Underdark

[arixe]

So I've always been fascinated with drowning and the under dark but unfortunately never owned or played any campaign involving those so are there any published 3.5 campaigns or pathfinder equivalent.

Also if any one has played them what are some of the pros and cons

[TheCrowing1432]

Pros

-??????


Cons
-Everything is awful and wants to kill you/eat you/enslave you. Sometimes all three.



There is really no reason to go into the underdark ever unless your campaign's Macguffin happens to be in there. Most parties that go there tend to die within the first encounter or two, unless they are heavilly optimized.

The underdark sucks.

[arixe]

Well sounds like I've made a horrible mistake but there has to be some good things. Mostly where's the fun if any.

[TheCrowing1432]

Well sounds like I've made a horrible mistake but there has to be some good things. Mostly where's the fun if any.

Really depends on what you mean by "fun"


Outside of drow/grey dwarves/illithid cities, theres nothing IN the underdark other then caves, darkness and caves, and darkness oh and did I mention? Caves and darkness.


I mean theres all sorts of interesting creatures that live there, unfortunately most of them are really good at hiding, are really hard to kill and dont carry treasure. So they are walking bags of exp at least.


Aside from the creatures and the caves there are the aforementioned cities.


The Drow/Illithid cities are pretty much kill on sight unless your party happens to be evil and the drow squad that was sent after you is feeling particularly merciful, but I wouldnt hold my breath.

Illthids on the other hand typically enslave other races in order for them to work on their elder brains. A long illthid might be persuaded to leave you alone, but a whole squad? Unlikely, unless again, your party is evil/has a good bargaining chip.


As far as Grey Dwarves go? Well yeah sure, they're evil, but they're also dwarves, much easier to persuade then drow or illithids, anything to do with treasure/riches will typically save your hide here.

Now is there any good races in the underdark? Well, the closest would be the Deep Gnomes, but they tend to be highly isolationist and distrustful of strangers, they tend to be a smattering of TN and NG so that might work in your partys favor if they are good.



If you DO insist on sending your party down there, heres a few tips.

Knowledge and Survival.


You need to know how to survive down there and navigate the deep winding labyrinth. Knowledge Nature/Dungeoneering/Geography/Architecture/Nature/Arcana are all incredibly important to know where you are and what you are fighting.

Food.

There is little to eat and to drink in the underdark unless you know where to find it, chances are your party will be surface folk with little knowledge of where the food and water is located in the underdark. So bring clerics with food creation spells, everfill canteens, infinite rations. Anything to keep starvation at bay.

Power.

The tier list exists for a reason, creatures from the underdark have high LA for a reason. They are powerful and if your DM plays their strengths correctly, they will hit your party hard and fast. You must respond with equal power. Dont bring Bob the fighter who took weapon focus longsword, hes gonna get cut down fast.

Bring Dan the wizard who used divination spells to predict the future so he knows whats coming and what spells to prepare. Bring Steven the Druid who can transform into a dragon when the going gets tough.

[arixe]

So sounds like a overrated overly complicated dungeon

[TheCrowing1432]

So sounds like a overrated overly complicated dungeon

It really is.


I mean it all comes down to your DMing ability. Descriptive language can make even the most mundane forest trail/desert dune sound interesting.

Sure the underdark is all caves and darkness, but with the right atmosphere it can prove to be a very cool adventure..............





.....up until the drow death squad pumps you full of sleep poison, takes your stuff and carts you back to Menzoberanzan to be sacrificed to Loth.

[arixe]

I see I'll save it for players I truly hate.

[jiriku]

I think maybe TheCrowing has had some bad experiences. :P

Underdark adventures can be great fun; many players enjoy getting deep into "hostile territory" and having to fight their way through. Offhand, I can remember the following published adventures in the Underdark:

Descent into the Depths of the Earth
Shrine of the Kuo-Toa
Vault of the Drow
Queen of the Demonweb Pits
City of the Spider Queen

Some are very old and all require at least a little conversion to suit your particular campaign, but they're great, great fun. These modules are considered classics for a very good reason.

[Crake]

I think the biggest thing most people have against the underdark is it being forced upon them. People who don't want to go to the underdark, but feel forced to for plot related reasons wont be having fun there. The few people who DO enjoy going there are free to do so of their own free will, but I share TheCrowing's opinion, the underdark is a really ****ty place, with very little roleplay potention short of masochists who enjoy roleplaying as drow slaves. It's great if you like playing murderhobos in caves, but that's about the extent to which I think it serves a purpose. One long, infinite dungeon crawl with little to no interesting NPCs to interact with? Yeah, no thanks.

Obviously that's entirely my opinion, but forcing a niche play experience in people (and from the sounds of it, it's VERY niche) is not a good way to get people to want to play with you again. This is only made worse if you're not a great DM. Obviously I'm projecting here, I'm sure you wouldn't do that and that you're a great DM, but my experiences with the underdark have been pretty bad. Even in games like neverwinter nights and baldurs gate, I've always found the underdark boring and dreary.

[arixe]

Interesting the dm i started with kind of for lack of a better word romanticized drow. Honestly lolth is one of my favorite gods for the shere corruption factor. Making pcs evil is the best. Like if my players went into the under dark and got consummed by it one way or another id totally use them as villans in the future. But yeah main thing that got me interested was the uniqueness of the underdark

[Crake]

Interesting the dm i started with kind of for lack of a better word romanticized drow. Honestly lolth is one of my favorite gods for the shere corruption factor. Making pcs evil is the best. Like if my players went into the under dark and got consummed by it one way or another id totally use them as villans in the future. But yeah main thing that got me interested was the uniqueness of the underdark

I don't think I've ever read any literature that ever portrayed lolth as having any other relationship with non-drow than "kill, maim, rape, torture". She utterly despises anything not drow, and even amongst drow, they have to prove themselves worthy upon hitting 5th or 6th level to not be turned into a hideous spider monstrosity (driders). So as a goddess of corruption? I don't really see it to be honest. If you want corruption, any number of demon princes, or archdevils fit that bill so much better. I'm honestly of a very similar mind, having corrupted many players over my relatively short time as a DM, but I just don't see how lolth could possibly fit that bill while adhering to the existing literature surrounding her. For corrupting players, Graz'zt works great for power, Malcanthet for lust, Asmodeus for order and heirarchy, Orcus for necromancy, Zuggotmuy for dark nature-types, Demogorgon for psychopathic killer-types, Dagon for all your lovecraft needs and of course who can forget the catch-all Pazuzu for every other possible situation imaginable.

But yeah, if you want corruption of players, unless those players are drow (in which case, aren't they pretty much already there?) I don't see how lolth, who's default stance on non-drow is "I hate you, go die a horrible painful death" could really play the part of corruptor. I mean sure, you can run what you want, but if it's the corruption factor you're looking for then really if there's no interesting NPCs around for the corruption to take effect on (as is the case in the underdark), does it really have any meaning for a player to be "corrupted"? I could rant for hours on this topic to be honest, as corruption plays a huge role in my games, and it's a theme I love to explore. I have yet to fail to corrupt a player who I have set my sights on so far, some to rather beneficial, and others to quite horrible ends.

If you do look to play the corruptor kind of DM, you need to be able to do two things very well: Reward evil played well, and punish evil played poorly.

[arixe]

Sorry that was a scattered thought i ment the underdark is a good place for a corruption story and lolth is an interesting goddess

[Raezeman]

I'm DMing a group where the players encountered a friendly NPC who told them that she and her team was going to the underdark, to the drow city Erelhie-Cinlu to investigate what the drow are up to and do as much as sabotage possible. This mission was planned because the drow have been rather silent for a while and usually means they have some big bad evil plans. The group was to escort this person in exchange for information, and I made up this mission of hers to make the NPC feel like a real person in this world with real objectives, and not just a plothook device to get the group somewhere. The group however basically said: you know, we can sidequest a little and help these people out with their mission in the underdark. So, the group decided they wanted to go to the underdark, so now the next couple of sessions will have them in the underdark disrupting Drow plans and everything!

[Katana1515]

If you're group likes evil games (and my group can't get away from em), the underdark can be a very fun place! Scheming drow politics, espionage and intrigue are great story fodder, and their cities themselves are fascinating settings.

For a more traditional party? The underdark is the 'heart of darkness' the shadowy place where barely understood perils lurk yet great potential wealth or opportunities linger. It's usually best for a fun interval/story arc rather than a whole campaign, but a little imagination can get around this. Perhaps the characters are part of a large dwarf expedition to reclaim lost holdings, or are advance scouts for an avenging army trying to punish a Drow City for its foul crimes against surface dwellers.

[MyrPsychologist]

I love the creatures of the underdark. Mindflayers are some of the absolute coolest things to come out from D&D and their cities are very fascinating. I also happen to have a fascination with the concept of lost civilizations, ruins, and exploration. I even like a lot of the monsters in the underdark and find some to be truly interesting and unique.

That being said, I hate going into the underdark with one of the most intense passions. I'd rather play planar roulette than have an entire campaign set in the underdark. It would be boring drudgery where literally everything is unreasonable and wants to kill, eat, or enslave the party.

If you want to include this hellish place I'd say include it in small doses. You make brief excursions into the underdark for an item or to find something important. You don't stay.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

The Underdark simply isn't nuanced or varied enough to be interesting to me. When the default attitude of everything is Hostile, and the default alignment of 95% of the creatures is Evil, there's simply not a lot to do other than fight stuff.

There's an excellent critique of the first two Mass Effect games out there; I'd link but I can't find it. It focuses on one particular interaction in each game. In each, a guard approaches Shepherd with a demand that you surrender your weapons. In the first game, the two possible responses are >Yes and >No. In the second game, the two possible responses are >No and >Hell no. And, in the words of the writer, probably no one ever said yes in the first game. But without the ability to say yes, saying no is meaningless.

And that's why the Underdark mostly sucks.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Really, the Underdark needs just two more major races within it. It needs a good race and a neutral race. Or at least a city or something. It needs a place that can be base camp, a place where characters can have friendly encounters, a place where there can be bonds and affections and protectiveness, so players can feel shocked by betrayal, swear revenge, weep at a funeral... Hell, in reductive terms, a place where a plot hook can just be a plot hook, not a setup to likely betrayal. A place where a PC can talk to an NPC without being treated like poop. Diversity makes settings great.

So here's my question. Other than access to Underdark-specific creatures, what would you gain by setting a campaign in the Underdark versus setting it in Thay or Zhentarim Keep?

[Keltest]

Really, the Underdark needs just two more major races within it. It needs a good race and a neutral race. Or at least a city or something. It needs a place that can be base camp, a place where characters can have friendly encounters, a place where there can be bonds and affections and protectiveness, so players can feel shocked by betrayal, swear revenge, weep at a funeral... Hell, in reductive terms, a place where a plot hook can just be a plot hook, not a setup to likely betrayal. A place where a PC can talk to an NPC without being treated like poop. Diversity makes settings great.

So here's my question. Other than access to Underdark-specific creatures, what would you gain by setting a campaign in the Underdark versus setting it in Thay or Zhentarim Keep?

Dwarves and Svirfneblin. Two races that could reasonably be found that deep that wont try to kill you just for existing (unless youre a Drow, in which case you probably deserve it).

[Duke of Urrel]

I think I agree with the majority who say that the Underdark is an irredeemably dismal place unless the dungeon master really works to make it interesting.

I think a very strong argument can be made for the existence of less boring, less revolting, and above all less immediately deadly zones within the Underdark. Deep gnomes (svirfneblin) and deep hallfings have to live somewhere, and I would like them to know at least some comfort. Moreover, all those nasty races – the drow, derro, duergar, mind flayers, kuo-toa, &c. – need victims to prey upon, and they probably find it just as inconvenient to fetch them above ground as the surface dwellers find it to delve for treasure deep below ground. They should have some victims in their own neighborhood to grab – victims whom the PCs can play a role in rescuing. Sure, the deep gnomes and halflings are suspicious and isolationist when they meet the PCs for the first time, but I imagine they brighten up considerably after the PCs rescue some of them from slavery or worse.

There should be large zones of phosphorescent fungus where PCs don't have to blunder around blindly, but can see an eerie, cavernous landscape in all directions, like a starry night sky back up on the surface, only with stalactites hanging down from it. There should be pristine, even beautiful underground lakes filled with enough tasty blind fish to make the Gollum lick his lips.

And there should be treasure – really big, big treasure that makes all the long trudging through the dark worthwhile. I'm thinking about interplanar portals that open directly into gold, platinum, or diamond veins on the Elemental Plane of Earth.

[Inevitability]

As has been said before, the underdark contains many creatures that are found nowhere else. Maybe the PC's run a small company that gathers body parts of those creatures for use in magical items or as spell components? While it would be a risky job, the rewards would be great too.

At first, they are exploring nothing but a few fungi-infested caves that could barely be considered 'underdark', but as time passes and they level up more and more, they start to fight Carrion Crawlers, Hook Horrors and even aberrations like Aboleths and Mind Flayers.

Some quests might veil something bigger behind them. For example, that random wizard who asked for as many Neothelid hearts as possible? He was a thrall to a mind flayer cabal who wishes those they see as blemishes on the superior race of mind flayers exterminated.

[Oryan77]

I would ignore all these naysayers if you really want to run a game in the underdark. Honestly, I'm surprised by the responses so far. Sounds like nothing more than a bunch of narrow minded critiques and not very helpful to you at all.

You can do whatever you want to do with the underdark and the drow. For one, the drow are definitely not just a single minded hive mind race. They each still have their own goals and personalities regardless of being CN alignment. So, what is being said so far is absolutely not true unless all you do is play them as chaotic stupid. Part of the fun for a DM is getting the chance to toy with the PCs, and what better way to do that than using the drow. Jarlaxle is a great example of a drow that works with other races for his own evil intentions.

Also, not all drow cities kill visitors on sight. The Vault of the Drow details specific areas within the city where visitors are allowed to go as long as they have passes. Besides, if this is an issue, make up a drow city that is more tolerant of other races.

City of the Spider queen is an underdark adventure. It is mostly hack-n-slash, but there are lots of scenarios in there that provide roleplaying opportunities. It depends on the group playing. If they only see the underdark as a place to swing a sword, then that is what it will appear to be. One memorable encounter that I had in that adventure was with a tribe of Stone Giants in the underdark. It was all roleplaying and I never unsheathed my sword.

As DM, I ran Dead Gods (2e Planescape converted to 3.5e) and we spent many session in the underdark. I created an encounter with Myconids which became allies for the PCs. Later on, the Myconids showed up to assist the PCs in a large fight against a band of drow mercenaries.

As to the underdark just being a dark place? There is fungus that can light up caverns, there are lakes, I had an encounter in a mushroom forest, and there are real world photographs of spelunkers roaming around caverns filled with giant crystals (google it, it is spectacular). There is no reason a cavern with a giant crystal "forest" wouldn't exist in the underdark. Really, how is describing the underdark any worse than describing a trek through the woods or any other location? "There's a road, a bunch of trees, more trees, it's day time, now it's night time, oh, a rock, hey more trees!" The underdark is only bland if you want it to be bland and boring.

I say go for it.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Dwarves and Svirfneblin. Two races that could reasonably be found that deep that wont try to kill you just for existing (unless youre a Drow, in which case you probably deserve it).

In the default Forgotten Realms setting, neither of those races are as cosmopolitan as I'm thinking is necessary. But you're right, there are some options even if they aren't to my mind ideal. I kinda think adding a city that's like a mini-Sigil would really improve things.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I don't see why everyone is saying PCs will get ganked the second they step into a Drow city. Sure, if they are in the nicer areas that only nobles get to be in. But thats true of non-Noble Drow as well. The slums, where you'd like first enter a Drow City to begin with, has all kinds of non-Drow. With minimal effort, you'll look like some servants out in the market. If your high enough level, your just a mercanary just as well as any other non-Drow Mercenary. Until you start stirring up trouble, the Drow won't bother if your sticking to the slums. Plenty of opportunity there (though I admit it would not be a place I call a safe haven for the PCs).

The real difference between a Drow City and a surface city, as far as the PCs are concerned, is the areas they are unwelcome are bigger in Drow Cities.

[arixe]

Im starting to see the issue here underdark isnt very kick in the door friendly it punishes those who stir up trouble and rewards those with a silver tongue and a quick wit. And the bland ness of underground has never really bothered me. When i looked up the maps for the underdark it looks more like a country the a cave network

[jiriku]

I'm puzzled by those who claim a lack of roleplay opportunities. I have City of the Spider Queen open in front of me right now and nearly every zone that doesn't consist of mindless monsters has at least one NPC or faction that is expressly open to negotiating with surface-dwelling PCs. The module also includes a suggestion to run it with the PCs representing a competing drow faction or a group of other Underdark races, and notes places in which doing so would open up more roleplay options, or make existing options easier. Now, I can see how a kick-in-the-door style of play by the PCs or an all-evil-creatures-attack-on-sight mentality by the DM would shut off a lot of these roleplay opportunities, and people who aren't comfortable making deals with drow, duergar, and mind flayers might avoid doing so even when the opportunity is there... but... the opportunity is there.

[unseenmage]

Really, the Underdark needs just two more major races within it. It needs a good race and a neutral race. Or at least a city or something. It needs a place that can be base camp, a place where characters can have friendly encounters, a place where there can be bonds and affections and protectiveness, so players can feel shocked by betrayal, swear revenge, weep at a funeral... Hell, in reductive terms, a place where a plot hook can just be a plot hook, not a setup to likely betrayal. A place where a PC can talk to an NPC without being treated like poop. Diversity makes settings great.

So here's my question. Other than access to Underdark-specific creatures, what would you gain by setting a campaign in the Underdark versus setting it in Thay or Zhentarim Keep?

There is this book for 3.x D&D. I believe it's called the Underdark, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. It has these races in it... And a couple of them aren't even evil. Isolationist and Neutral to the point of being useless but not evil.

Gloamings are neutral (IIRC) and they glow like a torch. Again, IIRC, they're nomadic and splintered and don't do cities well. But they're not evil.
There's also a very deep city full of the descendants of an ancient race. They are also non-evil but they're also isolationist.

The last time a DM ran me through the Underdark it was on the underground equivalent of roads. Ran into some interesting characters and had some tense moments. Just like adventuring down a free road on the surface. Mind we stuck to the Upperdark (first 7 miles of depth) where things are relatively safe but the DM and I both knew what to expect if we went any deeper.

And also I poured a lake filled with a Sahuagin army down a chasm into the Lowerdark. Turns out water's pretty scarce down there in places and I upset quite a few economies down in the very deepest spots.


My advice, don't let a few naysayers OR a few fanboys (myself included) color your expectations. Read the Underdark book yourself and take from it what you can. That's what you're supposed to do with any campaign setting book IMHO.

[arixe]

Lol i see an oppertunity to do a funny culture studdy those who assume all drow are evil are unreasonable and attack them on sight as well as though those who go into the under dark to understand what makes it tick. Im not saying all drow will negotiate or there arnt mindless beasts that will try to attack on sight. But i bet the players that get ganked have a dm or a party member that assume all drow kill or enslave all non drow. Its a prejudiced issue with the player and dm not the race

[MyrPsychologist]

Im starting to see the issue here underdark isnt very kick in the door friendly it punishes those who stir up trouble and rewards those with a silver tongue and a quick wit. And the bland ness of underground has never really bothered me. When i looked up the maps for the underdark it looks more like a country the a cave network

No.

The Underdark is only about kick in the door styled things. You can't outwit and charm a drow slaving party. They aren't interested in your non-drow explanations. You are their source of money and power and they just want you. You can't reason with a mindflayer because it's goal is literally to consume your brain. etc for like almost everything in the Underdark.

It's a place that rewards stealth. You hide, you watch, you learn. Come unprepared to a fight and you WILL die. Get ambushed and you WILL die. It's a very cuthroat place where the only assumption you can safely make is that you are not safe. nothing will help you.

This is why it's bland. It's not that it's underground that makes it bland. It's that encountering NPCs will always roughly go the same. Watch them, figure out what they are, kill them. Repeat. Players don't really need to concern themselves with other avenues of approach because they're just encountering something that is automatically hostile and evil.

[MesiDoomstalker]

No.

The Underdark is only about kick in the door styled things. You can't outwit and charm a drow slaving party. They aren't interested in your non-drow explanations. You are their source of money and power and they just want you. You can't reason with a mindflayer because it's goal is literally to consume your brain. etc for like almost everything in the Underdark.

It's a place that rewards stealth. You hide, you watch, you learn. Come unprepared to a fight and you WILL die. Get ambushed and you WILL die. It's a very cuthroat place where the only assumption you can safely make is that you are not safe. nothing will help you.

This is why it's bland. It's not that it's underground that makes it bland. It's that encountering NPCs will always roughly go the same. Watch them, figure out what they are, kill them. Repeat. Players don't really need to concern themselves with other avenues of approach because they're just encountering something that is automatically hostile and evil.

Bolded part. You know who else attacks the PC's on sight? An Orc Slaving Party. Or a Hobgoblin Slaving Party. Or a Hill Giant Slaving Party. Slaving parties are not the only thing Drow do. You will find Drow merchant caravan's, servants, slaves themselves. If the race is of the Humanoid type, you will not find a culture of complete uniformity.

And even talking about Abberations like Mind Flayers, your being incredibly narrowminded in how games are run to think Mind Flayers will never consider talking to the PCs. Sure, its not exactly unlikely. But they are sentient creatures, they can make choices beyond their Alignment entry. A lone Mind Flayer, thrown from its convent, could seek help of the PCs to reduce its former convent for tossing it out. Or a convent at war with Drow and losing, taking any help it can get.

Underdark is as boring and one-dimensional as the DM running it.

[unseenmage]

...

Underdark Any campaign setting is as boring and one-dimensional as the DM running it.
Italicized and edited for emphasis.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Lol i see an oppertunity to do a funny culture studdy those who assume all drow are evil are unreasonable and attack them on sight as well as though those who go into the under dark to understand what makes it tick. Im not saying all drow will negotiate or there arnt mindless beasts that will try to attack on sight. But i bet the players that get ganked have a dm or a party member that assume all drow kill or enslave all non drow. Its a prejudiced issue with the player and dm not the race

Except the thing is that, over a sufficiently long time, yes, the Drow should be expected to attempt to kill or enslave all non-Drow. Maybe not right now, and maybe not even over the course of the campaign. But the culture of the race as written is that betrayal is inevitable.

[arixe]

This is might be true but theirs still oppertunity there if you can actually get a player to conect to a drow form a bond it makes that betrayal actually meaningful. It is s mostly the players fault if they just go around and kill anything that isnt a good race not all evil races are blood thirsty mindless killers. You can out wit them and use them and even redeem them you have a voice and roplay can be a decent weapon in it self.

[Keltest]

Except the thing is that, over a sufficiently long time, yes, the Drow should be expected to attempt to kill or enslave all non-Drow. Maybe not right now, and maybe not even over the course of the campaign. But the culture of the race as written is that betrayal is inevitable.

That is true of a significant number of surface races as well, to a point. While few are so self-destructively betrayal happy as the Drow, the idea that you could not maintain a long and mutually beneficial trade relationship with, say, Bregan D'aerth, is pretty silly. Any drow that is open to negotiation is not going to betray you until and unless they get something more out of it than just letting you give them stuff.

The priestesses of Lolth are probably going to give you a hard time just for existing, but even they aren't quite so foolish as to indiscriminately eliminate any non-drow they come across out of reflex.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

It's true that there are definitely surface races with whom no longest-term coexistence is possible. But the surface world is so much more varied that you can always just go elsewhere. The Underdark is a much more claustrophobic environment.

[TheCrowing1432]

Bolded part. You know who else attacks the PC's on sight? An Orc Slaving Party. Or a Hobgoblin Slaving Party. Or a Hill Giant Slaving Party. Slaving parties are not the only thing Drow do. You will find Drow merchant caravan's, servants, slaves themselves. If the race is of the Humanoid type, you will not find a culture of complete uniformity.


Except Orcs, Hobgoblins and Hill Giants are all kill on sight as much as drow are.

Drow merchants are unlikely to sell to non drow and are in fact more likely to kill you, take your stuff and sell it.

Servants and Slaves on the other hand would provide some interesting talking points,




And even talking about Abberations like Mind Flayers, your being incredibly narrowminded in how games are run to think Mind Flayers will never consider talking to the PCs. Sure, its not exactly unlikely. But they are sentient creatures, they can make choices beyond their Alignment entry. A lone Mind Flayer, thrown from its convent, could seek help of the PCs to reduce its former convent for tossing it out. Or a convent at war with Drow and losing, taking any help it can get.


True enough, though its far more likely to try and eat your brain/ enslave you then anything else. Why ask for help when it can just enslave you and use you that way?

[MyrPsychologist]

Bolded part. You know who else attacks the PC's on sight? An Orc Slaving Party. Or a Hobgoblin Slaving Party. Or a Hill Giant Slaving Party. Slaving parties are not the only thing Drow do. You will find Drow merchant caravan's, servants, slaves themselves. If the race is of the Humanoid type, you will not find a culture of complete uniformity.

Encountering Drow in the underdark is not likely to result in a helpful Drow encounter. The vast majority of the time they aren't going to work with non-Drow. Merchant caravans won't sell to you and will probably just attack you. Slaves MIGHT help but that's a might. They're powerful but incredibly uniform. They're incredibly evil and MALICIOUS. You might have your stray offshoot but that's not really something that a party would expect before making contact (or if they do, it will likely kill them). It's unfair to even compare the Drow to other races on the surface because of how prolific the Drow are compared to other races. So while you can feasibly parlay with some of the more hostile surface races it's incredibly unlikely that a party will be able to do the same with the Drow. Unless they themselves are Drow, work for the Drow, or are the agents of some more powerful being which the Drow respect.


And even talking about Abberations like Mind Flayers, your being incredibly narrowminded in how games are run to think Mind Flayers will never consider talking to the PCs. Sure, its not exactly unlikely. But they are sentient creatures, they can make choices beyond their Alignment entry. A lone Mind Flayer, thrown from its convent, could seek help of the PCs to reduce its former convent for tossing it out. Or a convent at war with Drow and losing, taking any help it can get.
Anything is possible. But why would it not just do what its race is about...and enslave others? Seems a lot safer and more in line with their behavior than trying to forge alliances with a group of people who, on any other day, would probably cut off your head and call it a good deed.

And really. We're just at the point I said. that the vast majority of the Underdark is hostile and will attack. Even if you align yourself with some aspect of the Underdark (which is already a morally questionable thing to do) you're now at odds against everything else. So it's going to have a huge emphasis on combat and fewer ways to circumvent it.


Underdark is as boring and one-dimensional as the DM running it.
You could easily homebrew something to make it more interesting. But that can be said about anything.

[atemu1234]

It really is.


I mean it all comes down to your DMing ability. Descriptive language can make even the most mundane forest trail/desert dune sound interesting.

Sure the underdark is all caves and darkness, but with the right atmosphere it can prove to be a very cool adventure..............


.....up until the drow death squad pumps you full of sleep poison, takes your stuff and carts you back to Menzoberanzan to be sacrificed to Loth.

First of all, Lolth. Second of all, I never did this. I swear... why is everyone looking at me like that? Not lying. I swear...

[Elkad]

Infighting among the Drow means there is plenty of opportunity for plot hooks among the players.

Sure, it will have nasty backstabby undertones, but meeting a merchant caravan who agrees to trade with you if only you'll knock off their competition. Other drow caravans, monsters infesting the shorter trade route, etc. All the standard stuff you do above-ground, just you have to worry that when you go back to get paid, you'd better be healed up, or your employer will just finish you off.

[arixe]

Im wondering if i should take this over to homebrew and collaborating to make a pathfinder underdark and web pits and whats a whos its it be a pretty fun project

[atemu1234]

Im wondering if i should take this over to homebrew and collaborating to make a pathfinder underdark and web pits and whats a whos its it be a pretty fun project

Look into Plot and Poison: A Guidebook to Drow. It'd help you.

[arixe]

Look into Plot and Poison: A Guidebook to Drow. It'd help you.

Ill look into it. Thanks for the help im suprised it turned into a look about drow ethics

[jiriku]

No.

The Underdark is only about kick in the door styled things. You can't outwit and charm a drow slaving party. They aren't interested in your non-drow explanations. You are their source of money and power and they just want you. You can't reason with a mindflayer because it's goal is literally to consume your brain. etc for like almost everything in the Underdark.

It's a place that rewards stealth. You hide, you watch, you learn. Come unprepared to a fight and you WILL die. Get ambushed and you WILL die. It's a very cuthroat place where the only assumption you can safely make is that you are not safe. nothing will help you.

This is why it's bland. It's not that it's underground that makes it bland. It's that encountering NPCs will always roughly go the same. Watch them, figure out what they are, kill them. Repeat. Players don't really need to concern themselves with other avenues of approach because they're just encountering something that is automatically hostile and evil.

Now this is the attitude I'm talking about here. Because MP thinks "the Underdark is only about kick in the door styled things", as a player he'd never try talking and he'd discourage other players from trying. As a DM he'd be very skeptical of roleplaying attempts by the PCs. But the Underdark is a richer setting if you don't decide ahead of time to impoverish it and make it one-dimensional.


You don't only roleplay with friendly NPCs, and just because you'll probably eventually come to blows with an opponent doesn't prevent temporary alliances of convenience. In fact, creating such temporary alliances is hard work appropriate for diplomatic heroes, and is the kind of thing that earns xp rewards and creates great adventures you'll talk about with your friends for years afterwards.
Illusion and shape-changing magic is a thing, and players can pose as members of Underdark races to get better reception. This is a classic trope that is well-represented in published modules and D&D-based computer games.
The Underdark includes creatures that are more receptive to talking to surface-worlders, such as stone giants, dragons, deep gnomes, gloura, deep imaskari, gloamings, myconids, and slyths, just to name the obvious choices from the books I have open in front of me.

The developers endorsed and supported this kind of approach in their published Underdark modules. Again, I have an Underdark module open in front of me right now. It includes several drow NPCs who don't want to fight and will seek to initiate dialogue with the PCs. It includes several "opponents" who start with an attitude of Indifferent -- and there are printed Diplomacy DCs right there in the module for convincing them to become helpful and assist the party. There must be a dozen named NPCs you can talk with here, and that's even before the players start creating opportunities for themselves with clever use of their abilities.

And since when is it bad to reward stealth, or reward being prepared for a fight? Since when is it bad to adventure in a dangerous place?

[arixe]

Well what im seeing mostly in this post is that a lot of people think underdark is dull cuz they them selves rob themselves of interesting oppertunitirs and the same can be said of the setting caves are as beoring as the people observing them there are caves made of marble the change color through out the day based on how the light hit near by water sources. You could go through a portion of valcanic activity. Its like saying the plane of earth would be a solid plane of granite when theres so much more interesting rocks and dirt and such to choose from

[Crake]

Now this is the attitude I'm talking about here. Because MP thinks "the Underdark is only about kick in the door styled things", as a player he'd never try talking and he'd discourage other players from trying. As a DM he'd be very skeptical of roleplaying attempts by the PCs. But the Underdark is a richer setting if you don't decide ahead of time to impoverish it and make it one-dimensional.


You don't only roleplay with friendly NPCs, and just because you'll probably eventually come to blows with an opponent doesn't prevent temporary alliances of convenience. In fact, creating such temporary alliances is hard work appropriate for diplomatic heroes, and is the kind of thing that earns xp rewards and creates great adventures you'll talk about with your friends for years afterwards.
Illusion and shape-changing magic is a thing, and players can pose as members of Underdark races to get better reception. This is a classic trope that is well-represented in published modules and D&D-based computer games.
The Underdark includes creatures that are more receptive to talking to surface-worlders, such as stone giants, dragons, deep gnomes, gloura, deep imaskari, gloamings, myconids, and slyths, just to name the obvious choices from the books I have open in front of me.

The developers endorsed and supported this kind of approach in their published Underdark modules. Again, I have an Underdark module open in front of me right now. It includes several drow NPCs who don't want to fight and will seek to initiate dialogue with the PCs. It includes several "opponents" who start with an attitude of Indifferent -- and there are printed Diplomacy DCs right there in the module for convincing them to become helpful and assist the party. There must be a dozen named NPCs you can talk with here, and that's even before the players start creating opportunities for themselves with clever use of their abilities.

And since when is it bad to reward stealth, or reward being prepared for a fight? Since when is it bad to adventure in a dangerous place?

The way I see it is that all that and more can be done on the surface, simply due to a larger variety. With the exception of a few niche interests, there's nothing the underdark does that cant be done in a more interesting setting. Admittedly that's my subjective opinion on the matter, but that's the way I see it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Personally, I was turned off from Underdark by that series. You know. The one that caused the Linear Order's caster to get hauled away by lawyers for copyright infringement? The one that makes it seem like all drow on the surface carry twin scimitars and are emo rangers? Yea. The series that launched a thousand fanboys. There was only one series which was more poorly written (in my own personal opinion), and the less said about that self-insert gary stu of a wizard, the better.

There's no reason to go down to the Underdark, much less the Lowerdark. There is absolutely nothing worth your time and effort to go down there for. If you can survive the Underdark, then you can go make a living killing Dragons for their hoards and live the easy life after making the world a better place by decimating the chromatic dragon population. Or you can go plane-hopping and ruin economies by trading iron for gold in Krynn and coming back with an archmage's ransom. Or you can just knock off the odd tyrant or two and peacefully rule your new kingdom more fairly than the previous ruler did.

The animals are lethal. The FUNGUS is lethal. Sometimes, even the WATER is lethal. The inhabitants are either psychopaths, bent on possessing your soul, or all of the above. Well, some of them merely wish to be left alone and will enforce this wish with lethal force the moment you get too close, whether or not you actually knew you got too close. And they're the nice ones.

And if you are unfortunate enough to find your way into the Lowerdark, start rolling your new character now unless you are CharOp level optimized.

It isn't worth it. I don't care what that sleezy merchant is offering for parts found in the Underdark, it isn't worth it. Odds are, he's probably working for one faction or another wanting fresh suckers and you're walking into a trap. On the outside chance that the offer is legit, whatever he is sending you after is going to be valuable, which means it is either being farmed by one of the Underdark's denizens, who will object to you trying to take it, or it is so dangerous that not even the denizens of the Underdark want anything to do with it. Which means it will likely be able to eat your face, or it is exceedingly rare.

[unseenmage]

See all of this is why I really enjoy the fluff for the DragonMech setting. The surface world is decimated and everyone had to retreat underground. And somewhere down there deep is super ancient magitech maybe probably for sure perhaps.

[arixe]

See all of this is why I really enjoy the fluff for the DragonMech setting. The surface world is decimated and everyone had to retreat underground. And somewhere down there deep is super ancient magitech maybe probably for sure perhaps.

You talking arcanapunk?

[unseenmage]

You talking arcanapunk?

I'm talking giant walking magical city mechs. Undead mechs. Elven tree mechs. Awakened animated golem-like mechs. Chainsaw daggers. Steam powered undead, cyborgs, and artificer-wizards.
Lunar rain. Lunar abominations and lunar dragons descending from a falling, crumbling moon to ravage the surface.

Sadly I'm also taking a combat system that turns the mech fights into 'ungainly slap fights' and rulebooks that are so disjointed which have such scattered information so as to be nearly useless.
Rich fluff but crummy crunch.

Admittedly the Underdark is more a footnote in the setting's history than anything central. But the potential is there. That is reputedly where the first ancient dwarven mech tech was rediscovered.

Edit: Oh yeah, and no Industrial Era. This stuff is all hand crafted goodness. And the construction times/prices try to reflect that.

[arixe]

That sounds epic and silly all at the same time. Im gonna say not my cup of tea i do enjoy arcana punk every once and a while

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Personally, I was turned off from Underdark by that series. You know. The one that caused the Linear Order's caster to get hauled away by lawyers for copyright infringement? The one that makes it seem like all drow on the surface carry twin scimitars and are emo rangers? Yea. The series that launched a thousand fanboys. There was only one series which was more poorly written (in my own personal opinion), and the less said about that self-insert gary stu of a wizard, the better.

There's no reason to go down to the Underdark, much less the Lowerdark. There is absolutely nothing worth your time and effort to go down there for. If you can survive the Underdark, then you can go make a living killing Dragons for their hoards and live the easy life after making the world a better place by decimating the chromatic dragon population. Or you can go plane-hopping and ruin economies by trading iron for gold in Krynn and coming back with an archmage's ransom. Or you can just knock off the odd tyrant or two and peacefully rule your new kingdom more fairly than the previous ruler did.

The animals are lethal. The FUNGUS is lethal. Sometimes, even the WATER is lethal. The inhabitants are either psychopaths, bent on possessing your soul, or all of the above. Well, some of them merely wish to be left alone and will enforce this wish with lethal force the moment you get too close, whether or not you actually knew you got too close. And they're the nice ones.

And if you are unfortunate enough to find your way into the Lowerdark, start rolling your new character now unless you are CharOp level optimized.

It isn't worth it. I don't care what that sleezy merchant is offering for parts found in the Underdark, it isn't worth it. Odds are, he's probably working for one faction or another wanting fresh suckers and you're walking into a trap. On the outside chance that the offer is legit, whatever he is sending you after is going to be valuable, which means it is either being farmed by one of the Underdark's denizens, who will object to you trying to take it, or it is so dangerous that not even the denizens of the Underdark want anything to do with it. Which means it will likely be able to eat your face, or it is exceedingly rare.

You know what this makes me think of? World's Largest Dungeon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_Largest_Dungeon).

[Oryan77]

It isn't worth it. I don't care what that sleezy merchant is offering for parts found in the Underdark, it isn't worth it. Odds are, he's probably working for one faction or another wanting fresh suckers and you're walking into a trap. On the outside chance that the offer is legit, whatever he is sending you after is going to be valuable, which means it is either being farmed by one of the Underdark's denizens, who will object to you trying to take it, or it is so dangerous that not even the denizens of the Underdark want anything to do with it. Which means it will likely be able to eat your face, or it is exceedingly rare.

Huh, that sounds pretty much like the entire reason people want to play a game like D&D. Unless of course yer scared to adventure and you have more fun sitting in a tavern talking to the locals about turnips for 4 hours.

Then again, I don't expect anything less from someone that is so elitist and obviously "cooler" than the rest of us that he'll write an entire paragraph to remind us how lame Drizzt and Elminster is. Cause that's an old....tired.....argument....and serves no purpose in this thread other than to stir "fanboys" up.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

What?

I'm not gonna lie, that seems like a really OTT response.

[Crake]

Huh, that sounds pretty much like the entire reason people want to play a game like D&D. Unless of course yer scared to adventure and you have more fun sitting in a tavern talking to the locals about turnips for 4 hours.

Not all people are masochistic and want their characters ground into the dirt, with no likable people around to roleplay in, like what typically happens in the underdark. There are plenty of more interesting places to adventure in, with less soulcrushing atmospheres, and just as great rewards. There is nothing the underdark offers that any other adventure locale doesnt, except the aforementioned lack of likable NPCs, soulcrushingly dank environment and a "shoot first, ask question maybe afterwards if anyone's left alive" mentality. And anyone who says that that's a player problem, I disagree. The underdark breeds that mentality after the first few encounters when they shot you on sight.

That said, I have had entire sessions with my players where they were in a city and did nothing but interact with NPCs for the entire session. No xp gained, no loot found, pure and simple character building roleplay. So yes, maybe some people do actually enjoy sitting at the tavern talking to the locals about turnips.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

That said, I have had entire sessions with my players where they were in a city and did nothing but interact with NPCs for the entire session. No xp gained, no loot found, pure and simple character building roleplay. So yes, maybe some people do actually enjoy sitting at the tavern talking to the locals about turnips.

I actually had my first session in quite a while that involved zero combat about a week ago. There was a fair bit of rolling, but nearly all of it was Knowledge and Gather Information with a spot of Appraise, Perform, Profession and I think one Bluff.

And the interesting thing is, on its face I don't think there's any reason what they did couldn't have just as easily happened in a drow city, or a duergar city. The obstacle is that they'd never have approached things that way, because things in the Underdark have a justly-earned reputation. (Damnit, aforementioned fantasy series. Why couldn't you have had some nuance?)

[arixe]

So overall underdark is a place of challenges and difficulty but also has a deceptively rich areas/enviorments. I see the main challange is correctly potraying is the evil races. Honestly i despise chaotic stupid which is apparently how most people see drow. Most evil would prefer to use rather then kill out right. Say a drow noble needs something done it would be so much easier to use the random adventures that her hunting party captured. I mean they use sleep poison. Why not use a paralitic works on almost everything shy of dragons and undead. Sleep only affects most things.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I don't know that I'd say it has deceptively rich areas and environments. Does that mean rich in narrative potential? Or does it mean rich in... resources? Stuff your players want to take? Either way, I'd say the surface is just as bueno unless they want to open some sort of gem mine.

Random challenge to folks: What's an experience that a party can only have in the Underdark, and why is that experience essential to the D and D experience?

[Oryan77]

That said, I have had entire sessions with my players where they were in a city and did nothing but interact with NPCs for the entire session. No xp gained, no loot found, pure and simple character building roleplay. So yes, maybe some people do actually enjoy sitting at the tavern talking to the locals about turnips.

I have also DMed many sessions that were nothing but roleplaying scenarios. The thing is, it was moving the story along. Talking about turnips is not moving the story along unless it is actually part of the plot. If you still don't have a problem with the group spending an entire session talking about turnips, which has nothing to do with any plotline, and you guys enjoy it, that's great.

I just don't think it makes much sense to claim that turnip-talk is an acceptable way to spend a gaming session, but adventuring in the Underdark is a waste of a groups time. :tongue:

[Crake]

I have also DMed many sessions that were nothing but roleplaying scenarios. The thing is, it was moving the story along. Talking about turnips is not moving the story along unless it is actually part of the plot. If you still don't have a problem with the group spending an entire session talking about turnips, which has nothing to do with any plotline, and you guys enjoy it, that's great.

I just don't think it makes much sense to claim that turnip-talk is an acceptable way to spend a gaming session, but adventuring in the Underdark is a waste of a groups time. :tongue:

My games frequently involve no "plots" other than the ones the players make for themsleves, they do what tickles their fancy. That said, if everything MUST be plot related, then your characters will always know that when a character approaches them, it must have some plot significance. Letting players do non-plot-related things lets them develop their character outside of the context of whatever plot you may have thrown at them, and in my opinion, is necessary for building well rounded, non-2D characters.

Also, I never said that adventuring in the underdark is a waste of a group's time, that's a strawman argument. I said that the underdark has nothing to offer beyond a few very niche playstyles that an above ground adventure couldn't achieve, but an above ground adventure gives you many more opportunities for other forms of gameplay due to the lack of the whole "everything wants to **** you" environment that the underdark has. That has always been my argument, in essence: anything you can do, I can do better.

My recommendation to the OP was always "don't force it on players", because honestly, everyone I know, with a few rare exceptions, absolutely hates the underdark, and would hate to be FORCED to go down there. A DM tried it once, and it made the game fall apart, because everyone just didn't care after the 2nd time we were beaten into the ground before DM fiat, or the enemies turning into fat mall cops all of a sudden saved us. The underdark is just so full of "**** you" that unless the players are super high op, or the DM plays the enemies as idiots, the players will always get ****ed horribly sooner rather than later.

[arixe]

Random challenge to folks: What's an experience that a party can only have in the Underdark, and why is that experience essential to the D and D experience?

If I'm not mistaken the under dark is the only way to the Web Pitts. Which is connected to the abyss right so if you do the math hammer the average cr of an Underdark encounter is significantly less then the average of the abyss so technically it's a short cut. So I imagine players could be working with a pally order to set up a forward operating base to assult a demon lord

[Crake]

If I'm not mistaken the under dark is the only way to the Web Pitts. Which is connected to the abyss right so if you do the math hammer the average cr of an Underdark encounter is significantly less then the average of the abyss so technically it's a short cut. So I imagine players could be working with a pally order to set up a forward operating base to assult a demon lord

The demonweb pits are plane on the abyss just like any other, you can get there via a variety of planar travel spells.

[DrKerosene]

If I'm not mistaken the under dark is the only way to the Web Pitts. Which is connected to the abyss right so if you do the math hammer the average cr of an Underdark encounter is significantly less then the average of the abyss so technically it's a short cut. So I imagine players could be working with a pally order to set up a forward operating base to assult a demon lord

I'm pretty sure there are supposed to be random portals to various planes in the Underdark that you can "accidentally" wanderthrough, probably mostly to the planes of Elemental Earth and Shadow.

Maybe I'm just thinking about those elemental pools that have a portal at the bottom to the same plane as whatever the pool is made of, and they have something like a Wyrd/Weird. I doubt that it's limited to the Underdark, but I remember thinking they sounded like elemental versions of the Great Fairies from Ocarina of Time.

Aside from radioactive rocks, trolls that are cramped and need to stretch to increase combat ability, and an excuse to control flight somewhat, I can't think of much I would use the Underdark as an actual setting/site for.

[Keltest]

I'm pretty sure there are supposed to be random portals to various planes in the Underdark that you can "accidentally" wanderthrough, probably mostly to the planes of Elemental Earth and Shadow.

Maybe I'm just thinking about those elemental pools that have a portal at the bottom to the same plane as whatever the pool is made of, and they have something like a Wyrd/Weird. I doubt that it's limited to the Underdark, but I remember thinking they sounded like elemental versions of the Great Fairies from Ocarina of Time.

Aside from radioactive rocks, trolls that are cramped and need to stretch to increase combat ability, and an excuse to control flight somewhat, I can't think of much I would use the Underdark as an actual setting/site for.

Among other things, the Underdark in my setting has lost libraries of ancient dwarven lore, large trade highways that are great for circumventing pesky mountains and lakes, a wide variety of unique alchemical resources, gnomes (which don't live on the surface) and bunches of unique monsters that can provide a challenge for the party.

The problem comes about when DMs portray all the races that live down there as a people of hats with no deviation. Sure, the drow as a culture are self-destructive and backstab-happy, but there are plenty of individuals and smaller organizations who have absolutely no qualms about working with you successfully for mutual gain. Illithids are evil beings who eat brains, sure, but theyre also fiercely intelligent and physically not all that intimidating. They could easily be persuaded that you have more value than just as yet another worker minion or light afternoon snack.

[arixe]

Well damn guess i failed the challange. But im interested in seeing other people to give it a shot. But teleport spells only do small numbers and if were talking about supporting a crusade we need a gate. Unless we plan on using several teleports but they are very inaccurate. Miles of error if the spells read like i remember.

[OttoVonBigby]

Random challenge to folks: What's an experience that a party can only have in the Underdark, and why is that experience essential to the D and D experience?

How about "weird and/or wacky and/or scary interactions with unusual creatures," like this (http://castlesandcooks.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/13.jpg). It's all dependent on the setting, of course, but being in the Underdark forces a healthy dose of the aforementioned "weird" and "unusual," which IME makes adventures more memorable. Yes, you could do all that in planar adventures, but a party without planehopping capability need not be confined to typical surface stuff (human politics, occasional elf/dwarf cultural entanglements)...thanks to the Underdark. In other words, it's the weird world next door.

[Crake]

How about "weird and/or wacky and/or scary interactions with unusual creatures," like this (http://castlesandcooks.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/13.jpg). It's all dependent on the setting, of course, but being in the Underdark forces a healthy dose of the aforementioned "weird" and "unusual," which IME makes adventures more memorable. Yes, you could do all that in planar adventures, but a party without planehopping capability need not be confined to typical surface stuff (human politics, occasional elf/dwarf cultural entanglements)...thanks to the Underdark. In other words, it's the weird world next door.

I think it typically goes more like this (http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/1954/katiedrowvolleyballbig.png)

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Random challenge to folks: What's an experience that a party can only have in the Underdark, and why is that experience essential to the D and D experience?

Here are some shower thoughts on my own challenge.

One of the things the Underdark can be good for is changing the assumptions of a party. If your party is overreliant on a particular thing, sending them on a quick side trip to the Underdark can be a good way to shake their faith in those tactics in an organic way. Is your party all about stealth? The Underdark has lots of telepathic monsters, and ones with blindsight or tremorsense. Alternately, is your party (like my current one) lax about scouting? There are many dangerous, stealthy monsters and dangerous areas, and that's before you get into drow NPCs with class levels. Casters don't think about their utility spells? The Underdark can present a variety of challenging movement puzzles, so if your party Wizard doesn't ever think about the fact that he has spider climb or the Cleric doesn't remember stone shape, you can put them in an environment that forces the use of those spells. Alternately, if your party is overreliant on scry-and-die tactics, the Underdark's wild magic and null magic zones and fields of faerzress can throw up some interesting obstacles.

In themselves, none of these things are particularly linked to the Underdark. You can do all of them in any game, and should. The advantage of the Underdark here is that the environment it presents is so unquestionably other, so alien, that players won't usually question why things are different or harder. Without that resistance, it's easier for them to start thinking in new ways and discovering new things about their characters and capabilities. In an ideal world, they'll then be able to take what they learn and apply that to their main adventures.

TLDR: The Underdark presents an alien environment that can be used to push players into new modes of thinking.

[Oryan77]

in essence: anything you can do, I can do better.

Just based on your responses and attitude in this thread, I highly doubt that.


honestly, everyone I know, with a few rare exceptions, absolutely hates the underdark

Obviously that means the rest of the gamer population must or should hate the underdark.

Honestly, in all my years playing D&D and the hundred or so people I've gamed with, I've never had people tell me they don't like the underdark. Excessive dungeons crawls, sure, but an entire location? Nobody I know has mentioned a dislike, even when I've ran my own underdark sessions. I simply chalk it up to your circle of gamers being subjected to terrible gameplay. But that's just my opinion.

[atemu1234]

Just based on your responses and attitude in this thread, I highly doubt that.



Obviously that means the rest of the gamer population must or should hate the underdark.

Honestly, in all my years playing D&D and the hundred or so people I've gamed with, I've never had people tell me they don't like the underdark. Excessive dungeons crawls, sure, but an entire location? Nobody I know has mentioned a dislike, even when I've ran my own underdark sessions. I simply chalk it up to your circle of gamers being subjected to terrible gameplay. But that's just my opinion.

... I like the Underdark....
My feelings are hurt...

[Crake]

Just based on your responses and attitude in this thread, I highly doubt that.

Just wanted to quickly clarify, incase there was a misinterpretation, that was a metaphor for aboveground vs underground, not me vs you.

[arixe]

Im still hoping for some one who did have an epic adventure in under dark but im still getting mostly negitive responses. So new question is the problem with published campagnes if not is there some truely must try campaigns

[nedz]

I ran an entire campaign underground. I didn't use the Gygaxian underdark as such: it was more of a Dwarven army try to retake Moria kind of thing but there were lots of connected underground complexes: mines, underground canals, bottomless shafts, underground lakes, ancient dwarven palaces taken over by drow, ... and all the usual underdark inhabitants. It worked very well. The party were a Dwarven special ops recon team operating behind enemy lines so the game was kind of Cross of Iron meets Sgt Bilko.

I have also played in a game where the underdark was just long 10' wide passages between ambushes, but then most encounters in that game where ambushes anyway.

[arixe]

That sounds pretty lagit. Morea is deffently more like something my players can wrap their minds around.

[Katana1515]

Im still hoping for some one who did have an epic adventure in under dark but im still getting mostly negitive responses. So new question is the problem with published campagnes if not is there some truely must try campaigns

Cant remember if I said this before, I spent two IRL years playing in a homebrew game set pretty much entirely in a Drow city. It was awesome, espionage, intrigue, assassination, vote-rigging, streetfights and clandestine meetings in shadowy restaurants culminating in the release of an ancient horror that threatened the entire Plane that only our band of villainous bastards could stop. (We like this Plane, our stuff is here, so no mister Elder Evil, we will not bow to your wishes!). This was an evil/neutral game, with PC's largely drawn from underdark races. It worked really well, and brought the Underdark to life.

Honestly I think some of what people are saying about the Underdark seems like hyperbole and perhaps a little disingenuous. If you are running this game, you can doctor the underdark as much as you want to suit your needs. I personally cant touch a stock setting without twisting it to my own devious ends :smallbiggrin:.

If you want a Good game and don't want the full 'everything is out to get you' aspect that others are mentioning, simply don't highlight that in your game. Base your game in more metropolitan underdark areas that are welcome to a wide range of races, if things in that city are more cut-throat in this town than the hero's are used to, play that up. Create innocents that they have to protect and nurture. Have the PC's make difficult choices about how much they will endanger themselves to free those abused orc slaves, and make their disguises and escape methods a key part of tactical discussions.

If you are wanting everything to be light and easy, its probably not for the you, but DND once you get down to it, is meant to be about people who for whatever reasons, risk life and limb. The Underdark is as good a place as any to do that in.

I now want to run a game where the PC's are vigilantes in an underdark 'Gotham'.....

[arixe]

I now want to run a game where the PC's are vigilantes in an underdark 'Gotham'.....

I can see the bad man impressions now. And puns unavoidable puns. "I AM BATMAN" and hes a were bat lol

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Im still hoping for some one who did have an epic adventure in under dark but im still getting mostly negitive responses. So new question is the problem with published campagnes if not is there some truely must try campaigns

If you want to run a published adventure, I think the consensus is that Red Hand of Doom is the best one. Happily, there's a handbook for it on these very boards that includes both a lot of useful information and links to runthroughs by other groups.