Optimise me an Expert!

[Socksy]

I've been curious about running an expert as a PC for a while now, I don't mind taking other NPC class levels, but I want to avoid the PC classes.

I'm considering pumping my Craft (Alchemy), Craft (Trapmaking), and Hide skills into the stratosphere, plus whichever Craft skill would allow me to slowly turn a basic cart into a nightmare of offensive weapons for anything which gets near it- poison, acid, etc.

It's a very lenient DM, so dodgy optimisation tricks will PROBABLY be fine.

We're starting at level 3, but it would be nice if I had some idea where the build would go after that.

Can anyone help me?

EDIT: 32 point buy. Considering a kobold for the bonus to trapmaking, and dragonwrought because dragonwrought.

[Extra Anchovies]

With Quick Draw and EWP (Gnome Quickrazor) you can make good use of Iaijutsu Focus, which can give you high enough damage to stay relevant through the early-mid levels. Wild Cohort is another great pick, and UMD can get you pretty far.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Warning: Craft (Alchemy) requires you being a spellcaster to make many of its items. Dip Adept if you want to use it.
Kingdoms of Kalamar Core Rulebook has rules for altering poisons. They get expensive but you can improve DCs and damage to make them more relevant.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Cherry pick useful/affordable stuff from Shax's Indispensable Haversack until you can afford the full list.

Max UMD and get wands of spells like Web and Power Word: Pain.

Consider switching to Factotum in Dungeonscape, it's basically an Expert with class features, and you don't have to pick what class skills you want because every skill is a class skill for them.

[nedz]

I use Expert quite a bit, but only for NPCs.

I made a Dwarven Mining Professor a while back, and more recently a temple Librarian.

I'm not sure about using the class for an adventurer though unless as a dip. An entire party of Experts could be hilarious however.

Abuse Magic Device is an obvious trick.

You could probably make a circus acrobat and get them into Thief-acrobat, though you would need to acquire Evasion somehow.

An explorer aiming for Thunder Guide or Horizon Walker would also work.

I'm not clear what any of these would do in combat though — and that does tend to be a major part of most campaigns.

[Socksy]

Consider switching to Factotum in Dungeonscape, it's basically an Expert with class features, and you don't have to pick what class skills you want because every skill is a class skill for them.

Intentionally avoiding Factotum since my DM loves them so much. I'm worried I'll either ruin them for him by playing one terribly, or ruin them for him by optimising one too well. :smallsmile:


With Quick Draw and EWP (Gnome Quickrazor) you can make good use of Iaijutsu Focus, which can give you high enough damage to stay relevant through the early-mid levels. Wild Cohort is another great pick, and UMD can get you pretty far.

Why do I need Quick Draw if the Quickrazor draws and retracts as a free action anyway?

[Rubik]

A post from JaronK over on BrilliantGameologists (now MinMaxBoards):


Since Giacomo has now shown that his version of a strong Monk is a turtle who sacs his offensive power for skills and AC (seriously, Wis or Int as the main stat?), I think he can be safely ignored. Moving on, here's an Expert, using the same general rules as Soro's Monk, who might theoretically be played in the same group. Since everyone's been saying Necropolitans should be one level lower, I'll be level 10. Note, this one's a little silly... I can make a level 9 update of my earlier poison/intimidate/iaijutsu guy later. I'm just having fun for the moment. But yeah... VoP Expert! ...in part because I don't want to go over wealth right now, it takes a long time. Also, because I think it's funny to put a VoP Expert in a thread that's about comparing the class to Monks. This guy can hardly be said to be ridiculously optimized, but he's got a few tricks... I figured a Dragonborn Dragonwrought Kobold is roughly equivalent to Soro's race, since I'm not abusing it all that much (even Loredrake ain't much without actual Sorcerer levels).


Charles
Venerable Loredrake Dragonborn Desert Kobold Expert 10
HD: 10d6+30 (61 HP)
Initiative: +2 = +2 (dex)
Speed: 30ft. (Fly 30ft, short duration)
AC: 28 (+2 dex, +3 natural, +9 Exalted, +3 Deflection, +1 Size) Touch: 16, Flat-Footed: 26
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/-7
Attack: +10 = +7 (bab) + 0 (Wis) + 2 (enhancement) + 1 (size)
Attack Options:
Longspear +10/+5 melee (1d6-3, only used on undead or constructs)
Touch (Golden Ice, only used on undead or constructs)
Space/Reach: 5ft./10ft.
Special Attacks: 3rd level Sorcerer Casting (Greater Draconic Rite), +4 Save DCs for Sorcerer Spells that don't deal damage.
Special Qualities: Endure Elements, Sustenance, Mind Shielding, DR 5/magic, Calming Aura (DC 21), manufactured weapons that strike you must make DC 18 save or shatter), Identify 3/day (Draconic Rite of Passage), +1 Luck bonus on one roll per day
Saves: Fort +6, Refl +5, Will +8. (+1 resistance bonus to all included. Also, +1 vs spells and spell like abilities)
Abilities (pb 28):
Str: 4 (-3) = 8 (base) - 4 (racial)
Dex: 14 (+2) = 14 (base)
Con: 16 (+3) = 14 (base) + 2 (racial)
Int: 18 (+4) = 15 (base) + 3 (venerable)
Wis: 11 (+0) = 8 (base) + 3 (venerable)
Cha: 22 (+6) = 15 (base) + 2 (enhancement) + 3 (venerable), +2 (level up)
Feats: DragonwroughtF, Sacred VowF, Vow of Poverty1st, Nymph's KissVOP1, Vow of NonviolenceVOP2, Bind Vestige3rd, Vow of PeaceVOP4, Practiced Binder6th, Intuitive AttackVOP6, Touch of Golden IceVOP8, Draconic Reserve9th, Knight of StarsVOP10.
Skills (all at 13 ranks) : Lucid Dreaming +17, Diplomacy +33 (+35 vs good targets), Bluff +21 (+23 vs good targets), Spot +13, Sense Motive +13, Move Silently +15, Hide +19, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) +17, Autohypnosis +13, Knowledge (Arcana) +17
Equipment A nice walking stick (A Longspear that he mostly just uses for walking), simple robes, and some food and water to give to those in need
Languages: Common, Draconic, Celestial, whatever else fits
Environment: Any
Organization: Any
CR: 10
Treasure: Not much
Alignment: Neutral Good
Advancement: By Class.
Level Adjustment: +0

Charles is a simple dragon, but one who believes that only through peace and understanding can the world be made right. He travels about the land, sometimes with companions, and spreads the word of Bahamut's love and blessings. To deal with conquerers and warlords and other threats, he uses his Lucid Dreaming skill to enter their dreams and preach to them there.

Tactics

Charles lets stealth protect him at first, observing people from a distance before coming in close to talk to them. He then appears and quickly begins talking. Vow of Peace protect him from most attacks, calming enemies so they must listen to him in addition to providing significant AC, and once he begins speaking he quickly converts possible threats. He binds Naberius each day so that he can make Diplomacy checks as a standard action at no penalty. He can also enter a state of dreams and go directly to various people, converting them to his vision of peace in their sleep.

Since he can convert even hostile enemies to friendly on a 2 (a 1 makes them indifferent, a 17+ makes them helpful), he can keep a party safe from harm. When really needed he can get a +1 to ensure one enemy is friendly. Against mindless undead he can deal minor damage but mostly just stays out of the way. Against non hostile folks, he instantly converts them. If he converts an intelligent creature, he may ride that creature around if appropriate. Otherwise, he just brings with him any friends who can help keep him safe while he talks to people.

When not dealing with other creatures, Charles makes good use of stealth and spotting abilities, and can memorize terrain perfectly via Autohypnosis to report back to friends. He can also identify items for people, charging half price (50gp instead of the normal 100gp material component cost) and then donating that 50gp to those who need it. He uses his limited Sorcerer casting... for whatever that would be good for.

And yes, I'm just having fun with this one, showing off the ridiculous power of Diplomacy, Lucid Dreaming, and stealth skills. Having a PC who can hide from almost anything, convert anyone to his side, and even dream his way into the mind of any BBEG to convince them to play nice... yeah, that's pretty brutal. Also, unlike the Monks presented here, Charles is proficient in unarmed strikes :).

JaronK

[AvatarVecna]

In a similar vein, I've been trying to think up a build for Johnny Appleseed all day, and I think VoP Expert going into Apostle of Peace could be interesting and give quick casting. YMMV, though...

[Kevingway]

Find a way to use Profession (Executioner) to your advantage.

[Thurbane]

Iajutsu Focus
Autohypnosis
Use Magic Device
Use Psionic Device
Knowledge (arcana, dungeoneering, local, nature, religion, the planes) to fuel Knowledge Devotion
Lucid Dreaming (very campaign dependant)

You may want to pick up the three Binding feats for non-Binders to help your utility.

Maybe Imperious Command etc. and pump Intimidate?

Diplomancy may be an option, depending on your DM.

[jiriku]

Nightmare carts are unoptimized. Pump your Handle Animal skill, buy an elephant, and get a nightmare howdah.

[frogglesmash]

Why do I need Quick Draw if the Quickrazor draws and retracts as a free action anyway?
I haven't looked at iaijutsu builds in a while, but I think you may need quickdraw to qualify for some stuff that renders opponents flat footed, though there's a very good chance that I'm completely wrong.

[AvatarVecna]

The class Iaijutsu Master (which gives you several powerful upgrades) requires Quick Draw to enter.

[Socksy]

The class Iaijutsu Master (which gives you several powerful upgrades) requires Quick Draw to enter.

If I'm using the quickrazor, I won't be using the katana.
Unless I'm meant to be dual-wielding them?

[AvatarVecna]

If I'm using the quickrazor, I won't be using the katana.
Unless I'm meant to be dual-wielding them?

I think there's a way to treat it as a katana for the purposes of Iaijutsu Focus, but I'm not sure. I've never really tried to build a quickrazor Iaijutsu Focus character.

[paranoidbox]

Nightmare carts are unoptimized. Pump your Handle Animal skill, buy an elephant, and get a nightmare howdah.

Is the nightmare cart a thing? Because I would be mightily interested in the whats and the hows of it :D

[Jormengand]

Because craft alchemy requires you to be a spellcaster (and due to the fact that spell-like abilities count as spells), and you want to have lots of skill bonuses, and you can take any skills you like as class skills, why not take the Lesser Utterance of the Evolving Mind (Universal Aptitude), Lesser Utterance of the Evolving Mind (Whatever - maybe Knight's Puissance if you really want to be in combat?) and Utterance of the Evolving Mind (Hidden Truth) for a nice +5 to all skills which goes up to +15 for knowledges and bluff? Item Familiar is pretty useful for a +6 bonus to whatever the hell skill you want. Also, if you want to take a crafted tool utterance so you can have Analyse Item that's quite fun ("Oh, it's a mysterious item? Hey, DM, tell me everything about this item, even if it's cursed.") but that gets feat-intensive fast.

Of course, you can crack open the BOVD and use your newfound ridiculously-good knowledge check to rule the world, but you know, that's probably not the intention.

But really, everything everyone's proposed is basically an exercise in pretending to be another class, whether it be factotum, sorcerer, cerebremancer, or even a truenamer.

[Ruethgar]

See what your DM says about the interaction between Lucid Dreaming and the Wandering template since your dreams have been made manifest as illusions.

[Socksy]

Lucid Dreaming

Our attitude towards lucid dreaming is pretending it doesn't exist :smallbiggrin:

[Rubik]

Our attitude towards lucid dreaming is pretending it doesn't exist :smallbiggrin:It's only a dream...