Godsmoot theory

[Sharkz00ka]

Hello everyone, long time lurker, 1st time posting. Reading all the opinions about the godsmoot i came up with a theory. We have been shown the secrecy around this meeting by the western gods. What if this godsmoot is being used to warn all the high priests about the new baddie in town? Maybe thor asked for an emergency meeting. Hpoh showing there would ruin the plan to prepare a task force to terminate him

[Roland Itiative]

The way the mercenary talks about the Godsmoot in comic 992 implies that it's something that happens at somewhat regular intervals, not just something the high priests and gods decided to do in response to the events in the comic.

Also, the fact that the favored soul that's travelling with them is a servant of an elven goddess shows that the godsmoot is not something that relates only to the northern pantheon, but to all deities, even those that weren't part of the creation of the world.

[Steveio]

The way the mercenary talks about the Godsmoot in comic 992 implies that it's something that happens at somewhat regular intervals, not just something the high priests and gods decided to do in response to the events in the comic.

Godsmoot is a regular event, but the Northern Pantheon apparently called theirs with only three days' notice, according to Veldrina (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0987.html)

[Ron Miel]

The way the mercenary talks about the Godsmoot in comic 992 implies that it's something that happens at somewhat regular intervals ...


I'm getting the impression that it's more of an Extraordinary general meeting (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_general_meeting), called only occasionally, at short notice, and in emergency.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I'm getting the impression that it's more of an Extraordinary general meeting (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_general_meeting), called only occasionally, at short notice, and in emergency.

This is what I'm assuming as well.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I'm jumping on the me too train.

Aside from that, I'm now wondering about to what extend this moot is for priests and clerics. I mean, it is called a godsmoot, will we "see" a lot of them there?

[Arin]

The reason for the emergency godsmoot seems pretty obvious to me - there's only one gate left.

The gods are officially in "OH !@$*" territory.

[Psyren]

The reason for the emergency godsmoot seems pretty obvious to me - there's only one gate left.

The gods are officially in "OH !@$*" territory.

While I agree this is the likely cause given the timing, that doesn't explain one key question - namely, why Hel is in such a rush to get a representative there. What is she planning, and why does it need to be done so urgently that it risks tipping her only capable servant's hand?

[littlebum2002]

The way the mercenary talks about the Godsmoot in comic 992 implies that it's something that happens at somewhat regular intervals, not just something the high priests and gods decided to do in response to the events in the comic.

Also, the fact that the favored soul that's travelling with them is a servant of an elven goddess shows that the godsmoot is not something that relates only to the northern pantheon, but to all deities, even those that weren't part of the creation of the world.


Godsmoot is a regular event, but the Northern Pantheon apparently called theirs with only three days' notice, according to Veldrina (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0987.html)

Nowhere is it ever stated or even implied that the godsmoot occurs at regular intervals. All that is stated is that it has happened before in the past.
On earth, we have had earthquakes in the past, but that does not mean earthquakes happen at regular intervals.



So yes, it is entirely possible that the godsmoot is a regular thing, but given the fact that we know:

-it was convened at the last second
-Veldrina seemed surprised not by the fact that the godsmoot was convened at a random time instead of its prearranged time, but because it was convened on short notice

it seems more likely that the godsmoot is an event which is convened at irregular intervals, probably in response to some crisis which the gods' representatives must address.



In this situation, I think the most likely candidates for this crisis are the destruction of the second to last gate or the creation of the first High Priest of Hel. Given the fact that there are plenty of Evil gods with High Priests, and given certain commentary that Rich made in BRitF on the destruction of the second to last gate, I believe the former is more likely.

[Psyren]

Nowhere is it ever stated or even implied that the godsmoot occurs at regular intervals. All that is stated is that it has happened before in the past.
On earth, we have had earthquakes in the past, but that does not mean earthquakes happen at regular intervals.

The fact that she refers to it as "the Godsmoot" suggests that it is in fact regular, or at least a momentous occasion. We don't go around saying "the earthquake" when referring to any one that happened in the past, because earthquakes are not particularly special.

[rodneyAnonymous]

You might use that article when talking about a volcano. The Mt. St. Helens eruption, for example.

[littlebum2002]

The fact that she refers to it as "the Godsmoot" suggests that it is in fact regular, or at least a momentous occasion. We don't go around saying "the earthquake" when referring to any one that happened in the past, because earthquakes are not particularly special.

You are lumping two completely different things together. "Regular" is pretty much the exact opposite of "momentous". Either it is something that regularly happens every so often, or it's something that only happens only once in a blue moon when a world threatening event comes up.

Obviously, we don't yet know which it is, but seeing how well regulated this event is one would think that if it were a "regular" event people would know when it is going to occur years in advance, not 3 days. (Take the olympics for example, or presidential elections, or anything else that occurs regularly).

On the other hand, if it were a "momentous" event then it would be called whenever something huge is happening in the world (which in a fantasy setting probably means every few years or so) and would likely be called on short notice.

OR it could be a regular event but the date was moved up due to some world threatening event.

So yes, all the evidence points to the moot either being a "regular" event (whose date is, at least in this one instance, unknown until 3 days before, implying that something has gone wrong) OR that it is a "momentous" event which is convened whenever something disastrous is happening that needs to be discussed. However, we can't yet narrow it down from there.

[Psyren]

You are lumping two completely different things together. "Regular" is pretty much the exact opposite of "momentous". Either it is something that regularly happens every so often, or it's something that only happens only once in a blue moon when a world threatening event comes up.

"Arranged in or constituting a constant or definite pattern, especially with the same space between individual instances."

"Something of cosmic importance happened, therefore we're calling a godsmoot" is a defined pattern. It may be a somewhat haphazard one in terms of intervals between, but the correlation can still be there between trigger and moot.

Note that the "same space between individual instances" part is not a requirement, as evidenced by the "especially."

[rodneyAnonymous]

This has gotten super hair-splitty, but I don't think "A therefore B" is a pattern, even if technically that's true.

[Ron Miel]

You are lumping two completely different things together. "Regular" is pretty much the exact opposite of "momentous". Either it is something that regularly happens every so often, or it's something that only happens only once in a blue moon when a world threatening event comes up.

People in this thread are using two different meanings of "regular."

There is a formal meaning "recurring at fixed times; periodic: " By this definition, appearances of Haley's Comet are both regular AND momentous.

People are also using an informal meaning: "happens frequently." I'm not going to go all Nero Wolfe and declare that this is a wrong definition, I'll just point out that that the definition isn't formally recognised by any dictionary I've checked.

As for the Godsmoot, we know two things.
1) They happen fairly frequently. Wrecan has been to "a few" so they can't be more than 2 or 3 years apart, on average. At least, the last few.

2) They do not happen on a fixed interval.

Arguing about whether it's "regular" or not is really down to which definition you pick.

[Psyren]

This has gotten super hair-splitty, but I don't think "A therefore B" is a pattern, even if technically that's true.

If B always happens after A, that's a pattern, no matter how rarely A happens.

[Domino Quartz]

People are also using an informal meaning: "happens frequently." I'm not going to go all Nero Wolfe and declare that this is a wrong definition, I'll just point out that that the definition isn't formally recognised by any dictionary I've checked.


They're probably thinking of this definition:

7. Happening at constant (especially short) intervals. [from 17th c.]
Emphasis mine.

[Ron Miel]

Yes, but the intervals AREN'T constant, that's the point.

[Armitage]

Yes, but the intervals AREN'T constant, that's the point.
We don't really know that.
We can assume that this Godsmoot was called on short notice. But that doesn't tell us if all Godsmoot are assembled ad hoc or if they usually are on fixed dates or in fixed intervals or not.

Actually, the fact that Veldrina is surprised that this Godsmoot was announced only three days in advance suggests that this one is different from the other ones.
So it could be that the Godsmoot is usually held at constant intervals and just this one time they called it earlier due to special circumstances.

[littlebum2002]

"Arranged in or constituting a constant or definite pattern, especially with the same space between individual instances."

"Something of cosmic importance happened, therefore we're calling a godsmoot" is a defined pattern. It may be a somewhat haphazard one in terms of intervals between, but the correlation can still be there between trigger and moot.

Note that the "same space between individual instances" part is not a requirement, as evidenced by the "especially."


People in this thread are using two different meanings of "regular."

There is a formal meaning "recurring at fixed times; periodic: " By this definition, appearances of Haley's Comet are both regular AND momentous.

People are also using an informal meaning: "happens frequently." I'm not going to go all Nero Wolfe and declare that this is a wrong definition, I'll just point out that that the definition isn't formally recognised by any dictionary I've checked.

As for the Godsmoot, we know two things.
1) They happen fairly frequently. Wrecan has been to "a few" so they can't be more than 2 or 3 years apart, on average. At least, the last few.

2) They do not happen on a fixed interval.

Arguing about whether it's "regular" or not is really down to which definition you pick.

Thanks guys, yes, I thought by "regular" you mean "periodic". Objection withdrawn.

[orrion]

While I agree this is the likely cause given the timing, that doesn't explain one key question - namely, why Hel is in such a rush to get a representative there. What is she planning, and why does it need to be done so urgently that it risks tipping her only capable servant's hand?

Well, if you'll remember a conversation in Durkon's head, the HPoH complained that every time Hel bestowed power on an undead they were usually killed by adventurers. She's now got a high level cleric capable of turning the clerics at the godsmoot into her high level clerics. Part of this is probably a recruitment venture. She can bolster her own ranks while depriving other gods of theirs.

Alternatively, she could just want the HPoH kill as many as possible so she's the only one with a representative at the last Gate, assuming she has plans for it. But I'm not sure how the HPoH would get there and win without Roy and co., and killing clerics isn't going to endear Roy's help.

Of course, if I were the clerics at the godsmoot, I'd mass nuke the HPoH as soon as he set foot inside the building. I doubt that happens, though, because that would be sort of a let down to the storyline.

[Xihirli]

But I also don't think that Rich would do something as boring as "the villain steps onto neutral territory and no one can kill him now" that's been beaten to death twice. I anticipate Durkula teaming up with some of the clerics for the other evil gods. Maybe Nergal.

[littlebum2002]

Well, if you'll remember a conversation in Durkon's head, the HPoH complained that every time Hel bestowed power on an undead they were usually killed by adventurers. She's now got a high level cleric capable of turning the clerics at the godsmoot into her high level clerics. Part of this is probably a recruitment venture. She can bolster her own ranks while depriving other gods of theirs.

Alternatively, she could just want the HPoH kill as many as possible so she's the only one with a representative at the last Gate, assuming she has plans for it. But I'm not sure how the HPoH would get there and win without Roy and co., and killing clerics isn't going to endear Roy's help.

Of course, if I were the clerics at the godsmoot, I'd mass nuke the HPoH as soon as he set foot inside the building. I doubt that happens, though, because that would be sort of a let down to the storyline.

First, I doubt Durkula would even be able to vamp one cleric before getting dusted.

Second, if you kill a high priest of a god, another priest will just take over, so that seems pretty pointless as well.

[orrion]

First, I doubt Durkula would even be able to vamp one cleric before getting dusted.

Second, if you kill a high priest of a god, another priest will just take over, so that seems pretty pointless as well.

Hell, I pointed out that I'd nuke him when he set foot inside.

The priest that takes over wouldn't necessarily be quite as powerful.

[littlebum2002]

Hell, I pointed out that I'd nuke him when he set foot inside.

First, why would they need to, considering they can just wait to find out if he's hostile before attacking him and still all but ensure a victory? Second, considering there are almost certainly going to be other evil High Priests here, there is probably a rule against this type of thing.



The priest that takes over wouldn't necessarily be quite as powerful.

Good point.

[Aasimar]

My guess is that Hel hasn't had a high priest in a long time, but that the laws are written in such a way that if she did have one, he would have the same right to vote as any other high priest and might be able to swing a lot of very delicate voting majority balances.

They probably didn't account for Hel having one, but according to the rules, he probably qualifies as a proper voting member of the group.

And it was his plan to get to the Moot to do something along those lines.

[Father Miles]

How about this pure speculation. Not only is there just one gate left, but it has already been taken over by Redcloak and Xykon. After all, it has been a while since they proceeded on. The Godsmoot could be in response to threats or demands from the Dark One. We might see a retrospective on Team Evil's actions since they were last seen. Of course, this depends on them having overlooked something or failed to understand the true nature of the gates, I am not suggesting the "bad guys win, surprise" is a logical story outcome.

[Ron Miel]

Xykon may have taken the gate, but the ritual takes several weeks* to complete. The Dark One isn't in a position to make threats or demands ...yet.


* see panel 7 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html)

[Jay R]

Has anybody yet considered the idea that the Godsmoot was called because the high priest of Odin got word that an earlier prophecy about Death and Destruction was about to come true?

[LuisDantas]

Has anybody yet considered the idea that the Godsmoot was called because the high priest of Odin got word that an earlier prophecy about Death and Destruction was about to come true?

Sort of. I do believe the rise of the HPoH may be the cause of the moot.

[Gusion]

Well, if you'll remember a conversation in Durkon's head, the HPoH complained that every time Hel bestowed power on an undead they were usually killed by adventurers. She's now got a high level cleric capable of turning the clerics at the godsmoot into her high level clerics. Part of this is probably a recruitment venture. She can bolster her own ranks while depriving other gods of theirs.

Alternatively, she could just want the HPoH kill as many as possible so she's the only one with a representative at the last Gate, assuming she has plans for it. But I'm not sure how the HPoH would get there and win without Roy and co., and killing clerics isn't going to endear Roy's help.

Of course, if I were the clerics at the godsmoot, I'd mass nuke the HPoH as soon as he set foot inside the building. I doubt that happens, though, because that would be sort of a let down to the storyline.

That'd be a bad idea...

But I sure would start buffing myself as soon as I saw him. Aid, Magic Circle against Evil (for the extra duration; unless I was evil myself of course), Death Ward, Bear's Endurance, and Owl's Wisdom would be on the list. I'd feel a lot more comfortable about the next 14 minutes. I'd also be wondering if "Undeath to Death" would be powerful enough to kill him and being annoyed I didn't learn it this morning but instead picked Word of Recall. But then I'd reflect on the number of evil clerics in the room and decide Word of Recall wasn't actually a bad choice after all.

[FollowerofBanjo]

OK, who else thinks it would be super awesome if both Hilgya, (remember her?) and the orc followers of Banjo from http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0557.html showed up at the Godsmoot anyone else or just me?

[Ron Miel]

Has anybody yet considered the idea that the Godsmoot was called because the high priest of Odin got word that an earlier prophecy about Death and Destruction was about to come true?

no, the current high priest doesn't know about the prophecy.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html

[Jay R]

no, the current high priest doesn't know about the prophecy.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html

Yes, I know. That's why I specified him getting word about an earlier prophecy.

What Odin gave once, Odin can give again. IT would not be impossible for the new priest to get a prophecy saying, "Durkon is now bringing Death and Destruction, just as I announced before."

[Quild]

Sort of. I do believe the rise of the HPoH may be the cause of the moot.

Unlikely. Gontor is surprised that Hel sent someone. Hel seems clearly informed of the Godsmoot, so if the subject was HPoH, having her sending someone wouldn't be a suprise.

According to this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361715-Countdown-to-Belkar-s-Death-Scene&p=17767182#post17767182), Godsmoot is 5 days after the gate destruction. And clerics were thus noticed 2 days after the gate destruction. Considering the gods may have discussed the subject themselves before deciding the Godsmoot, gates may be the subject here.

[Mad Humanist]

According to this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361715-Countdown-to-Belkar-s-Death-Scene&p=17767182#post17767182), Godsmoot is 5 days after the gate destruction. And clerics were thus noticed 2 days after the gate destruction. Considering the gods may have discussed the subject themselves before deciding the Godsmoot, gates may be the subject here.


Come come. Given how long it takes for committees to reach decisions we can guess that the Gods called the Godsmoot to discuss the destruction of the first gate.

[littlebum2002]

Considering Gontor's words to Durkon in the last panel, I find it hard to believe that this moot is about him.

It seems to me that if you have a meeting about this potentially problematic high priest who just arose, and invited a dozen or so other priests just to deal with this one creature, and that creature then shows up at the front door of your meeting, you wouldn't greet him with a friendly "hey, welcome, I didn't know you were coming!"

[Psyren]

Unlikely. Gontor is surprised that Hel sent someone. Hel seems clearly informed of the Godsmoot, so if the subject was HPoH, having her sending someone wouldn't be a suprise.

According to this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361715-Countdown-to-Belkar-s-Death-Scene&p=17767182#post17767182), Godsmoot is 5 days after the gate destruction. And clerics were thus noticed 2 days after the gate destruction. Considering the gods may have discussed the subject themselves before deciding the Godsmoot, gates may be the subject here.


Considering Gontor's words to Durkon in the last panel, I find it hard to believe that this moot is about him.

It seems to me that if you have a meeting about this potentially problematic high priest who just arose, and invited a dozen or so other priests just to deal with this one creature, and that creature then shows up at the front door of your meeting, you wouldn't greet him with a friendly "hey, welcome, I didn't know you were coming!"

Agreed - the most likely subject of the moot is the gates, or more specifically The Gate since there's only one left. The gods are most likely in full-on panic-mode at this point. Worse, they can't fix it themselves, because that would either involve unmaking the existing world or bickering so much that they end up with a second snarl (or strengthen the existing one even further), if not both outcomes at once (unmaking the world, then bickering so much while they create World 3 that they all end up slaughtered.)

Meanwhile, at least two of the evil gods are taking advantage of the discord to try and improve their standing - and being the underdogs, they have little to lose if things go south.

Note that none of the above addresses one very obvious question - what is that second planet within the rift, do the gods know about it, and how can anything coexist along with the Snarl to begin with?

Actually, quick prediction along those lines:

Perhaps the Snarl doesn't actually destroy souls, it locks them away - so Kraagor and Mi-Jung could be be trapped on that planet within the rift, thus explaining Soon's inability to raise her. The battle with Xykon will likely involve heading through the rift - when it does, the Order will run into one or both of the former, who will help them understand what they need to do to save both worlds. (Mi-Jung in particular seems to be a bookish sort, so she'd likely be useful as an Exposition Fairy here.)

As for the Eastern Gods, they may or may not still exist - after all, the Snarl is supposedly more lethal to deities, so it's possible to explain how they are truly gone even if Mi-Jung survived.

[SirKazum]

Agreed - the most likely subject of the moot is the gates, or more specifically The Gate since there's only one left. The gods are most likely in full-on panic-mode at this point. Worse, they can't fix it themselves, because that would either involve unmaking the existing world or bickering so much that they end up with a second snarl (or strengthen the existing one even further), if not both outcomes at once (unmaking the world, then bickering so much while they create World 3 that they all end up slaughtered.)

Meanwhile, at least two of the evil gods are taking advantage of the discord to try and improve their standing - and being the underdogs, they have little to lose if things go south.

Note that none of the above addresses one very obvious question - what is that second planet within the rift, do the gods know about it, and how can anything coexist along with the Snarl to begin with?

Actually, quick prediction along those lines:

Perhaps the Snarl doesn't actually destroy souls, it locks them away - so Kraagor and Mi-Jung could be be trapped on that planet within the rift, thus explaining Soon's inability to raise her. The battle with Xykon will likely involve heading through the rift - when it does, the Order will run into one or both of the former, who will help them understand what they need to do to save both worlds. (Mi-Jung in particular seems to be a bookish sort, so she'd likely be useful as an Exposition Fairy here.)

As for the Eastern Gods, they may or may not still exist - after all, the Snarl is supposedly more lethal to deities, so it's possible to explain how they are truly gone even if Mi-Jung survived.

Wouldn't Mi-Jung be something like 200 years old now though? She's of a comparable age to Soon Kim, who was Shojo's grandfather. Unless the souls trapped by the Snarl are immortal, as the departed souls that dwell in the Outer Planes after death.

[ti'esar]

Wouldn't Mi-Jung be something like 200 years old now though? She's of a comparable age to Soon Kim, who was Shojo's grandfather. Unless the souls trapped by the Snarl are immortal, as the departed souls that dwell in the Outer Planes after death.

Soon and Shojo were not related. Soon founded the Sapphire Guard in the time of Shojo's grandfather, but that was only about sixty years ago.

Which is still more than enough time for Mijung to have died of old age - Soon did, after all - so I guess it's a moot point in the end.

[Jay R]

Unlikely. Gontor is surprised that Hel sent someone. Hel seems clearly informed of the Godsmoot, so if the subject was HPoH, having her sending someone wouldn't be a suprise.

You can't assume that they know everything that we know. If the subject is, "There is a High Priest of Hel, returning to bring Death and Destruction to the North," then it wouldn't be a surprise.

But if they have found out that "A previous prophecy about bringing Death and Destruction to the northlands is about to come true," there is no reason for them to connect it to a High Priest of Hel.

Prophecies in OotS-world have been maddeningly uninformative in the past.
"When the goat turns red strike true."
"In his throne room."
"Posthumously."
"By saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons."

Even if it's about the situation caused by a vampire dwarf who is a high priest of Hel, you can't assume that they know the details "vampire", "dwarf", "High Priest", or "Hel".

[Quild]

Funny, I assumed I was free to assume what I wanted to assume. So I can't assume the assumption that they know what we know? How come?

Regardless nitpicking, the prophecy about Durkon was something like "A young priest of Thor named Durkon Thundershield will bring Death & Destruction next time he comes home".

Technically, only his body will be coming back home here, the prophecy is more adequate if Durkon only comes home after having his body back and has Xykon behind him. That kind of things.

But the Death and Destruction thing seems to concerns Dwarven Land, and possibly only Durkon's homeplace. Not sure it concerns gnomeland or elfworld.


So I'm assuming the Godsmoot has nothing to see with HPoH. I may be wrong, I'm still assuming it right now.


Edit: Maybe some prophecies are cryptic because rather than being self-fulfilling, something less cryptic would create a paradox. Imagine that Xykon, Redcloak, MitD and roaches were to teleport a few seconds later than in #899. Or a few yards of these coordinates. Xykon would never have been in a 1000-foot radius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) of Girard's Gate. Oracle would then have had to answer Kraagor's gate, which greatly reduces the chance of the gate being destroyed before Xykon's teleportation and... Makes the prophecy false.
The Oracle sure avoided a big headache here.