Have any useful houserules for a functional Gestalt campaign?

[Windrammer]

I'm intending to start one soon, and while I trust the players, I don't want one or two getting really out of hand. So do you guys know of any good ways to curb a little bit of the potential cheese?

I was thinking of saying no double spellcasting, or no double tier 1.

Also, naturally, nothing that can't be logically justified, like diplomancy and ****. I'd request that everything remain within the bounds of credibility. But some more concrete guidelines would be very helpful.

[Seginus]

I like making spell slots overlap, not stack. The exception are class-feature-based spell slots, such as a cleric's domain slots or a wizard's school slots.

For example, a Wizard 20/Sorcerer 20 gestalt would have a base six spells of each level per day (from sorcerer), plus one extra slot for his chosen wizard school of each spell level. He doesn't gain the base four spell slots of each level from wizard, as it's been overwritten by the sorcerer's higher number of spell slots. When determining bonus spell slots for having a high ability score bonus, use the higher of the two amounts of bonus slots instead of adding them both.

A character can prepare spells from either of his two classes in these combined spell slots (except in domain and wizard school slots or other similar feature). If the character gestalts a prepared caster with a spontaneous caster (like with the sorcerer/wizard example), he can spontaneously change any of his prepared spells into one of his spells known from his spontaneous caster class, or use a spell slot that does not have a prepared spell in it to cast a spell known from his spontaneous caster class. He can not spontaneously convert a spell prepared in a domain slot, wizard school slot, or a similarly prepared specialty spell slot. A gestalt cleric can spontaneously convert a spell prepared from his other class's spell list into a cure or inflict spell, as can a gestalt druid spontaneously covert a spell prepared from his other class's spell list into a summon nature's ally spell.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Fractional base saves and BAB, from UA p73, to prevent something like Fighter 1/ Sorcerer 19// Cloistered Cleric 20 getting a +20 BAB at 20th level, because on every character level he takes at least one class will get +1 BAB at that level. Also, something like Fighter 1/ Monk 19// Favored Soul 20 would end up with both a +20 BAB and +22 for all three base saves, because every character level from 3-20 one of his classes would get +1 to all three base saves. Using fractional BAB, that first build would get a +10 BAB at 20th, and the second would have a +15 BAB and +14 to all base saves at 20th.

Restricting double-casting or double-T1 isn't entirely necessary, because something like a Factotum//Wizard or an Incarnate//Wizard or a Totemist//Druid is often going to fare better than a Wizard//Archivist or a Cleric//Druid. I would be more wary of Up Two/One Tier PrCs (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0), since something like a Factotum 8/ Warblade 12// Wizard 5/ Incantatrix 10/ Abjurant Champion 5 is a lot stronger than a Wizard 20//Archivist 20. A Druid 20// Swordsage 5/ Master of Many Forms 10/ Warshaper 5 is a lot stronger than a Druid 20// Cleric 20.

The best thing to do IMO is to have each of your players submit a proposed build for your approval. Let them know if it looks like the character will be powerful enough to make the game less fun for others at the table, and ask them to make some changes before it's approved. Be extremely wary of Persistent Spell, especially if they're using methods of alternative costs (Incantatrix, Divine Metamagic, Naenhoon Illumian, Spelldancer, etc.), or reduced costs (Easy Metamagic + Practical Metamagic + Metamagic School Focus, etc.).

[Troacctid]

Fractional BAB and saves are a must. It gets super weird without them.

Other than that, you could try and do something to shut down the "Take a half-casting prestige class but advance spellcasting anyway by taking the base class on the other side of the gestalt on alternating levels" thing, but honestly I don't think that's a problem worth caring about—one of the cool things about gestalt is that you can do stuff like that that wouldn't be viable in a normal game. The only real issue is that it makes your builds really annoying to write down. "Why yes, I'm a Wizard 5/Green Star Adept 10//Warblade 5/Wizard 1/Warblade 1/Wizard 1/Warblade 1/Wizard 1 etc."

[D4rkh0rus]

Well, this might not be what you want, but, in jaronk's tier list there's a balanced campaign house rules section there's the partial gestalt method, tier 1/2 don't gestalt, tier 3/4 gestalt with npc classes and tier 5/6 gestalt with each other.

For the sake of prestige classes, look at the prc tier list thank judge what the new tier of the class would be for allowing gestalt.

[IZ42]

My GM runs Gestalt like this: you just take the best progression of X (Saves, BAB, Skill Points/Level) from either of your classes and go from there, instead of how you described it, Biffoniacus. So for example, a Ranger 20//Monk 20 would have saves of +12, a BAB of +20, and 6+INT Skill Points per level.

I also agree that having two full-casting classes isn't as strong as you'd think. A good gestalt character generally has a side that has mainly passive features (Monk, for example) and a side that has a lot of active features or spells (like a Cleric, Druid, etc.), instead of both sides with a lot of active features, which is still limited by the number of actions it can take. A Cleric//Monk (or any other mainly passive class, if you dislike using monk ever) would be a better build than a Wizard//Cleric. Monk in general gets way stronger in Gestalt, due to the amount of classes it can mesh well with, seeing as it mostly has passive class features.

I always seen Gestalt casting run so that each side casts from separate spells per day, instead of letting them stack, so a Sorcerer 20//Wizard 20 can cast 6 9th level spells from their sorcerer spells known, and then cast 4 9th level spells from their wizard spellbook, and not be able to exchange slots across classes.

Seeing as other people on this forum are far better at balancing 3.5 than I am, I'm gonna stop here.

[Katana1515]

My group frequently plays gestalt, but when we do we usually ban T1 and T2 classes entirely. We steal PF classes to give us plenty of variety, works pretty well.

[AmberVael]

Maybe just ban Factotum. Which is painful for me to say since I love the class, but its one of those classes that everyone wants (almost needs) to take and so it might be more liberating to just have it gone. It just adds so much to pretty much any build, and those builds it doesn't add to kind of... pale in comparison. Its sad.

Also? I might honestly just overrule the "no more than one prestige class at once" ruling. It mostly just cuts down on build options without substantially altering power level (and in fact, is another way of encouraging Factotum//Something since Factotum needs no prestige class).

You may wish to watch out for overlapping ability score modifiers. With twice as many class levels, you can potentially get the same stat to a lot of things. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus) It can make numbers a bit... wacky. Just something to keep an eye on.


I like making spell slots overlap, not stack. The exception are class-feature-based spell slots, such as a cleric's domain slots or a wizard's school slots.
This really isn't necessary. The tier one classes generally don't get much stronger by gestalting with another tier one class, because those classes are fairly action intensive- and the best casting classes all have massive lists that don't benefit a great deal from overlapping with other lists. Sure, there are some small benefits, but I'll pick the Wizard//Factotum over Wizard//(Insert second casting class here). It is possible to play this smart and make a pretty powerful character (I feel cleric does fairly well if you focus on utility and longer duration buffs)... but most of it you're already doing with a tier 1 class to begin with.


Fractional base saves and BAB, from UA p73, to prevent something like Fighter 1/ Sorcerer 19// Cloistered Cleric 20 getting a +20 BAB at 20th level, because on every character level he takes at least one class will get +1 BAB at that level.

This is a common misunderstanding of how gestalt works. With gestalting you choose the better progression rather than looking at your class bonuses on a level by level basis, so with that build you'd end up with +10 BAB at 20th level, just like a Fighter 1/Sorcerer 19 would. Staggering the progressions does nothing, having better progressions is what changes things.

Fractional saving throws and BAB is a good idea though- I'd also advise houseruling that you only get the +2 bonus from a good save once regardless of how many different classes you take, which is something those rules never addressed (for some reason). Its not necessary to do that, but its just a bit neater.

[Necroticplague]

Gestalting two casting classes is actually kinda a horrible idea. You can still only cast the same amount of spells per round as a non-gestalt, so you're only a bit more powerful than a single classed one.

As for houserules, ditch the annoying 'no two prestige classes at once'. You already have to pay for that by qualifying for both (keep in mind, your main resource you use for qualifying, feats, aren't increased in gestalt),so no real balance reason for it. Also, a ruling that LA or RHD counts as one class level (so it only takes up one side) is nice, as well as so common most dont know its a house rule.

[eggynack]

Gestalting two casting classes is actually kinda a horrible idea. You can still only cast the same amount of spells per round as a non-gestalt, so you're only a bit more powerful than a single classed one.

It's not quite as bad as it sounds. Casters tend to have access to some strong action manipulation powers, and the extra slots give them the slots necessary to both use those powers and have spells to put in them. For example, druids can use nilshai form to cast two spells a round, wizards can use stuff like celerity to toss spells all over the place, and clerics can use DMM to persist all their buffs such that you're not restricted to a per-round basis for their casting. You're not upping spell level any though, and the lists overlap in a lot of places, so you're only increasing in power by so much.

[atemu1234]

LA is treated like levels when Gestalting.