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Eldritch_Ent
2007-04-29, 12:32 AM
Okay, this is a thread about the Monk's flurry of blows. Why? Because I find it somewhat confusing. (This is not a thread about monks in general, just flurry of blows.)

First off, is there any reason NOT to use it constantly? There doesn't appear to be any downsides to it, unless you count "extra attacks" to be a downside... (The fact it has it's own BAB table and isn't just included witht he monk's regular BAB makes me think there should be a downside somewhere.)

Second, Is the ability only "Balanced" because of the monk's low BAB progression? What would happen if, say, you gave the ability to a fighter?

Edit: Third, at what point would you consider extra attacks becoming "Overpowered"?

There's other questions I'm sure, but I can't think of any at the moment.

brian c
2007-04-29, 12:35 AM
Once you're high level 9, there's no penalty anymore so you pretty much should use it all the time, yes. It has it's own attack bonus column because it can be a little confusing keeping track of when you get the second flurry attack and when the attack penalties decrease.

Jack Mann
2007-04-29, 12:35 AM
You take a -2 penalty to attacks until level five, and then a -1 penalty until ninth. After that, no, there's no reason not to use it.

Until then, though, you're often better off going with your regular attack, especially since monks tend not to have very high attack bonuses anyway.

Douglas
2007-04-29, 12:43 AM
At first, it gives you an attack penalty. A level 1 Monk can get two attacks with flurry, but they are each at -2 from his normal attack bonus. Once you reach Monk 9, however, the penalty goes away and there is no reason not to use it every time you make a full attack.

It's "balanced" both by average BAB, a limited list of subpar weapons it can be used with, and the requirement to be unarmored. Removing any or all of these factors would substantially increase the ability's power, but it wouldn't be anywhere near enough to bring a non ToB melee class up to the power level of full casters.

Jack Mann
2007-04-29, 12:51 AM
Hell, it would barely be enough to bring the monk up to the fighter's level.

Kevka Palazzo
2007-04-29, 12:59 AM
Meh, a monk's real power lies in her saves. Mmmm multiclassing monk.

Turcano
2007-04-29, 01:04 AM
Hell, it would barely be enough to bring the monk up to the fighter's level.

"But... four attacks!"

Kevka Palazzo
2007-04-29, 01:20 AM
"But... four attacks!"

Yes. Four unarmed (if powerful) attacks that with the right feats overcome damage reduction on most mundane creatures. But what is it they lack? Oh yeah, enchantability.

Ramza00
2007-04-29, 01:30 AM
Four attacks that barely hits, and barely do any damage.

And by the time they do hit, a fighter/barbarian will be power attacking for far more damage.

Normal Monk isn't worth it even for flurry.

----------------------------

That said I don't have this book, but the eberron book Secrets of Sarlona has a great monk feat. Tashalatora requires the feat Monastic Training in a psionic class. Make the psionic class the prestige class Warmind.

Tashalatora for the cost of two feats progresses your monk Unarmed Damage, Flurry of Blows, and Monk AC whenever you take levels in that psionic class.

Thus a Monk 4/Fighter 1/Warmind 10/X 5 (X being full bab)
will have the Monk Unarmed Damage of a 14th lvl monk (superior unarmed strike and a monk belt will make it 20), have a bab of 19, flurry as a 14th lvl monk, have 70+power points with 6 powers known up to 5th lvl psychic warrior powers.

Have your party wizard cast some buffs on you (Greater Magic Weapon, Greater Magic Wallop, Greater Mage Armor), and invest in a mode of flight and you can go to town.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-04-29, 01:36 AM
Yes. Four unarmed (if powerful) attacks that with the right feats overcome damage reduction on most mundane creatures. But what is it they lack? Oh yeah, enchantability.

:smallbiggrin: Monk Redux (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35152) :smallbiggrin:

Turcano
2007-04-29, 01:41 AM
Yes. Four unarmed (if powerful) attacks that with the right feats overcome damage reduction on most mundane creatures. But what is it they lack? Oh yeah, enchantability.


Four attacks that barely hits, and barely do any damage.

And by the time they do hit, a fighter/barbarian will be power attacking for far more damage.

Normal Monk isn't worth it even for flurry.

No, the proper comeback is:

"What a waste. While the rest of us were having fun and talking to girls, you were at home in the monastery, learning to use your 'bare hands,' if you get my drift."
"So... lonely... and for what? Bwaaaaaaah!"
"There, there. It's not your fault your class fails to achieve its basic design intent. Now get the hell out of here before a man with a REAL class decides to change the meaning of the phrase, 'fighting unarmed.'"

JaronK
2007-04-29, 01:42 AM
To answer the OP, yes there are times when flurry is a bad plan. Flurry gives you only your strength as a bonus to damage, but you could instead use a quarterstaff two handed and get 1.5X strength to damage, which may well be necessary for getting through DR.

JaronK

Roderick_BR
2007-04-29, 02:14 AM
In 3.0, Monks had a "unarmed Base Attack" that was the normal BAB, but with extra attacks based on "-3" instead of "-5", with the option to flurry, like a TWF for unarmed attack, and later the feat Lightning Fist that was like Improved TWF for unarmed. In 3.5 they got hid of the unarmed extra attacks and mixed it direcly with the flurry. So, the problems with flurry: At lower levels, you get a penalty to attack, like TWF. At higher levels, you rarely have the chance to flurry, needing to resort to charges more often, and you can do more damage with two handed weapons. But if you can do a full attack and is not using any special weapon, you should always flurry.

Pax_Chi
2007-04-29, 04:18 AM
Yes. Four unarmed (if powerful) attacks that with the right feats overcome damage reduction on most mundane creatures. But what is it they lack? Oh yeah, enchantability.

Actually, according to 3.5, a Monk's unarmed strikes count as weapons for the purpose of spells and abilities that enhance weapons or natural weapons. A Psionic Monk could use either Weapons of Energy or Claws of Energy on his unarmed strikes as if his fists and feet were natural or manufactured weapons.

squishycube
2007-04-29, 04:36 AM
You take a -2 penalty to attacks until level five, and then a -1 penalty until ninth. After that, no, there's no reason not to use it.

Until then, though, you're often better off going with your regular attack, especially since monks tend not to have very high attack bonuses anyway.

If I recall correctly it is often better to take a penalty to attack rolls if it means you can make an extra attack. This is obvious against low AC critters, but goes for high AC opponents all the same. Just don't expect both attacks to hit, you should expect a larger chance for one of the attacks to hit.
I can't recall my exact calculations, but it came down to something like "only if the penalty means you have to roll a 20 to hit you shouldn't take a penalty to get extra attacks." This may be incorrect, but it was something like that.

Yuki Akuma
2007-04-29, 04:45 AM
Actually, according to 3.5, a Monk's unarmed strikes count as weapons for the purpose of spells and abilities that enhance weapons or natural weapons. A Psionic Monk could use either Weapons of Energy or Claws of Energy on his unarmed strikes as if his fists and feet were natural or manufactured weapons.

Yes. So you rely on your caster friend even more than a fighter does, as you can't permanently enchant your fists.

JaronK
2007-04-29, 04:50 AM
Which, some would say, is why the Kensai class was created.

JaronK

Ninja Chocobo
2007-04-29, 04:50 AM
Or you take levels in Kensai...
Edit: Ack! How could the ninja be ninja'd.
It makes no sense!

Yuki Akuma
2007-04-29, 04:52 AM
And here I was thinking this was a thread about monks.

JaronK
2007-04-29, 04:52 AM
Hehe, I ninja'd the ninja!

JaronK
2007-04-29, 04:54 AM
It is. But some PrCs are created to go with certain base classes... Frenzied Berserker off of Barbarian, for example, or Radient Servant of Pelor off of Cleric. Any discussion of the balance of the base class should at least consider base classes designed to go well with that class, and the Kensai is well designed to fit with monks (allows you to keep taking levels of monk, must be lawful, can enchant fists).

JaronK

Dausuul
2007-04-29, 04:56 AM
You take a -2 penalty to attacks until level five, and then a -1 penalty until ninth. After that, no, there's no reason not to use it.

Until then, though, you're often better off going with your regular attack, especially since monks tend not to have very high attack bonuses anyway.

Not true. The increased number of attacks makes it worthwhile in almost all circumstances. At first level, for instance, you either break even or come out ahead by using Flurry, unless your opponent has an AC of exactly 18 plus your non-Flurrying attack bonus. (At 17 or 19, you average the same number of hits whether you Flurry or not, and at 20+ or 16-, Flurry wins.)

Unless you happen to know your opponent's exact AC, the main reason for not Flurrying is that you had to spend a move action or charge to reach the target and so can't Flurry this round.

squishycube
2007-04-29, 05:07 AM
Thanks Dausuul for providing the crunch I missed in my post.

Caelestion
2007-04-29, 08:04 AM
Of course, since your fists are mindless, they can't be enchanted. They could be imbued, enhanced or other adjectives though.

Starsinger
2007-04-29, 08:07 AM
Isn't there a necklace in Savage Species (terrible book, I know) that allows you to put enhancement bonuses on it that transfer to natural attacks?

the_tick_rules
2007-04-29, 09:50 AM
combine improved natural attack from MM and superior natural attack from book of nine swords and a monks fists are bruce lee death. if your good add sactify and then holy ki strike and your rolling fistfuls of dice. yeah the flurry becomes pretty much a regular of full choice attacks as it gets better. you can add two weapon fighting, rules are on wizards site, but the penalties and perhaps better feat choices make it's choosing your own choice.

Matthew
2007-04-29, 06:17 PM
Nah, what you want is that Whirling Steel Ebberon Feat that lets you use a Long Sword as part of a Flurry of Blows. Start out as a Human Fighter 1 and switch into Monk... or be a Sword Sage or whatever...

Falconsflight
2007-04-29, 06:24 PM
My only question about natural attacks is this.
2,000+MW weapon price makes a 2d6 greatsword have a +1 magical bonus.
Yet, 6,000 gp for an item that increases your natural weapons with a +1 Magical Bonus. Why the extra 4k gp? Is it really THAT powerful?

NEO|Phyte
2007-04-29, 06:30 PM
Yet, 6,000 gp for an item that increases your natural weapons with a +1 Magical Bonus. Why the extra 4k gp? Is it really THAT powerful?
Oh look, I'm a thri-kreen, all 5 of my natural weapons (plus my unarmed strikes, which I can have a boatload of with MWF/flurry) are now +1.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-29, 06:30 PM
"only if the penalty means you have to roll a 20 to hit you shouldn't take a penalty to get extra attacks."

Well, if you have to roll a 20 to hit, swing as many times as you can. More chances to critical that way.

Draz74
2007-04-29, 07:08 PM
No, the proper comeback is:

"What a waste. While the rest of us were having fun and talking to girls, you were at home in the monastery, learning to use your 'bare hands,' if you get my drift."
"So... lonely... and for what? Bwaaaaaaah!"
"There, there. It's not your fault your class fails to achieve its basic design intent. Now get the hell out of here before a man with a REAL class decides to change the meaning of the phrase, 'fighting unarmed.'"

Ironic that this quote about a "real class" comes from a TWF Ranger ... :smallamused:

Ramza00
2007-04-29, 07:14 PM
My only question about natural attacks is this.
2,000+MW weapon price makes a 2d6 greatsword have a +1 magical bonus.
Yet, 6,000 gp for an item that increases your natural weapons with a +1 Magical Bonus. Why the extra 4k gp? Is it really THAT powerful?
The amulet cost is due to the fact it is on a bad slot according to this article
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050111a

Make it a gauntlet or glove of mighty fits and suddenly the cost goes down to 4,000 gp. The 4,000 gp is about right since it affects unarmed strikes and natural weapons, thus if you twf (or mwf with Thri Keen), or if you have natural attacks (like a warforged) they also get the benefits of the gloves of mighty fists.

The relevant text from the article I linked



Sometimes, a player doesn't want an entirely new item, just something with a few alterations. For example, a player with a monk character would love to have an amulet of mighty fists, but she has grown to depend on the extra protection she gets from her amulet of natural armor. So, the inevitable question arises: Does an amulet of mighty fists have to be an amulet? The answer is of course not! However, that begs another question: If not an amulet, what kind of item should it be?

The Body Slot Affinities sidebar on page 288 in the Dungeon Master's Guide can help answer the second question. A look at the table there shows that bracers (combat), gauntlets (destructive power), or even a belt (physical improvement) are the most appropriate alternatives. Considering that our example monk wants to pound foes with her fists and that she probably already owns bracers of armor, gauntlets probably are the best bet. So, what should the gauntlets cost?

You can reasonably assume that a pair of gauntlets of mighty fists ought to have the same base cost and market price as the amulet (6,000 to 150,000 gp), depending on the enhancement bonus the item provides. The +1 version (6,000 gp) has a monetary cost to create of 3,000 gp (half the base price) and an experience cost of 240 XP (1/25th the base cost).

On the other hand, a +1 magic weapon (such as a +1 spiked gauntlet) costs only 2,000 gp (for the magical enhancement). Another quick look at the table on page 288 of the Dungeon Master's Guide shows that the amulet slot is best for items that involve protection and discernment, not attack, so it's a good bet that the amulet's price already had an adjustment for an uncustomary item slot. That makes sense, because almost any creature can wear an amulet or necklace and the amulet works on unarmed attacks and natural weaponry. The amulet of mighty fists probably also is intended for familiars and animal companions as well as monks.

That uncustomary item slot adjustment is x 1.5 (see Table 7-33), so the base cost and market price for the gauntlets would be 4,000 gp (6,000/1.5). The item should have the same caster level as a magic weapon with the same enhancement bonus (3 x the bonus), and it would require the Craft Wondrous item feat.

Okay, what happens if the character in question already has magic gauntlets, too, or just wants to keep that glove/gauntlet item slot available for some other useful item, such as gauntlets of ogre power or gloves of Dexterity? That's not a problem, either. There's no reason why someone could not create a robe of mighty fists, or a vest of mighty fists. Such items should have the same cost as the amulet (remember that we're assuming the amulet already has a cost increase of 50% for an uncustomary slot), so a +1 vest or robe of mighty fists would have a market price of 6,000 gp.

DMs who just aren't inclined to give the monk a break on such items might want to charge 6,000 gp for the amulet or gauntlets and 9,000 gp for the robe or the vest. I think that's excessive, and I suspect that most players would, too.

Person_Man
2007-04-29, 08:35 PM
Re: Flurry

X-Y=Z

Where:
X = Enemy's AC
Y = Your total to hit mod
Z = # you need to roll to hit

If Z is = or greater then 20, you should always Flurry.
If Z is between 17-19, you may not want to Flurry. You have to work out your expected damage to find out. Expected Damage = % change of hitting * average damage * # of attacks. Sometimes mathematically more advantageous not to Flurry.
If Z is = or less then 16, you should always Flurry.


Re: Why Monks Suck

As has been explain a million times, melee builds are less powerful then full casters. And if you are a melee build, you're main job is to stand in the way of enemies so that they don't kill the arcane casters, absorb attacks, and deal respectable damage each turn.

Monks primarily use unarmed attacks, which makes getting effective Reach more difficult, which makes effective battlefield control far more difficult.
It's far more expensive for them to get high AC.
Due to MAD and d8 hit points, its far more difficult for them to absorb damage.
Due to MAD and mediocre BAB, their To-Hit is generally lower, therefore their expected damage is generally lower.
The easiest and sometimes best sources of melee damage are Power Attack and Leap Attack. Due to mediocre BAB and the one-handed Flurry restriction, their damage output generally lags behind any full BAB class.

Also, their defensive abilities are duplicative. Why do you need high Saves, and Improved Evasion, and Immunities, and SR? You don't. You just need high SR, or high Saves with normal Evasion and Mettle, or very high hit points and a party member with Greater Dispel Magic memorized.

There's nothing intrinsically wrong or inferior about playing a weak class, or a poorly built weak class. But if other party members don't suck, then it makes everything more frustrating for you (Gah, how come I never do anything useful, the other players must be luckier then me!) and more difficult for the DM (Great, how am I supposed to create challenging encounters for the Cleric, the Wizard, and the Beguiler, when the Monk gets killed every encounter?)

Turcano
2007-04-29, 09:02 PM
Ironic that this quote about a "real class" comes from a TWF Ranger ... :smallamused:

Well, what he lacks in decent class features, he make up for with sheer ferocity.

Oh, you also get an interwebs cookie for catching the reference.
(::)

Talya
2007-04-29, 10:29 PM
There's nothing intrinsically wrong or inferior about playing a weak class, or a poorly built weak class. But if other party members don't suck, then it makes everything more frustrating for you (Gah, how come I never do anything useful, the other players must be luckier then me!) and more difficult for the DM (Great, how am I supposed to create challenging encounters for the Cleric, the Wizard, and the Beguiler, when the Monk gets killed every encounter?)

Actually, the main problem with monks is that they don't do enough damage. They are already quite hard to kill, with almost utter invulnerability to magic, and cheaply-had high armor class (+6 periapt of wisdom, +6 gloves of dexterity, +8 bracers of armor, monk's belt), as well as more mobility than anybody not flying. So they're going to get ignored in most fights...unless they specialized in tripping or grappling. Someone who's hard to kill but can't hurt you is the last guy you worry about killing.

As for duplicative defense, I like that. They have high touch ac, SR, evasion, and saves, meaning just about anything you can think of throwing at them is going to have a good chance of failing. I don't think there's a spell in the game that isn't affected by one of those defenses.

the_tick_rules
2007-04-29, 10:35 PM
My only question about natural attacks is this.
2,000+MW weapon price makes a 2d6 greatsword have a +1 magical bonus.
Yet, 6,000 gp for an item that increases your natural weapons with a +1 Magical Bonus. Why the extra 4k gp? Is it really THAT powerful?

i've always thought the amulets of mighty fist were over-priced myself.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-04-29, 10:49 PM
Yes. Four unarmed (if powerful) attacks that with the right feats overcome damage reduction on most mundane creatures. But what is it they lack? Oh yeah, enchantability.

for 600 GP you can have a "Necklace of Natural Attacks" that you can use as a base for enchanting your natrual attacks as if they were weapons. Savage Species.

Also, if you want to burn a feat, you can take "Hands as Weapons" from Arcana Evolved (Monte cook's take on DnD) and enchant them thataway.

Naturally, a VoP monk cannot use these to get enchantments, not even from the party Wizzie or Sorc or etcetera.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-30, 12:53 AM
cheaply-had high armor class (+6 periapt of wisdom, +6 gloves of dexterity, +8 bracers of armor, monk's belt)

Nothing cheap about that array. More costly than the fighter's gear, for sure.

A Gray Phantom
2007-04-30, 03:47 AM
I simply don't understand how flurry of blows works... I mean, if it works the way I think it does, then you don't get four attacks until 11th level.

Also, isn't the only way to use a flurry is by using a full attack action?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-04-30, 04:21 AM
I simply don't understand how flurry of blows works... I mean, if it works the way I think it does, then you don't get four attacks until 11th level.

Correct.


Also, isn't the only way to use a flurry is by using a full attack action?


Yes.

A Gray Phantom
2007-04-30, 04:24 AM
:smallbiggrin: Thank you!

Skjaldbakka
2007-04-30, 05:36 AM
I have never found monk to under-powered. They just have a specialized role. That role is not 'stand here and draw aggro'. That role is 'we need to deal with X threat'. The monk's high AC, high movement rate and awesome resistant to magic, along with his movement based skills and abundant step, make him the best guy to get to the enemy spellcaster/archer/other ranged threat. Not to mention Sun School.

Also, nothing says a monk can't use weapons. A monk flurrying with energy-enchanted weapons gets a decent damage output.

I once played a dwarven monk/occult slayer/tattooed monk who took every spell slot from a higher level sorceror without going down. He probably could have took him down with a stunning fist or in a grapple, but he liked to taunt spellcasters that way.

Wulfram
2007-04-30, 05:41 AM
Of course, since your fists are mindless, they can't be enchanted. They could be imbued, enhanced or other adjectives though.

When the sorceress enchanted his fists, the monk began to regret having them enhanced to be intelligent items

Matthew
2007-04-30, 07:58 AM
I have never found monk to under-powered. They just have a specialized role. That role is not 'stand here and draw aggro'. That role is 'we need to deal with X threat'. The monk's high AC, high movement rate and awesome resistant to magic, along with his movement based skills and abundant step, make him the best guy to get to the enemy spellcaster/archer/other ranged threat. Not to mention Sun School.

Also, nothing says a monk can't use weapons. A monk flurrying with energy-enchanted weapons gets a decent damage output.

I once played a dwarven monk/occult slayer/tattooed monk who took every spell slot from a higher level sorceror without going down. He probably could have took him down with a stunning fist or in a grapple, but he liked to taunt spellcasters that way.
Hmmn, I would say the opposite, that they have a fairly general role. Monks generally do not have a great AC, as far as I am aware. I rather suspect that their role also changes as they gain levels.

Talya
2007-04-30, 08:31 AM
Hmmn, I would say the opposite, that they have a fairly general role. Monks generally do not have a great AC, as far as I am aware. I rather suspect that their role also changes as they gain levels.

A monk is one of those classes that really suffers from a low point buy. If it's high enough (or they roll high), they end up with fairly high armor class. The fighter's armor class is going to be nearly the same no matter what his point buy/roll ends up being.

Their AC can easily equal a fighter's, even surpass it. What's better still is their touch AC is very high. Flatfooted is only so-so. In the unlikely event that a monk starts with 18 dex and wis, they're going to have 28 armor class from Dex and Wis alone by level 20. (28 touch, 22 flatfooted.) That's not including any other equipment they have that grants other armor bonuses. Apart from a pair of gloves and little periapt, they're naked there.

I think in order to balance monks vs. fighters, you need to change a few things:

1) Let them enchant their body as a weapon. Through magic tatoos or some other factor, let them enchant themselves so they do the additional damage and get the attack bonus without having to use up another precious equipment slot.

2) Let them use flurry of blows as a standard action. Not the iterative attacks, just the 1-2 extra attacks at full BAB.

3) Go with 3.0's idea of making iterative attacks at a -3 modifier rather than -5. So at 20 a flurrying monk would be +15/+15/+15/+12/+9/+6/+3. (Yes, I know that's 4 iterative attacks rather than 2.)

Huh, if they were silly enough to take greater two weapon fighting, they'd have +13/+13/+13/+13/+10/+8/+7/+4/+3/+1.

Starbuck_II
2007-04-30, 08:34 AM
I simply don't understand how flurry of blows works... I mean, if it works the way I think it does, then you don't get four attacks until 11th level.

Also, isn't the only way to use a flurry is by using a full attack action?
Think of Flurry as an extra attack. And an additional one at level 11 with Greater Flurry. It starts with a penalty, but penalty slowly goes away.

That is all it does.

Simple really.

And yes, Flurry must be the full attack action: so no spring attack flurries.

Draz74
2007-04-30, 10:40 AM
As for duplicative defense, I like that. They have high touch ac, SR, evasion, and saves, meaning just about anything you can think of throwing at them is going to have a good chance of failing. I don't think there's a spell in the game that isn't affected by one of those defenses.

Forcecage ... :smalltongue:

Wall of Force. Acid Fog. Solid Fog. Black Tentacles (though Monks can have decent grappling, if they spend resources on it). Reverse Gravity (in the open).

Person_Man
2007-04-30, 11:04 AM
Hmmn, I would say the opposite, that they have a fairly general role. Monks generally do not have a great AC, as far as I am aware. I rather suspect that their role also changes as they gain levels.

Yeah, I'm with Matthew on this.

A Monk's AC = Wis+Dex+magic. Any melee build's AC=Mithral full plate+16 Dex+animated shield+magic. So relatively early, any melee build can get 20ish+ AC for a cheap price. A Monk has a hard time at early levels catching up to Mithral full plate, and will always lack a shield bonus. While their Dex and Wis bonuses will eventually surpass that, the melee build has put those points into Con (hit points) and Str (to-hit and damage).

A Monk's scouting ability is decent, but not as good as a Ranger, Rogue, or Scout (duh).

As multiple people have demonstrated, a Monk's damage output is meh.

If you want someone who is specialized at killing spellcasters, I suggest a Paladin or Blackguard or Hexblade on a mount. They'll be much better at it.

Talya
2007-04-30, 11:35 AM
So relatively early, any melee build can get 20ish+ AC for a cheap price.

Mithral Full Plate costs 10,500gp. Assuming the 25% of your starting wealth for any single item as per RAW, you could have one starting at level 10. You could even add a bit of enchantment to it, too.

As for shield bonuses, "Ring of Force Shield" is a neat little item.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-04-30, 12:17 PM
It may be "neat", but it is also rather expensive. (8500 GP for a +2 AC bonus)

Not only does it suck (mechanically) to be a monk it is also expensive.

Foxpaw
2007-04-30, 02:35 PM
Yes. So you rely on your caster friend even more than a fighter does, as you can't permanently enchant your fists.

I think more than a few people in this thread have missed the fact that Flurry of Blows does not necessarily mean that you are unarmed.


When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham).

So no, you can't magically imbue anything into your fists, but you can get some enhancements on some kama, or a quarterstaff, or whatever, and still use Flurry of Blows with it.

Matthew
2007-04-30, 06:25 PM
Hmmn. We were talking about that, I think, especially the Eberron Whirling Steel Strike Feat that allows Monks to Flurry with Long Swords.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-30, 06:28 PM
Not only does it suck (mechanically) to be a monk it is also expensive.

The expensive of playing a monk always struck me as backwards and contrary to the flavor of the class.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-05-01, 01:39 AM
Indeed.

VoP practically screams for a Monk, but that only works if you are running a cheapskate campaign. (Reduced WBL)

Penguinizer
2007-05-01, 05:53 AM
Four attacks that barely hits, and barely do any damage.

And by the time they do hit, a fighter/barbarian will be power attacking for far more damage.

Normal Monk isn't worth it even for flurry.



I had a level 7 monk that did around 4d6 or 4d8 unarmed + a decent strength bonus. It also had 2 natural attacks with which to powerattack.

Hypothetical
2007-05-01, 06:41 AM
Flurry is a FTW move. At low levels it gives the Monk an extra attack, which even with the penelty could prove useful.

And then, you have to look at the quick advancement of the Monks Unarmed Attack Bonus. By level 3, the penlety is no penelty.

At this point, a smart Monk takes Vow of Poverty. Suddenly he's got the same AC as a Fighter in full plate Mail. ( A Monk who doesn't take Sacred Vow as his first feat....is Gimped...) ( I'm assuming a non-human Monk here...)

At level four, the smart move is to go Nimbus of Light for the bonus Exalated Feat. At level 6 it's Sactify Natural Attack. ( An Unarmed attack is a Natural Attack....) +5 to Attack anyone????

From this point on Monk's become the ultimate Tank. Multi-attacks, and high Defense without any movement peleties because of heavy armor.

Talya
2007-05-01, 07:07 AM
Three words:

Goliath Monk Grappler.

(No, their hand to hand damage is still medium. They grapple like a large creature, though. And if you take the right feats, they can make full attacks with a large-sized light weapon while grappling.)

Talya
2007-05-01, 02:57 PM
Damn, Hypothetical, I'd never looked at the Aescetic template from Exalted's vow of poverty that closely before. You are right...not only does it rock on it's own right, but it cures that MAD problem monks have too. Absolutely a must have for monks.


Forcecage ...

Wall of Force.

Monks can dimension door.


Acid Fog. Solid Fog.

Dimension door and/or etherealness.


Black Tentacles (though Monks can have decent grappling, if they spend resources on it).

Etherealness. Or just beat the grapple.


Reverse Gravity (in the open).

Huh.

Yeah. Dimension door, but you only use that once a day, so I'm feeling lame by using it as an escape clause from three spells.

Caelestion
2007-05-01, 04:39 PM
Which only goes to show that anything can beat anything given a bit of building and some advance knowledge.

Turcano
2007-05-01, 05:01 PM
Monks can dimension door.
...
Dimension door and/or etherealness.
...
Etherealness. Or just beat the grapple.
...
Huh.

Yeah. Dimension door, but you only use that once a day, so I'm feeling lame by using it as an escape clause from three spells.

You do realize that anyone capable of doing any of those things to you is also capable of using dimensional anchor, right?

Talya
2007-05-01, 05:14 PM
Dimensional anchor is subject to the monk's spell resistance.

Yes, I know, the second time around you'll assay spell resistance on him. Of course, he's already used his dimension door on you so it won't matter, and you're wasting more ruby dust and a whole lot of spells...

Turcano
2007-05-01, 05:33 PM
Dimensional anchor is subject to the monk's spell resistance.

Yes, I know, the second time around you'll assay spell resistance on him. Of course, he's already used his dimension door on you so it won't matter, and you're wasting more ruby dust and a whole lot of spells...

Yeah, but that's why wizards carry rods of quicken spell around with them. And most wizards would save forcecage for opponents with good saves like monks; resilient sphere is more cost-effective for your average melee type, provided you use a cloudkill first.

Indon
2007-05-01, 05:56 PM
Yeah, but that's why wizards carry rods of quicken spell around with them. And most wizards would save forcecage for opponents with good saves like monks; resilient sphere is more cost-effective for your average melee type, provided you use a cloudkill first.

Hmm. A rod of Quicken Spell strikes me as rather awkward; you would need to either hold the rod just in case you need it (hands filled with their Luck Blades and Rods of Maximize Spells for the ever-popular Timestop, right?), or take the Quick Draw feat. Otherwise, you'd need to take an action to be able to cast a spell without taking an action.

Theodoxus
2007-05-01, 06:15 PM
This is my monk (human, starting with 16 Dex, 18 Wis)...

Lvl Feats and Special Abilities
1 Sacred Vow (+2 Diplomacy), Vow of Poverty, Stunning Fist, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, +4 AC
2 Vow of Non-Violence (+4 DC on Stunning Fist if non-lethal), Combat Reflexes, Evasion
3 Still Mind, +10' movement, +5 AC, Endure Elements, Weapon Focus: Unarmed
4 Vow of Peace*, Exalted Strike +1 (magic), Ki Strike (magic), Slow fall 20', 1d8 damage
5 Purity of Body, Sustanence
6 Improved Disarm, Slowfall 30', +10' movement, +6 AC, Deflection +1, Subdueing Strike, Hindering Opportunist
7 Resistance +1, Wis +2, Wholeness of Body
8 Slowfall 40', 1d10 damage, Natural Armor: +1, Mind Shielding, Nymph's Kiss (+2 Chr skills, +1 vs spells, +1 skillpoint / lvl)
9 Improved evasion, +10' movement, +7 AC, Dodge
10 Ki strike (Lawful), Slowfall 50', Exalted Strike +2 (good), Damage Reduction 5/magic, Nimbus of Light (+2 Diplo, Sense Mot)
11 Wis +2, Dex +2, Diamond Body, Greater Flurry
12 Abundant Step, Slowfall 60', +10' movement, 2d6 damage, +8 AC, Deflection +2, Greater Sustanence, Stigmata (exalted), Combat Expertise
13 Diamond Soul, Resistance +2, Energy Resistance 5
14 Exalted Strike +3, Freedom of movement, Intuitive attack (wis for str to hit), Slowfall 70'
15 Quivering Palm, +10' movement, +9 AC, +2 Wis, +2 Dex, +2 Chr, Damage Reduction 5/evil, Melee evasion
16 Natural Armor +2, Holy Radiance, Ki Strike: Adamantine, Slowfall 80', 2d8 damage
17 Exalted Strike +4, Resistance +3, Regeneration, Timeless body, Tongue of sun and moon
18 Slowfall 90', +10' movement, +10 AC, Deflection +3, true seeing, Vow of Purity, Negotiator
19 Damage Reduction 10/evil, +2 Wis, +2 Dex, +2 Chr, +2 Con, Empty Body
20 Perfect Self, Slowfall -, 2d10 damage, Exalted Strike +5, Energy Resistance 15, Vow of Abstinance

AC at 1st level starts at 21. By 20th, it's 57. You'd be hard pressed to do that with items...

Ramza00
2007-05-01, 06:26 PM
Hmm. A rod of Quicken Spell strikes me as rather awkward; you would need to either hold the rod just in case you need it (hands filled with their Luck Blades and Rods of Maximize Spells for the ever-popular Timestop, right?), or take the Quick Draw feat. Otherwise, you'd need to take an action to be able to cast a spell without taking an action.

Well a rod of quicken is kinda expensive, with the new belt of battle though in the Magic Item Compendium, it is now 12,000 gp per day (once per encounter though) to effectively quicken any spell. Takes your belt slot.

Talya
2007-05-01, 06:30 PM
although drawing an item is part of a move action, so you could still quicken and cast again.

Ramza00
2007-05-01, 06:32 PM
Vow of Peace is very bad for it gives penalties to your party members for almost every form of encounter. Unless you are doing an undead only campaign or similar where you aren't targeting humanoids or monstrous humanoid creatures its a very bad idea.(Vow of Nonviolence a pre-requisite for Vow of Peace is what gives you all the ally penalties)

Without Vow of Peace, Vow of Poverty can give you similar AC to what you can get at those levels at items, in the end items give better AC than VoP and this is ignoring the main loss of VoP for a monk, the lack of items granting flight or similar options for you aren't always fighting in a hallway that has a ceiling 10 feet high.

Theodoxus
2007-05-01, 06:35 PM
Maybe for you... I love the flavor of it, and the challenge. Plus undead campaigns aren't that rare.

Ramza00
2007-05-01, 06:51 PM
Maybe for you... I love the flavor of it, and the challenge. Plus undead campaigns aren't that rare.

Loving the Flavor
and the
Challenge

aren't something that are "good from an optimization" standpoint. If you like it go right ahead and play it, its your choice, I hope you are happy :smallsmile: There is a difference between saying its fun and saying its good from an optimization standpoint. You alluded in post 64 that it is a good from an optimization standpoint due to your high AC, I pointed out in my following post the very big compromise you and your party have to make with Vow of Peace/Non Violence

Talya
2007-05-01, 06:52 PM
the lack of items granting flight or similar options for you aren't always fighting in a hallway that has a ceiling 10 feet high.

1. Flight needs to be a special thing. Most characters should not be able to fly in most campaigns.

2. If you really want to fly, there are two easy options available to the VoP monk:
--Aasimar with Outsider wings feat, or
--Leadership feat, large flying cohort capable of being ridden, such as a pegasus or a metallic dragon (you're already in the book of exalted deeds, no issues with using exalted cohorts.)

Talya
2007-05-01, 06:58 PM
the lack of items granting flight or similar options for you aren't always fighting in a hallway that has a ceiling 10 feet high.

1. Flight needs to be a special thing. Most characters should not be able to fly in most campaigns.

2. If you really want to fly, there are two easy options available to the VoP monk:
--Aasimar with Outsider wings feat*, or
--Leadership feat, large flying cohort capable of being ridden, such as a pegasus or a metallic dragon (you're already in the book of exalted deeds, no issues with using exalted cohorts.)

*You can easily replace this with any race capable of flight. The Averiel's +3 LA is nasty, but they have great monk ability modifiers.

Roderick_BR
2007-05-01, 07:20 PM
Yeah, but that's why wizards carry rods of quicken spell around with them. And most wizards would save forcecage for opponents with good saves like monks; resilient sphere is more cost-effective for your average melee type, provided you use a cloudkill first.
And what if the DM doesn't allow rods of metamagic, for believing they are too broken? In ALL his games?:smallamused:

Talya
2007-05-01, 08:02 PM
oh, and 10 bonus exalted feats in addition to many of the other abilities in the aescetic template cannot be duplicated by equipment.

The_Snark
2007-05-01, 08:23 PM
oh, and 10 bonus exalted feats in addition to many of the other abilities in the aescetic template cannot be duplicated by equipment.

Problem is, there aren't very many good exalted feats. Vow of Noviolence/Vow of Peace are useful only to a certain character concept, and can creature problems with the party. The rest of the Oath feats give you very specific bonuses, which can often be gotten more easily; not bad, but for a monk with high saves, not really covering weaknesses. The other feats aren't all that much; Touch of Golden Ice looks great for a monk, but that DC 13 Fortitude save isn't much of a challenge after only a few levels. Sanctify Natural Attack (and its equivalents) give you an unexciting +1 damage. A bit more against evil outsiders. Sanctify Ki Strike opens the way for Holy Ki Strike, which is admittedly good, but that requires a 15 Charisma that most monk's won't have. Nymph's Kiss is decent. Fist of the Heavens and Intuitive Attack are sometimes useful.

The monk's not necessarily that bad, but he can't do as much damage as most fighters or barbarians will be able to. I think monks are a pretty good tool to use against spellcasters; in the above example, the wizard has been having to blow two or three spells on keeping the monk down. That's one or two rounds in which the party's wizard can be throwing off his own Greater Dispel Magic/Finger of Death. And he can't just ignore the monk; even a monk's damage will eat into the wizard's health with a flurry or two, and then there's tripping and grappling.

Turcano
2007-05-01, 08:43 PM
And what if the DM doesn't allow rods of metamagic, for believing they are too broken? In ALL his games?:smallamused:

Then you're crossing the border into Houseruleland, the land where anything is possible. :smalltongue:

Anyway, you can still pull the combo off without metamagic rods, it's just more of a pain, since you have to use a high-level spell slot for it.

brian c
2007-05-01, 09:20 PM
Talya, I like monks too but I admit that they're underpowered compared to other melee fighters, even with Vow of Poverty and Vow of Peace. If there were some better Exalted combat feats, that could change a little bit (and I'm hoping Complete Champion will have new exalted feats, but no guarantee). Monks have a lot of things going for them, but they still can't stand up to an optimally played wizard.

Falconsflight
2007-05-01, 09:25 PM
I don't know why people are so down on monks. I just made one that has, at level 20, +25/+25/+25/+25/+20/+15 to hit with 6d8+23 per hit and can ignore Armor bonus when attacking. HE can strike at 35 ft away, can fly, Has SR 18, Everyone attacking him has a 20% miss chance, and he can enchant his fists with Flame, Frost, or Shock, or their burst counterparts. This means he can take down a tarrasque in at most four turns BY HIMSELF, as long as he had a wish handy.

Matthew
2007-05-01, 09:41 PM
Well, then, present the build and compare him to another Character of the same level.

Talya
2007-05-01, 10:06 PM
Talya, I like monks too but I admit that they're underpowered compared to other melee fighters, even with Vow of Poverty and Vow of Peace.


1st of all I wouldn't touch vow of peace.

Monks have some damage issues compared to other melee fighters, absolutely...although I think Vow of Poverty makes up a lot of that really quickly.

The Single biggest issue with monks is one of MAD. For a monk to come close to a fighter's effectiveness in melee combat, if the fighter had, say, 18 strength and 18 constitution, a monk would need 18 strength, dexterity, constitution and wisdom. They need 4 times the point buy as an equivalent fighter to be as good in melee.

Of course, they probably shouldn't be quite as good in melee, as they are for the most part immune to magic.

And yes, Wizards are more poweful. They're more powerful than any class. However, if you were to pick from among the core classes which melee combatant is most likely to luck out and beat a wizard, monk would be the one.

Ramza00
2007-05-01, 10:27 PM
And yes, Wizards are more poweful. They're more powerful than any class. However, if you were to pick from among the core classes which melee combatant is most likely to luck out and beat a wizard, monk would be the one.

Thing is D&D is a team game usually and not pvp, it isn't survivability that matters its what you can contribute to the party how can you end battle sooner. Monk is one of those classes that just doesn't contribute much. Best thing you can do really is a cavalry forcing the mage to focus on him instead of everybody else.

Of course a Monk 2/Paladin X with a flying mount will do it better even in core. (Even with the additional MAD). Monk is too front loaded and after 1,2,6 levels it is just not worth it.

Now I can make a great monk archetype with other classes (swordsage), prestige, and/or spells but then you won't be a full monk class anymore.

Tor the Fallen
2007-05-02, 02:30 AM
This is my monk (human, starting with 16 Dex, 18 Wis)...

Lvl Feats and Special Abilities
1 Sacred Vow (+2 Diplomacy), Vow of Poverty, Stunning Fist, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, +4 AC
2 Vow of Non-Violence (+4 DC on Stunning Fist if non-lethal), Combat Reflexes, Evasion
3 Still Mind, +10' movement, +5 AC, Endure Elements, Weapon Focus: Unarmed
4 Vow of Peace*, Exalted Strike +1 (magic), Ki Strike (magic), Slow fall 20', 1d8 damage
5 Purity of Body, Sustanence
6 Improved Disarm, Slowfall 30', +10' movement, +6 AC, Deflection +1, Subdueing Strike, Hindering Opportunist
7 Resistance +1, Wis +2, Wholeness of Body
8 Slowfall 40', 1d10 damage, Natural Armor: +1, Mind Shielding, Nymph's Kiss (+2 Chr skills, +1 vs spells, +1 skillpoint / lvl)
9 Improved evasion, +10' movement, +7 AC, Dodge
10 Ki strike (Lawful), Slowfall 50', Exalted Strike +2 (good), Damage Reduction 5/magic, Nimbus of Light (+2 Diplo, Sense Mot)
11 Wis +2, Dex +2, Diamond Body, Greater Flurry
12 Abundant Step, Slowfall 60', +10' movement, 2d6 damage, +8 AC, Deflection +2, Greater Sustanence, Stigmata (exalted), Combat Expertise
13 Diamond Soul, Resistance +2, Energy Resistance 5
14 Exalted Strike +3, Freedom of movement, Intuitive attack (wis for str to hit), Slowfall 70'
15 Quivering Palm, +10' movement, +9 AC, +2 Wis, +2 Dex, +2 Chr, Damage Reduction 5/evil, Melee evasion
16 Natural Armor +2, Holy Radiance, Ki Strike: Adamantine, Slowfall 80', 2d8 damage
17 Exalted Strike +4, Resistance +3, Regeneration, Timeless body, Tongue of sun and moon
18 Slowfall 90', +10' movement, +10 AC, Deflection +3, true seeing, Vow of Purity, Negotiator
19 Damage Reduction 10/evil, +2 Wis, +2 Dex, +2 Chr, +2 Con, Empty Body
20 Perfect Self, Slowfall -, 2d10 damage, Exalted Strike +5, Energy Resistance 15, Vow of Abstinance

AC at 1st level starts at 21. By 20th, it's 57. You'd be hard pressed to do that with items...

Why not play a rock?
It has hardness, and about equal usefulness.

Talya
2007-05-02, 06:00 AM
Why not play a rock?
It has hardness, and about equal usefulness.

One can argue what you just said about any melee class, including tome of battle ones. Hell, you can argue that everyone should play wizards, you don't even want CoDZilla at upper levels, but how much fun is that?

A monk build using Vow of Poverty should easily be equalling...if not outdamaging... a fighter, as well as being tougher (both physically and especially vs. magic.)

Vow of Poverty Monk
Attacks: +31/+31/+31/+26/+21
Damage: 2d10+12+(2d6 holy damage -- No DR or ER in the game will block holy damage, will it?)
Secondary utility: Battlefield Control (Stunning Fist, Grappling, Tripping, Disarm, combat reflexes)


Fighter (power attacking for -6/+12)
Attacks: +31/+26/+21/+16
Damage: 2d6+35+(1d6 energy of your choice.)
Secondary Utility: None.

Total damage there is going to be very, very close, unless the opponent has very low armor class.

Hypothetical
2007-05-02, 06:11 AM
Vow of Peace is very bad for it gives penalties to your party members for almost every form of encounter. Unless you are doing an undead only campaign or similar where you aren't targeting humanoids or monstrous humanoid creatures its a very bad idea.(Vow of Nonviolence a pre-requisite for Vow of Peace is what gives you all the ally penalties)

Without Vow of Peace, Vow of Poverty can give you similar AC to what you can get at those levels at items, in the end items give better AC than VoP and this is ignoring the main loss of VoP for a monk, the lack of items granting flight or similar options for you aren't always fighting in a hallway that has a ceiling 10 feet high.

Read the VoN-V discriptor again. Lots of people make this same mistake.

The only time that VoN-V effects your party members is if they attack a defensless foe. ( AKA, a prisoner.) Period.

With VoN-V, and VoPeace, your character is only restricted to dealing Non-Lethal damage, not to dealing no damage at all.

VoPoverty also grants, by 10th level, a +6/+4/+2 add to any three ability scores. A smart monk goes +6 Wis, +4 Str, +2 Cha. ( Unless they gimped Cha at creation, in which case they might chose to go +4 Cha, +2 Str instead.)

Also, and I've posted this elsewhere, my Monk is on a mission. At level 14 I'm going to Prestige Class over to Apostle of Peace. ( Assuming of course I don't pull another stupid stunt and assault a Fort with me and just 3 other PCs..for that story see the thread "Bad Times to roll a natural 20", and get wiped. It was an accident, I didn't mean it to go down like it did, but dammit it worked!)

There's actually a very long Backstory to this. I'm playing a Race, known as a Vlaar ( HOMEBREWED, duh) that up until 16,000 years ago fought exclusivly on the side of evil, working directly for Oblivion himself. At the time they were a Race that had what was known as an Anti-Soul, granted to them by Oblivion. When Oblivion was defeated, shortly before the Sundering, which tore the world apart, the Vlaar lost even thier Anti-Souls. Centuries later they discovered that, if they were to perform deeds that either rated as Heroicly Good, or Vilely Evil, they could aquire a Soul. My Monk has decided that trying to bring Peace to the shattered Realms of the world, just might qualify him for a Good Soul, and earn him an afterlife. ( There's a metric F**k ton more to this story, but I don't feel like typing for the next 2 hours telling it.)

Tor the Fallen
2007-05-02, 06:23 AM
One can argue what you just said about any melee class, including tome of battle ones. Hell, you can argue that everyone should play wizards, you don't even want CoDZilla at upper levels, but how much fun is that?

Look at his feat selections. They only let him attack three monster types. Three.

Talya
2007-05-02, 06:56 AM
Look at his feat selections. They only let him attack three monster types. Three.

That's not true. He can fight anything. He just has to deal non-lethal damage.

Tyrael
2007-05-02, 06:12 PM
And yes, Flurry must be the full attack action: so no spring attack flurries.

Unless you're a Dervish.