Tricks for a Bard/Rogue?

[snowman87]

I was hoping for some clever ideas for handling high level monsters besides straight-up damage. I've currently got 6 levels of Bard some 3rd level spells and all the sneaking abilities of a Rogue. How would you mess up an enemy's good day with the least danger or effort?

[Kurt Kurageous]

How intelligent is your...DM?:belkar:

[snowman87]

Very. And spiteful. He enjoys when our characters fail or get embarrassed. The maddest I've seen him was when we pulled off a mission nearly perfectly, most rolls by us and him in our favor.

[JAL_1138]

Very. And spiteful. He enjoys when our characters fail or get embarrassed. The maddest I've seen him was when we pulled off a mission nearly perfectly, most rolls by us and him in our favor.

A, that's not really a healthy DM/player relationship--I can understand getting flustered when players just steamroll something meant to be challenging, but it sounds like this goes farther than that.

B, it means you're likely in a situation where most tricks will fail, and the ones that do work are probably going to work once and rarely or never again.

[GiantOctopodes]

I was hoping for some clever ideas for handling high level monsters besides straight-up damage. I've currently got 6 levels of Bard some 3rd level spells and all the sneaking abilities of a Rogue. How would you mess up an enemy's good day with the least danger or effort?

For 3rd level Bard spells, I like the following:

1) Bestow Curse. Wisdom saves aren't *that* common as strong saves of the monsters, it does not rely in any way on DM participation, and if you set up the save / ability it's weak with as being Wisdom, suddenly it's *way* more likely it's failing those Wisdom saves every round. One of the reasons I like this better than, say, Hold Person is both for the riders (disadvantage on attacks against you (helps maintain concentration), and you deal d8 more damage per attack, that's a great ability just on its own!) and because one successful save past the first round won't get them out of the woods, they're stuck with the full duration. Helps conserve spell slots, and will drive your DM WILD.

2) Hypnotic Pattern. Sure, the "charmed" condition is relatively worthless, but it has an unlimited number of targets, it's *great* fun out of combat, and in combat, it can end an encounter outright. Again, good Wisdom saves aren't that common, and note that past the initial save, creatures *do not* get another save to snap out of it, they *must* take damage or have an ally shake them out of it. Keep the enemies away from each other, restrain the ones who save, whatever you need to, the point is if they can be separated by their buddies they may as well be dead, as they'll just sit there until the party converges on them and deals with them however is most appropriate, one by one.

3) Leomund's Tiny Hut. It's a ritual (always nice), and barring Dispel Magic, lets you take a long or short rest whenever you darn well feel like it. Since you can see through, you can see if danger is approaching, and since you and those inside can move through it freely, it provides the ultimate shield from which to pop out and snipe enemies should they venture too close. Another one that ruins not just your enemy's day, but possibly your DM's as well.

Major Image I feel like with your DM every creature might examine it to see if it's an illusion, pretty much guaranteeing one of them will see through it, and Stinking Cloud I feel like would be met with near constant winds. Beyond just spells, you're a Bard! You have Expertise! Whatever you have Expertise in, use it to mess with your foes! What skills / tools do you have Expertise in, by the way?

[Kurt Kurageous]

Very. And spiteful. He enjoys when our characters fail or get embarrassed. The maddest I've seen him was when we pulled off a mission nearly perfectly, most rolls by us and him in our favor.

I agree with others who said this is an unhealthy relationship. I'm sorry for you, perhaps you can speak with your DM out of game about how things could change at the tabletop. Introduce him to the X card and perhaps the O card as well. It's an easy trap for the DM to fall into, anticipating the players and designing things that beat them. But that's just bullying. ("Your 1st level party encounters an invisible pair of tap dancing tarrasques, they have initiative," >>rolls a few die<<,"...TPK."):xykon:

IMHO, mage hand has the greatest potential for clever moves.:haley: An invisible one? Even better.

IMHO generally try saying something like, "I'm trying to X, do I notice a way to do that given my advanced training as a Y to do that in a way that maximizes my success?" This pulls the DM to your side of the table and away from his beloved NPCs/beloved trap/monster/trick for a moment. At the very least it forces them to do a better job describing the environment (first job of a DM), at the most get them to understand and interpret the rules and rulings you have to live with.

But now you are not playing DnD, you are playing BtD (Beat the Dungeonmaster). :roach:That's not a game I care to play anymore, especially as a DM.

I came back to 5e to join people in creating interactive stories that were fun to tell and made people look forward to our time together. If they think even for a moment I am not an impartial referee, it's over. The story/fun is #1, the rules/dice #2, my ego is a distant #3 and it is based on my success with #1 and #2.

[Ashrym]

What spells, skills (and expertise), and subclass do you have now?

[snowman87]

What spells, skills (and expertise), and subclass do you have now?

Rogue (Assassin) 5/Bard (College of Lore) 6

Feats:
Actor
Alert

Spells:
Cantrips - Eldritch Blast, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation, Mage Hand
1st - Dissonant Whispers, Identify (we use it a LOT), Silent Image, Faerie Fire
2nd - Invisibility, Suggestion, Blindness/Deafness, Heat Metal
3rd - Glyph of Warding, Blink

Skills:
Double Proficiency - Acrobatics, Stealth, Perception, Deception, Thieves' Tools
Regular Proficiency - Athletics (I have a negative STR score so I needed it), Sleight of Hand,
Investigation, Insight, Intimidation, Persuasion
Jack of All Trades for the rest.

I can still change my spell selection before my next session. I just wasn't sure what else I might need to get. If I choose different spells they might be situational only or moot.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Skills:
Double Proficiency - Acrobatics, Stealth, Perception, Deception, Thieves' Tools

Pretty sure you can't have four double proficiencies. I am willing to be corrected.

Why not a criminal background, you pick up thieves' tools, and that saves a doubled proficiency.

Dang, I swore I would stay out of optimization threads...

[snowman87]

Pretty sure you can't have four double proficiencies. I am willing to be corrected.

Why not a criminal background, you pick up thieves' tools, and that saves a doubled proficiency.

Dang, I swore I would stay out of optimization threads...

I got Expertise twice for both Bard and Rogue and my DM allowed me double proficiency with Thieves' Tools as it came both with my background and class.

Well, optimization isn't exactly what I'm asking about but more like what to do in game. Bags of ball bearings on the floor, grease slicks, Levitation against opponents will, etc.

[GiantOctopodes]

Pretty sure you can't have four double proficiencies. I am willing to be corrected.

Why not a criminal background, you pick up thieves' tools, and that saves a doubled proficiency.

Dang, I swore I would stay out of optimization threads...

2 from Rogue's expertise, 2 from Bard. 1 more level of Rogue would put him at 6, if he eventually ends up Rogue 6 / Bard 10 he'll have 8. Add in Knowledge Cleric 1 and he can get 10. I'm *pretty* sure that's the highest you can get.

[Kurt Kurageous]

So I think what you wanted was stuff like:

Create a distraction using mage hand to:
pull their helm/hair down over their eyes
dump the arrows out of their quiver
scatter ball bearings/caltrops where they stand
unbuckle their belts
pull their tunic/robe/cloak over their heads
empty their potions/waterflasks
tie their bootlaces together

Gain one round using minor illusion to:
create a high probability mating scenario (who immediately disbelieves that?)
a barrel with a lit fuse
a finger-wagging authority figure (MOM!)
a scroll with orders from their boss telling them to do something else
something cute and unthreatening that evil can't resist spending an action smashing (big eyed bunny rabbit)

[JAL_1138]

Probably won't work so well with a spiteful DM, but there's always the Bardic Knock Spell.*

*Knock on the door, make a Bluff check, and stab the enemy that opens it.