Summoning Inquisitor (!) feat progression

[Second Arrow]

Howdy'all!

I'm thinking about playing an Inquisitor that focuses on summoning - to be more specific, the new Monster Tactician (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor/archetypes/paizo---inquisitor-archetypes/monster-tactician-inquisitor-archetype) archetype, that trades out Judgement for the Summon Monster SLA that we all love and loathe, based on wisdom (and it also gives the ability to give TW feats to your summons, which is plain brutal).

In other words, it is a summoner without an eidolon and evolution points, but with a domain, bane, better saving throws, and a ton of free TW feats. Roughly speaking, of course. Since I'm playing a 6/9 caster, focusing purely on casting seems like it won't get me too far, so I was thinking about doing a reach-cleric style melee character, that fishes for attacks of opportunity while summoning or buffing as a standard action - damned if you do, damned if you don't, kind of. However, I'm kind of uncertain about my feat progression, as I would like to be as effective as I can be throughout the levels - in particular because I'm feeling that Augment Summoning is a requirement for being a good monster summoner, yet Spell Focus (Conjuration) affects like two Inquisitor spells with a saving throw (believe me, it is depressing), being a feat tax more than for any other summoning character.

So, playground, what would you suggest for my feat progression / selection? Personally I was contemplating being a human, picking up SF(Conj) and Combat Reflexes at L1, reasoning that at L1 dice rolls matters more than a +2 anyway, getting Augment in time for small earth elementals at L3, and finally Power Attack at L5. However, I can also see that purely focusing on summoning (SF + Aug @ L1, Superior Summoning @ L3, Versatile Summon Monster @ L5 etc) would have a merit. What are your thoughts?

Also, I'm thinking about getting either the Growth or Tactics subdomain, but I'm leaning towards Tactics as it seems like both abilities would be of benefit, whereas with Growth it is only mainly the L1 ability.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

[Geddy2112]

For any summoning build, Augment summoning is required(even with the conjuration tax). Otherwise you probably want superior summons later on to get multiples. You can't get any of the starlit/moonlit/sunlit summons without going into druid, which are your other major buffs for summoning.

[Second Arrow]

Yeah, I figured that I needed to suck up the feat tax :smallsigh:

Would you agree with my (mind, purely theoretical) assumption though, that Augment Summons is not as necessary to get going by first level? As a reach-style character, I'm thinking that Combat Reflexes will be just as useful in helping me survive the first few levels, by providing a secondary layer of defense even if I should happen to lose out in the initiative order.

A bit more information, I'm going for a 20 point buy, and planning on spending it like this:

Strength: 16+2 / Dexterity: 14 / Constitution: 12 (Putting FCB in +HP) / Intelligence: 10 / Wisdom: 14 / Charisma: 8

What do you think of this feat progression?
L1: Combat Reflexes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/combat-reflexes-combat)
L1B: Spell Focus (Conjuration) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spell-focus---final)
L3: Augment Summoning (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/augment-summoning---final)
L5: Power Attack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/power-attack-combat---final)
L7: Superior Summoning (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/superior-summoning)
L9: Versatile Summon Monster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/versatile-summon-monster)? / Improved Initiative (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-initiative-combat---final)?
L11: Divine Interference (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/divine-interference)

Any other thoughts, or have I somehow struck a nerve, asking about a summoning-focused character? :smallconfused:

[Spore]

Any other thoughts, or have I somehow struck a nerve, asking about a summoning-focused character? :smallconfused:

Having teamwork feats interact between summons is a good way to complicate your turn and increase its length. Be sure to check with your DM and players if they are okay with it and most importantly: Try to prepare yourself so that your turns take a minimum amount of time.


Since I'm playing a 6/9 caster, focusing purely on casting seems like it won't get me too far, so I was thinking about doing a reach-cleric style melee character, that fishes for attacks of opportunity while summoning or buffing as a standard action - damned if you do, damned if you don't, kind of.

Well, a summoner is a 6/9 caster and can focus on spells just fine. It's just that they have a spell list better suited for this (you mainly get utility spells and single target buffs on yourself). For your fluff, I prefer the Celestial Commander: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/rite-publishing---summoner-archetypes/celestial-commander although this class is 3rd party and quite overpowered (bordering into T1 as any summoner).

[Second Arrow]

Having teamwork feats interact between summons is a good way to complicate your turn and increase its length. Be sure to check with your DM and players if they are okay with it and most importantly: Try to prepare yourself so that your turns take a minimum amount of time.

I'll definitely prepare. I had a plan of printing out summon cards, looking up my options, and not stop the game by going "hang on, I just need to look this up for 10 minutes.." to find the most optimal summon in any given situation. That, and in my experience I tend to be the character that takes the /least/ time of all the other players in the current campaign I'm playing, so I'm not too worried about time hassle - but I completely get what you are saying. :smallwink:



Well, a summoner is a 6/9 caster and can focus on spells just fine. It's just that they have a spell list better suited for this (you mainly get utility spells and single target buffs on yourself). For your fluff, I prefer the Celestial Commander: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/rite-publishing---summoner-archetypes/celestial-commander although this class is 3rd party and quite overpowered (bordering into T1 as any summoner).

3rd party is off the table. Thanks for the suggestion, though! I also really like the selfish Inquisitor spell list, as its lack of control spells etc makes me less of a one-man party (though I realise that summoning by nature can make me punch above my weight class). That archetype seems comparatively ridiculous, even though it certainly has some eerie similarities with the Monster Tactician.

[Spore]

I'll definitely prepare. I had a plan of printing out summon cards, looking up my options, and not stop the game by going "hang on, I just need to look this up for 10 minutes.." to find the most optimal summon in any given situation. That, and in my experience I tend to be the character that takes the /least/ time of all the other players in the current campaign I'm playing, so I'm not too worried about time hassle - but I completely get what you are saying. :smallwink:

That's good. Another point you should get is that your summons feel "cheap" for other players as it feels like NPCs are stealing the thunder. But I will address this problem in my third paragraph.



3rd party is off the table. Thanks for the suggestion, though! I also really like the selfish Inquisitor spell list, as its lack of control spells etc makes me less of a one-man party (though I realise that summoning by nature can make me punch above my weight class). That archetype seems comparatively ridiculous, even though it certainly has some eerie similarities with the Monster Tactician.

To be honest I thought you meant Celestial Commander at first glance (because I didn't know if that it was an Summoner archetype anymore). But then we should look through the strengths of Inquisitors and maybe pronounce those.

You are a skill monkey and a "striker" as 4e would call it. But you just traded in your primarily damage abilities (besides Bane) in order to summon. You are still a decent front row character after a few buffs. But here's how I would build such a character. You have three areas of expertise.

1) Summoning: This is pretty powerful but can also be shut down by specific spells and archetypes (and a good DM will challenge the advantages and disadvantages of heroes the more they become famous).

2) Damage dealing: As you traded away your Judgment you fall short on damage, precision and you can't use the formidable spell "Lend Judgment". But going Power Attack needs you to bolster your attack bonus. You'll need Outflank (with your summons of course) for a +4, then cast Divine Favor and you are at a point where you can hit reliably.

3) Skill Monkeying: This point pretty much resolves itself. You don't have a skillmonkey eidolon so you do the dirty work yourself. You CAN use feats for skill foci or dip other classes but this takes away from your overall strengths.

So you need to divide up your feats into damage/hitting and summoning. I mark my changes in red:


L1: Combat Reflexes
L1B: Spell Focus (Conjuration)
L3: Augment Summoning
L5: Power Attack
L7: Superior Summoning Take Furious Focus
L9: Versatile Summon Monster? / Improved Initiative? Take Superior Summoning here. 3rd level monsters are far mor resilient and better than 2nd level summons.
L11: Divine Interference Never tested this. Rerolls feel powerful but I am not sure if this is worth one of your few spell/day.



Strength: 16+2 / Dexterity: 14 / Constitution: 12 (Putting FCB in +HP) / Intelligence: 10 / Wisdom: 14 / Charisma: 8

This looks good but I prefer FCP from humans into extra spells rather than extra HP. 1-3 extra HP (because extra cantrips is terrible) and 4-20 extra spells. Although the spell list is nothing to write home about you can weave in HP here and there if you lack decent options.

[Geddy2112]

This looks good but I prefer FCP from humans into extra spells rather than extra HP. 1-3 extra HP (because extra cantrips is terrible) and 4-20 extra spells. Although the spell list is nothing to write home about you can weave in HP here and there if you lack decent options.
QFT

I agree that you don't need augment summoning right off the bat(it is not much of a boon early on anyways) and getting it by level 3 is more than sufficient. As far as your domain question, growth is nice if you want to play shenanigans with reach weapons and combat reflexes, but tactics is amazing(and it will help your teammates go before your monsters appear and steal their thunder:smallsmile:) and having the ability to get floating combat feats is fantastic, where as the plant spiked armor is meh at best. Go war/tactics.

[Second Arrow]

1) Summoning - in other words, have contingencies ready when summoning won't work, gotcha. I figured that by going with the Tactics subdomain I'd be pretty decent at initiative rolls (having a +6 to initiative at L2 and rolling twice should hopefully help ensure I'm at the upper end of the initiative order, and combat reflexes provides a bit of a failsafe should everything crash and burn). However, would not superior summons prove useful at L7 as you mentioned as it then gives the option of summoning 1d3+1 lantern archons, for instance?

2) As you noted, I was hoping to deal with the missing attack boni from Judgement by summoning creatures in flanking positions, especially since it is useable more times /day than Judgement will ever be. Also, since I'm not getting Power Attack until L5, I was hoping that Bane would put me on par with a full BAB character when I really need it.

Also, since I'm getting the Tactics subdomain, I'm also getting the "Weapon Master" ability at L8, which lets me grab a combat feat as a swift action. Would there be a point in just using that when I feel like I need Furious Focus? I was originally planning on using it to get Lunge for the increased reach, but hitting is important after all. Versatile Summon Monster was at L9 because of the imagery of pouncing aerial lions :smallbiggrin:

3) I'm thinking that an Inquisitor would be able to deal with skills, with 7 SP / level. And yeah, I'm pretty certain that dipping would be one of the worst things I could do with this character, so I'm firmly set on being single-class. And yeah, first 3 levels +HP, then extra spells sounds good!

[Spore]

Your arguments are valid and your build seems great. Do you need more ideas past L11 or do you think the campaign/character won't last that long? Because Pathfinder becomes rocket tag after a certain point making it quite dangerous for you to go into melee after a certain point without superior defenses (high saves, a method of flight, enough HP to resist a train colliding with you for 2-3 turns and "some" immunities).

[Deadkitten]

You could also consider tying to grab amplified rage as a teamwork feat and summon LOADS of angry weasels.

[Second Arrow]

Feat and spell suggestions past the first levels would be greatly appreciated, thank you! We're starting at L1, so I'm focused on the early levels, but having a plan would be something I would prefer. I'm thinking of potentially quicken spell at L13, but I'm not quite sure, and after that I have no idea which feats to pick.

I was already thinking of picking up Divine Favor and Heightened Awareness as my first L1 spells. After that, I'm considering Expeditious Retreat, but I'm unsure of what other spells might be useful..

Second level, though, is full of goodies. My first picks will likely be Blistering Invective and Tactical Acumen, but also Invisibility (since summon SLA's shouldn't break it) and Silence seem like they would be of great use. Third level will probably just be filled with the -not-exciting-but-useful- Magic Vestment & Greater Magic Weapon.

As far as I've understood, Inquisitors are one of the classes with no ready access to flight whatsoever. I'm hoping to mitigate that by having my summons do the dirty airborne work (especially by giving them the aerial template w/ Versatile Summon Monster), but do you have any suggestions for how to successfully be able to survive most encounters?

I hoped that a combination of ok AC (I'm aiming for at least 15+character level, but hopefully I'll be able to reach 20+char level), good saves (at least good will & fortitude) + stalwart, and not being as close to the fray all the time (reach + summoning) would help me be one of the more survivable PC's. Of course, a starting CON of 12 isn't exactly the epitome of high HP..

[Spore]

Feat and spell suggestions past the first levels would be greatly appreciated, thank you! We're starting at L1, so I'm focused on the early levels, but having a plan would be something I would prefer. I'm thinking of potentially quicken spell at L13, but I'm not quite sure, and after that I have no idea which feats to pick.

I don't find quicken spell very appealing on a character who barely reaches 4th level spells on 10th level. It's just too damn expensive. You can't throw out one of your 5th level spells for a quickened divine favor.


I was already thinking of picking up Divine Favor and Heightened Awareness as my first L1 spells. After that, I'm considering Expeditious Retreat, but I'm unsure of what other spells might be useful..

1: Comprehend Languages, Know the Enemy (combine with Knowledge: Local to perfectly identify famous antagonists who escape), Weapons against Evil (DR destroys your minionmancy on a fundamental level), Wrath (stacks with Divine Favor)


Second level, though, is full of goodies. My first picks will likely be Blistering Invective and Tactical Acumen, but also Invisibility (since summon SLA's shouldn't break it) and Silence seem like they would be of great use.

Calm Emotions (deescalate a violent encounter, appease your enemies until your friends are in position), Protection from Evil, Communal, Resist Energy, See Invisibility, Shield Other, Silence, Tongues, Lesser Restoration. So much good stuff.


Third level will probably just be filled with the -not-exciting-but-useful- Magic Vestment & Greater Magic Weapon.

Please don't. Daylight is great (if your DM enforces lighting rules), Dispel Magic, Dimensional Anchor, Prayer or Speak with Dead increase your options rather than straightout saving you money.


As far as I've understood, Inquisitors are one of the classes with no ready access to flight whatsoever. I'm hoping to mitigate that by having my summons do the dirty airborne work (especially by giving them the aerial template w/ Versatile Summon Monster), but do you have any suggestions for how to successfully be able to survive most encounters?

Looks like it. Carry a light ranged weapon with high fire rate (a shortbow is enough honestly). With your dex, your buffs and the bane ability you still hit and do a good chunk of damage. This could easily be promoted to your main way of attacking if you drop the melee feats.


I hoped that a combination of ok AC (I'm aiming for at least 15+character level, but hopefully I'll be able to reach 20+char level), good saves (at least good will & fortitude) + stalwart, and not being as close to the fray all the time (reach + summoning) would help me be one of the more survivable PC's. Of course, a starting CON of 12 isn't exactly the epitome of high HP..

This mostly depends on your party. I've seen a TWFing Con 10 Ranger do exceptionally well in a group with a Paladin, a Magus, a Bow Fighter/Arcane Archer with HIGHER Con and an Evangelist Cleric. And I have seen a Con 16 Rogue get his head bashed in in a group with an Barbarian and a Paladin.

[Second Arrow]

I don't find quicken spell very appealing on a character who barely reaches 4th level spells on 10th level. It's just too damn expensive. You can't throw out one of your 5th level spells for a quickened divine favor.

Good point. That, and I presume that by 13th level I'd have plenty of things to do with my swift/immediate actions, included but not limited to Bane, Weapon Master, Divine Interference, and at L14, Coordinated Charge... the swift/immediate actions will be taken.

The question about feat selection in the upper levels still stands. I was tempted to just take Extra Summons, but it has a prereq of being a 1st level Summoner, which obviously doesn't work. Hurtful & Cornugon Smash seem useful, but still choke at the swift-action gate.. any tips?



1: Comprehend Languages, Know the Enemy (combine with Knowledge: Local to perfectly identify famous antagonists who escape), Weapons against Evil (DR destroys your minionmancy on a fundamental level), Wrath (stacks with Divine Favor)
Calm Emotions (deescalate a violent encounter, appease your enemies until your friends are in position), Protection from Evil, Communal, Resist Energy, See Invisibility, Shield Other, Silence, Tongues, Lesser Restoration. So much good stuff.
Please don't. Daylight is great (if your DM enforces lighting rules), Dispel Magic, Dimensional Anchor, Prayer or Speak with Dead increase your options rather than straightout saving you money.

Thank you! I'll definitely look into this - especially minionmancy boosting spells. I'll also have to check for summoned creatures with spell-like abilities or spells, at least I'm of the impression that Magic Circle against Evil is a pretty common one.



Looks like it. Carry a light ranged weapon with high fire rate (a shortbow is enough honestly). With your dex, your buffs and the bane ability you still hit and do a good chunk of damage. This could easily be promoted to your main way of attacking if you drop the melee feats.

Inquisitor weapon proficiencies all the way! With how feat intensive archery looks like it is going to be if I want to be /good/ at it, I'd probably only carry one for back-up though. Right now I'm starting out with a modest sling, but when I get the cash, I presume a composite longbow will be in order.

'nother question, point buy arrays - is there a point in dropping Cha down to 7, to boost Wis to 15 and put the +1 into Wis at L4? Like, I don't think I'll ever have a use for Charisma other than intimidating (not playing the party-face here!), and I'm counting on Stern Gaze, MW tools & skill ranks to carry me through that hurdle.

Hell, might as well link the character sheet while I'm at this.

Chao Felicyta, 1st level Inquisitor (Monster Tactician) (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=263856)

[Spore]

'nother question, point buy arrays - is there a point in dropping Cha down to 7, to boost Wis to 15 and put the +1 into Wis at L4? Like, I don't think I'll ever have a use for Charisma other than intimidating (not playing the party-face here!), and I'm counting on Stern Gaze, MW tools & skill ranks to carry me through that hurdle.

While I can personally live with poor Charisma (I play a Cha 6 Investigator aka unempathetical scientist) I am not sure if it fits your fluff very well. Also while Str 16+2 might be great in melee combat it feels like of through the roof. You are a very versatile character so you should have a versatile stat array rather than a narrow Strength focussed build imho.

I feel Str 15/Dex 14/Con 14/Int 10/Wis 14+2/Cha 8 is not as optimized but offers better saves, more HP and more summons. It improves your overall performance while securing your survival. It's +1 Ref, +1 Fort, +1 Will, +1 summon/day and +1 HP/level compared to your old build and it costs you -2 on attack and damage (which becomes even better on 4th level).

[Second Arrow]

Good points. After thinking it over for quite a while, I've decided to do a mix, I'm pretty settled for 15+2 / 14 / 14 / 10 / 14 / 8, with L4 going +1 Strength, the rest of the stat bumps going to Wis.

That leaves me with a damage progression of 1d8+4 for the first two levels, 1d8+4 (+1d6) at L3 with Precise Strike, 1d8+6(+1d6) at L4, and finally 1d8+9(+1d6) / 1d8+11(+3d6) (Bane) at L5. Should be sufficient, especially with the potential of summoning small earth elementals starting at L3.

Thanks for all your help so far! This is for Rise of the Runelords, by the way, any suggestions on feats that might be useful in the high levels?