Arcane Duelist - Free +BAB to Damage?

[Extra Anchovies]

The Arcane Duelist (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a), for anyone who isn't familiar.

Mostly want to make sure this trick works. Also this can serve as the start of a general Arcane Duelist thread, since it's a pretty interesting class that people probably have something to say about.

So the Arcane Duelist gets an ability called Dexterous Attack. It lets them subtract an amount from their chosen weapon's damage and add that amount to their attack bonus. The two conditions are A) the damage penalty can't exceed BAB and B) the damage penalty can't reduce the weapon's maximum possible damage below 1.

With a two-handed chosen weapon, can you Power Attack at full BAB to get +2*BAB to damage in exchange for -BAB to hit, and then Dexterous Attack at full BAB for -BAB to damage and +BAB to hit? I'm not sure if Power Attack bonus damage counts as part of a weapon's "damage potential", but the ability description includes an example in which an enhancement bonus counts as part of "damage potential", so it seems to like PA bonus damage would be included in the total.

Also, this PrC is weird. They're a poor BAB combat class, and they get an (Ex) enhancement bonus to their weapon.

[erok0809]

I'm not sure of the RAW, but I know that as a DM I wouldn't let you do that, only because of what power attack and dexterous attack represent. Power attack is supposed to be swinging harder to do more damage while sacrificing accuracy, while dexterous attack is the exact opposite, swinging softer to be more accurate while sacrificing damage. I don't believe you could do both of these at once, since they're basically exact opposites fluff-wise. However, by RAW? I'm not sure there's anything stopping you.

[Curmudgeon]

The Arcane Duelist can subtract from the "chosen melee weapon's potential damage". Power Attack's adjustment isn't based on the weapon's potential damage, but rather the wielder's potential damage. Change to a weapon of the same handedness but with a different damage die and you'll alter the weapon's potential damage; you won't alter the wielder's Power Attack options.

[Alent]

With a two-handed chosen weapon, can you Power Attack at full BAB to get +2*BAB to damage in exchange for -BAB to hit, and then Dexterous Attack at full BAB for -BAB to damage and +BAB to hit? I'm not sure if Power Attack bonus damage counts as part of a weapon's "damage potential", but the ability description includes an example in which an enhancement bonus counts as part of "damage potential", so it seems to like PA bonus damage would be included in the total.

At a quick glance, the "Damage potential" example they provide seems to exclude the possibility of strength mod to damage, suggesting to me that it specifically addresses the potential of the weapon itself. That suggests to me that a weapon with 1d6 acid 1d6 fire etc. could subtract 5 for each of those bonus damage types, but not that you could subtract from the user's potential damage (strength mod, power attack, precision damage, dex if you've got it, etc.)

As to if it works or not, I kind of agree with the fluff contradiction and I'd be inclined to say you couldn't double dip. There's no "BAB bonus type" that I'm aware of, but this kind of comes close to making sense as one since they're both drawing from the same resource. At the very least it'd make sense to say you're using half your BAB for one and half your BAB for the other, but I don't think there'd be any rules precedent for either limitation and it'd be a house ruling at best.

That said, I'd say it comes down to your DM and what he sees as reasonable. This doesn't seem like it'd be imbalanced if you've got an ubercharger shocktrooper build sitting next to you at the table, and looks RAWsome.

[Venger]

The Arcane Duelist (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a), for anyone who isn't familiar.

Mostly want to make sure this trick works. Also this can serve as the start of a general Arcane Duelist thread, since it's a pretty interesting class that people probably have something to say about.

So the Arcane Duelist gets an ability called Dexterous Attack. It lets them subtract an amount from their chosen weapon's damage and add that amount to their attack bonus. The two conditions are A) the damage penalty can't exceed BAB and B) the damage penalty can't reduce the weapon's maximum possible damage below 1.

With a two-handed chosen weapon, can you Power Attack at full BAB to get +2*BAB to damage in exchange for -BAB to hit, and then Dexterous Attack at full BAB for -BAB to damage and +BAB to hit? I'm not sure if Power Attack bonus damage counts as part of a weapon's "damage potential", but the ability description includes an example in which an enhancement bonus counts as part of "damage potential", so it seems to like PA bonus damage would be included in the total.

Also, this PrC is weird. They're a poor BAB combat class, and they get an (Ex) enhancement bonus to their weapon.
This class is atrocious.

the trick would work, but Im not sure what the point would be.

since the penalty is capped at [(weapon base damage + enhancement bonus)-1] OR base attack, it means whichever's lower which, with this class wasting 5 points of BA, is problematic to say the least.

the trick absolutely works. let's say you have a greatsword and your BA is 9, you just got the ability. you can take 9 damage off and add it to your to-hit. you can power attack for full and get 18 damage in return, so your net gain is +9 damage.

if you'd just power attacked as normal, you'd be getting +18 damage, so this will put you behind where you'd normally be since power attack doesn't let you double dip. so even if you had a further +9 to your to-hit, you couldn't put it in the grinder to transform it to damage with power attack.

I think your trick is predicated on adding power attack damage before activating dexterous attack, but I don't see anything in the rules about it working that way, or they'd've just said your weapon's actual damage. the face that they went out of their way to say "base + enhancement," cutting out even your str bonus means it probably wouldn't also count power attack damage.

this class is a mess. I'm not really sure what the point of it was supposed to be.

[The Viscount]

I was in fact just looking at this trick today. Note that since they don't mention str bonus as potential damage, PA almost certainly won't count either

If you enter with a full BA class and take all 10 levels, then exit with 5 full BA levels, trick is to buy a greatsword and subtract 15 damage (11 from greatsword, 4 from +4) first, then PA for -15 from attack, adding 30 on to damage for net -0 attack, +15 damage.

Then again you only need 3 levels of this class to use the ability and it offers next to nothing to say, so lets have fun with it. With the right choices we can theoretically cram in 10 levels of Frenzied Berserker, meaning +4 to damage with two hander for every -1 to attack. If we use a large greatsword through strongarm bracers and make it +5 we'll have enough and to spare to take a -19 on damage for the same on attack, then reroute it through PA for a net -0 to attack, +57 to damage.

All this being said, it's most common to just use shock trooper to toss it onto AC instead.

The class itself confuses me. The simplest entry seems Hexblade, but I don't understand why any spellcasting is required in the first place. Also as read you have to actually buy weapon proficiency with the feat, which is utter nonsense.

The capstone is cute, but it irritates me that they say 1d4+1 per three levels when you gain it at tenth level, so you know the answer is 1d4+3. The ability itself does so little. This class wants to be full BA so bad I didn't even notice the first read through.

[Venger]

I was in fact just looking at this trick today. Note that since they don't mention str bonus as potential damage, PA almost certainly won't count either

If you enter with a full BA class and take all 10 levels, then exit with 5 full BA levels, trick is to buy a greatsword and subtract 15 damage (11 from greatsword, 4 from +4) first, then PA for -15 from attack, adding 30 on to damage for net -0 attack, +15 damage.

Then again you only need 3 levels of this class to use the ability and it offers next to nothing to say, so lets have fun with it. With the right choices we can theoretically cram in 10 levels of Frenzied Berserker, meaning +4 to damage with two hander for every -1 to attack. If we use a large greatsword through strongarm bracers and make it +5 we'll have enough and to spare to take a -19 on damage for the same on attack, then reroute it through PA for a net -0 to attack, +57 to damage.

All this being said, it's most common to just use shock trooper to toss it onto AC instead.

there is never a reason not to shock trooper when you have power attack.

if you were doing some kind of karmic strike type thing, maybe, but in that case you're probably focusing on aoos and not ubercharging.

[Curmudgeon]

there is never a reason not to shock trooper when you have power attack.
Of course there is. Charging is foiled by any difficult terrain, like muddy ground, protruding roots, or wet grass. Spending a feat so you're actually able to charge is more important than the attack bonus on charge attack rolls you aren't allowed to make.

[Venger]

Of course there is. Charging is foiled by any difficult terrain, like muddy ground, protruding roots, or wet grass. Spending a feat so you're actually able to charge is more important than the attack bonus on charge attack rolls you aren't allowed to make.

Well sure, but by the time most people get around to taking shock trooper, you're able to fly, if not all day then at least in most combats.