DMing with power players.

[Deadlyarrow]

So i am runnimg a game that led into the underdark, one of the players is a 3rd party (my mistake) half troll. And he pumped his con, dex, and str up way high. It is to the point where he can take out a dozen of cr 8 at lvl 3 by himself. I tried to nerf him some, but that did not help to balance him.

So now he is wanting to take demon skin from the feindish codex 1. And he wants it to stack, i dont like to say stait up no, so i am adding in dex negatives for if he stacks it.

(Thicker skin harder to move)

So does anyone have any suggestions on how to progess with this character and player?

[ZamielVanWeber]

First off if it doesn't stack say it doesn't stack. You already bent the rules for the player once, so doing it more risks creating ill will with the other players (going on general trends here since I don't know your players).

If the template is warping encounters (how strong is this template? Most templates LA means you lose serious HP/class features, which can hurt) and you are struggling to keep up explain it to the player. "Hey {name}, I made a mistake with that template. It is far stronger than I expected and is making it difficult to balance encounters properly. I am going to have to ask you to turn it in, but I would be happy to work with you on creating a new character."

[Lapsed Pacifist]

The best thing to do here is explain that the 3rd party race / template is too powerful for your campaign and try to work with him to either rebalance the character or start again. Also, you should always enforce the correct stacking rules - D&D doesn't really work without them:


In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.

[Honest Tiefling]

Don't bother with the character, deal with the player. Firstly, determine if other players are also affected by what appears to be a power imbalance. Secondly, speak with him regarding the issue. State why and how his choices are not making it enjoyable for you. (I assume this is the problem, else just power everyone else up and run around killing the Underdark.) See if there isn't a way to compromise to make it fun for the both of you. And honestly, from what I have seen, he'll likely keep pushing the limits if he finds powergaming fun because...There's nothing telling him not to. He might even take your attempts to nerf him as encouragement in some cases. Maybe replace the troll with a PC that optimizes things that are really weak, so he can powergame but isn't overshadowing others.

But if he does realize he is ruining the game for you and possibly others, and yet takes no action to remedy this...Politely ask him to leave. Players and the DM need to work together to make the game fun, and one person continuning to make the game not enjoyable for others can quickly kill any fun to be had.

If this isn't what you want to do, don't be afraid to say no. Being a fun DM who listens to ideas doesn't mean you should be a door mat, either. If you cannot be firm when you need to be, you're not going to be a good DM because there will always be times you need to put your foot down.

[jiriku]

Great question! Every DM eventually confronts a high-op player who tries to min-max his character. Welcome to the DM Headache Club! :smallsmile: First of all, let me encourage you to approach this "problem character" with enthusiasm for sharpening your DM skills. This experience is a good thing -- you're going to learn to become a better DM. Second, there are two common types of optimization. Your player is using the weaker of the two, which is Min-Max Optimization. He's pushing his numbers really high on a couple of attributes (melee attack bonus, melee damage, Armor Class), and neglecting most other capabilities. Once you learn the trick of it, it's easy to tame a Min-Max optimizer. We'll show you how.

DM's Toolbox:

First, get the party in shape.
Switch to a "no third-party material" rule. There is a published half-troll template in the Fiend Folio, page 93. It's also on the web (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/halftroll.shtml). Require him to switch to that template and enforce its +4 level adjustment. If the level adjustment puts his ECL above the rest of the party, use the XP rules as written in DMG pp.36-41, so that he gains less XP than everyone else. The other PCs will catch up to him in short order, especially if you're throwing EL 12+ encounters at the group.
Check his character sheet very closely. PCs who can handle encounters that far above their own level often contain math errors and inappropriate stacking of bonuses. Make sure you thoroughly understand all the rules that he's using, and require him to correct any errors that you find.
Check the gp value of all of his gear and that of the rest of the party. Compare how much stuff they have to the average Wealth By Level (WBL) for characters of their level on DMG p.135 (about 3,000 gp each for a party of mostly 3rd level characters). If they are way above average, tell the players that you have accidentally given out too much treasure, and you're going to throttle back rewards until the party levels up to where their wealth is average. Now, cut the amount of treasure you're granting by 90% until the party levels up and gets to where their wealth is normal for their level.

Second, vary your encounters.

Start building combat encounters where having high AC and melee damage is not the best way to win. For example, use flying creatures with ranged attacks, swarms, creatures who make touch attacks, creatures that deal ability damage or inflict negative levels, and creatures that force saving throws.
Include more non-combat encounters, or encounters that don't need to end in combat. If the players can/must negotiate with the creatures they meet, the ability to squash creatures becomes less useful.
Include situations that reward skill use, especially Knowledge skills. Mysteries, puzzles, physical obstacles, traps, and riddles are all classic choices.

If you do these things, you can mechanically get the "problem PC" back into line with the rest of the party. That makes your job much easier. Then, by learning to offer more varied challenges, you'll become the kind of DM who doesn't need to worry about players who optimize at doing one thing really well -- that one thing appears rarely enough that it's no longer a problem when the PC is very good at it.

[BWR]

Universal response to this sort of thing:

Talk with the players

If you can't tell your players exactly what it is they are doing that is making things difficult for you but keep trying to patch minor things like these templates, you can't expect them to do what you want. (most) Players aren't mind-readers.
Spell out exactly what you want from the game, what you expect from the players and how you will be handling things that are an annoyance. Set hard limits on what you will permit. This will save a lot of hassle because most players are decent enough folks that they won't try to go beyond what the GM wants and will rein themselves in on their own if you say X isn't working for you. Those who aren't decent people will reveal themselves soon and can be dealt with appropriately (admonishments to toe the line or face the boot).
Say straight out you don't want players to play as heavily optimized characters as they want because you have a hard time handling it.

[OldTrees1]

You should definitely talk with your players. But this would be a good time to listen to who they are and what they want(usually by asking them). Why did he pump his physical stats up so high? I can think of several different motives

1. Wants to be powerful, 2. Competitive vs other players/DM, 3. Wants to play on an easier mode, 4. Trying to respond to a perceived hike in difficulty, 5. Numerical side effect of putting together the features for a concept, ...)
and each of these motives is a different situation. Offhand I would guess(from the crippling limited information) that it is 1, 2, or 3/4.
1 wants power but will generally feel at home with a higher level but less optimization.
2 is a problem attitude that would need to be solved OOC.
3/4 is solved by adjusting the encounters(either by more less threatening encounters or by you getting better at estimating challenge).
5 is solved by nerfing the side effects to allow more features at a lower optimization level.

[ShaneMRoth]

...one of the players is a 3rd party (my mistake) half troll. And he pumped his con, dex, and str up way high. It is to the point where he can take out a dozen of cr 8 at lvl 3 by himself. I tried to nerf him some, but that did not help to balance him.
...

Forget nerfing him. Forget 'balancing' him.



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So now he is wanting to take demon skin from the feindish codex 1. And he wants it to stack, i dont like to say stait up no, so i am adding in dex negatives for if he stacks it.
...

This is what happens when DMs refuse to say no to power gamers.

No DM worth a damn likes to say no.

But it is necessary.

Particularly at times like this.

Particularly with players like this.

Power gamers must be told no.

Repeatedly.

Sometimes, they have to be told Hell No.

He wants it to stack? Duly noted.

Do you want it to stack?

If not, then don't let it stack. Call it a house rule if you must, but don't let it stack.





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So does anyone have any suggestions on how to progess with this character and player?
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I am going to assume that this player is acting in good faith, and that is a big assumption on my part.

You have given this player every benefit that could come with doubt.

It sounds like you gave him the benefit of the doubt against your own better judgment.

You have already seen what this player's judgment has done to your campaign.

In the words of Dr Phil, "How's that workin' for ya?"

If you let this player break your campaign, and render it unplayable, it doesn't matter whose fault it is... it's your problem and you need to solve it. you need to protect the playability of the campaign or you will have no game.

Make it clear that you are not going to let the player break the game. In those words, if necessary, "Dude, seriously, I'm not going to let you [bleep] up my campaign. Pick something else."

I'm assuming that the Effective Character Level of Trolls McGee is higher than that of the other PCs. This is supposed to impact XP awards. McGee should get XP based on his ECL, not his Character Level. And, for clarity, this is fair and it is straight out of the rules. You are supposed to give smaller XP to characters whose ECL is higher than the CR of the encounter. And if a character's ECL is too high, he isn't supposed to get any XP for the encounter at all. And again, this is not only Fair, it is made entirely of Artisanal Fairness.

Is it really a game breaker that this PC is temporarily overpowered? Or is it just a setback?

I'm assuming that the current problem is that the only way to challenge Trolls McGee is to set up encounters that would risk TPK outcomes for the rest of the party.

Keep the CR of encounters keyed to ECL of the other party members. The other PCs should level up faster and should become the same ECL as Trolls McGee in less time than you might think.

Once everyone is at the same ECL, encounters should become easier to manage.

[ngilop]

forget trying to screw him over or even BAN the 3rd party template. If its the same one I am thinking of, then it is a +3 Level adjustment, so you player is not a 3rd level character he is a 6th level character.

[Silva Stormrage]

forget trying to screw him over or even BAN the 3rd party template. If its the same one I am thinking of, then it is a +3 Level adjustment, so you player is not a 3rd level character he is a 6th level character.

Ya at this point I could reiterate what others have said (Talk to the player, perhaps change the template if it is unbalancing. I have had to do similar to things that I thought were balanced and ended up really not being so in practice) but I think this is an important thing to check. Make sure he understands ECL and LA. Could you link or share the stats for the template? In particular if it has a level adjustment? It might not be a malicious misunderstanding ECL can be very annoying to understand at times.

[Deadlyarrow]

Thank you all for the advice. I will talk to him about adjusting his character to match the game better. I will probally add the level adjustment and ban the third party stuff from the rest of this game and future games. If it gets too bad i will have him remake it completly.

I havent just removed him because he is a friend. And we are limited on players. I have been using him as the tank and to force the players onward due to a couple of his traits.

I have been trying to add in more skill based challenges and adding higher level monsters to adjust to his power. I also have been considering a curse to adjust him down to the other players.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Thank you all for the advice. I will talk to him about adjusting his character to match the game better. I will probally add the level adjustment and ban the third party stuff from the rest of this game and future games. If it gets too bad i will have him remake it completly.

I havent just removed him because he is a friend. And we are limited on players. I have been using him as the tank and to force the players onward due to a couple of his traits.

I have been trying to add in more skill based challenges and adding higher level monsters to adjust to his power. I also have been considering a curse to adjust him down to the other players.


The golden rule: deal with in-character problems in character and out of character problems out of character.

And, you know, don't be afraid to take his character sheet home with you one night and actually check it to make sure everything is right. The first time I ever allowed players to use the Psionics Handbook, one of my players misread class level in the Pyrokineticist ability Bolt of Fire as character level. It seemed a bit overpowered, and it was. I also had another player who wrote down his constitution score instead of his constitution modifier; I was really surprised when his second-level Bard had 33 HP.

[ngilop]

Thank you all for the advice. I will talk to him about adjusting his character to match the game better. I will probally add the level adjustment and ban the third party stuff from the rest of this game and future games. If it gets too bad i will have him remake it completly.

I havent just removed him because he is a friend. And we are limited on players. I have been using him as the tank and to force the players onward due to a couple of his traits.

I have been trying to add in more skill based challenges and adding higher level monsters to adjust to his power. I also have been considering a curse to adjust him down to the other players.

Yeah, this is completely no the player's fault or the fact that it is 3rd party. I mean you leta guy play a LA template and disallowed it actually giving a level adjustment.

This squarely falls upon your shoulders. Next time you guys play just say ( as an example) hey, I was completely wrong in saying you could ignore level adjustment its becoming unbalance becaue I basically gave you 5 levels for free. so now I am level everybody else up form lvl 3 to level 8. so that you guys are all on equal footing.


let me stress again. this is NOT the player's fault, nor because he is a power gamer. Nor is this the fact that it is a 3rd party publisher's fault. This is your fault for completely ignoring the fact that the template should have had a level adjustment from the get go, but you decided to nix that for what ever reason.

TO fix this literally all you have to do is equal everyone at the table;s ECL ( or effective character level) and PO all of your issues have been solved.

[AzraelX]

So now he is wanting to take demon skin from the feindish codex 1. And he wants it to stack
And he should, because it does stack. It specifically increases your existing bonus, rather than providing a separate bonus. Not stacking with his existing natural armor bonus would defeat the entire purpose of the feat. It also comes with penalties already attached.

Don't change how the feat works. That's just addressing the symptoms of the issue, and players should be able to anticipate how feats/abilities/spells work ahead of time.

It sounds like the actual problem you have is with the strength of the template he's using, and this would be the underlying issue you need to correct. Look into Level Adjustments (LA), because this is what they were designed to fix.

Once you're satisfied that the template is within a sufficiently reasonable range, then let him go wild with his power-gaming optimizations. It sounds like his character is going to be a better fighter than everyone else's no matter what, simply because that's what he's aiming to do, so let him fight it up. Being able to kill a bunch of stuff does not an overpowered character make.

You're always free to adjust the CR of encounters to compensate for this as well.


I will probally add the level adjustment
That's really all that's needed here. It's completely reasonable (expected even), and will save you the trouble of needing to change/ban/nerf anything else. Or needing to have serious conversations where you make him feel bad for investing time/effort/interest/enjoyment into his character and your campaign.

On a related topic, "removing him" is an inappropriate response to this. It's such a trivial issue that it shouldn't have even come up.

[Odin's Eyepatch]

I also have been considering a curse to adjust him down to the other players.

I would be wary of doing this. The player may feel like he is being unfairly targeted. Make sure he is aware of why you are cursing him, and that he is OK with this. It should also be a temporary solution, and he should have a way of removing the curse by the time the other players have caught up with his level.

In short, I would not recommend it, unless you plan it out carefully and you make sure the player is happy to play along with it.

[ShaneMRoth]

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Yeah, this is completely no the player's fault
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This squarely falls upon your shoulders.
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let me stress again. this is NOT the player's fault, nor because he is a power gamer.
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It's a little bit the player's fault...

The DM is accountable for all mistakes made in his campaign... but it doesn't follow that this renders all players to be blameless or faultless.

Power gamers are not special snowflakes.

They are not endangered species that need a 501(c)3 Non-Profit Organization to protect their habitat. ("For only 50 cents a day... the price of a cup of coffee... you can insure that the fragile natural habitat of these majestic power gamers will be preserved...")

They're a dime a dozen.

Take a seat at any game table... and I mean any game table... and you will rub elbows with a power gamer.

They are constantly trying to see what they can slip past the DM's radar. The fact that they do so with an absence of malice is irrelevant. The fact that they are not intentionally trying to cause a campaign to founder is irrelevant.

Power gamers rarely own their mistakes. If they make a mistake, it's the DM's fault for not preemptively catching the mistake.

EDIT: It was brought to my attention that this post could have been written with more courtesy. I have edited out the most coarse phrases.

[Extra Anchovies]

So i am runnimg a game that led into the underdark, one of the players is a 3rd party (my mistake) half troll. And he pumped his con, dex, and str up way high. It is to the point where he can take out a dozen of cr 8 at lvl 3 by himself. I tried to nerf him some, but that did not help to balance him.

Is he actually capable of killing 12 CR 8 creatures as a level 3 character, or are you exaggerating? Some concrete examples of what he's done would be important.

The exact circumstances of each fight would also be important. An 8th-level halfling monk is theoretically CR 8, but is in no way a challenge for a level 8 party. And throwing 12 8th-level halfling monks at this character one at a time so he can tear them up is in no way going to be challenging. So knowing what monsters you used, as well as the tactics used by the monsters, is important.

Also, is he ECL 3 after the template LA? Or does he have 3 class levels, and then LA on top of that? If it's the latter, he's not level 3. And either way we can't help you unless you provide the relevant information from the template (ability score adjustments, SAs/SQs, LA, etc).


So now he is wanting to take demon skin from the feindish codex 1. And he wants it to stack, i dont like to say stait up no, so i am adding in dex negatives for if he stacks it.

(Thicker skin harder to move)

Demonic Skin explicitly stacks with other natural armor. Also it's not an OP feat. Don't change it.


So does anyone have any suggestions on how to progess with this character and player?

The only issue I see is that you allowed the third-party template when a first-party version already exists, and you are probably throwing poorly designed encounters at him. Let him know that he'll need to switch templates, and step up your encounter-design game. So basically, everything that jiriku said.


<snip>

There are much nicer ways to say what you said. Please use them.

[ngilop]

It's a little bit the player's fault...

The DM is accountable for all mistakes made in his campaign... but it doesn't follow that this renders all players to be blameless or faultless.

Power gamers are not special snowflakes.

They are not endangered species that need a 501(c)3 Non-Profit Organization to protect their habitat. ("For only 50 cents a day... the price of a cup of coffee... you can insure that the fragile natural habitat of these majestic power gamers will be preserved...")

They're a dime a dozen.

Take a seat at any game table... and I mean any game table... and you will rub elbows with a power gamer.

They are constantly trying to see what they can slip past the DM's radar. The fact that they do so with an absence of malice is irrelevant. The fact that they are not intentionally trying to cause a campaign to founder is irrelevant.

Power gamers rarely own their mistakes. If they make a mistake, it's the DM's fault for not preemptively catching the mistake.

EDIT: It was brought to my attention that this post could have been written with more courtesy. I have edited out the most coarse phrases.


Except this is not about the player being a power gamer or wanting special attention.

this is solely about the DM letting a player take a high Level Adjustment template then saying ' ignore the LA, dude it's cool" then getting butt-hurt over the fact that the character is now TOO POWERFUL. It has NOTHING AT ALL to do with the player power gaming. It has 100% do with the DM hand-waving away a rule that came back to haunt him, and instead of just being an adult and owning up to the mistake, he is searching for ways to punish the player for something the freacking DM did.

SO why you hopped on the SCREW THE PLAYER OVER for something the DM allowed bandwagon is beyond my ability to comprehend. Literally all the OP has to do in this case in just do the EXTREMELT simple job of enforcing the Level Adjustment on the template. How hard is that, and why is there such a crazy massive response of 'F the player over because!"? my god that not only horrible to do as a DM or giving advice BUT as a human being PUNISHING others for what you have done is atrocious.

TL:DR version gtfo the player and accept the fact that the DM should have just enforced the LA from the start, and its that and only that is what is causing the character to be as powerful as he was. nothing , and I mean nothing at all from the players side is to be blamed here. If your DM said hey yeah you can play a Trumpet archon, just ignore the LA and start at level 3.

Is it your fault for being a power gamer than your character is so dang strong OR is it your DMs for just saying forget level adjustment and all that comes with it?

[ShaneMRoth]

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Except this is not about the player being a power gamer or wanting special attention.
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The entire premise of the OP is DMing with power players. That's not me reading the OP's mind, it's me reading the OP's title.

And, in my experience, all power gamers want special attention.



this is solely about the DM letting a player take a high Level Adjustment template then saying ' ignore the LA, dude it's cool" then getting butt-hurt over the fact that the character is now TOO POWERFUL. It has NOTHING AT ALL to do with the player power gaming. It has 100% do with the DM hand-waving away a rule that came back to haunt him, and instead of just being an adult and owning up to the mistake, he is searching for ways to punish the player for something the freacking DM did

My understanding of the OP, is that the OP didn't Handwave the Half Troll Level Adjustment. It seems more likely that the OP was unaware of the Level Adjustment issue at the time of character creation.

If the DM said to the entire group, during Session Zero, "You can play a Half-Troll if you want to..." then there would be more than one half-troll in this party. And that would be entirely the DM's fault.

I am under the impression that it was the Power Gamer's idea to have a Half-Troll PC at all. And the OP admitted in this thread that he is one of those "I hate to say no" DMs, mind you, so I am also under the impression that the Power Gamer neglected to mention the Level Adjustment issue to the DM.


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SO why you hopped on the SCREW THE PLAYER OVER for something the DM allowed bandwagon is beyond my ability to comprehend.
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I'm actually on the bandwagon of not screwing the other players over. Right now the DM is having a problem because of Trolls McGee. And when the DM is having a problem, the entire table is having a problem.


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Literally all the OP has to do in this case in just do the EXTREMELT simple job of enforcing the Level Adjustment on the template. How hard is that...
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There is nothing simple about reconciling a three level discrepancy between one player and the rest of the party.

Barring near Deus Ex Machina levels of DM discretion (giving the other players three bonus levels of experience instantly, for example) this would take weeks, if not months, of game sessions to sort out.




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why is there such a crazy massive response of 'F the player over because!"? my god that not only horrible to do as a DM or giving advice BUT as a human being PUNISHING others for what you have done is atrocious.
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I personally advised against nerfing Trolls McGee. I recommended just awarding XP based on Effective Character Level until the other players catch up and the average level of the party comes into line with Trolls McGee.

I did recommend not allowing that one Feat to stack, in the context of DM discretion, but that doesn't seem like an atrocity to me. Then again, I'm not a power gamer.

The other players are currently being punished for this situation through no fault of their own. This would not be happening were it not for the actions of the Power Gamer.

The DM is accountable, but the Power Gamer is culpable.


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nothing at all from the players side is to be blamed here. If your DM said hey yeah you can play a Trumpet archon, just ignore the LA and start at level 3.

Is it your fault for being a power gamer than your character is so dang strong OR is it your DMs for just saying forget level adjustment and all that comes with it?
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This Power Gamer is the proximate cause of this entire problem.

I don't believe that the DM knowingly ignored the Level Adjustment.

The Power Gamer probably lied by omission. ("Well, you didn't ask if there was a Level Adjustment issue, so I assumed you didn't think it was a problem...")

That is Power Gamer 101. It's better to ask forgiveness than to ask permission.