Regarding the Implications of Edition-Specific Magical Effects

[VoxRationis]

I am currently developing a 5th edition setting, and am trying to determine what sorts of things would be noticeably affected by magic. I am primarily a 3.5 player, and though I have the Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide for 5th edition, I am not intimately familiar with the updated spell lists and descriptions, and rather than pore through every spell for effects which might be world-altering and for significant changes from 3.5, I would like to tap in to the collective knowledge of the forums. So what spells are in the PHB that would make a significant difference in how the world works? In my setting's "core," no more than 0.5% of the population can do any sort of magic, and the society is feudal, so if any alterations require battalions of clerics working together, or wizards acting like industrialists, please do not share them.

[foobar1969]

If only a tiny fraction of the population has magic of any kind (BTW, are you including racial cantrips in that count?) then exceedingly few people will have high level magic. So the question becomes: what low level spells can affect the population as a whole?

Races with cantrips might matter a lot. An exiled high elf could earn a living in a small town on Prestidigitation alone (e.g. "Elrod's Eldritch Tavern and Laundromat"). A tinker or tailor with Mending would also be in demand among common folk.

Beyond cantrips, the core spell list has roughly the same utility as it did in 3E. Continual Flame remains a top candidate for middle-class magic use. Land owners, caravans, etc, always have need of reliable lighting. Augury, Lesser Restoration, etc, likewise have the same effects & level as 3E.

[hawklost]

There are still questions you need to answer.

-Is that .5% of the population of the world? Or .5% of 'civilized' creatures (as in ones who build cities and can be played as PCs)?
-- How many of those can only cast Cantrips?
-- How many who can cast up to 1st level level?
-- How Many who can cast up to 2nd level? (And so on).
-If there is a .5% chance of someone casting spells in general, is it challenging to get to higher level spells? Can people even learn spells past 3rd level (or 5th or 2nd or whatever).
-How are Casters perceived by the population in general? Are they revered? Are they feared? Are they hidden? Are they both depending on the type of casting? (Clerics are revered while Arcane is considered blasphemy)
- Are there still monsters who are extremely challenging like Dragons? Do they go near civilization or have they been run to the outskirts?
- Are most kingdoms generally peaceful except for minor things like bandits or small raids? Are there wars between kingdoms constantly?

Remember, even in the medieval times, a population was around 50 mil or more. That's 250,000 people who can wield magic in one form or another. If no more than 1% of those can even cast 1st level spells, we get only 2500 people in the whole world who has any real effect. If only say 1% of those can cast 3rd level and above spells, and only 1% of that has potential for say 5th level spells. Then the world is not going to have much noticeable effect with magic. Heck, with that, most people would have never seen magic (especially if it is outlawed/feared)

[D.U.P.A.]

Refluff some spells as mundane operations, that would maybe do more focus on components, ban other spells that may not be refluffable.

[Ralanr]

I assume elves don't exist. Or they can't use cantrips.

Maybe bump up alchemy to simulate some low utility magic?

Anything that allows control and manipulation of wind makes sailing maybe 80% easier (I'm not a sailor, but windless days are dreaded on the high seas I think).

Ice magic helps in food preservation. Instead of salting meat they cold have a continual freezer.

These are minor and really only effect anything if magic is common. So I'm not sure it works.

[VoxRationis]

I said the "core" area. This area comprises the "viewpoint" culture, a High Medieval setting, almost all humans. 0.5% is the figure for humans; tieflings, gnomes, and elves have significantly higher percentages, but are not integrated into the viewpoint culture. Naturally, higher-level effects are only accessible by a thin minority of the total magic-users.

@ DUPA and Ralanr: I'm not asking for replacements for magic.

[Ralanr]

My apologies.

If no more than 0.5 of the population can do magic, I'm not sure there would be enough to have significant effect on the world.

Unless some got really powerful, conquered a kingdom and set up a ruling class. But you need to do more than, "kill the guy in charge" to conquer something.

[HoarsHalberd]

My apologies.

If no more than 0.5 of the population can do magic, I'm not sure there would be enough to have significant effect on the world.

Unless some got really powerful, conquered a kingdom and set up a ruling class. But you need to do more than, "kill the guy in charge" to conquer something.

If anything it would make them more influential. One magic user could simply ally with a minor noble, push him into the ruling position by killing his foes and charming people to support him and then simply use him as a puppet ruler whilst gradually implementing reforms to create a council of mages of equal power to the king. With so few mages there will be little understanding of magic and fewer good mages available to stop him.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

If no more than 0.5 of the population can do magic, I'm not sure there would be enough to have significant effect on the world.
I don't know, that's one in two hundred people. Things like clerical healing being readily available in most towns is going to affect death rates.


Actually the biggest difference between 3.5 and 5th is that magical items are supposed to be rarer. That's going to lend itself to a different economy than players might be used to seeing.

[Twelvetrees]

My votes are going to be for Plant Growth and Create Water. Both make it significantly easier to support populations, which could result in villages relying heavily on spellcasters in order to have enough food and water.

[VoxRationis]

I don't know, that's one in two hundred people. Things like clerical healing being readily available in most towns is going to affect death rates.


Actually the biggest difference between 3.5 and 5th is that magical items are supposed to be rarer. That's going to lend itself to a different economy than players might be used to seeing.

Keep in mind that that figure is split between every casting class/subclass plus Totem Barbarians and monks, to say nothing of those people who technically have magical potential, but don't develop it for one reason or another.

[Scarab112]

Keep in mind that that figure is split between every casting class/subclass plus Totem Barbarians and monks, to say nothing of those people who technically have magical potential, but don't develop it for one reason or another.


If you're using the 0.5% figure for humans, it'd be more reasonable to assume that these are just the humans that are A) Variant Humans and B) Picked up the Magic Initiate feat. That means you don't have to worry about Barbarians or Monks or other PC classes, since those are PCs, rather than NPCs

That means a small town or village with 200 people will have either a cleric or druid in training with basic cantrips and the ability to cure people once a day, or an apprentice wizard warlock, or sorcerer with some minor utility spells. A town with a cleric or druid initiate is going to be relatively healthier, while one with an arcane caster is more dependent on what they do. If it's a wizard apprentice with mending, prestidigitation, and unseen servant who decides to become a magical tailor, the town is going to have a very reliable source of cheap and fashionable clothes. If it's a Sorcerer or Warlock with Friends, Minor Illusion, and Charm Person, then they're either going to take over the town using their spells, or be cast out for manipulating minds if they get caught.

There's a lot of variance in spell lists, but if it's just a few cantrips and 1st level spells for every 200 people, they won't be able to make a huge impact. There will still be changes, mostly from utility and healing spells being available, but they're diminished by only one such spell being available per day.

[VoxRationis]

If you're using the 0.5% figure for humans, it'd be more reasonable to assume that these are just the humans that are A) Variant Humans and B) Picked up the Magic Initiate feat. That means you don't have to worry about Barbarians or Monks or other PC classes, since those are PCs, rather than NPCs


I'm having a little bit of trouble understanding this paragraph on account of syntactic ambiguity. Who are the variant humans with Magic Initiate? And why don't I have to worry about barbarians or monks? This is a world-building question. Why should PC classes function separately from the rest of the world?

[Ralanr]

I'm having a little bit of trouble understanding this paragraph on account of syntactic ambiguity. Who are the variant humans with Magic Initiate? And why don't I have to worry about barbarians or monks? This is a world-building question. Why should PC classes function separately from the rest of the world?

I ask myself basically this whenever I see how easy casters seem to get magical spells.

[Scarab112]

I'm having a little bit of trouble understanding this paragraph on account of syntactic ambiguity. Who are the variant humans with Magic Initiate? And why don't I have to worry about barbarians or monks? This is a world-building question. Why should PC classes function separately from the rest of the world?

Because PCs and those with PC classes are rare enough that you shouldn't be seeing them very often. If only 0.5% of humans are capable of magic, then only 1% of those is going to actually going to gain levels in a casting class. That's going to be one actual wizard, cleric, druid, or sorcerer per every 20,000 people. That may sound low, but that has the effect of one such character per major city. If you're making the assumption that magic is that rare, then you also have to assume characters with classes are similarly rare.

If you change the rate so that 10% of that .5% becomes wizards or clerics of various levels, you're looking at one per 2,000 people. That gets to the point where larger gatherings of such characters become more possible, where a major city with a temple might have a dozen clerics and a handful of paladins, and powerful sorcerers are common enough that they certainly have a kingdom spanning back a few generations by now. While that is a valid option, it changes a whole lot more despite still having the same .5% magic user rate.

Even if we still assume that only half of that 10% goes beyond level one (let's say that 4% get to level 3 while the remaining 1% goes up to 7), that's a massive change in comparison to having 1%. You start getting large numbers of casters who can use continual flame, such that a city could easily find and hire someone to set up a lighting system for them. You get Wizards who can turn Invisible Levitate, and teleport with Misty Step, making them very hard to detect or stop unless you have another caster on hand. Detect Thoughts would be a boon for any merchant guild. And that's just Wizards. You also start getting Zone of Truth for Clerics, making courts in major cities much more definite as to guilt, along with far more castings of cure wounds and similar spells. As well, you have the presence of many of the casting abilities of other classes, such as rangers, paladins, eldritch knights, and arcane tricksters.

Simply put, if you go for the increased numbers, it's very likely that within the first few towns the players visit, they'll come across a classed character, with about 50/50 odds of that character being stronger than them. If you go for the lower numbers, then the players might not even meet one, and if they do they'll probably be level 1.

This might just be personal preference on my part, but I feel like if one is trying to make magic users a small portion of the population, then extending it so that PCs are an even smaller portion is desirable.

5e is very good for this, as the feat Magic Initiate allows a character to gain 2 cantrips and 1 spell from a casting class of their choice, which combined with the ability of variant humans to take a feat at first level, means you can still have novice mages and acolytes in smaller villages and towns without having to worry about them being strong enough to handle whatever quest the PCs are on alone.

For example, say the town the PCs are in is under attack by orcs that took over the nearby mines. We'll say there's around 2,000 people in this town. Not insignificant, but nothing too grand. With these numbers, there are roughly 10 NPCs capable of magic, though no more than one spell per day. If we assume 1% of all casters get levels, then there isn't one in the town. If we assume they do, then statistically there is at least one, meaning there is a character with at least one level of a PC casting class in the town. They have two spells per day, more hitpoints than any commoner, and possibly some decent armor and weapon abilities depending on their class.

In the first scenario, the town might be able to rally a militia and take out the orcs, though this would likely be very costly. If we assume there are around 1000 males, 1000 females, and that 500 of those are children, you're looking at only 700 or so able bodied men who would qualify. Even if they gather all the casters in the city and convince them to help, things could easily go south, and if they lose a large number of people in the process, the town likely won't survive for much longer.

If there's a first level caster in the bunch, things get different. Depending on the class, it could go a number of ways. With a Cleric, they could rally a small squad of peasants and cast Bless, significantly boosting their odds of taking out squads of orcs using guerrilla tactics. With Spare the Dying and Healing Word, they'll also lose less peasants in the process. A Bard could pull off something more subtle, using his expertise and more trickery based spells to slowly pick off the Orcs one at a time. A Druid can make use of his various animal related spells in order to convince the beasts of the woods to go after any Orcs they see when hunting, and a well placed Entangle or Fog Cloud could easily turn a fight alongside the militia in their favor.

I could keep going, but I think you get the idea. The classed casters have much more variety in what spells they have available, as well as more hitpoints, proficiencies, and total spells they can cast each day. What would normally take a combined effort from the entire town could instead be done by the caster and a much smaller group. This isn't the case with Magic Initiates, who are locked into having 2 cantrips and 1 spell, which they cannot change and likely aren't suitable for combat.

Edit: Sorry for the massive amount of text. I ramble when I get tired.

[VoxRationis]

This might just be personal preference on my part, but I feel like if one is trying to make magic users a small portion of the population, then extending it so that PCs are an even smaller portion is desirable.


But then who will they fight? The conflicts between people are often far more interesting than merely cleaning out dungeons full of monsters.

[Yagyujubei]

But then who will they fight? The conflicts between people are often far more interesting than merely cleaning out dungeons full of monsters.

I dont think they're saying that only the players can be treated like PCs, but you really want to keep NPCs with actual PC progression to a minimum because class progression is supposed to be reserved for the select few that have the potential to become worldwide heroes/villains.

that's why the monster manual has an assassin in it with a specific stat block, so you don't have to buid out a level 10 rogue/assassin every time you want to include one.

in general I would say that only the BBEG and his higher up people should be given actual character progression (if that's your style) and then a few very powerful individuals, like the leader of a well known mercenary troupe, or a king and his wizard adviser.

honestly though I don't see how this is really a problem, because if an NPC has the ability to use magic then ok, use the regular commoner statblock and give them some spells...it's as simple as that.

[Ace Jackson]

But then who will they fight? The conflicts between people are often far more interesting than merely cleaning out dungeons full of monsters.

1. Conflict need not be exclusively direct one on one combat.

2. Supposing that we do want direct one on one combat, because everything else in the context of TTRPGs is honestly a fair deal of effort, we could skew the .5% of the population to be functionally immortal in their own "petty kingdoms," a world beneath the world, perhaps of scientists/wizards who fled underground to avoid some calamity, but for reasons yet unknown to themselves they have yet to be able to return to the surface with their eldritch, world warping powers, perhaps they believe the world to still be unfit for them to return, or some other scenario.

3. Perhaps the percentage would be higher if not for the fact that all the dungeons are over run with monsters. Some who know they have potential might hire a party to clear a dungeon and retrieve an old tome, perhaps many of the .5% do this, perhaps over the course of the story, the .5% organize to try and take over the known world, or as you've put it, 'the "viewpoint" culture.' Leading the PCs into conflict, being caught in the middle, maybe they like the king, but are now being hunted for implications of helping the rebellion.

4. Don't build a rigid world constrained by a set parameter that makes basically everyone powerless, and of those who have a class, only 5th level at most. The speed of plot can be faster then light or slower then snails as interests the story. Just have them run into powerful adversaries. Or for a little more grounding, keep the percentage but forget about the bell curve, magic power (or exceptionalism of any stripe) is rare, but those who have it, generally, have it in spades. Only the young and inexperienced are weak by comparison to their peers.

As for implications of a world with magic, I'd recommend not strictly adhering to the PHB, most of it is combat oriented, whereas you have very few options meant to 'really' bend the world. You might have a geas based justice system, you might have control weather, you might have stoneshape and move earth for large stone cities which leveled mountains, but practically, you shouldn't by the PHB. There's no rules about blending power, so only a high level magic user could control weather (spell level 8) for a limited area a day. No bucket brigade equivalents for magic as far as the PHB is concerned, which makes sense, as the players are expected to handle a discreet style of play, in tandem with each other, but of their own mights, few people doing much. Whereas civilization is the aggregate of many people doing a little.

Do I have a quick and easy answer for any of this? For the fact that controlling the weather would be a magnificent boon for a society but apparently no one in D&D's worlds has codified a method of doing so that is economically, or perhaps socially, feasible? Qualified no. Again, I'd suggest that for world building the PHB list is a good read of what may be possible, given that high level adventurers can do them alone, but I don't think I'd call it the end all be all for world building needs, as communities are often more accurately measured based on collective power, rather then the highest powered individual.

EDIT: I hope that this might be helpful, but looking back at your OP it looks like this isn't what your looking for, for a basic "huh, that's cool" response for your players, cantrip mending may well have more implications then anyone generally gives it credit for, in a world where you could fix anything anywhere, what would development look like? Brass and copper swords may still be intact, and in use for training, if outmoded for actual combat. Why would anyone take up carpentry if chairs and other furniture can be fixed for a single CP? (presuming proper preservation from the elements and a lack of rot.) etc etc.

Outside of that, I can't think of anything I saw in the 5e list that distinctly made me feel like the world was exceptionally different at a basic level, in the sense that I still expect many of the same economic assumptions to be true. If you have something from 3.5 that you feel really did adjust it on a basic level, let us know and we can better address your question of "Edition-Specific Magical Effects." Whether it's still in play, or not, or adjusted, or whatever.

[KorvinStarmast]

Anything that allows control and manipulation of wind makes sailing maybe 80% easier (I'm not a sailor, but windless days are dreaded on the high seas I think).
Not if you have galley slaves. :smallbiggrin: (I was on the crew team in college ...) Agree with you on the wind, though my sailing days are in my past.

Ice magic helps in food preservation. Instead of salting meat they cold have a continual freezer.
Still helps to salt it before freezing.

The most important mundane magic is water magic. Keep the sewers flowing and the crops watered.

[VoxRationis]

Perhaps I'm giving the wrong impression of what I'm looking for. I'm not looking for ideas on "cool" magitech things to do with society. I'm building a fairly low-magic setting (while still being inclusive of the races and classes in the book) which carries the themes of history, and I'm looking for situations where, even though only a tiny handful of people are magic-users of any stripe or power, history and culture would definitely have included them in a fashion worth mentioning in the background lore, and my not including them would be an example of poorly thought-out worldbuilding.
Exempli grata: I say that X tribe came down from the hills and laid siege to the castle of Y lord. With a maximum number of magic-users (not PC classes, just magic-users) equal to 0.5% of the population of either group, would that siege necessarily look significantly different from history (besides a couple of people shooting the attackers with magic missiles rather than arrows)?

[VoxRationis]

Not if you have galley slaves. :smallbiggrin: (I was on the crew team in college ...) Agree with you on the wind, though my sailing days are in my past.

The most important mundane magic is water magic. Keep the sewers flowing and the crops watered.

And the oarsmen rowing, for that matter. A galley crew requires prodigious amounts of water to remain functional. When I helped my brother write the naval sections of his Pathfinder campaign world's lore, I mentioned that galleys were much more functional on account of create water being a cantrip, and thus available in indefinite quantities with a low-level priest among the crew.

[Ace Jackson]

Perhaps I'm giving the wrong impression of what I'm looking for. I'm not looking for ideas on "cool" magitech things to do with society. I'm building a fairly low-magic setting (while still being inclusive of the races and classes in the book) which carries the themes of history, and I'm looking for situations where, even though only a tiny handful of people are magic-users of any stripe or power, history and culture would definitely have included them in a fashion worth mentioning in the background lore, and my not including them would be an example of poorly thought-out worldbuilding.
Exempli grata: I say that X tribe came down from the hills and laid siege to the castle of Y lord. With a maximum number of magic-users (not PC classes, just magic-users) equal to 0.5% of the population of either group, would that siege necessarily look significantly different from history (besides a couple of people shooting the attackers with magic missiles rather than arrows)?

In this case, I'd say not. The largest difference to really come to mind as possible, without any exploits of people who history would remember by name and thus be an exception in your world, maybe that the food held out a little longer for the castle. Maybe. Meaningfully, there's not a lot of difference whether the besieging faction carves fresh arrows or mends the arrow scarps they find on the field. I might be inclined to say that wooden doors are unheard of for the front gates anywhere due to fire bolt allowing someone to set it on fire at a distance, but even then your still within arrow shot.

[Scarab112]

Perhaps I'm giving the wrong impression of what I'm looking for. I'm not looking for ideas on "cool" magitech things to do with society. I'm building a fairly low-magic setting (while still being inclusive of the races and classes in the book) which carries the themes of history, and I'm looking for situations where, even though only a tiny handful of people are magic-users of any stripe or power, history and culture would definitely have included them in a fashion worth mentioning in the background lore, and my not including them would be an example of poorly thought-out worldbuilding.
Exempli grata: I say that X tribe came down from the hills and laid siege to the castle of Y lord. With a maximum number of magic-users (not PC classes, just magic-users) equal to 0.5% of the population of either group, would that siege necessarily look significantly different from history (besides a couple of people shooting the attackers with magic missiles rather than arrows)?

It depends on the levels of the spellcasters and the type of magic they're using. If it's low level clerics, expect there to be fewer casualties overall. If it's low level wizards, they'd be better served using utility spells such as fog cloud to offer cover to advancing troops or something similar. If it's high level, then expect them to take up a more artillery based role, using large area spells to blast apart large formations, which in turn changes standard warfare tactics away from massed battles to smaller squads of skirmishers. It pushes things more towards modern style warfare, where you have familiars in place of drones for scouting, invisibility instead of camouflage, and fireballs instead of cannons.

[Inevitability]

Remember Concentration means casters can't stack buff after buff (well, they can, but the number of stackable buffs has gone down).


Also, Teleportation Circle is 5th level, but after a year of continuous casting becomes permanent. It wouldn't be weird for several major cities to have such a circle. Also note that those circles make it easier to Teleport somewhere, even if it isn't from another circle.

If there are societies okay with necromancy, note that Animate Dead must be recast every once in a while on the created undead to prevent them from going rogue. An interesting exception may be skeletons, who perform the same tasks as they did in life as long as no living beings are present. Kill a couple of farmers, reanimate them, hide, and only re-establish control when you absolutely need to.

[Telok]

My general response to this sort of thought process and world building is to look up census data and finding a profession that is either close to what you want in numbers or close to what you want in effect/style.

So d&d casters are wizards, clerics, sorcerers, warlocks, and assorted utility/partial casters. Pick a combination of scientific, medical, and applied technology/science that either matches your % of population or matches your concept of role equivalents.
Then look around and see how common or how influential those people are in everyday life. This usually give a better feel for how much magic is seen in everyday life and how much normal people will know about magic.
Obviously there's a difference between the faux-mideval/renissance setting of d&d and modern day, but it gives you a better frame of reference than just making assumptions without any research or real information.

For 'low magic' do you want every king and baron to have a mage or priest as an advisor? Magic will generally be uncommon, misunderstood, and used for political purposes or the personal gain of nobility. Do you want every village to have a hedge mage or witch with a couple of low power tricks? Pretty much everyone will know someone who knows magic, you'll have about three degrees of separation at most. Magic won't be well understood but almost everyone can go to a pharmacy and fork over handfuls of cash for a small miracle in a bottle.

PCs will really stand out from everyone simply because almost all PC classes have magic and usually there's nobody capable of countering them. Any mid level caster will be able to rule a town or change regional politics and power just because there's pretty much nobody around to stop them.