Big Daddy and Little Sister Style Characters

[TheMADMonk]

Ok so me and my Fiance are making two characters for a level 7 game. My character will be a Warforged based on Big Daddy and my fiance is gonna play a character based on the little sister, perhaps with a template to make her smaller.

I was thinking my build should be Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Dungeon Crasher 6 for my build, then go into Warforged Juggernaut from then on out.

Her I was thinking of making a Wizard with the Easy Bake Wizard style, the idea being that even without the bodyguard this girl can mess you up.

I thought of adding flaws to allow them to both have Toughness, Trollblooded, and Tireless to make them very hard to beat. Maybe even apply Jotunbrud for the Warforged to make him even more lethal.

Any advice? We can change the Wizard to something else so long as she maintains her usefulness.

[Venger]

that sounds like a decent enough setup (though in this system, it's going to be her protecting you more often than the other way around)

big daddy/little sister dynamic is largely roleplay-oriented more than anything else, so I'm not sure what you're looking for. are there any specific special powers you want your characters to have? you have to be human to use jotunbrud (and it doesn't make you count as +1 size for everything, just some stuff, so you're not missing much) tireless, to negate your vulnerability to sunlight, is popular, but by default, can't be taken by warforged (since they didn't exist back then) so just ask your DM first.

the more specific you can be, the better advice we can give you.

[TheMADMonk]

Jotunbrud is indeed human only, but so is Trollblooded and tireless is Faerun but we play in a non specific campaign So setting restrictions are lax.

Yes as a Wizard she would be more powerful, but basically Mr Bubbles (Bigdaddy) will be carrying her, standing in front of her when **** starts and basically making meat bags squished so she does not need to use her powers.

We just don't want her to be useless. Wizard might be a bit much, maybe a Sorcerer or something, I am not good at casters. We do not mind he rnot being god level at later levels just strong enough that when someone catches her alone they are in for a big surprise.

I was wondering what other feats I should take.
Also with Jotunbrud I could get Knockback.

[Venger]

Jotunbrud is indeed human only, but so is Trollblooded and tireless is Faerun but we play in a non specific campaign So setting restrictions are lax.

Yes as a Wizard she would be more powerful, but basically Mr Bubbles (Bigdaddy) will be carrying her, standing in front of her when **** starts and basically making meat bags squished so she does not need to use her powers.

We just don't want her to be useless. Wizard might be a bit much, maybe a Sorcerer or something, I am not good at casters. We do not mind he rnot being god level at later levels just strong enough that when someone catches her alone they are in for a big surprise.

I was wondering what other feats I should take.
Also with Jotunbrud I could get Knockback.

ok, see, you didn't specify, so I didn't know that. thanks for clearing that up. yeah, regional feats are the worst, part of why they were axed in the 3.5 update.

has your fiancee ever played a caster before? wizard is a ton of bookkeeping and is pretty tricky. while sorcerer is more limited (so there's less prep time in an individual game) it actually makes them a lot harder to play since spell selection is much more important.

you can't go wrong with shock trooper, basically a requirement for any decent ubercharger. dungeoncrasher gives you both prereqs, so that's nice.

how long do you think your game's gonna go? look at frenzied berserker and see if you like it. it's a good thematic fit for big daddies, when their floodlights turn red and they go into attack mode. if it's something you're interested in, maybe think about snagging some of the prereq feats to enter it later.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

For her character, have you considered a Dragonfire Inspiration bard?

[Venger]

For her character, have you considered a Dragonfire Inspiration bard?

that's a good idea. lower ceiling, but considerably higher floor, and easy to play out of the box, which, despite the name, ez bake wizard is not.

[arixe]

You could do phalanx fighter if your playing fighter and the smaller character could be an alchemist. Team work feats would be a must

[Story]

tireless, to negate your vulnerability to sunlight, is popular, but by default, can't be taken by warforged (since they didn't exist back then).

Tireless is a waste of a feat anyway. Just get the Heavy Legs graft.

[Venger]

Tireless is a waste of a feat anyway. Just get the Heavy Legs graft.

obviously.

does your DM allow grafts, TheMADMonk?

[Naez]

I've built this (though never got to use it) as a single character using an ubermount build with an Ape. it works rather well flavor wise as you essentially have a nearly useless actual PC but wind up with a companion that has more HD than anyone in the party and it can even take class levels given you can somehow make it intelligent (Exalted companion or celestial mount do this).

[Venger]

I've built this (though never got to use it) as a single character using an ubermount build with an Ape. it works rather well flavor wise as you essentially have a nearly useless actual PC but wind up with a companion that has more HD than anyone in the party and it can even take class levels given you can somehow make it intelligent (Exalted companion or celestial mount do this).

riding PCs is a proud tradition. it reminds me a lot of Ser Small (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19463460&postcount=17) back in tactical soldier's iron chef.

well, between caster and ubercharger, neither's really useless, per se

[DMVerdandi]

Dang... Sucks that this isn't pathfinder.
You could have easily made two Alchemists (One Chirugeon and one Rage Chemist) Maybe even gotten some decent firearms... Man.

Anyhow, Maybe instead of Dungeoncrasher, try a totemist? Maybe Barb1/Totemist6? In the next level after, you could qualify for Totem Rager PRC.
I suggested the totemist because of the way ADAM and Gene tonics kind of are. Anyhow, Totemist has some really decent stuff and If you know how to play or are willing to learn, it could be a lot funner than just a one hit wonder like 6 levels of fighter.







The suggestion for the little sister to be a bard could definitely work, but also, alternatively, Sorcerer, and prestige bard. That way you still get access to other wiz/sorc spells.
Maybe Battle sorcerer 4/Prestige Bard XX

[RoyVG]

Am I reading it right that you suggest taking Tireless for your own character because of Trollblooded? Warforged are immune to Fatigue and Exhaustion anyway so why take it? Toughness is also a very bad feat at level 7, Improved Toughness would give you twice the value already and is generally still not worth it, especially with so many d10 and d12 levels.

I saw a suggestion for Frenzied Berserker. Don't, for the love of gawd, if your Little sister is not prepared she will be the first to die.

I always consider 6 levels Dungeon Crasher to not really be worth it, 2 levels gives you more than enough, the extra damage is not really worth it taking another 4 more levels of Fighter. You generally want to get into WFJ as soon as possible. You will deal enough damage soon enough :smallwink:

If Tome of Battle is available, have a look at the Warblade or the Crusader and dip 1 or two levels before Juggernaut. Crusader makes you really harder to kill with a small delayed damage pool and gives some pretty decent in-combat healing and protection options, while Warblade gives some pretty decent abilities as well like double hits as a starnard action. The Charging Minotaur maneuver work really well with Dungeon Crasher and WFJuggernaut after you get Shock Trooper.

As for the Sister, Sorceror or Bard would be a decent job for a more supportive class without too much bookkeeping. You will need a reliable source of healing though, Cure X wounds don't work too well, especially after taking a number of WFJ levels, you need repair X damage to do the job, so take a wand of that with you. Crusader would fix that to some degree.

[gomipile]

I think at least a couple Tome of Battle maneuvers would be good to make the capabilities closer to a Bouncer Big Daddy. I'd want at least Mountain Hammer to allow the drill to, well, drill through things. Also, one or two Desert Wind mobility maneuvers to replicate the capabilities, if not the fluff, of the grappling hook.

Personally, I'd replace Fighter in your build entirely with Crusader or Warblade(probably Crusader to make the combat flow more like in the Bioshock Games, since the character doesn't have to think about maneuver recovery, it just happens.) If your heart is set on Dungeoncrasher and you're fine with these as once-per-encounter tricks, then just two feats for Martial Study.

[TheMADMonk]

Whirling Frenzy allows for an additional attack at the end of your full attack. Spirit Lion Totem allows for Pounce.
Dungeon Crasher at level 6 (6 levels of it) allows you to deal 8d6 +3xStr when running a foe into a solid surface with a bullrush.
Knockback allows you to trigger an additional bullrush when you use a power attack, which I believe you can do on a bullrush.

So you bullrush a foe into a wall and use power attack to add an additional 1.5x Str So that would be 8d6+3xStr+1.5xStr on a single hit, then Knockback triggers an additional bullrush and you do it again so another 8d6+3xStr+1.5xStr. Then you full attack thanks to Pounce, and because you would be BAB +7/+2 you get two attacks, but with Whirling Frenzy you get an additional attack so 3 attacks +7/+7/+2+Str on attacks and can power attack with each of them (I do not believe these would trigger knockback or else.. well 3 sets of an additional 8d6+3xStr+1.5xStr would be a bit much)

You are right I forgot Warforged were immune.
So it would be Toughness (Flaw Feat) Trollblooded (Flaw Feat)Adamantine Body (1rst Level) Improved Bullrush (Fighter) Power Attack (3rd) Knockback (Fighter) Shock Trooper (3rd) [I have no idea for the feats for levels 5,6, and 7 (5 and 7 being fighters)]

Can someone explain Dragonfire Inspiration Bard to me I never really followed that one.
I may go Crusader after DCF before going juggernaut. Though Trollblooded gives me regeneration 1 and at a high enough juggernaut level I am immune to non-lethals.

[Venger]

I saw a suggestion for Frenzied Berserker. Don't, for the love of gawd, if your Little sister is not prepared she will be the first to die.

what are you talking about? you don't take FB for the frenzy, go have your tantrum in a phone booth and tap yourself out for the day and then go out adventuring. FB is for better power attack.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

The Dragonfire Inspiration Bard optimizes the Inspire Courage class feature, then uses the Dragonfire Inspiration feat to replace the attack/damage bonuses with equivalent d6 energy damage. An Inspire Courage that would grant +3 attack/+3 damage would instead grant +3d6 fire (or cold or whatever) damage. In a party that makes lots of physical attacks, it's extremely good.

[TheMADMonk]

Ah ok, I remember seeing this somewhere didn't know where they where getting the extra d6s in damage.

Man with all those dice to roll I might have to resort to a dice roller lol

[KillianHawkeye]

"Big daddy" and "little sister"? Isn't that the sort of roleplaying that you're supposed to only do in private? :smallconfused:





I'm sorry... I'll show myself out now............ :smallwink:

[RoyVG]

Whirling Frenzy allows for an additional attack at the end of your full attack. Spirit Lion Totem allows for Pounce.
Dungeon Crasher at level 6 (6 levels of it) allows you to deal 8d6 +3xStr when running a foe into a solid surface with a bullrush.
Knockback allows you to trigger an additional bullrush when you use a power attack, which I believe you can do on a bullrush.

So you bullrush a foe into a wall and use power attack to add an additional 1.5x Str So that would be 8d6+3xStr+1.5xStr on a single hit, then Knockback triggers an additional bullrush and you do it again so another 8d6+3xStr+1.5xStr. Then you full attack thanks to Pounce, and because you would be BAB +7/+2 you get two attacks, but with Whirling Frenzy you get an additional attack so 3 attacks +7/+7/+2+Str on attacks and can power attack with each of them (I do not believe these would trigger knockback or else.. well 3 sets of an additional 8d6+3xStr+1.5xStr would be a bit much)
You cannot use power attack on a bullrush attempt by itself (because there is not attack roll) and when you charge you must forsake your attacks to do a bullrush instead. A bullrush replaces your attack under normal circumstances. Knockback however allows you to get a free bull rush attempt on a attack with at least X amount of Power Attack but don't forget that when you pounce, you may be unable to reach your opponent for the following attacks if the first bullrush is succesful. Naturally, you can choose which attacks have the free bullrush attempt, so just say only the last one has it. If the enemy is already standing against a wall, you can technically Pounce=>Bullrush him into the wall multiple times because he remains within reach and you have pounce.

Once you have a couple of levels in Warforged Juggernaut however you get Superior Bullrush which adds you Armor spikes as damage when succesfully bull rush (+DCF if applicable) and you can add Powerful Charge to your damage if you bullrush after a charge. There is still no attack roll though, so you can't add Power Attack that way. At this point you have 2 ways of doing a Bulrush; Charge=> Pounce+PA=>Knockback Bullrush, OR Charge=>Superior Bullrush. You could argue Superior bullrush also work with the Pounce-Knockback, but the only difference is adding you weapon damage instead of spike damage, you get your PA penalty to the bullrush attempt (x2 likely) and you don't move with your target.


So it would be Toughness (Flaw Feat) Trollblooded (Flaw Feat)Adamantine Body (1rst Level) Improved Bullrush (Fighter) Power Attack (3rd) Knockback (Fighter) Shock Trooper (3rd) [I have no idea for the feats for levels 5,6, and 7 (5 and 7 being fighters)]
Shock Trooper can only be taken at level 6, because it requires +6 BAB. Also Power attack must be taken before Imp Bull Rush, but that doesn't matter too much now. A good feat to consider later is Leap Attack, to increase the damage of Power attack. So it would Look like this: Flaws: Toughness, Trollblooded, 1st: Adamantine Body + Power attack, 3rd: Imp Bullrush, 6th: Shocktrooper + any feats for extra Fighter levels.
I'll just ask, why Toughness? 3 more hp is rubbish around that level, and as far as I know, you don't need it for prereqs or am I missing something? If you really want more HP, get Improved Toughness, it gets you double the HP.

[Never mind, Toughness is required for Troll-blooded. Well that sucks :(. You could ask your DM if Imp Toughness can be used instead, it won't break the game at all, your regeneration+immune to non-lethal have more potential to do that]


what are you talking about? you don't take FB for the frenzy, go have your tantrum in a phone booth and tap yourself out for the day and then go out adventuring. FB is for better power attack.
Fair enough. Loving the image though :smallbiggrin:

[Story]

Also, doesn't regeneration let you double dip healing on the Crusader's delayed damage pool? Not that an extra hp a round is that important, but it's worth keeping in mind.

[atemu1234]

Why not Warforged, then Warforged Juggernaut? Start with, say, a Half-Ogre or Half-Minotaur Warforged.

[Extra Anchovies]

Start with, say, a Half-Ogre or Half-Minotaur Warforged.

Neither of those can be applied to a Construct. You can't go the Incarnate Construct route because Half-Ogre and Half-Minotaur are inherited templates and Incarnate Construct is an acquired template, so the Half-X templates would have to be applied first.

Other than that, though, Warforged Juggernaut is a pretty good idea.

[atemu1234]

Neither of those can be applied to a Construct. You can't go the Incarnate Construct route because Half-Ogre and Half-Minotaur are inherited templates and Incarnate Construct is an acquired template, so the Half-X templates would have to be applied first.

Other than that, though, Warforged Juggernaut is a pretty good idea.

Living Construct subtype is not Construct type, IIRC.

[Extra Anchovies]

Living Construct subtype is not Construct type, IIRC.

You don't recall correctly, though :smalltongue:

Living Construct Subtype (Ex): Warforged are constructs with the living construct subtype.

[Spore]

As I don't know a bit about similar characters in 3.5, maybe have HER be an Pathfinder alchemist. This way there is a crunch reason why you protect her (you're bigger and alchemists are NOTHING without prebuffing). And there is a reason why you need her support (Fly extracts, Healing Extracts, maybe a healthy dose of "fluff medication" do keep the Warforged alive?).

[Endarire]

The build name alone seems appropriate:

The Big Guy Is With Me (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1000846)

[Th3N3xtGuy]

Have you thought little sister as a Psion but I like the idea of bard personally. I'd always imagine the little sister as a support type character. Anyways is there a Big Sister like rival in your background?

Just gave me a wonderful idea for a character concept.