shooting/spelling at the enemy who KOed your comrade. Healing Word allows a 1st level cleric/druid to "dead cat bounce" a downed PC from range back to maybe 8-12 HP and back into the fight in the same round they were downed.

Later on, Revivify (3rd level spell attained at 5th level) is pretty useful if you are carrying around a big diamond. It is a short-fused (only one minute after they died) Raise Dead.

The Cleric life domain essentially nets you 2 more HP per spell plus the spell's level, so generally speaking 3-5 more hits. That's great early on, but less so later on when the demand for HP is in the 10's not 1's. What it does is make the spells produce more predictable. When you cast Cure Light and roll d8 and you add 7 up to seven (2 for domain, one for level, 4 for wiz 18), as opposed to a d8. The aforementioned Healing Word (bonus action) is a d4 that gets the same +7 max. The channel divinity preserve life is essentially a long range lay on hands of 5 HP/level with a catch, the patient must be below 50%

I hope this helped, or I hope it gets a bunch of critique so I can see how I'm doing things wrong. Either way, someone's gonna come out a better player/DM for it.

[zinycor]

I think that you are set tovgo with a paladin and a druid.

that should be enough

[Zevox]

Honestly, even the Druid alone would probably be plenty. My current party has only a Druid for healing magic and is fairly unoptimized, and we're doing fine. Just have him prepare Cure Wounds and Healing Word and you're set. At low levels you can probably get by on just Healing Word alone, even, if he really wants to prepare another spell.

[Flashy]

I've had multiple 5e parties that did just fine with only a paladin for healing.

[Ashrym]

You don't need any healers at all, just emergency healing sometimes. Basic healing potions are on the standard equipment list, the healer feat, and the inspiring leader feat do well as potential options working with hit dice on short rests.

Most healing takes place outside of combat.

A paladin has lay on hands at first level. Clerics, druids, and bards only have 2 spell slots and don't normally spend them both on healing spells while lay on hands can be the equivalent of one healing spell or be used for curing disease / poison before those other classes have the option. Between class abilities and spells, paladins already count as healers.

Any cleric, druid, or bard who took healing spells is also a good healer. Lore bards focused on healing are very good at it. The benefit those 3 classes have is access to the healing word spell, useful because it has range and casts on a bonus action. Your group already has one of those 3 classes so a cleric wouldn't necessarily be better as long as the druid does some healing (clerics don't necessarily spend slots on healing either).

The druid has the advantage of having the goodberry spell, and if the player goes land circle also has natural renewal for more spell slots than bards or clerics. Going moon circle still allows self healing and a low-level hp meatbag but the AC can let them go fairly fast; IE situational.

Goodberry can be cast the prior day and has a duration to take them with the party for the day.

The fighter has second wind per short rest, and it heals similarly to cure wounds so given 2 short rests for 3 second winds he already provides more self healing than a first level bard, cleric, or druid. They are pretty self-sufficient with dedicated self-healing at low levels in that regard.

Your group already has plenty of healing with 2 strong healing classes. The cleric importance is an outdated concept.

[zinycor]

The cleric importance is an outdated concept.

I would say that the Healer importance is outdated... Clerics still rock!! (Sorry am a cleric fanboy xD)

[Ashrym]

I would say that the Healer importance is outdated... Clerics still rock!! (Sorry am a cleric fanboy xD)

Let me rephrase: The importance of a cleric as a requirement for a healer is outdated. (It has been for some time, tbh ;) )

[PoeticDwarf]

Hey guys!

I've been a member here for about 5 years and a reader for longer, but I never really post anything.

I come to you all with a question.

One of my friends is starting a 5th edition game soon, (which will actually take place in my canon homebrew world, but far in the past as I have a very, very low magic world, and this game will take place back when magic still existed, if that makes sense....my current game is NOT 5th edition, just for context).

None of us have any experience whatsoever in running 5th edition games but we've all been playing D&D for over a decade or more each, and I have been reading over the books pretty carefully as I plan my character, but if I could have the input from someone with experience with the new system, that would be great because a book can only give you so much insight into a system.

I am really interested in playing a Paladin, specifically, a Paladin of Devotion / White Knight, who focuses on defense and healing. However, as it currently stands, the party lacks a healer. I have read that magic items are not buyable in this system, so I ask, can a party survive with only a Paladin as the healer? One other player wants to be a Druid, and another wants to be a Fighter. Or am I better off rolling a cleric of the Life Domain? I would strongly prefer a paladin for my character concept, (I am leaning towards a Gold Dragon blooded Dragonborn with the Noble background who is the most reluctant paladin of all time and feels forced into the position by his heritage and bloodline but is something of a good hearted, anti-establishment rebel), but I could deviate from this and play a cleric if you guys genuinely think that 5th edition novices could NOT survive without a cleric.

If this has already been answered in another thread, please just point me in that direction, I did a search before posting this and could not find anything.

Thanks everyone in advance for any insight offered!

You can easily survive without real healers.
They only other healers are bard, cleric and druid. But you don't really need them. My party doesn't have one of those three.

[ProphetSword]

I have read that magic items are not buyable in this system

While this is true, the one item that is buyable is the healing potion, which appears in the PHB equipment list. At low levels, it goes a long way.

[Krigsmjöd]

Thank you all so much! This is certainly a departure from the 3.5 system I've grown used to but I feel like the changes they made in this edition are great.

Funny story, I was a huge Barnes and Noble in South Burlington, VT, and they had a REALLY large fantasy / sci fi section with a gaming sub-section, and they had dozens of D&D books from the reprinted AD&D books through 5th edition, and for one of the first times ever I skimmed through the AD&D PHB, and I totally see some similarities between some aspects of AD&D with 5th edition. I really like the idea of the sub-classes, (I mean there's effectively a Cthulhu warlock).

And just to clarify, we will have 5 players in the party, but two of the players still are waiting for their books to arrive from Amazon so they know zero about the system, (not that I know much more at this point either).

Thanks again everyone! I appreciate everyone's input.

[Demonic Spoon]

And just to clarify, we will have 5 players in the party, but two of the players still are waiting for their books to arrive from Amazon so they know zero about the system, (not that I know much more at this point either).


Point them to the free basic rules (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/basicrules)

[Kurt Kurageous]

[QUOTE=Krigsmjöd;19485567]so they know zero about the system, (not that I know much more at this point either).

QUOTE]

May I presume you are impatient to just get started? You can make basic 5e characters now using this guy's page. It's about 99% accurate. it's not mine. Those facts are correlated.

http://www.pathguy.com/ddnext.htm

[LuisDantas]

At low level, a Paladin/Druid alone is probably not enough to support nearly consecutive combats. Yes, expending hit dice and a fighter's second wind helps, but given you don't get to add a constitution bonus to the roll, you probably won't get back to full HP. The paladin's five hit points per level is not enough. They are often the one who need the healing.

Cure Wounds heals more than Healing Word (albeit at touch range only) and is available for Paladins and Rangers at character level 2, isn't it? And for Bards, Clerics and Druids at level 1. It also scales nicely as spell levels become available.

For that matter, at level 2 Bards get Song of Rest and Clerics of the Life Domain get some nice bonuses for healing as well.

I'm not quite certain what happens with the temporary hit points granted by Heroism when the effect passes (is the damage applied to them first, or rather to the natural hit points? I don't know) but it may be helpful as well. It is a Bard/Paladin Level 1 spell.

[Naanomi]

I love playing a healer archetype; and have been sad the last few editions that it has been difficult to make one that could be doing better things. I am very satisfied with this edition's Life Cleric giving me a 'real healer' role that isn't totally wasting actions for healing in combat but also serves other rolls well (best secondary tank, decent utility spell caster)

[GiantOctopodes]

Cure Wounds heals more than Healing Word (albeit at touch range only) and is available for Paladins and Rangers at character level 2, isn't it? And for Bards, Clerics and Druids at level 1. It also scales nicely as spell levels become available.

For that matter, at level 2 Bards get Song of Rest and Clerics of the Life Domain get some nice bonuses for healing as well.

I'm not quite certain what happens with the temporary hit points granted by Heroism when the effect passes (is the damage applied to them first, or rather to the natural hit points? I don't know) but it may be helpful as well. It is a Bard/Paladin Level 1 spell.

Cure wounds is almost never worth using. Sure, it cures more than Healing Word, but as indicated, it's at touch range only, it uses an action (thus denying the use of the action for other things) and based on the fact that you can't have negative HP, if you're near 0 HP, the difference may not actually matter, unless it turns 1 hit into 2, for example. In terms of use of a spell slot and use of an action, compare Cure Wound's 1d8+Mod healing to Guiding Bolt's 3d6+mod damage plus a rider (advantage). If casting Cure Wounds at above 3rd level, where it starts to close the gap due to better scaling with Guiding Bolt, compare to Spirit Guardians, which is an AOE effect with a half movement speed rider dealing the same damage *each round* to each creature in the area of effect that Cure Wounds heals to a single target, once.

If out of combat, Short Rests, the Healer Feat, Song of Rest, and so on all provide whole party healing without using spell slots. So overall, Cure Wounds is just a terribly inefficient use of magic, and unless the Cleric in question had way more magic than he was planning on using (you're walking into the BBEG fight and he has way more slots than the number of rounds you expect the fight to last), short rests are not possible at that time, *and* someone is significantly reduced in HP, in my opinion you will always have a better use of those spell slots rather than with Cure Wounds.

The other exception is if you're facing enemies with unusually high HP and unusually low damage, where the equivalent use of other magics is not going to cause a substantial reduction in the HP of the targets, but the curative power of the spell represents several rounds worth of their efforts at damaging you. However, most monsters in the MM are low HP, high damage, so that is unlikely to be the case.

[Jermz]

I'll chime in and say that healers are probably good to have, but if you don't, it's mainly up to the DM to adjudicate short rest periods.

Our party is small - Rogue 3, Bard 3, Fighter 3 and for the most part, we manage to get buy on short rests when possible. We're running Hoard of the Dragon Queen and so far we've been doing OK, except for one part.

The cave with the hatchlings in the third act his us pretty hard, and we barely managed to get out with our lives. The fighter was down to 1 HP and would have died if he wasn't a half-orc, and I was also down to single digits. The bard wasn't hit much, as he was fooling around with invisibility, but he was tapped out of spells and starting to get frazzled. Luckily, a few persuasion checks managed to get us out of danger right at the exit.

[Sigreid]

On the no magic shops thing, that's still up to the GM. Over the years they got a lot of feedback about the Monty Hall, keep up with the Joneses magic everywhere style D&D had become where anyone could get anything they wanted for a price and designed this system to support lower magic campaigns. There's very little in the MM that requires magic as the only way to win.

That being said, a DM can run a campaign any way they want. They just have to remember to make things a little tougher based on the magic available to the players. There is nothing that stops a DM from using 3.5 or another edition as a pricing reference and having magic shops on more corners than 7-11. The way I see it, they facilitated multiple play-styles instead of requiring one high magic style that bothered a significant number of players.

[Ashrym]

Cure Wounds heals more than Healing Word (albeit at touch range only) and is available for Paladins and Rangers at character level 2, isn't it? And for Bards, Clerics and Druids at level 1. It also scales nicely as spell levels become available.

For that matter, at level 2 Bards get Song of Rest and Clerics of the Life Domain get some nice bonuses for healing as well.

I'm not quite certain what happens with the temporary hit points granted by Heroism when the effect passes (is the damage applied to them first, or rather to the natural hit points? I don't know) but it may be helpful as well. It is a Bard/Paladin Level 1 spell.

The small amount of healing cure wounds gives over healing word generally isn't worth spending the action over the bonus action and often also needing to move. It's only 2 hp avg. Cure wounds does scale better in higher slots but generally higher slots use better healing spells already.

Cure wounds is what might be used situationally but usually it's not the better option and I don't learn or prepare it. It's what is available for rangers and paladins, however, so they are still going to possibly use it.

Heroism is a great spell at low levels. The spell specifies any remaining thp are lost when it ends, for clarification, but in the same slot as healing word or cure wounds it prevents more damage than would have been healed if used 2 or 3 rounds. 3 rounds of used thp makes it more than worth it over those 2 spells plus frightened immunity. It's a nice spell for bards and paladins because they keep the action and bonus action using it, and it scales multiple targets in higher slots to simulate early group healing.

A bard using heroism can use his action for vicious mockery (damage prevention) and keep his bonus action for inspiration or healing word while maintaining heroism with concentration. A lore bard can even have the reaction for cutting words, additionally. It's good action economy.

Heroism becomes hard to justify with the competition it gets in other concentration spells, but can remain situationally useful. I usually drop it for area healing on a bard healer at 6th level after picking up prayer of healing or aura of vitality via extra secrets.

[ImSAMazing]

Hey guys!

I've been a member here for about 5 years and a reader for longer, but I never really post anything.

I come to you all with a question.

One of my friends is starting a 5th edition game soon, (which will actually take place in my canon homebrew world, but far in the past as I have a very, very low magic world, and this game will take place back when magic still existed, if that makes sense....my current game is NOT 5th edition, just for context).

None of us have any experience whatsoever in running 5th edition games but we've all been playing D&D for over a decade or more each, and I have been reading over the books pretty carefully as I plan my character, but if I could have the input from someone with experience with the new system, that would be great because a book can only give you so much insight into a system.

I am really interested in playing a Paladin, specifically, a Paladin of Devotion / White Knight, who focuses on defense and healing. However, as it currently stands, the party lacks a healer. I have read that magic items are not buyable in this system, so I ask, can a party survive with only a Paladin as the healer? One other player wants to be a Druid, and another wants to be a Fighter. Or am I better off rolling a cleric of the Life Domain? I would strongly prefer a paladin for my character concept, (I am leaning towards a Gold Dragon blooded Dragonborn with the Noble background who is the most reluctant paladin of all time and feels forced into the position by his heritage and bloodline but is something of a good hearted, anti-establishment rebel), but I could deviate from this and play a cleric if you guys genuinely think that 5th edition novices could NOT survive without a cleric.

If this has already been answered in another thread, please just point me in that direction, I did a search before posting this and could not find anything.

Thanks everyone in advance for any insight offered!
Our party consists of a Monk, a Wizard, a Rogue and a Paladin, and it is going just fine. The Paladin is enough healer for a party.

[ruy343]

I'm DMing for a group that consists of a paladin, sorcerer, fighter/rogue, and rogue, and they're staying alive admirably. The Paladin chose the Oath of Ancestors and managed to get the revivify spell recently, which saved the party sorcerer recently.

Either they're extraordinarily lucky, or they're getting by just fine.

I'm also a player in another group that consists of a fighter, ranger, warlock, wizard, and rogue. We managed to get through our first level with only a few knockouts (never a TPK, thank you high AC for sword & board fighters). Seeing how close we brushed with death, I multiclassed my fighter to Cleric (War) just to have the option of heals. So far, we haven't needed them.

As long as each character is playing their roles, they'll do fine. Teamwork is key. The only times I've seen that healing was really needed were the times that players decided to do things on their own, or attempt something their character wasn't good at. Just play as a team, protecting each other and thinking your way through problems, and you'll probably be fine.