Need a Work Around for Teleportation Ban

[RolandDeschain]

As the title says our DM has banned Teleport and I would like to find a work around(no, I'm not trying to break the campaign); 14th level wizard needing to travel a couple of thousand miles and back in 24 hours.

[khadgar567]

As the title says our DM has banned Teleport and I would like to find a work around(no, I'm not trying to break the campaign); 14th level wizard needing to travel a couple of thousand miles and back in 24 hours.
find the nexus( book of Eldritch might the nexus) make some diplomacy rolls( and don't attack anything) and travel where you want from the limits she gives you since its location you don't need teleport just walk in one side and get out miles away on other side

[Mystral]

As the title says our DM has banned Teleport and I would like to find a work around(no, I'm not trying to break the campaign); 14th level wizard needing to travel a couple of thousand miles and back in 24 hours.

Just cast phantom steed, at Level 14 it can take you about 1300 miles in 24 hours (You will need to cast it more than once, of course) while flying. Maybe slap on some horseshoes of speed, too.

[heavyfuel]

I honestly think that whatever solution might appear, it'll just spite your DM. If he's dislikes a spell enough that he bans it, saying "oh, but this isn't Teleport, it's thing that works just like it, exept you didn't preemptively banned it" is probably just going to piss him off. Maybe there will be an avalanche with rocks and stuff. Some might die if you catch my drift.

Anyway, Phantom Steed is good spell for this. It's not as strong as Teleport, so it might fly by your DM


book of Eldritch might

If 3rd party and homebrew is allowed, I really don't see the need for this discussion. :smalltongue:

[defiantdan]

The simplest solution if it is just yourself is to use Phantom steed (3rd level spell, so can be extend via cheap rod). A literal Rocket Horse that lasts hour per level. This thing as a move action moves at a whopping 240 feet. Use the usual run command that brings us to a total of 960 feet in 6 seconds. There are 5280 feet in 1 mile. So with some calculations that's about 109 miles an hour. flying. never tires. never needs to eat. completely under your command. if you'd like feel free to cast a persisted Haste or other speed improving spells to give your Rocket horse some booster rockets.

[Uncle Pine]

Let's see... 2,000 miles = 10,560,000 feet.
You can create a Phantom Steed with a flight speed of 240 feet (340 feet if you have Reserves of Strength*) for 14 hours (17 hours with Reserves of Strength). A lesser metamagic rod of Extend doubles that to at least 28 hours for 3,000 gp.
With a flight speed of 240 feet your Phantom Steed can cover 480 feet in 6 seconds (80 feet/second), or 10,560,000 feet in 132,000 seconds. This means that you can get to your destination in 2,200 minutes, or about 36 hours and a half. This is not enough because you also have to get back. 73 hours > 48 hours.
With Reserves of Strength, your Phantom Steed can cover the same distance in about 93,176 seconds, or 1,553 minutes, or slightly less than 26 hours. Still not enough.
Reserves of Strength PLUS Elder Giant Magic** bring your Phantom Steed's flight speed to 800 feet in 6 seconds, meaning that you can do the trip in 79,200 seconds, or 22 hours. This should be enough to succeed in your mission.

Note that Elder Giant Magic isn't really needed if you have other ways to pump your CL. Reserves of Strength is necessary to break Phantom Steed's cap, though.

However, I'd advice against trying to work around limitations imposed by the DM in general. Most of the time, if your DM places a strict limitation it means that he plans to railroad you in some way. No amount of rocket steeds will get around the meteor swarms, roaming dragons, storms and tornados that will show up if you try to deviate from the railroad. That said, it's possible that this specific DM simply banned Teleport and the likes because he thought that they wouldn't fit into his campaign and not because he hates enterprising players.

*Dragonlance Campaign Setting 86.
**Secrets of Xen'drik 135.

EDIT: Partially swordsage'd, because of calcs. If you lack Reserves of Strength, you can ask your DM if your Phantom Steed can run for the whole flight, being a quasi-real creature and everything. It's not specified anywhere that Phantom Steeds don't get tired, but it's worth a shot because it quadruples your speed making RoS and EGM unnecessary.

[Mr Adventurer]

What level is Greater Plane Shift?

Have you got a friendly Druid who can Master Earth?

Do you really have to go there? Could you achieve your objective another way?

Do Outsiders retain their teleportation powers?

[mabriss lethe]

Shadow Walk maybe?

[ZamielVanWeber]

IIRC Cloud Chariot can travel a massive area; it may be Wu Jen only though. In general that theme of spells can work reasonably well.

[Brookshw]

Agreeing that you should discuss alternatives with your dm before looking for alternatives.

[RolandDeschain]

Sorry I was in a hurry and didn't post further details. I appreciate all of the cautionary advice, but my buddy and I take turns DMing this campaign. He never really told me why he wanted to ban teleport, but I have a STRONG suspicion that it was so his PC's Mark of Passage(dragonmark) would remain relevant as we went up in levels. I'm turning the game back over to him, and I get to bring my PC back in(after sitting out the last five levels). He isn't sold on the idea that DMPCs are almost always a bad idea so unlike me, he's going to keep his PC (ranger/scout/blade of orien) in the party.

When I say I'm not "trying to break the campaign" I truly mean it. I want(not need) to get my PC across a big chunk of Eberron and back within a limited time frame(I think 48 hours). This has no bearing what so ever on his story line, but at the same time I don't want to go to him 'hat in hand' and ask for a temporary suspension of the rules.

-Phantom Steed might work, but my PC doesn't have Reserves of Strength nor Elder Giant Magic
-No access to a "friendly druid" for Master Earth
-No access to Cloud Chariot
-Shadow Walk seems that it would still take a considerable amount of time

[Uncle Pine]

-Phantom Steed might work, but my PC doesn't have Reserves of Strength nor Elder Giant Magic

Ask your buddy if the Phantom Steed can tire. If it can't, then Phantom Steed + run action works wonderfully. Otherwise, you need an alternative.

[Venger]

Ask your buddy if the Phantom Steed can tire. If it can't, then Phantom Steed + run action works wonderfully. Otherwise, you need an alternative.

phantom steed isn't a creature, it doesn't get tired.

[Caylin]

Plane shift to whatever non dangerous plane you feel like. Plane shift back to eberron and you wil be within 5-500 miles of destination. Use phantom steed to cover the remainder. Do the same to get back to your starting point.

Would that work?

[Bronk]

Are you fetching something, or do you just need to do something and then come back? Can you do it through long range communication and diplomacy? Could you use 'phantom steed' to send someone, or even send your 'simulacrum'?

Is it only the teleport spell that's banned, or everything teleportation related? Would plane shift work? If so, you could do that twice and get close to where you need to be.

Could you 'planar bind' or 'lesser planar bind' some kind of fast flying celestial creature to use as a mount, perhaps using magic to speed it up? Or perhaps a Nightmare? Or two Nightmares, in case you need to astral project yourself back to the Prime Material? Or a White Hart, which can plane shift?

Can you use an airship and use magic to speed it up? I don't suppose you have access to a spelljammer?

[Uncle Pine]

phantom steed isn't a creature, it doesn't get tired.

I beg to differ:

You conjure a Large, quasi-real, horselike creature.

[Venger]

I beg to differ:

it's a spell effect. they don't get tired. an unseen servant doesn't have to deal with fatigue/nonlethal damage because it's not a creature. it may use the word creature, but it is not a creature in terms of rules.

[RolandDeschain]

Plane shift to whatever non dangerous plane you feel like. Plane shift back to eberron and you wil be within 5-500 miles of destination. Use phantom steed to cover the remainder. Do the same to get back to your starting point.

Would that work?

You know what? This might just be perfect.

Thanks everyone!

[Psyren]

Keep in mind that Plane Shift is a bit funky in Eberron. You have to wait for wherever you're heading to be "adjacent" for the spell to work.

I second Shadow Walk as that can give your GM some caveats and plothooks to throw at you, thus it's more likely he'll say yes. You can also take the party with you in case you run into trouble.

[Uncle Pine]

it's a spell effect. they don't get tired. an unseen servant doesn't have to deal with fatigue/nonlethal damage because it's not a creature. it may use the word creature, but it is not a creature in terms of rules.
That's what I thought as well before looking at the rules. Creature is a defined term. Nothing in the spell's description, Summoning school's description or [Creation] subschool's description states that creature is used in a different way. And nothing states that it's tireless, although I'd personally rule it is.

[ericgrau]

So you need about 4,000 miles in 24 hours, or 160 mph. Phantom steed gets you 24 mph. You could hustle and heal/recast to maybe push it to 48 mph, but a horse can't run for more than a few minutes if that. Shadow walk gives 50 mph, wind walk 60 mph. Phantom steed + horseshoes of speed + hustle = 56 mph. Hmm.

Hopefully the planeshift + speed trick works. Though if your DM banned teleport then planeshifting twice to do almost the same thing may soon follow, if not get purposely DM screwed in Ebberon.

Aren't there a lot of optimization threads with speed boosters? Maybe you can find out which ones are easy to get in item and/or spell form.

A custom item of at will CL 10 enlarged dimension door could get you 160 mph if the DM allows it. Would also be expensive and take an NPC a long time to craft. You could accelerate dimension door to nearly double that with a bit of healing and an extremely high knowlege(geography) check or extremely accurate topographical map to intentionally port yourself into solid objects over and over again while shunting your party an additional 900-1000 feet towards your destination. Try to travel via mountain ranges.

A pair of ring gates + reduce person could get you there and back instantly, but first you need to place one of the gates near your destination. If you can prep ahead of time that may help. Your DM is more likely to be ok with this because it's less versatile than teleport or plane shift, but he might not be.

[Venger]

That's what I thought as well before looking at the rules. Creature is a defined term. Nothing in the spell's description, Summoning school's description or [Creation] subschool's description states that creature is used in a different way. And nothing states that it's tireless, although I'd personally rule it is.

okay, so it seems like we're in agreement then.

not a wizard spell, but spectral stag is another fun one in this vein.

[Uncle Pine]

So you need about 4,000 miles in 24 hours, or 160 mph. Phantom steed gets you 24 mph.
A flight speed of 240 feet is equal to 80 fps, or 54.5 mph. That's why running (x4 speed) makes the trip possible. Not sure how you got 24 mph, maybe you used a different type of mile?


okay, so it seems like we're in agreement then.
Yeah, it's one of those awkward moments when you agree that something should work one way but it's not explicitly stated and since there's a third person involved (RolandDeschain's DM) that has to decide whether the solution works or not you want to make that clear to avoid confusion.

[Telok]

Scrying + Message or Sending to talk to someone.
Lesser Planar Binding for a Nightmare or a Hound Archon.
Mork's Magnificient Mansion and Plane Shift + Phantom Steed.
Also Limited Wish has wide use beyond simply emulating lower level spells, you just need to clear it with the DM. Doubling or tripling the speed of a Phantom Steed could be within it's power.

[Crake]

A flight speed of 240 feet is equal to 80 fps, or 54.5 mph. That's why running (x4 speed) makes the trip possible. Not sure how you got 24 mph, maybe you used a different type of mile?


Yeah, it's one of those awkward moments when you agree that something should work one way but it's not explicitly stated and since there's a third person involved (RolandDeschain's DM) that has to decide whether the solution works or not you want to make that clear to avoid confusion.

the way he got 24 miles per hour would be from the overland travel table, which essentially says that a creature can travel it's movement speed divided by 10 in miles per hour (30ft movement gets you 3 miles per hour for example). Also 240ft is 40fps unless you're double moving, and running gets you x4 of 40fps, not 80fps. So even a phantom speed running for 24 hours would only get you about 2,600 miles. That doesn't cut it

[Renen]

Without a listed Con score, how would you rule when the phantom steed gets tired? I'd say without it having a listed constitution, you can't have it do any constitution checks to see if its tired.

[5ColouredWalker]

Ask your GM if 50MPH can be a multiplier of your standard 30ft move speed. [Everything from a dragon to a snail moving at the same speed? Huh?]
If yes, Phantom Steed + Shadow Walk should get you where you want to go pretty quickly, but still slower than teleport.

I doubt planeshift will fly because used as it's it's basically a two round teleport with a greater margin of error, in addition to the given problems of Eberron's planar cosmology.

I remember that you can hire people from Dragonmarked Houses to use their Dragonmarks for you. Since teleport is allowed through a dragonmark, why not just pay for the teleportation through another character with it?

[5ColouredWalker]

Without a listed Con score, how would you rule when the phantom steed gets tired? I'd say without it having a listed constitution, you can't have it do any constitution checks to see if its tired.

Creatures without a stat are considered to have a +0 modifier for the purposes of that stat... Kinda a big hole in your idea.

[ericgrau]

Without a listed Con score, how would you rule when the phantom steed gets tired? I'd say without it having a listed constitution, you can't have it do any constitution checks to see if its tired.

That's a case of limited detail given. The only reason we're even told it has a dex score is via its AC and then we have to infer what it is. Could be 20 dex , could be 21, we'll never know. The DM would have to make something up for con. Since it's quasi real maybe it doesn't have a con score, we'll never know. But that actually works against it because the rules for con - says it automatically fails all con checks rather than auto passing them like it does with fort saves. Also means it can run for precisely 0 rounds. The steed could still hustle while taking nonlethal damage though. And since it's not undead I'm not sure it's even immune to nonlethal damage with con - (assuming it has con -).

[Renen]

So even though it has no listed stats, or HD except the HP and Ac it has, you'd still consider it a creature and make it become tired? If a DM in my game ruled that, I would just silently pull out my shadow conjuration spell, make a shadow phantom steed, and ride it for as long as I want because it's now made from shadows and wont get tired.

[ericgrau]

So even though it has no listed stats, or HD except the HP and Ac it has, you'd still consider it a creature and make it become tired? If a DM in my game ruled that, I would just silently pull out my shadow conjuration spell, make a shadow phantom steed, and ride it for as long as I want because it's now made from shadows and wont get tired.
It has a dex score too. I think your shadow conjuration phantom steed would also get tired, or the same basic shadow facsimile of tired with the same effects. 60% real tired.

Regardless not having a con score doesn't give it the ability to run longer. It actually removes the ability to run for even 1 round like I said. I'm not sure if it takes nonlethal damage when hustling or not since it isn't actually undead... but overcoming that obstacle on a living steed is trivial with healing and/or recasting the spell. If it is nonliving and does still take nonlethal damage then removing your ability to heal it is shooting yourself in the foot.

And yes I did use the travel rules' standard method of fudging 10 feet = 1 mph even though that isn't precise. Because why put in the effort?

[5ColouredWalker]

If a DM in my game ruled that, I would just silently pull out my shadow conjuration spell, make a shadow phantom steed, and ride it for as long as I want because it's now made from shadows and wont get tired.

And the DM would be fully able to rule that as it's only 60% real, so 40% of the time you fall right through it.
"What, you're mid-air at the moment? Why, that's a long fall. Hope you've the HP for it."

[Morcleon]

And the DM would be fully able to rule that as it's only 60% real, so 40% of the time you fall right through it.
"What, you're mid-air at the moment? Why, that's a long fall. Hope you've the HP for it."

It's only 20% real if you disbelieve it, so if you just believe, it works. :smallbiggrin:

[HurinTheCursed]

Without more context, it might be difficult to offer other ways around than maxing speed to cover large distance without teleport.


Scrying + Message or Sending to talk to someone.
This may be enough without playing with your DM limits.

You may also send someone at destination, ask someone at destination to come to you or to bring you something you need, maybe they could access teleport or don't need to be back as quickly as you do, cutting speed requirement by a factor 2.
You could hire someone at destination to do what you need if there is no one to meet or nothing to take.

[Renen]

And the DM would be fully able to rule that as it's only 60% real, so 40% of the time you fall right through it.
"What, you're mid-air at the moment? Why, that's a long fall. Hope you've the HP for it."

That ruling would have no basis. There's nothing to suggest that creature stops being corporeal some of the time. In fact the creatures summoned by this effect explicitly have all their attack damage remain the same and at no point do they miss any attacks. So if their claws/weapons don't disappear 40% of the time, why would a houses back do so? But good passive aggressive reply.
And thanks Moraleon, all the person would have to do is willingly fail their will save :D

[atemu1234]

Is polymorphing into a mercury dragon an option?

[Crake]

Creatures without a stat are considered to have a +0 modifier for the purposes of that stat... Kinda a big hole in your idea.

Except this:


A creature with no Constitution has no body or no metabolism. It is immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless the effect works on objects or is harmless. The creature is also immune to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain, and automatically fails Constitution checks. A creature with no Constitution cannot tire and thus can run indefinitely without tiring (unless the creature’s description says it cannot run).

Edit: This covers a few other posts too. Lacking a con score doesn't stop a creature from running. Only a few specific creatures have that limitation (most fo those are constructs from the top of my head). It also wont take any nonlethal damage from running unless we're saying now that the nonlethal damage is not a representation of getting tired.

The real question would come down to does it have a con score to begin with? And no, making it a shadow conjuration doesn't remove a creatures con score, case in point any shadow conjuration of a summon monster spell still has a constitution score, and thus would still tire out. It's lack of reality doesn't change that.

[ericgrau]

Except this:



Edit: This covers a few other posts too. Lacking a con score doesn't stop a creature from running. Only a few specific creatures have that limitation (most fo those are constructs from the top of my head). It also wont take any nonlethal damage from running unless we're saying now that the nonlethal damage is not a representation of getting tired.

The real question would come down to does it have a con score to begin with? And no, making it a shadow conjuration doesn't remove a creatures con score, case in point any shadow conjuration of a summon monster spell still has a constitution score, and thus would still tire out. It's lack of reality doesn't change that.
Running rules: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#run
You can run for a number of rounds equal to your con score. After that you must make con checks. So that means without a con score you may run for zero rounds and after that you automatically fail your con checks so still zero rounds. So lacking a con score stops a creature from running.

Hustling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#overlandHustle) only causes nonlethal damage and oddly enough not having a con score doesn't say anything about helping with that either. In fact not being a living creature hurts you there because you have no way to heal it.

This whole argument is to remove the con score/life when the spells probably do not do that... and actually that would make things worse not better for your speed. It's counter-intuitive because you get immunity to fort save effects, but many other checks & effects are actually worse off.

[Renen]

I think general vs specific isn't on your side here. You have a general rule that says creature without con score fails all con checks (one of which is running) but then you have a much more specific rule that says a creature without con score can run forever.

[jiriku]

Covering 4,000 miles in 20-ish hours requires a speed of 200 miles per hour; that's a movement rate in the thousands of feet per round. There isn't any reasonable combination of abilities that a 14th level wizard can use to hit that number unless it was custom-built for that purpose. The only way accomplish the task is to bypass the distance without a teleportation effect. Eberron has an astral plane. A double plane shift followed by shadow walk or phantom steed is clearly the way to go., but it's going to require four plane shift spells to complete the round trip. Unless you are a Conjuration specialist you probably don't have that many spell slots available.

If teleport is the only spell that was banned, potential alternatives include fire stride, tree stride, master earth, and stormwalk. But that's splitting a mighty fine hair on the teleport ban.

[ShaneMRoth]

...
my buddy and I take turns DMing this campaign. He never really told me why he wanted to ban teleport, but I have a STRONG suspicion that it was so his PC's Mark of Passage(dragonmark) would remain relevant as we went up in levels.
...

Okay, as a player you should know how to travel long distances quickly, if for no other reason that to... travel across a continent in an emergency.

Powerful NPCs (kings and generals and whatnot) need to know how fast they can get to the capitol of the other kingdoms and states. There needs to be an in-game (not meta game) level of understanding of what is the fastest form of travel available, even if it's "magic carpets are the fastest reliable transportation available".

As a co-DM, you need to know why Teleport doesn't work. You can't do your job without that information. "It just doesn't work" is barely acceptable for a player, but as a co-DM you are on a Need To Know basis.

Your buddy needs to tell you why, because you Need To Know.

You both need to reach a consensus on what is the fastest mode of movement in this campaign for reasons that go far beyond what you described in the OP.

To paraphrase a great line from the HBO series Boardwalk Empire... You can't be half a DM.

[Silva Stormrage]

I didn't see anyone answering the do outsiders keep teleport powers, if they do than the Barlurgla (Spelling might be off a bit. Demonic Gorilla) from Fiends of Codex: Hordes of the Abyss would be a good choice. It is one of the few demons that can teleport other creatures with its greater teleport. It is only 6HD so lesser planar binding can pick it up.