General Mordheim Discussion: 1st Dagger is Free

[Blackhawk748]

Ok, so i noticed that there isnt a Mordheim discussion thread, so i felt the need to rectify this. Now since there is also a video game called Mordheim:City of the Damned, we can talk about the here too!

So to save our sanity (or whats left of it in the case of you Chaos worshipers, you know who you are :smallamused:) the table top will just be called Mordheim (abbreviated MH) and the video game will be called City of the Damned (abbreviated MCotD), or you can just specify, your choice.

So to get things started im going to post my Undead Warband that i will be using shortly. My opponents are yet undetermined, but im 95% sure i will be fighting Ogre Maneaters and Woodelves, 60% sure on Sisters of Sigmar (thats gonna hurt) and our final player was gonna check out Bandits, but he could play anything. So, the list!!

The Hand of the King

Vampire w/ Sword and Axer-125
Necromancer w/ Dagger and shortbow-40
Dreg w/ bow, and Mace-33
Dreg w/ bow, and Mace-33
Dreg w/ Heavy Armor, Mace, Shield-78
Zombie-15
Zombie-15
Zombie-15
Zombie-15
Zombie-15
Zombie-15
Dire Wolf-50
Dire Wolf-50

Total: 498 GC

Oh and the guy who is checking out Bandits wanted to play Samurai, but the only list i say looked incomplete and not put together the greatest, so if someone knows of a better one, or has used this one (https://docs.google.com/folderview?id=0B18J5DU-6cP_ZjYwUXpNbXZvSXM&usp=drive_web&tid=0B18J5DU-6cP_aEg2dHIxbGpaMlk) let me know so i can tell him.

Alright everyone, lets get to finding that Wyrdstone!

[Leon]

Have you played the PC version ~ i look at it but im wary of Early access games these days.

Used to play a lot and still have a couple of my Warbands about the place (best was the first one ~ Reiklanders ended a campaign with 5 Very Skilled and Equipped Heroes and 2 Henchmen).

Am looking forward to getting back into it at some point particularly when the Sisters of Eternal Mercy come out then i can do a SoS warband without paying through the nose for a limited selection of miniatures .

Have always wanted to do a Vampire Warband tho either as a Strigori or Blood Dragon basis but its hard to get the Minis for both those BLs now that are the ones i want.

[Blackhawk748]

Have you played the PC version ~ i look at it but im wary of Early access games these days.

Used to play a lot and still have a couple of my Warbands about the place (best was the first one ~ Reiklanders ended a campaign with 5 Very Skilled and Equipped Heroes and 2 Henchmen).

Am looking forward to getting back into it at some point particularly when the Sisters of Eternal Mercy come out then i can do a SoS warband without paying through the nose for a limited selection of miniatures .

Have always wanted to do a Vampire Warband tho either as a Strigori or Blood Dragon basis but its hard to get the Minis for both those BLs now that are the ones i want.

I have, and while it isnt a perfect copy of Mordheim (some people have called it Fantasy X-Com) its still pretty fun. The warriors gear is fully customizable (from a set list per warband, just like youd expect) and they have Active and Passive skills as they level up. How ever there is currently no level up system in place, when you make a warband you choose a Rating, either 0 or 10. If you pick 0 your using a brand new warband and if you pick 10 they are at max level and as such cant have a bunch of skills.

Wounds are now a HP bar (i think this is fine for a computer game) and you have Strategy points (these do mostly non combat stuff like movement, swapping weapons etc) and offense points (which use you to smack people) which vary based on the unit. Obviously heroes have more than henchmen.

All in all i say its good, its not Tabletop Mordheim but i think it does a decent job of being a spiritual successor.

Edit: Oh theres only 4 warbands as of now, Human Mercs (you cant pick the region they're from, but eh cant have everything) Skaven of Clan Eshin, Sisters of Sigmar, and Cult of the Possessed. They will most likely come out with more, as they only need Undead and Witch Hunters to finish off the base book Warbands, and they may come out with others, but i havent heard anything so this is just speculation.

[Wraith]

I haven't played tabletop Mordheim for many years, but when I left it was on top of an 11-game winning streak with my trusty Skaven, the Darkblade Assassins (who later went on to found their own Blood Bowl team, but that's a separate story.....) so I have a lot of fond memories. :smallbiggrin:

Even back then, I never faced any Undead Warbands - a lot of players put off by their rather pathetic, unarmed Henchmen, compared to even a comparatively useful Skaven sling/dagger combination. I quite liked them though, because I think that Ghouls - while costing more than twice as much as a zombie - are really worth more than twice as much, too.

Is there a reason that you prefer one over the other, Blackhawk? Or are you just looking for a screen of expendable bodies for your Vampire to 'hide' behind until it's time for him to jump out and do all the heavy lifting? :smallsmile:

[Blackhawk748]

I haven't played tabletop Mordheim for many years, but when I left it was on top of an 11-game winning streak with my trusty Skaven, the Darkblade Assassins (who later went on to found their own Blood Bowl team, but that's a separate story.....) so I have a lot of fond memories. :smallbiggrin:

Even back then, I never faced any Undead Warbands - a lot of players put off by their rather pathetic, unarmed Henchmen, compared to even a comparatively useful Skaven sling/dagger combination. I quite liked them though, because I think that Ghouls - while costing more than twice as much as a zombie - are really worth more than twice as much, too.

Is there a reason that you prefer one over the other, Blackhawk? Or are you just looking for a screen of expendable bodies for your Vampire to 'hide' behind until it's time for him to jump out and do all the heavy lifting? :smallsmile:

I have great respect for the ghouls, and i actually plan on hiring some after my Wolves die (which probably wont be many matches). The main reason i have so many zombies is because a) i have a ton of them from my VC army b) im a big fan of the Meat Wall tactic and c) they are much better in Mordheim than they are in WHFB because half the game isnt immune to Fear. But ya tactics wise im just gonna use them as a Meat Wall so my Vamp can get to the things i need killed and the Zombies will just drag down the enemy Henchmen while my Dregs support. I really hope my Necromancer gets Reanimation so i can reduce my casualties.

I figure after several matches ill swap out the Wolves (who will probably die fairly soon as im gonna use them like Undead cruise missiles) and get some ghouls, probably cap my warband out with them, so ill wind up with 4 at max, unless i drop a zombie for one, which i may. Depends largely on how things progress.

Also it buys me time to buy some ghouls as i dont own any :smallredface:

[Winterwind]

If your group allows using those, the Bordertown Burning (http://bordertownburning.ciantygames.com/home.html) supplement (an unofficial supplement that provides a great amount of rules, scenarios and warbands, all designed for having a campaign in the Dark Lands/Mountains of Morn/beyond, i.e., the borderlands of Cathay - I haven't played it yet, but it looks really, really well done) has the Restless Dead warband, which, I personally feel, is a far more interesting to play version of the Undead, with a whole bunch of fun options, special skills and what-have-you. :smallsmile:


I absolutely love Mordheim, and it's played a ton at my local club - more than WHFB, I'd estimate, and pretty darn close as much as WH40k. Besides just regular games, currently we're having a great eight player campaign, with one player just acting as GM and setting up all sorts of scenarios - and he's pretty darn good at it. We're up to the final game (which, sadly, due to scheduling issues won't happen until September), and my Beastmen Raiders are currently tied for first place together with another player (but, while his warband is terribly beaten up and consists mostly of fresh recruits, my warband is in pristine condition and has very experienced veterans). This said, the GM said the finale would be something very special that might well turn the tables completely, so, I'm very much looking forward to it. :smallsmile:

My biggest problem with Mordheim is that it keeps animating me to start new full WHFB armies. I only started this Beastmen warband for the campaign, and liked the conversions I did for it so much (my "Beastmen" are catfolk; the minotaur is, in fact, a meowtaur...) that I ended up turning it into a full fledged army (complete with a winged, three-headed Cheshire Cat for a Jabberslythe. Yes, I may have issues. :smalltongue:). Now, I'm going to be making a Warmonks of Cathay warband (from that supplement I linked above)... and I'm seriously pondering making it into an Empire army, but with completely Chinese-styled models, to represent a Cathayan army. And eventually, I also want a Restless Dead warband - and Vampire Counts were the army I had wanted to start for forever anyway! So... somebody save me, please? :smalleek:

[Blackhawk748]

If your group allows using those, the Bordertown Burning (http://bordertownburning.ciantygames.com/home.html) supplement (an unofficial supplement that provides a great amount of rules, scenarios and warbands, all designed for having a campaign in the Dark Lands/Mountains of Morn/beyond, i.e., the borderlands of Cathay - I haven't played it yet, but it looks really, really well done) has the Restless Dead warband, which, I personally feel, is a far more interesting to play version of the Undead, with a whole bunch of fun options, special skills and what-have-you. :smallsmile:

Ive seen the Restless Dead list, and its the backup for my current list if i ever get wiped. Well that and Skaven.

Also Cat Beastmen? That is unexpected, but i bet they look really cool.

[Winterwind]

Also Cat Beastmen? That is unexpected, but i bet they look really cool.They are the Children of the Horned Cat, you see. :smalltongue:

I'll post pictures some time, when I get around to taking any. Which I've been kind of procrastinating on doing for forever. Maybe when I finally finish painting the Winged Three-Headed Cheshire Cat...

[Blackhawk748]

They are the Children of the Horned Cat, you see. :smalltongue:

I'll post pictures some time, when I get around to taking any. Which I've been kind of procrastinating on doing for forever. Maybe when I finally finish painting the Winged Three-Headed Cheshire Cat...

Im like that with painting my army, but i dont really wanna paint 120 zombies.... However my Warband will be painted, as its only 13 models, so i can do that and of course ill post pics whenever that gets done.

Edit: Ok this isnt specific to Mordheim, but its kinda related. While assembling one of my Dregs i stuck a magnet in his side backwards, so obviously it doesnt work now. So does anybody know how to break a super glue bond? FYI the magnet is in the model, as in i drilled a small hole and that is where it sits. Any help is appreciated.

[Blackhawk748]

This is what happens when i get bored at work, i think of Mordheim Scenarios (or are these events?)

Scenarios for Fun and Profit

1. Havoc on the High Ground
Special: When you roll this Scenario roll on the scenario table in the Mordheim core book to determine the scenario objective.
Warning: This Scenario works best on a map with a LOT of terrain.

Rules: Floodwaters: At the beginning of the second turn and every turn thereafter roll 1d6+the current turn number, if the total is 7 or higher the map floods. Any model not at least 1" off of ground level (this should be determined before the game) must make a Strength check or be swept 1d6 inches downstream (this should also be determined before the game). If the model would hit a piece of terrain its takes an automatic hit, with Str equal to the distance it would have continued to travel.

Also all movement at ground level is halved, rounded up.

2. Winds of Magic
Special: When you roll this Scenario roll on the scenario table in the Mordheim core book to determine the scenario objective.

Rules: Winds of Magic: All casters in this Scenario may receive a +1 on their casting rolls (choose when rolling to cast)

Winds of Chaos: If double 1s are rolled on a casting check while claiming the +1 from Winds of Magic, a Murder Daemon is summoned randomly on the board. Place a marker in the middle of the battlefield and roll a scatter die and 4d6 to determine where it comes in, measured from the marker

Murder Daemon


M
WS
BS
S
T
W
I
A
LD


2d6
4
0
4
4
3
4
3
9


Equipment: The Daemon has no equipment and suffers no penalties for striking unarmed.
Special Rules: Daemon, Frenzy, Chaotic Movement, Large Target
Daemon: The Murder Daemon has a special 5+ armor save, this is modified as normal by a high strength and various weapon types. Magic Weapons completely bypass this save. Daemons are also Immune to Posion and Psychology and cause Fear.
Chaotic Movement:The Murder Daemon takes its turn in between the two players turns, it moves by rolling a Scatter Die and 2d6. It ignores any intervening terrain, weather by jumping or flying short distances.
Frenzy: This is the normal rule from the core book with one addition, the Murder Daemon charges the first target it can see (it can see 8", twice its Initiative)

Winds of Fortune: If a warband slays the Murder Daemon they receive D3 Wyrdstone (or Treasures) and +1 Experience to allocate.

3. Rabble Rouser

Rules: Rabble Rabble Rabble!!:At the beginning of the game, after both players have deployed, roll 1d6+4. You and you opponent then take turns deploying that many Rabble. their deployment zone is anywhere within 12 inches of the table center.

Rabble


M
WS
BS
S
T
W
I
A
LD


4
3
3
3
3
1
3
1
7


Equipment: Torch and (roll 1d6) 1-2 Dagger, 3-4 Club, 5-6 Spear
Angry Mob!!: They're Angry! As such they are immune to Fear and must attack the nearest (non Rabble) model they can see, which thanks to the torch, is 7"
What are you angry about?: The rabble is unfocused, as such use a scatter die to determine what direction they move, Rabble cannot run.
The Rabble goes last in the turn order.

Objectives: The Warband who took the most models out of Action is the winner, obviously Rabble count for this.

Rewards: Survive: Each Surviving Hero or Henchmen group gains +1 Experience if it wasnt taken out of action.
Winner: The winning Warband's leader gains +1 Experience.
Kill Count:Heroes and Henchmen groups gain +1 Experience for each model they take out of action

[Blackhawk748]

Battle Report


The Hand of the King
Vampire w/ Sword and Axer-125
Necromancer w/ Dagger and shortbow-40
Dreg w/ bow, and Mace-33
Dreg w/ bow, and Mace-33
Dreg w/ Heavy Armor, Mace, Shield-78
Zombie-15
Zombie-15
Zombie-15
Zombie-15
Zombie-15
Zombie-15
Dire Wolf-50
Dire Wolf-50

Maneaters
Captain w/ Sword and Iron Fist
Mountain Guide w/ Ogre Club and Sword
Youngblood w/ Spear and Iron Fist
Youngblood w/ Sword and Ogre Club


The Scenario
Street Fight: I was not happy about this as my Warband is slow, but whatever.

The Ogres got first go,so they set up taking up the whole street and they just walked.
Then i went, My zombies where split in two groups of 3 on each side of my vamp and puppies in the middle of the street, with bow dregs behind and melee Dreg on the left and Necro on the right (he rolled Spell of Awakening :smallyuk:) and i walked and took a pot shot with my two bow Dregs. They missed.


Captain and Pig Sticker (youngblood with spear) charge my Dire Wolves (who were ranging in front like good doggies) Captain wacks one good and Knocks him down. The youngblood knocks the other over.

I go. My zombies advance menacingly, my Dregs and Necro shoot and score one wound between them on the other Youngblood, and my vamp charges the Mountain guide, He parries my only hit and then wallops me with a crit and takes me out of action (that was disturbingly quick.)

Ogre Captain nails my wolf, knocking him over again, an the other Youngblood charges and takes him out. Pigsticker misses and my wold takes a chunk out of his leg (go wolf!) Mountain guide charges Melee Dreg and stuns him.

Zombies charge!! Three zombies on the left charge the mountain guide and two make it to the Youngblood who took out my wolf. The three against the Guide manage to take out a wound (good lord :smalleek:) while the other two flail wildly. The Dregs and the Necro shoot the captain and manage a Wound!

Captain charges a Zombie and promptly takes him out. Pigsticker knocks over the wolf again (im sensing a trend here...) Mountain Guide takes out Melee Dreg and knocks over a Zombie.

Zombies go and Flail Ineffectually and my Dregs and Necro make a run for the other side of the board.

At this point we needed to call it as the Game store was closing, so we called it a Draw as this fight was all over. So the ogres end with the Youngbloods both at one wound, the Mountain Guide at full, and the Captain at 2. I am down 1 Zombie, a Dire Wolf, my Vamp and my Melee Dreg, but my three remaining heroes where making a B-line for the other street edge, so i could have gotten first off and maybe even dropped the two Youngbloods. All in all it was a good game and it was wacky as hell (as it should be) i just got stuck with a bad scenario for my warband.

And i just triple posted, bad me!

[Wraith]

Street Fight is hilarious when two of your Skaven Heroes have the Infiltrate skill. I only did it once - just to prove that it was possible, and then we scrubbed the game to do it "properly" - but turn 2 wins with no casualties are like sweet, sweet warpstone in my paws just for turning up. :smallbiggrin:

What races did your fellow campaigners choose in the end, Blackhawk? You said that the Ogres and Wood Elves were almost certain, are Sisters and bandits still on the agenda too? (I have to admit, in a new campaign I always think of the person who wants to bring Ogres as 'That Guy' but I'll try to hold my reservations in... reserve. :smallwink: )

[Blackhawk748]

Street Fight is hilarious when two of your Skaven Heroes have the Infiltrate skill. I only did it once - just to prove that it was possible, and then we scrubbed the game to do it "properly" - but turn 2 wins with no casualties are like sweet, sweet warpstone in my paws just for turning up. :smallbiggrin:

What races did your fellow campaigners choose in the end, Blackhawk? You said that the Ogres and Wood Elves were almost certain, are Sisters and bandits still on the agenda too? (I have to admit, in a new campaign I always think of the person who wants to bring Ogres as 'That Guy' but I'll try to hold my reservations in... reserve. :smallwink: )

Well our Woodelves player had to pull out and the Sisters of Sigmar player changed his mind. Hes looking at Cult of the Possessed now, he felt mean picking Sisters as they are really good against me, but only ok against everyone else. The Bandit player is still thinking, Bretonian Knights are a maybe (i think this would be a good choice).

Honestly i didnt find the Ogres all that bad. I mean theres only 4 of them. I kill one and he needs to do a Rout test. I just need to work on my tactics, and not get street fight lol

[Eldan]

I write scenarios too, mostly for an aborted campaign we once had. I had a similar one to yours with the flooding, except there was no current, the streets just got unpassable after a while. (Strength check to move). Also, we had rats coming out of the sewers. Skaven giant rats randomly spawing in the street and climbing up the walls to attack the nearest target.

[Neon Knight]

I've never played, but have been interested in TT Mordheim for a while now. My only real experience with Games Workshop products has been a very brief and abortive attempt to get into 40k and a lovely and lasting relationship with the also officially unsupported Bloodbowl. How does Mordheim play compared to those? Where can I find resources for it?

[Eldan]

The rules are free, but GW has restructured their site so often (and thrown out all the articles repeatedly) that I have no idea where they are now.

It's a basic skirmish system, and a good one. Compared to Blood Bowl... more complicated, I'd say. There's magic and shooting happening on the table. Though still much, much simpler than WHF.

[Wraith]

Honestly i didnt find the Ogres all that bad. I mean theres only 4 of them. I kill one and he needs to do a Rout test. I just need to work on my tactics, and not get street fight lol

Eh, I guess it depends. Only taking down 1 guy sounds fine, but if you have only s3 guys then it can be a nightmare to do any damage to a T5 multi-wound Fear-causing character.
Vampires and Possessed don't worry too much about it, but everyone else who isn't prepared will struggle.

I'm not screaming "OP!" or anything, but Ogres are very, very different to play against than other Warbands, so in any scenario that doesn't have an instant-win condition (like Street Fight) can easily turn into an unpleasant grind of hoping to roll 6's before your opponent rolls 4's.

[Blackhawk748]

I've never played, but have been interested in TT Mordheim for a while now. My only real experience with Games Workshop products has been a very brief and abortive attempt to get into 40k and a lovely and lasting relationship with the also officially unsupported Bloodbowl. How does Mordheim play compared to those? Where can I find resources for it?

Enjoy! (https://docs.google.com/folderview?id=0B18J5DU-6cP_aEg2dHIxbGpaMlk&usp=drive_web)

Also i recommend watching this. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYODjd2c09A&index=2&list=PLzrPO7KIAtwUfPKtBeSHL2ZGAHLnNMD__) Guerrilla Games does Throwback Thursdays and the past several have all been Mordheim. I recommend watching all of them as they are fairly entertaining and do a good job of showing what Mordheim is.


Eh, I guess it depends. Only taking down 1 guy sounds fine, but if you have only s3 guys then it can be a nightmare to do any damage to a T5 multi-wound Fear-causing character.
Vampires and Possessed don't worry too much about it, but everyone else who isn't prepared will struggle.

I'm not screaming "OP!" or anything, but Ogres are very, very different to play against than other Warbands, so in any scenario that doesn't have an instant-win condition (like Street Fight) can easily turn into an unpleasant grind of hoping to roll 6's before your opponent rolls 4's.

Oh ya i cant totally see that. I just really hope he doesnt get Toughness on his advancement chart. Or i hope i get Spell of Awakening again and then the goal becomes "kill an Ogre" :smallwink:

[Killer Angel]

As suggested, I should post my questions here, rather than in the general warhammer fantasy thread (:smalltongue:), so...


I'm starting to think to a warband for my first Mordheim's experience, entering a campaing already on the run.
The current warbands are:
Skaven (heavy magic and a cople of rat-ogres)
Carnival of chaos with plague cart and a tainted one full of blessings
Ogres... after the death of a leadbelcher and some poor performances, probably the player will skip to vampires
Humans (gunnery school of Nuln): Warband with many snipers, crazy skills and range. Actually the strongest one.

I'm planning to play dwarfs, with a mix of ranged and melee...
First doubts: quality or quantity? offence or defence?

what I'm thinking 'til now,:
HEROES:
Noble dwarf (Gromril armor, shield, helmet, dwarf axe). S3 it's not great, but the shield gives me a better defence than 2hWeap, and with the dwarf axe I get a parry. Should i lose the parry and the shield, in favor of a 2hW? (Note: For a starting warband, i pay gromril armor "only" 75).
Engineer (crossbow, light armor).
Troll Slayer (2 dwarf axes)
HENCHMEN
Thunderer (light armor, crossbow).

Tnx to the engineer, I'll have extra range on my xbows, so I should have some long-range cover, and my Lord should be hard to kill.
The Slayer is there because to have one extra hero is good, He can parry (and re-roll a failed one), and will have 4 attacks if he charges, but he's slow, and I don't know if he can reliably survive.
I've got another 50 to spend. More / better equipment for those 4 dwarfs, or should I add a half-naked Beardling?

[Wraith]

I played Dwarfs a little bit, a long, long time ago, but a few lessons still come to mind.

Your guys and equipment tends to be on the expensive side, so it's very important to have all of your heroes for the purposes of gathering gold and wyrdstone after a game. If I recall correctly, Trollslayers refuse to go scrounging but still count as a body for the purposes of working out your income (at least, in the version of rules that I was using) so with that in mind I'd say it's a good idea to get that Beardling early on.

I also found that if you can hit your opponent reliably, it's better to hit them hard and make sure that they go down rather than to hit them several times with lower odds of success. This is especially true if you have a fairly small warband, as you need to finish fights quickly before your opponent can bring their superior numbers to bare. With that in mind, I liked to give my Noble a 2Handed Axe - he's got decent Weapon Skill so use him to thin out the enemy ranks, trusting in your armour to ensure that they take rout tests before you do!

Arguably, same for the Trollslayer. Perhaps more so because he doesn't have armour, so he needs to be able to finish a fight quickly and then run for cover rather than stand around while archers line up good shots on him for a turn or two.

I think that covers most of what I remember.... I know that I always liked pistols more than crossbows, but then I deliberately kept my warband small in order to offset the 15+ models that I wielded in my Eshin warband, so feel free to ignore that particular recommendation. :smallsmile:

[VexingFool]

I think you have too much invested in armor for a starting warband. Dwarves are pretty tough with their toughness-4 and 'Hard to Kill'. As Wraith said you want to max out your heroes so you have a better chance at scrounging wyrdstone post battle. Then you can use that gold to buy better equipment. I'd go with something like this:

Dwarf Noble 85
- Dwarf Axe 15
- Hammer 3
- Light Armor 20
- Shield 5

Dwarf Engineer 50
- Crossbow 25
- Extra Dagger 2

Troll Slayer x2 100
- 4x Dwarf Axes 60

Thunderers x2 80
- Crossbow x2 50
- Extra Dagger x2 4

This gives you 4 heroes and 6 models total. You will probably have 2-3 heroes not be knocked out by the end of game which will generally put you on the 6-11 roll for 2 pieces of wyrdstone. Add +1 for the Dwarf Treasure hunter bonus and that means 3 pieces of wyrdstone which will net you 70 gold which you can upgrade your equipment with. If you manage to win and have all your heroes not get knocked out you are probably looking at 5 shards for 95 gold.

[Killer Angel]

First of all, tnx to y'all



I also found that if you can hit your opponent reliably, it's better to hit them hard and make sure that they go down rather than to hit them several times with lower odds of success. This is especially true if you have a fairly small warband, as you need to finish fights quickly before your opponent can bring their superior numbers to bare. With that in mind, I liked to give my Noble a 2Handed Axe - he's got decent Weapon Skill so use him to thin out the enemy ranks, trusting in your armour to ensure that they take rout tests before you do!


I think you have too much invested in armor for a starting warband. Dwarves are pretty tough with their toughness-4 and 'Hard to Kill'. As Wraith said you want to max out your heroes so you have a better chance at scrounging wyrdstone post battle. Then you can use that gold to buy better equipment.


OK, I can cut some armor and see what I can get. In the same way, I can give my lord a 2 handed axe and go for "hit hard".
The only issue about the "better equipment later", is that I really want to give my lord a gromril armor, because now I can have it at 75 gold as starting equipment, while later I'll have to roll for the rarity, and it will cost 150.
So I'll cut some equipment, while keeping the gromril armor; I'll post the new list.


EDIT:

(staying with "first: defence" for my Lord), here's a probable list:

HEROES:
Noble dwarf (Gromril armor, shield, helmet, dwarf axe). 190. (the anvil?)
Engineer (crossbow). 75
Troll Slayer (2 dwarf axes) 80
Troll Slayer (2 dwarf axes) 80

HENCHMEN
Thunderer (crossbow). 65

...and I'm even saving 10 golds.

[Blackhawk748]

EDIT:

(staying with "first: defence" for my Lord), here's a probable list:

HEROES:
Noble dwarf (Gromril armor, shield, helmet, dwarf axe). 190. (the anvil?)
Engineer (crossbow). 75
Troll Slayer (2 dwarf axes) 80
Troll Slayer (2 dwarf axes) 80

HENCHMEN
Thunderer (crossbow). 65

...and I'm even saving 10 golds.

Seems solid, i mean that Noble will be nigh on unkillable against most opponents, just watch out for hordes and you should be ok. Oh and Axes and Vampires with Axes, they will ruin your day

[VexingFool]

Looks good. Having 5 models will also prevent you from having to make a panic check after your first casualty. I'd use the extra 10 gold to give your engineer and thunderer an extra hand weapon for when they are inevitably involved in hand to hand. More attacks are always good and Dwarfs have good weapon skills.

You should have enough money to purchase an extra thunderer after each battle. I'd pick them up after the first few battles before the thunderer's XP level gets too high.

[Science Officer]

Fantasy player somewhat curious.
How possible would it be to create a Mordheim team? band? out of stuff from my skaven army.
Would there be lots of converting needed, or strange units (don't have any Eshin stuff).

[Janwin]

So, I can still see some potential issues with what you have, and improvements.

With Dwarves for Mordheim, there's a few things to keep in mind, some of which you already have.

1. always take max heroes. Always. Period. You need them in order to scavenge, and even with the Dwarf bonus of +1 Wyrdstone, you still need more heroes. Most other warbands start with 5 heroes, Dwarves start with 4.

2. armor isn't worth its cost. Due to there being so many different ways to bypass armor, it's not worth the cost at all. 75 gc seems cheap, until you realize that you can get a kitted clansman and beardling for the same cost. Axes and high strength reduce armor saves, and criticals can simply ignore armor saves. You're better off with the extra bodies early game, until you have nothing else to buy and can then put money into overcosted armor. Especially since everyone gets Toughness 4, so you're already more resilient than most.

3. Dwarves need lots of henchmen units. Remember that you start with 4 heroes, but have 6 hero slots. You're still allowed to have 6 heroes just like everyone else, which means you need to roll some "That Lad's Got Talent"s. The more henchmen you have, specifically in as many single henchman units as you can get, the more chances you have to upgrade one to a hero and increase your gold production with more scavenge rolls.

The list that I'm currently considering for a campaign is:



Heroes:

Noble; Dagger, Dwarf Axe, Hammer - 103

Engineer; Dagger, Crossbow, Hammer - 78

Troll Slayer; Dagger, Dwarf Axe, Dwarf Axe - 80

Troll Slayer; Dagger, Double-handed Weapon - 65

Henchmen:

1x Clansman; Dagger, Hammer, Axe - 48

1x Thunderer; Dagger, Crossbow, Hammer - 68

1x Beardling; Dagger, Hammer - 28

1x Beardling; Dagger, Hammer - 28

Warband Rating: 86

This list gives you 8 bodies, which is a lot for Dwarves. More attacks and more wounds is better. You can voluntarily route after losing your two Beardlings, who are simply there as meat shields for your better Dwarves (if you face an opponent who would likely wreck you, send the beardlings forward to die, and then route your more valuable Dwarves without a chance of losing them). With 4 henchmen, each time they rank up, that's 4 chances of getting another hero.



If you absolutely wanted to stick with the armor at the start, I'd suggest some minor changes:



Heroes:

Noble; Dagger, Gromril Armor, Dwarf Axe, Hammer - 178
I really dislike having 1 guy be over 35% of your total starting gc. Additionally, he costs as much as a fully kitted (to the nines) Vampire Lord, but isn't as good. You don't need the helmet since Dwarves already have a racial bonus that helps (helmets are nice, but buy it later), and you're better off with more attacks than one more armor from the shield.

Engineer; Dagger, Crossbow, Hammer - 78

Troll Slayer; Dagger, Dwarf Axe, Dwarf Axe - 80

Troll Slayer; Dagger, Double-handed Weapon - 65

At this point, you have 401 gc in heroes, leaving you with 99 for your henchmen.

Henchmen:

1x Thunderer; Dagger, Crossbow, Hammer - 68
Give the hammer so he's dual-wielding in melee. 2 attacks is very nice, and hammers are great and cheap.

1x Beardling; Dagger, Hammer - 28
Meat shield

Total GC: 497

Warband Rating: 76

In this list, you get 6 bodies. The problem is that you can't voluntarily route without losing (in the best case scenario) your beardling and your thunderer. Losing heroes sucks since they could end up crippled or dead, plus they don't get to loot if they're out of action, so it's best to try and avoid it however you can. However, in your 5 man list you're even worse off because you absolutely must lose a hero before you route.

[Janwin]

Fantasy player somewhat curious.
How possible would it be to create a Mordheim team? band? out of stuff from my skaven army.
Would there be lots of converting needed, or strange units (don't have any Eshin stuff).

Very possible. And very little converting. Skaven are pretty convenient in that they're all just rats holding different weapons.

[Eldan]

Unless you want an ogre, just buy a box of night runners. 20 plastic models, pretty cheap. And apparently made for Mordheim: the box contains several weapon options they can't have in fantasy, such as shields and spears. It also has swords, daggers, thrown weapons, climbing claws and slings. So the only things that need a bit of converting are pistols, magic and clubs, which are easy.

[Killer Angel]

2. armor isn't worth its cost. Due to there being so many different ways to bypass armor, it's not worth the cost at all. 75 gc seems cheap, until you realize that you can get a kitted clansman and beardling for the same cost. Axes and high strength reduce armor saves, and criticals can simply ignore armor saves. You're better off with the extra bodies early game, until you have nothing else to buy and can then put money into overcosted armor. Especially since everyone gets Toughness 4, so you're already more resilient than most.


My reasoning for that gromril + shield.
(leaving aside the fact that i like to imagine my lord with THE most iconic dwarven armor), in my meta I will probably face at most enemies with S5 or S4 with -1 to armor saves. So, we're talking about -2 to saves. This means that i should go for no armor at all, hoping in my toughness,, or go heavy... and gromril +shield, against those enemies, means a save at 5+. Not exceptional, but not bad.



3. Dwarves need lots of henchmen units. Remember that you start with 4 heroes, but have 6 hero slots. You're still allowed to have 6 heroes just like everyone else, which means you need to roll some "That Lad's Got Talent"s. The more henchmen you have, specifically in as many single henchman units as you can get, the more chances you have to upgrade one to a hero and increase your gold production with more scavenge rolls.


Good point with "got talent". I'll think on it, and see if I can squeeze in the list a beardling.

Tnx. :smallwink:

[Janwin]

The problem is that you're paying 80gc for that gromril + shield in order to get a 5+ save (unless they crit, and it's no save). That's 80gc that could buy you another 2 wounds and 4 attacks. Sure, if you make that 1/3 chance to save, great, but you're far better off with the extra bodies.

Let's do some math, because math is fun, right?

Your Dwarf Noble vs a Vampire Lord. We'll equip them with how they'd likely be set up.

Dwarf Noble: Gromril Armor, Shield, Dwarf Axe - 180 gc
Vampire Lord: Great Weapon, Helmet - 135 gc (wow, that means he can actually afford, in addition, 3 zombies too, but we'll discount them for now)

Dwarf swings:
Fear test! LD 10 means you have a pretty good chance to pass. 91.66% chance to pass. We'll say you pass for this example.
1 Attack at WS 5 vs WS 4. 3+ to hit.
S3 vs T4. 5+ to wound.
11% chance to cause a wound. 11% chance to cause a critical.
Ok, not bad.

Let's say you failed your fear test (9% chance of that happening).
1 Attack needing 6 to hit.
S3 vs T4. 5+ to wound.
2.7% chance to cause a wound. 2.7% chance to cause a critical.
Whoa, game over man.

Vampire swings:
2 Attacks at WS4 vs WS 5. 4+ to hit.
S6 vs T4 = 2+ to wound.
66% chance to cause a wound. 17% chance to cause a critical.
Against the normal hit, you get a 6+ armor save (fat lot of good that armor did you), meaning there's still a 55.5% chance that you take a wound when the Vampire swings.
Against the critical, there's a 33% chance that you even get a save, which again needs a 6+. So 17% of the time, the Vampire will crit you. 5% of the time you'll get a save against the hit. Which means that every time the Vampire swings, 12% of time your 80 points in armor is completely worthless.
Ouch!

So yeah, being able to say "well, they're only going to be S5 or S4, so armor still has use" is great, but once you add in critical hits to the mix, armor very rapidly loses value. Simply because it will get negated any time someone rolls a 6 to wound. Even that S3 zombie over there, rolling a 6 to wound, has a 66% chance that you don't get ANY armor against his S3 attack. So that 3+ armor save is lost completely against that S3 swing.

Crits are why armor isn't worth initial investment in Mordheim. Anyone can get lucky with a crit and gouge your eyes out through the slits in your impenetrable armor's visor.

The above scenario would have gone even worse for Mr. Dwarf Lord if the Vampire Lord had brought along his 3 Zombie friends that he got for the same cost. But it would have been less bad for Mr. Dwarf Lord if it was him and a beardling vs the Vampire Lord (which you'd have for 135gc if you didn't buy the armor).

[Janwin]

All that being said, I'm 100% with you on wanting the most iconic armor for Dwarves in my Mordheim force. However, what you lose in order to get it simply isn't worth it, particularly when just starting out as a warband. And when your Lord does eventually get taken out of action, you're probably going to lose it in the pits or something anyway.

I'm planning to use an Ironbreaker as my warband's Lord and just let people know he doesn't have armor. Because it just looks RIGHT for Dwarves to have armor.

Sadly, they made armor pretty worthless in Mordheim.

[Blackhawk748]

My Vamp is using an Axe and a Sword as i want him going first (love that Initiative) and i want more attacks, also Parry is nice.

The biggest bane of Armor is an Ogre with an Ogre club, they basically just scream "No armor for you!!" Though a vamp probably takes close second.


Fantasy player somewhat curious.
How possible would it be to create a Mordheim team? band? out of stuff from my skaven army.
Would there be lots of converting needed, or strange units (don't have any Eshin stuff).

Seconding the Nightrunners pack. I bought a box of Clan rats and all thats really missing for me is slings, but thats what green stuff is for :smallbiggrin:

[Killer Angel]

The above scenario would have gone even worse for Mr. Dwarf Lord if the Vampire Lord had brought along his 3 Zombie friends that he got for the same cost. But it would have been less bad for Mr. Dwarf Lord if it was him and a beardling vs the Vampire Lord (which you'd have for 135gc if you didn't buy the armor).

Well, I've got with me my friends Trollslayers, so i won't be alone. :smalltongue:
(of course, to have only heroes in melee is damn Dangerous)

That said:



Crits are why armor isn't worth initial investment in Mordheim. Anyone can get lucky with a crit and gouge your eyes out through the slits in your impenetrable armor's visor.

This (and Others) are good points. To go full armor with shield, is probably a waste of money at the beginning, I'll try to adjust the list.

[Janwin]

Well, I've got with me my friends Trollslayers, so i won't be alone. :smalltongue:

The point was that, for an equal number of GC, you wouldn't have your troll slayers with you, but he'd have 3 zombies with him. Sure, if we increased the GC total to allow you troll slayers, you'd have them. But he'd also have even more bodies to throw at you in return. It was to show that the Dwarf Lord is overcosted for what he does, when you add armor. Which sucks because Dwarves should have armor, but that's Mordheim.

[Janwin]

My Vamp is using an Axe and a Sword as i want him going first (love that Initiative) and i want more attacks, also Parry is nice.

Parry is definitely nice, except that it doesn't work if your opponent rolls a 6 to attack. You have to beat their roll to parry. So there's a 17% chance you just can't parry every swing.

Striking last does kind of suck, but your Vampire is pretty respectable with WS4, T4 and W2. So you can survive a hit and deliver the crippling blow back more than most other models. And with swinging at S6 with A2, you're going to put down whatever you swing at. Vampire Lords and Dwarfs are some of the best models to stick a great weapon on, the Lord because he can soak a hit or two and still swing back, and the Dwarfs because they're slow to begin with.

[Science Officer]

Seconding the Nightrunners pack. I bought a box of Clan rats and all thats really missing for me is slings, but thats what green stuff is for :smallbiggrin:

I don't really want to give GW anymore money... but I have always wanted to convert some Nightrunners into Gutter Runners. Any that aren't used for Mordheim could be be used for that.
I'll see what I can do with my existing clan rats and ogres, and then think about it some more.

[Killer Angel]

If you absolutely wanted to stick with the armor at the start, I'd suggest some minor changes:



Heroes:

Noble; Dagger, Gromril Armor, Dwarf Axe, Hammer - 178
I really dislike having 1 guy be over 35% of your total starting gc. Additionally, he costs as much as a fully kitted (to the nines) Vampire Lord, but isn't as good. You don't need the helmet since Dwarves already have a racial bonus that helps (helmets are nice, but buy it later), and you're better off with more attacks than one more armor from the shield.

Engineer; Dagger, Crossbow, Hammer - 78

Troll Slayer; Dagger, Dwarf Axe, Dwarf Axe - 80

Troll Slayer; Dagger, Double-handed Weapon - 65

At this point, you have 401 gc in heroes, leaving you with 99 for your henchmen.

Henchmen:

1x Thunderer; Dagger, Crossbow, Hammer - 68
Give the hammer so he's dual-wielding in melee. 2 attacks is very nice, and hammers are great and cheap.

1x Beardling; Dagger, Hammer - 28
Meat shield

Total GC: 497

Warband Rating: 76

In this list, you get 6 bodies. The problem is that you can't voluntarily route without losing (in the best case scenario) your beardling and your thunderer. Losing heroes sucks since they could end up crippled or dead, plus they don't get to loot if they're out of action, so it's best to try and avoid it however you can. However, in your 5 man list you're even worse off because you absolutely must lose a hero before you route.



I'm developing now a very similar list, with the lord without shield (I can always buy it later), the engineer, one Slayer with 2 dwarven axes, and one Slayer with one dwarven axe and a normal axe (with rarity 8 and 4 heroes, it won't be a problem to find another dwarven axe after the first game)
This way, I'll have the gold for the beardling.

When we'll play, I'll keep you all informed! :smallwink:

[Janwin]

Good luck!

[Blackhawk748]

Parry is definitely nice, except that it doesn't work if your opponent rolls a 6 to attack. You have to beat their roll to parry. So there's a 17% chance you just can't parry every swing.

Striking last does kind of suck, but your Vampire is pretty respectable with WS4, T4 and W2. So you can survive a hit and deliver the crippling blow back more than most other models. And with swinging at S6 with A2, you're going to put down whatever you swing at. Vampire Lords and Dwarfs are some of the best models to stick a great weapon on, the Lord because he can soak a hit or two and still swing back, and the Dwarfs because they're slow to begin with.

Valid, i just love the extra attack and when he levels hes gonna grab the skill that lets you parry on a match. Now i could just buy Strong Man (i think thats what its called) at use an at initiative GW, but i love having 3 attacks base, and with S 4 hes wrecking everything that isnt an Ogre, and i just let the Zombies and the Hounds drag the Ogres down.

[Eldan]

I don't really want to give GW anymore money... but I have always wanted to convert some Nightrunners into Gutter Runners. Any that aren't used for Mordheim could be be used for that.
I'll see what I can do with my existing clan rats and ogres, and then think about it some more.

THing is, you really, really want slings. As many slings as your opponents will let you have without walking away. They are amazing.

[Blackhawk748]

THing is, you really, really want slings. As many slings as your opponents will let you have without walking away. They are amazing.

About 10, you go more than that and people start getting cranky, unless they're Ogres, then they laugh.

[Janwin]

Pretty much. Slings are one of the most broken weapons in the game, particularly on fast Skaven. So you want as many of them as you can get away with.

A starting Skaven Warband I threw together to play around with would be:



Heroes:

Assassin Adept; Dagger, Fighting Claws - 95

Black Skaven; Dagger, Halberd - 50

Black Skaven; Dagger, Halberd - 50

Eshin Sorcerer; Dagger, Sling - 47

Night Runner; Dagger, Club, Sling - 25

Night Runner; Dagger, Club, Sling - 25

Henchmen:

8x Verminkin; Dagger, Club, Sling - 200

With 11 slings, 10 clubs, and 2 S5 attacks, all moving faster than any opponent you'll come against, you will lose friends running this list. Just a warning. @#$% Skaven.

The only way you're more likely to lose friends in Mordheim than running a Skaven list is running Carnival of Chaos and giving someone Nurgle Rot, since that can absolutely screw over any opponent you come up against for the entire duration of the campaign, just from them facing you once.

[Janwin]

unless they're Ogres, then they laugh.

Sadly, after the last campaign we ran at my FLGS where I won turn 1 through lucky rolls and a scenario that matched PERFECTLY for my list, people around here are pretty hesitant to allow non-Official warbands. So Skaven sling spam will just wreck everyone.

How I won a campaign on the first game:

I played Shadow Warriors (I've played High Elves in WHFB for years and have always loved the fluff and story around the Shadow Warriors, so for my first Mordheim game ever I was like "ooh! I have to do them since there's a list!"). My list was something like:



Heroes:

Shadow Master; Dagger, Sword, Elf Bow

Shadow Weaver; Dagger, Sword

Shadow Walker; Dagger, Sword, Longbow

Shadow Walker; Dagger, Sword, Longbow

Shadow Walker; Dagger, Sword, Longbow

Henchmen:

Shadow Warrior; Dagger, Sword, Longbow

Shadow Warrior; Dagger, Sword, Longbow

I might have only had one Shadow Warrior and some light armor and helmets or something. I don't really remember, but it was my first game, and before I knew armor wasn't good, so I probably did.



We did a big game with I think 8 players on a large terrain map. Scattered all over the map were Wyrdstones, and if you moved in contact with one, you could pick it up and as long as the person carrying it survived, they'd be added to your looting total at the end of the game. I brokered a deal with a Brettonian player to my left to not engage each other and to instead cleanse this city of the filth of Chaos and its servants first, so my left flank was secure. To my other side was a Skaven player, and directly ahead of me was an Orc mob (I was in the corner).

I roll my Wizard's spell, since it's the first game and I hadn't done it yet. Cloak of Darkness. Cloak of Darkness, when cast, lasts until the wizard attacks someone. Until that point, the wizard cannot BE attacked. This meant I now had an immune wizard who literally just ran around the battlefield with his elven speed picking up Wyrdstones. The rest of my warband farmed XP at long range with their bows, plinking off Skaven.

At the end of the game, I had so much more XP and GC than everyone else that it was pretty much game over. From that point forward, everyone I fought got underdog experience, and my elves got kitted out to the nines. Their first big purchase was an Ogre Bodyguard, because meat shield.

[Blackhawk748]

This is why Shadow Warriors are Bull****, that was the first thing i was told when playing Mordheim, "Dont let anyone play Shadow Warriors" Thankfully no one wanted to.

Ill be honest, outside of that one band, the unofficial bands are pretty decent. One buddy is playing Bandits and they have a good mix of stuff and another is playing Ogre Maneaters. Now i would usually be terrified of that, but he has 4 models, and ive already proven that my Zombies can drag his heroes down. So ya, besides Shadow Warriors, who are Bull****, the unofficial lists are usually ok.

[Janwin]

I would disagree that Shadow Warriors are bull****.

In that case, a lucky roll for the spell, and a scenario that fit it EXACTLY at the start of the campaign is what did it. The board had Wyrdstones for 8 people on it, so being able to grab a ton was stupid, and sheer luck due to the 1/6 chance of rolling that spell. If it was a 1v1 game, or I hadn't of rolled that spell, it would have been much much different. Or if I hadn't brokered a truce with a guy on my flank. Or if the Skaven had actually pushed my group of, what, 5 guys instead of skirting around letting me pick them off. Or if the Orcs had pushed my group. Instead, the scenario just played out perfectly for my list, and I was able to take advantage of it. I took advantage of fluff by brokering a truce with other forces of Order, I took advantage of a lucky spell roll, I took advantage of the other players completely ignoring me and letting me just plink at them with arrows. That's not Shadow Warriors being broken. That's luck and the other players not attacking me.

Shadow Warriors have a number of things which limit them.

1. low body count - Elves are expensive. Very expensive. You start the campaign having 7 guys at the most. Less if you want to gear them better than I did in that list.

2. average toughness - Elves are T3. For their cost, that's not very good. When you can get 2 humans of the same toughness for the cost of an Elf, that's a tough trade off.

3. high hero XP - Shadow Warriors start with 12 XP on their lowest heroes. This means that you don't get as many hero rank ups, or as quickly as the more XP you have the slower you get them. They don't have any 0 XP heroes, allowing them to rank up a hero quickly.

4. S3 ranged attacks, at best. No crossbows, no black powder. Just bows.

5. high hero cost. Lose one, and you're pretty screwed. 45 gc before gear for your cheapest hero means that if you lose one, you're not buying anything else for a while.

6. no hammers, the best melee weapon in the game. No axes, so no way to reduce armor except through a great weapon which completely negates your high initiative.

7. no strength skills, unless you take a skill first (maximum of 2 elves can have it) that allows you to take strength skills. So if you want to wield a great weapon at initiative, you have to dump 2 skill upgrades into it.

8. no cheap weapons. Your lowest cost melee weapon (aside from a second dagger at 2gc) is a sword at 10gc. So no cheap hammer/dagger throwaway mooks.

I'm amused that you were told that Shadow Warriors were the only broken force in the unofficial lists, and that they're the only bull****. Considering that Dark Elves are just as good, if not better. And cheaper.

If you get lucky with elves, yeah, you're gonna do great. But most likely you're going to face a Skaven player with more than twice the bodies you do, slings and all the other crap they get and you're going to get your **** kicked in. Or face Marienburgers with crossbows and get shot to death by weight of fire. Or face undead and get swarmed by zombies.

[Blackhawk748]

If you get lucky with elves, yeah, you're gonna do great. But most likely you're going to face a Skaven player with more than twice the bodies you do, slings and all the other crap they get and you're going to get your **** kicked in. Or face Marienburgers with crossbows and get shot to death by weight of fire. Or face undead and get swarmed by zombies.

Like i said, thats what i heard. Which is odd as thats the only "broken" Warband ive ever heard of, otherwise i just hear about broken lists, like the Slingwall. Remember kids, friends dont let friends run Skaven Slingwall

[Eldan]

Probably because I've never heard of a dark elf list, but I've seen shadow warriors on the table and they are, indeed, bull****.

[Blackhawk748]

Probably because I've never heard of a dark elf list, but I've seen shadow warriors on the table and they are, indeed, bull****.

Heres (https://docs.google.com/folderview?id=0B18J5DU-6cP_SVZSSWdFeEl4OG8&usp=drive_web&tid=0B18J5DU-6cP_aEg2dHIxbGpaMlk) where i get all my info, and Dark Elves are in there. I think they may have a few lists.

I think the main problem with Shadow Warriors is that spell. There are several missions that can be one without having to fight, and with the Mage having the ability to do that is insane, even if its only a 1/6 chance. Also while you may have very expensive units, they are all BS 4, and while Bows aren't the greatest ranged weapon ever, they have one of the longest ranges in the game, and that is huge.

I will also agree that their melee weapons arent great, but why in gods name are you getting into melee anyway?? Just turn everything into a pincushion from half the board away and stay Hidden thanks to Sniper. On top of this they have one of the best spell list i think ive ever seen. Granted most require you to be by a wall, but this is Mordheim, that shouldnt be a problem.

Edit: I should have looked at this list sooner, its insane. It just screams "Im Batman with a Bow"

[Killer Angel]

Heres (https://docs.google.com/folderview?id=0B18J5DU-6cP_SVZSSWdFeEl4OG8&usp=drive_web&tid=0B18J5DU-6cP_aEg2dHIxbGpaMlk) where i get all my info, and Dark Elves are in there. I think they may have a few lists.

I think the main problem with Shadow Warriors is that spell. There are several missions that can be one without having to fight, and with the Mage having the ability to do that is insane, even if its only a 1/6 chance.

The other way to look at it, is "I've got 1/6 chance to basically win hands down the mission"

[Blackhawk748]

The other way to look at it, is "I've got 1/6 chance to basically win hands down the mission"

Thats valid, also the rest of that spell list is freakin sweet, one makes you do a S test at 2d6 and if you fail you count as Stunned, another lets all the elves within 6 inches of the caster Hide. That spell list is great.

[Janwin]

I think the main problem with Shadow Warriors is that spell. There are several missions that can be one without having to fight, and with the Mage having the ability to do that is insane, even if its only a 1/6 chance. Also while you may have very expensive units, they are all BS 4, and while Bows aren't the greatest ranged weapon ever, they have one of the longest ranges in the game, and that is huge.



So do Reiksland Marksmen, for 25 GC. And they can get crossbows for BS 4, S4, same range.


I will also agree that their melee weapons arent great, but why in gods name are you getting into melee anyway?? Just turn everything into a pincushion from half the board away and stay Hidden thanks to Sniper.

It's Mordheim. There should be a lot of terrain. You're rarely going to use the full range granted by a long bow or elf bow (or crossbow, for that matter). People will get to you, so you will need to defend yourself in melee.


On top of this they have one of the best spell list i think ive ever seen. Granted most require you to be by a wall, but this is Mordheim, that shouldnt be a problem.

Yep, most require walls. And if your opponents know that, they can easily avoid them.


The other way to look at it, is "I've got 1/6 chance to basically win hands down the mission"

Not really. Even if you have your wizard go immune, it means he's not fighting. When you are already outnumbered, removing another attack from your output means you're going to lose the attrition battle even harder. If your warband routes before your stealth wizard can get the objective, you don't win. And even many of the objective missions require one of the warbands to route, so if you can't make your opponent route due to so few attacks, you still don't win.


Thats valid, also the rest of that spell list is freakin sweet, one makes you do a S test at 2d6 and if you fail you count as Stunned, another lets all the elves within 6 inches of the caster Hide. That spell list is great.

1. it's not stunned. It's that the model can't move. Big difference. The model can still shoot, cast, etc. And they have to be within 2" of a wall. You can also break the spell by wounding the caster.

2. all elves within 6" hiding is pretty damn good, but if you move a guy into the radius it's dispelled, so there's a counter to it. It also needs to be cast every turn.

Their magic list is certainly good, but it's not as crazy as you seem to believe. I could do without the invisibility one that makes you immune, and it's really the one that if you get lucky enough to get has the most possibility to have an affect on the game, but most magic lists have powerful spells.

Sigmar: Hammer of Sigmar - +2 Strength and all hits cause 2 wounds instead of 1.
Soulfire - All enemies within 4" suffer a S3 hit, no armor saves allowed.
Armour of Righteousness - 2+ armor save and causes fear

Necromancy: Lifestealer - target within 6" suffers a wound and you gain a wound.
Spell of Doom - Strength test or injury table roll.

Rat: Black Fury - +2 attacks and +1 strength, charge 12"

Orc: Zzap! - 12" range, D3 S4 hits, no armor saves.
Clubba - +2 strength and +1 attack

Carnival of Chaos: Buboes - Toughness test or take a wound, no armor allowed.
Pestilence - All enemy models within 12" suffers a S3 hit, no armor allowed.
Scabrous Hide - 2+ armor save.
Nurgle's Rot - (One of the most broken spells in the game), All enemy models in base contact with Master must immediately test against Toughness or contract Nurgle's Rot; Nurgle's Rot - before each battle, if you have Nurgle's Rot, test Toughness. If you fail, you permanently lose 1T. If you roll a 6, someone else in your warband also contracts Nurgle's Rot.

So, yeah. Elves get to hide (note that unless they have Sniper, they can't shoot while hiding) in the open, can do a single S4 hit with no armor saves as long as someone is near a wall, can teleport from one wall to another wall, can make someone stand in place, and can give a 5+ armor save to himself or someone else. It's a neat spell list, and a thematic list, but it's certainly not overpowered. Cloak of Darkness is probably overpowered in certain situations, and if it were removed from the list I wouldn't have a problem. But there are enough limiting factors to the Shadow Warrior list that they're actually pretty well balanced, especially compared to a lot of the other crazy powerful stuff in Mordheim.

[Killer Angel]

Carnival of Chaos: Buboes - Toughness test or take a wound, no armor allowed.
Pestilence - All enemy models within 12" suffers a S3 hit, no armor allowed.
Scabrous Hide - 2+ armor save.
Nurgle's Rot - (One of the most broken spells in the game), All enemy models in base contact with Master must immediately test against Toughness or contract Nurgle's Rot; Nurgle's Rot - before each battle, if you have Nurgle's Rot, test Toughness. If you fail, you permanently lose 1T. If you roll a 6, someone else in your warband also contracts Nurgle's Rot.


Well, yeah, that spell list is nasty.
Of course, there are (some) countermeasures to it. The renges are not huge, and the caster will be the primary target for any trick shooter.

[Killer Angel]

Update!

SO, Yesterday i ran my first game, with my band of 6 dwarfs... against the band of Nuln (basically, the strongest and richest one, in the current campaign).
The scenario was the one where you must take control of d3+2 buildings.
Luckily for me, my opponent played cautiously for a good half of the game (for the first time he was facing some long-range shooting), but nonetheless his band was stronger and larger than mine (we're talking about a difference of 90 xps), so he constantly gained terrain.
IN the end, he won the scenario, taking 3 buildings on 4, but when his halberdiers tried to "test" my troll slayers, I scored 2 kills.
I wasn't playing to win the objectives, but to gain the best i could... and in the end, I didn't lost any model, and I gained a nice load of xps. :smallsmile:

[Janwin]

Plus underdog XPs, which helps to catch you up to him.

[Killer Angel]

Plus underdog XPs, which helps to catch you up to him.

Yeah, +2 is really nice... :smallwink:

[Janwin]

Every henchman group ranks up. Let's go "That Lad's Got Talent", don't fail me now!

Not losing anyone is sometimes better than winning the scenario, so good job!

[Eldan]

Hooray for cautious opponents!

That said, there's overconfident opponents, too. I once played against Sisters. Their mission was to reach my table edge with a hero, or something like that anyway. So the sisters player decided to just take his most heavily armoured hero and have them run down the middle of the main street in the middle of the field to reach the edge as soon as possible. Ran into a full party of skaven, many with slings, all in cover. Without support.

[Blackhawk748]

Very nice, id call that a win. This is why i love Mordheim, you can lose the scenario but still "win"

[Killer Angel]

Every henchman group ranks up. Let's go "That Lad's Got Talent", don't fail me now!


Let's say the luck will favor me next time. :smalltongue:


Hooray for cautious opponents!

That said, there's overconfident opponents, too. I once played against Sisters. Their mission was to reach my table edge with a hero, or something like that anyway. So the sisters player decided to just take his most heavily armoured hero and have them run down the middle of the main street in the middle of the field to reach the edge as soon as possible. Ran into a full party of skaven, many with slings, all in cover. Without support.

Thats...
A very good roleplaying of Blind Faith in your own superiority. :smallbiggrin:



Very nice, id call that a win. This is why i love Mordheim, you can lose the scenario but still "win"

That was my thougth as well.

Anyway, next game will probably be against a vampire warband.

[Eldan]

I've known that sisters player for years. He always had an, uhm, unusual understanding of strategy. And the rules, sometimes.

[Blackhawk748]

Anyway, next game will probably be against a vampire warband.

Oooh, do you know what he has? Ive found Vamp players seems to be less cautious, mostly because Zombies are stupid cheap.

[Killer Angel]

I've known that sisters player for years. He always had an, uhm, unusual understanding of strategy. And the rules, sometimes.

Reminds me a guy that was a Bretonnian fan. He doesn't play no more, which is a pity, because he was the only one with that army.



Oooh, do you know what he has? Ive found Vamp players seems to be less cautious, mostly because Zombies are stupid cheap.

Not sure about it: his old warband was Ogres, and his new list was still not finished last week (I played against Nuln because of that).
AFAIK there will be a Vamp with 2 weapons and lots of zombies. For the rest, I've no idea.

And yeah, that player likes to play head down aggressive.

[Janwin]

Some friends and I started up a new Mordheim campaign locally, and we had our first game a couple nights ago. We're flavoring it up, and thus are doing things like writing journal entries from the point of view of our warband. Here's my Dwarf Noble's account of the day:

-- An excerpt from the journal of Thane Thruffgar Dorrimsmar: --

October 6, 1999IY

Having left my hold in search of riches to restore the glory of my clan, I've arrived in the city the surface dwellers call Mordheim. The stories about this place are true; the city is in utter ruins with not a single building still whole. Though compared to the cities under the mountains, even before the comet arrived this city would have been underwhelming.

This morning, my engineer, Brogar Grimnirsson, reported hearing rumors of an abandoned treasure somewhere in the Rich Quarter, so we made our way toward that section of the city.

Upon arriving, we found a band of humans, fancying themselves the Reclamation League or something silly like that, trying to recover the treasure that was rightfully ours! This could not be allowed to stand, so we began searching buildings in the hope of finding the treasure before them, while maneuvering to be able to force them off through axe and hammer.

As I led a small group consisting of Brogar, Lokri and Strom around a building to engage a pair of lone humans on the other side of the building, I heard a young lad inside the building exclaim, "It's here! The treasure!" Grungni smiles upon us this day to grant us such fortune as the treasure being so close.

Strom charged off against a soon-to-be unfortunate man with a halberd while I and Lokri moved into the building to explain the meaning of "tactical silence" to the foolish lad. We found him inside dragging a large chest, but before I could bring my axe to bear, Brogar shot the lad through the window with his pistol.

Lokri joined Strom in dispatching the other lad near the building, while I began dragging the treasure away.

From the reports I was told after my band gathered together, it seems that a few buildings over Fodrin, Grim, and Skalf were defending a building from a number of heavily armed humans, while Sindri tried to pick off their leader running in the open.

After seeing their leader go down to a crossbow bolt, the cowardly humans fled in panic, not realizing that their leader wasn't actually dead, but just stunned. I suspect he'll have strong words for them later.

Once I had dragged the chest to safety, we opened it to see what treasures lay inside; a paltry 11 gold crowns. No jewels, no artifacts, no fine armors...just 11 gold crowns. It seems that Grungni's favor was not meant to last for long...

[Killer Angel]

A nice report, I have to say. I like the feeling it gives.
And it seems a solid victory for the dwarfs, even if not so "rich" in gold. :smallwink:

[Janwin]

The reports from other players:


Journal of Captain Dietrich Rauber of the Acquisitions Company

October 6, 1999 IY

Finally arrived in Mordheim, this wretched ****hole of a city just ripe for the plucking. Just a few months ago, I had gathered some brave men together to shake down this city for all it was worth. There was my good friend, Hans Spitze, and his younger brother Otto, come with a pair of marksmen to give us some valuable firepower against our rivals in the city. I’d recruited Sgt. Karl Hacken and his men from the Marienburg militia to act as our vanguard against foes, their tenacity and eagerness to fight would serve us well. I’d also recruited a pair of master swordsmen for that extra bit of finesse and skill that could tip a close fight, nothing quite like a duel to catch people’s attention. And lastly, there is my younger brother Gunther, who can come get some experience readying himself for command one day.

We’d heard rumors of a great treasure hidden within a stretch of city streets around the nobles district. Nobles always have good coin and valuables lying around, as well as personal effects that they might pay dearly to have retrieved. No sooner had we moved into the street but Hans gave out a shout, ‘Dwarves!’ It seems a greedy pack of them had come down out of the mountains, no doubt here for the same reasons we did.

Having the advantage of numbers, we immediately secured one building to give us a strong point where Hans and his marksmen could fire away at any approaching dwarves. Most of my men took the open ground next to it, sweeping around to check the other buildings for any sign of the treasure. After all, with such stunty legs, if we got the treasure first we could just run off with it.

Things started to go wrong almost immediately, one of Hans’ men went down to a crossbow bolt from a dwarf positioned across the way. And we were finding nothing at all on the left flank. Then we heard a shout from the right hand side, Otto had found the treasure and clued us all to his find. Unfortunately that was where a large number of dwarves were lurking about, and the pistol crack followed by Otto’s cry of pain told us that we’d need to push hard to get our hands on the treasure.

Too many of my men were out of position though, and we soon got bogged down fighting with a trio of dwarves near one of the buildings. I started moving in closer, hoping I could get a shot at the crossbowman and cut off the dwarves’ retreat but a bolt clipped my head and I went down. Apparently the lads thought this meant to run away, and broke away from the dwarves, leaving them to their ill-gotten gains.

Though we had to abandon that stretch of streets we did manage to find a dead man in some fancy clothes, and Karl was more than willing to toss his pockets. 11 Gold Crowns… rather nice of him to leave lying around. After this experience, I’ve come to the conclusion that we’ve both got to use our heads, and got to guard our heads better too. Picked up some nice helmets to go around, and got ourselves a map of the city. Even found a place that looks like it has a nice haul… we’ll be heading there soon.

And then there’s Otto… poor boy seems to have taken getting shot rather poorly. He’s practically frothing and ready to stab somebody dead. Hopefully can find some enemies who are nice enough to oblige.



(The following is a letter from mercenary captain Rudi Spurrier, leader of the Rude Boys, presumed written in early October of 1999 IY)

My Dearest Gilda,

I do hope you are well. It must be trying living in that estate alone. You know I still regret having to leave you. If only we weren't in such dire straits. I know you understand why I made the decision to leave, despite the danger, and I love you for it. It is unfortunate that I must write to you with the knowledge that the danger you feared is all too real.

My pen is difficult to wield in my left hand, so that would explain this shoddy handwriting. The left is all I have to use currently as my right arm is bound tightly after having taken a wound in a skirmish three days ago. Cousin Ferris lies in the bed beside mine with a leg wound. Do not worry overly, we shall recover. What laid us up is another matter. Orcs. Of all things.

We had just managed to secure an area rich in the wyrdstone when we heard this insane bellow followed by the loud beating of feet. Ferris called out when he saw them. He and I raced to cover the company while they scrambled for order. Our marksmen flung their bolts over our heads. At first it seemed their excellent aim would stop the monsters in their tracks. But then, and I am not exaggerating or remembering a nightmare, one of the orcs who had taken a bolt in the neck stood back up. He pulled the bolt out, gave a gurgling laugh, and kept coming. Not a single one of the monsters stayed down. After they saw that, the boys were too shaky for the bolts to hit their marks.

The rush was simply too fast. Before long we were overrun. Your brother Jake held our left flank well, even managing to kill one of the monsters himself. But on our right, where Ferris and I were, it was different. The biggest creature I've ever seen came at us swinging two axes. We were laid low. Luckily, the providence of Sigmar deigned to save Ferris and I. The orcs weren't intent on our deaths, as they ran by us without dealing a killing blow, off to whatever prize such monsters are interested in.

I was not awake to witness as the company scattered and fled. It was no less than Jake who had the wherewithal to gather as many of the shards we found as he could while we fled. They have since been sold for a modest sum, some of which I have sent you along with this letter. Imagine though, how much more it would be if those orcs hadn't appeared. With that in mind I had one of our scouts find which way the orcs headed. We will not be headed that way anytime soon.

While I lie here your brother Jake has taken the company out once more. He is under strict orders to be cautious. I honestly would have preferred him to stay in safety until Ferris and I are well again, but the monetary needs of a mercenary company will prevent such a thing. I will keep them in my prayers along with you.

Until I see you again my dear,

Rudi

[Blackhawk748]

Those journals are sweet, what warband are the Rude Boys?

[Janwin]

Acquisitions Company is Marienburg.

Rude Boys is Reikland (I believe).

I'm playing Dwarfs and we also have an Orc player.

Another is playing Beastmen, but hasn't gotten a game in yet. And another wants to use his wood elves, so we're considering the Mordenheimer list (doesn't seem too absurd). And another might join but who knows.

[Killer Angel]

Update.


Oooh, do you know what he has? Ive found Vamp players seems to be less cautious, mostly because Zombies are stupid cheap.

Vampire (heavy armor, sword and shield)
Necromancer
Dreg (bow)
Dreg (bow)
Dreg (bow)
8 Zombies
1 Dire Wolf

[Blackhawk748]

Update.



Vampire (heavy armor, sword and shield)
Necromancer
Dreg (bow)
Dreg (bow)
Dreg (bow)
8 Zombies
1 Dire Wolf

Looks a lot like my list, except i have the armor on a dreg and he hits stuff with a mace, and i went with the extra wolf instead of two zombies. Expect him to be aggressive, especially if he got Reanimate.

[Killer Angel]

Expect him to be aggressive, especially if he got Reanimate.

Dwarves Vs Undead

My band was (obviously) in a defensive position, with the 2 crossbows placed on high ground and the rest of the group hidden behind the ruins.
My opponent used a weird strategy... all his 5 heroes remained well hidden, and never entered into play.
The 8 zombies were the only ones advancing, along with the wolf, trying to use cover when possible. His reasoning was: "i don't care to win the scenario, i only want to suffer the losses I need to flee: my heroes will search for weirdstone... zombies are cheap and my gain will be Greater than losses".
The wolf, in the end, even if it could have charged, never entered combat.
I "killed" 3 zombies with shooting, and other 2 in CC, without suffering a single hit.

The final result wasn't exceptional for the Vampire: in the aftermath, he found 3 stones, but of the 5 zombies, 3 rolled a 1, thus meaning a loss of 45 gc.

I gained 4 stones, a map of Mordheim, an advancement in BS for the engineer; then I hired a second beardling and a Clansmen.

In the end, a very easy victory and a nice reward. Next time, I'll hire a second thunderer.

[Dvil]

I've not had much chance to play the tabletop game recently but I've been playing City of the Damned a lot instead now that they've introduced warband progression. I'm playing as cult of the possessed, and I'm loving the random mutations. I have a marauder who got the "featureless face" mutation, and then later on my darksoul managed to grow a second face. So I guess it balances out? I have to say, for me the PC game really does seem to capture what I love about the tabletop.

[Janwin]

So, our campaign has continued to progress, and my Dwarfs are becoming a scary force to reckon with (then again, so are most of the warbands).

Currently:

Heroes:

Noble - Dagger, 2x Dwarf Axe, Helmet
Advances: +1 Initiative (lulz Dwarf?), Master of Blades
31 XP

Engineer - Dagger, Hammer, 2x Pistol, Helmet
Advances: +1 BS, Eagle Eyes, Trick Shooter, Resource Hunter
20 XP
(This guy has become a beast. 15" pistol range ignoring cover saves is brutal.)

Troll Slayer - Dagger, Hammer
Advances: +2 Initiative (the hell?!?), +1 S
Injuries: -1 T
18 XP
(Yup. That's an I4, S4, T3 Dwarf Slayer. Your guess is as good as mine.)

Troll Slayer - Dagger, Hammer, Axe
Advances: +1 S
12 XP
(Poor guy's not gotten many kills, and has missed a fight or two. He's getting left behind.)

Longbeard (Clansman) - Dagger, Hammer, Axe, Helmet
Advances: (Lad's Got Talent), +1 Initiative (anyone noticing a trend?), +1 WS
5 XP

Henchmen:

Beardlings x2 - Dagger, Hammer
Advances: +1 S, +1 WS
5XP
(These guys are actually better, and cheaper, than a stock Clansman now. Beardlings my butt. I need to get them helmets.)

Clansmen x2 - Dagger, Double Handed Weapon
Advances: +1 A
4XP
(2 swings with a great weapon? Yes please! I'm hoping one of them will rank up so I can swing at initiative instead of last.)

Thunderers x3 - Dagger, Hammer, Crossbow
Advances: +1 A, +1 BS
5XP

Warband Rating: 160

All things considered, I'm getting pretty good rolls on the upgrades tables. Except for a lot of Initiative. My dwarfs are apparently on speed or something.