Getting a Bard into Swiftblade

[Heliomance]

I'm trying to build a character and I might be trying to jam more into it than can possibly go.

I started with a Swiftblade.
Then I thought that Snowflake Wardance might be nice to combine with it, which means going in with a Bard.
Then I thought that a nice way of making the lost caster levels of Swiftblade less painful would be to mix it with Sublime Chord.
Then I hit an issue. Ideally, I'd like to get 4 levels of Swiftblade in by level 10, so that I'm losing out on fewer Sublime Chord caster levels. But a Bard only gets 3rd level spells at level 7, which only leaves three levels before you can take the first Sublime Chord level at 11. Is there any way to get into Swiftblade with reasonable amounts of Bardic Music by level 6?

[Xerlith]

Extra Spell: Haste, using the Trapsmith spell list. The smell of gouda is a bit overwhelming, though.

[nedz]

Sorcerer 5 / Prestige Bard 2 with Extra Music, avoids needing Sublime Chord at all.

[Heliomance]

Sorcerer 5 / Prestige Bard 2 with Extra Music, avoids needing Sublime Chord at all.

Ah, that sounds very good - and also potentially allows for Greater Draconic Rite of Passage shenanigans if I use a kobold. Downside is that it gets very few Bardic Music uses, so not much Snowflake Wardance.

[AvatarVecna]

Bard 1/Sha'ir 5 get you 3rd lvl spellcasting based on Charisma that can cast Haste; depending on whether or not I've read the table wrong, you might need to take the Extra Spell: Haste feat, since the Sha'ir apparently can cast 3rd level spells at level 5, but doesn't actually know any 3rd level spells until level 6. For a decent amount of Bardic Music, Extra Music is your friend (spend a feat, gain 4 additional uses of Bardic Music per day); this feat can be taken multiple times, but I don't think you should need to take it more than once or twice until the really high levels.

[nedz]

Ah, that sounds very good - and also potentially allows for Greater Draconic Rite of Passage shenanigans if I use a kobold. Downside is that it gets very few Bardic Music uses, so not much Snowflake Wardance.



...
You can use your bardic music four extra times per day.
...
You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.

So 6x day to start with, 10x for two feat picks.

Ed: Snowflake lasts a number of rounds — just how many combats do you get into each day ?

[Heliomance]

So 6x day to start with, 10x for two feat picks.

Ed: Snowflake lasts a number of rounds — just how many combats do you get into each day ?

One Extra Music should probably be enough, but it's probably safe to assume that you'd want to use both Snowflake Wardance and Inspire Courage every combat.

[nedz]

One Extra Music should probably be enough, but it's probably safe to assume that you'd want to use both Snowflake Wardance and Inspire Courage every combat.

Yes that's what I thought. So this would limit you to 3 big fights a day. IDK how your group works and if you would need more ? You could always see how it goes and leave the option of another Extra Music available ?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Bard 1/Sha'ir 5 get you 3rd lvl spellcasting based on Charisma that can cast Haste; depending on whether or not I've read the table wrong, you might need to take the Extra Spell: Haste feat, since the Sha'ir apparently can cast 3rd level spells at level 5, but doesn't actually know any 3rd level spells until level 6. For a decent amount of Bardic Music, Extra Music is your friend (spend a feat, gain 4 additional uses of Bardic Music per day); this feat can be taken multiple times, but I don't think you should need to take it more than once or twice until the really high levels.
'
The sha'ir can cast spells they have seen but don't "know." Knowing for a sha'ir only effect how long it takes to retrieve the spell, so as long as they have successfully used spellcraft on haste once they can cast it and for that you can just pay a wizard to cast it for you until you get it right.

[Heliomance]

So current plan (for a level 17 build) is Silverbrow Human Dragonblood Sorcerer 5/Prestige Bard 2/Swiftblade 9/X 1. I don't know what to put for that last level - I wondered about Abjurant Champion, but it doesn't seem to do much for me. I also wondered about Battle Sorcerer for more BAB, or possibly Domain Access (War), for access to Divine Power. I've never really built a gish before - thoughts?

EDIT: Ooh, I've just found Spelldancer. That shares a lot of the same prereqs as Swiftblade and Snowflake Wardance. I might go for that, if I can manage to fit in enough feats for Persist Spell.

[nedz]

You could access Divine Power via Arcane Disciple since it's in several domains {Competition, Fury, Orc, Pride, War}, but that would consume a feat and a spell known. The arcane spells you have available should suffice.

As for Class X, at level 20, who cares. Will your campaign last that long ?

May as well go Archmage, or something casterly, since it's all about spells at that point.

[Heliomance]

You could access Divine Power via Arcane Disciple since it's in several domains {Competition, Fury, Orc, Pride, War}, but that would consume a feat and a spell known. The arcane spells you have available should suffice.

As for Class X, at level 20, who cares. Will your campaign last that long ?

May as well go Archmage, or something casterly, since it's all about spells at that point.

It's not level 20. I'm starting at level 17. I only have 16 levels worked out there. But I'm thinking Spelldancer is looking rather amazing.

[nedz]

It's not level 20. I'm starting at level 17. I only have 16 levels worked out there. But I'm thinking Spelldancer is looking rather amazing.

Oops sorry — missed that small detail.

Spelldancer is very good, but the feat tax is high. OK you already have three, but Endurance ?

Lyric Thaumaturge is probably worth a look — though I suspect that you have already been there ?

War Chanter is also an option, though it doesn't advance casting.

[Heliomance]

Pretty sure it's worth taking Endurance (if I can possibly fit it in) in order to get Persistent Wraithstrike and/or Bite of the Weretiger.

[atemu1234]

Bard 1/Sha'ir 5 get you 3rd lvl spellcasting based on Charisma that can cast Haste; depending on whether or not I've read the table wrong, you might need to take the Extra Spell: Haste feat, since the Sha'ir apparently can cast 3rd level spells at level 5, but doesn't actually know any 3rd level spells until level 6. For a decent amount of Bardic Music, Extra Music is your friend (spend a feat, gain 4 additional uses of Bardic Music per day); this feat can be taken multiple times, but I don't think you should need to take it more than once or twice until the really high levels.

... Am I thinking Prestige Bard Sha'ir now? Yes. Yes I am.

[Flickerdart]

So current plan (for a level 17 build) is Silverbrow Human Dragonblood Sorcerer 5/Prestige Bard 2/Swiftblade 9/X 1. I don't know what to put for that last level - I wondered about Abjurant Champion, but it doesn't seem to do much for me. I also wondered about Battle Sorcerer for more BAB, or possibly Domain Access (War), for access to Divine Power. I've never really built a gish before - thoughts?

EDIT: Ooh, I've just found Spelldancer. That shares a lot of the same prereqs as Swiftblade and Snowflake Wardance. I might go for that, if I can manage to fit in enough feats for Persist Spell.
Battle Sorcerer would be a terrible option for someone who has as many prestige classes as you - for 12 lousy hit points and a point of BAB, you trade away 9 spells per day and 9 spells known. The light armor casting doesn't help you much because when you take a level of swiftblade and advance battle sorcerer casting, you do not "gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained." Because battle sorcerer's light armor casting specifies that it only works on spells derived from battle sorcerer levels, it is explicitly a benefit of class levels and thus not eligible for advancement.

[Heliomance]

Battle Sorcerer would be a terrible option for someone who has as many prestige classes as you - for 12 lousy hit points and a point of BAB, you trade away 9 spells per day and 9 spells known. The light armor casting doesn't help you much because when you take a level of swiftblade and advance battle sorcerer casting, you do not "gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained." Because battle sorcerer's light armor casting specifies that it only works on spells derived from battle sorcerer levels, it is explicitly a benefit of class levels and thus not eligible for advancement.

Without Battle Sorcerer, I don't have the BAB to qualify for Prestige Bard in time. I also dispute your interpretation of the light armor casting - it applies to Battle Sorcerer casting, and everything else advances Battle Sorcerer casting. It's a moot point though, because Prestige Bard also grants light armour casting.

I could go Sorc 6/Prestige Bard 1/Swiftblade, I guess. All I'd lose out on is one Bardic Music use, and I need to take Extra Music anyway.

[Heliomance]

Spelldancer's been banned by the DM, which gives me back a hell of a lot of feats, but means I still need to pick something to do once I'm finished with Swiftblade. What's a good thing to take one level of to cap off Sorc 6/Prestige Bard 1/Swiftblade 9?

[jiriku]

More levels of prestige bard grants plenty of skill points, more daily uses of bardic music, plus another +1 to inspire courage. You'd also get inspire competence, which isn't that great but hey it's there. Virtuoso or more levels of sublime chord would also grant you new bardic songs, and more uses of bardic music. Really any of the three would support your theme.

[Heliomance]

More levels of prestige bard grants plenty of skill points, more daily uses of bardic music, plus another +1 to inspire courage. You'd also get inspire competence, which isn't that great but hey it's there. Virtuoso or more levels of sublime chord would also grant you new bardic songs, and more uses of bardic music. Really any of the three would support your theme.

Wouldn't get another +1 to inspire courage, you don't get that until level 5 of Prestige Bard. Virtuoso drops a level of spellcasting, and I've lost enough of those already, and what's the point in going into Sublime Chord at level 17? Prestige Bard is the only viable option there, but I'm wondering if there's anything more useful available.

[nedz]

All of these have merit: Fatespinner, Mindbender, Abjurant Champion or Sand Shaper

[ComaVision]

Depending on interpretation, Chaos Music from Dragon Magazine may be strictly superior to Extra Music.

[Flickerdart]

I also dispute your interpretation of the light armor casting - it applies to Battle Sorcerer casting, and everything else advances Battle Sorcerer casting.
The wording is important, and I've already outlined why. Other armoured casting abilities, like the warmage's, don't specify "derived from class levels" but this one does, so it's explicitly not advanced.

But you're right, you get it from prestige bard anyway.

[Hiro Quester]

If you would learn time stop as a 9th feel spell anyway, then Swiftblade 10 is a very attractive option. More control over the duration. Knowing exactly how long your time stop will last is a terrific advantage (my Dm rolls the duration secretly, so you can never be sure how long it will last). I don't understand why so many people are down on that idea.

Abjurant champion's boost to your AC and free extend on abjurations is not to be uderestimated. (Esp. if you can convince your DM that Mage Armore is supposed to be extended by Abj Champ's extend on abjurations --the example in the description lists it, even though it's not an adjuration).

You will definitely want to get some slippers of battledancing on this build, since the Swiftblade gives you the ability to make a full attack while moving 10 feet. (But make sure your DM agrees that this stacks with snowflake wardance; mine did not :small frown: )

[Heliomance]

If you would learn time stop as a 9th feel spell anyway, then Swiftblade 10 is a very attractive option. More control over the duration. Knowing exactly how long your time stop will last is a terrific advantage (my Dm rolls the duration secretly, so you can never be sure how long it will last). I don't understand why so many people are down on that idea.

Abjurant champion's boost to your AC and free extend on abjurations is not to be uderestimated. (Esp. if you can convince your DM that Mage Armore is supposed to be extended by Abj Champ's extend on abjurations --the example in the description lists it, even though it's not an adjuration).

You will definitely want to get some slippers of battledancing on this build, since the Swiftblade gives you the ability to make a full attack while moving 10 feet. (But make sure your DM agrees that this stacks with snowflake wardance; mine did not :small frown: )

I have both Snowflake Wardance and the Slippers, and my DM has agreed to let the Slippers activate on charges and Spring Attacks as well. Ab Champ is less attractive as I already have light armour proficiency and ability to cast in light armour with no ASF, so that's a more attractive option than buff spells which have finite durations. It is an option though, I guess.

[herrhauptmann]

Heliomance,
There was a Zinc Saucier build which did pretty much what you specify in your opening post. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15215789&postcount=22
The only issue is that 1 level of spellsword, since straight bard doesn't qualify.
Nor does this build get you 4 levels of swiftblade like you desire. (before level 11 I mean)