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View Full Version : Dragon casting -- I want to help out my DM



rrwoods
2015-07-05, 06:48 PM
Situation: we ended the last session with an old sand dragon attacking us, then nearly dying and fleeing. Some poor tactical decisions by the DM led to the fight being even more one-sided than it should have been. Next session it is (probably) coming back with friends to even it up.

What I've already talked to him about: Better tactics, choose different feats, have minions to even action economy, etc. Some of this he's listening to and some he's stubborn on; regardless, the encounter is going to be different next time.

What I want to know: One of the things he mentioned is that the dragon's spells aren't particularly impressive. Sandstorm lists the caster level as 7th; to be sure, 4th level spells aren't a huge pain for an APL 13 party. But given the way other sessions have played out I strongly suspect he's mistaking the dragon's spell like abilities for its spells. I don't have experience interpreting dragon stat blocks, so: tl;dr -- could someone walk me through determining what the dragon's spell selection is/can be? I want to help my DM run the dragon encounter more fairly.

Jack_Simth
2015-07-05, 06:59 PM
Situation: we ended the last session with an old sand dragon attacking us, then nearly dying and fleeing. Some poor tactical decisions by the DM led to the fight being even more one-sided than it should have been. Next session it is (probably) coming back with friends to even it up.

What I've already talked to him about: Better tactics, choose different feats, have minions to even action economy, etc. Some of this he's listening to and some he's stubborn on; regardless, the encounter is going to be different next time.

What I want to know: One of the things he mentioned is that the dragon's spells aren't particularly impressive. Sandstorm lists the caster level as 7th; to be sure, 4th level spells aren't a huge pain for an APL 13 party. But given the way other sessions have played out I strongly suspect he's mistaking the dragon's spell like abilities for its spells. I don't have experience interpreting dragon stat blocks, so: tl;dr -- could someone walk me through determining what the dragon's spell selection is/can be? I want to help my DM run the dragon encounter more fairly.
3rd level spells. Dragons cast as Sorcerers, not Wizards, in general (although their are exceptions).

Invisibility is a killer, especially if he Silences it, and he's got the skill points to back it up. Picture a fight starting with a dragon full attack power attacking the poor Wizard, because nobody passed the listen check and nobody could make the astronomical Spot check.

And then Mr. Dragon's friends show up to flank, as they were also invisible and in on the ambush.

rrwoods
2015-07-05, 08:27 PM
3rd level spells. Dragons cast as Sorcerers, not Wizards, in general (although their are exceptions).

Invisibility is a killer, especially if he Silences it, and he's got the skill points to back it up. Picture a fight starting with a dragon full attack power attacking the poor Wizard, because nobody passed the listen check and nobody could make the astronomical Spot check.

And then Mr. Dragon's friends show up to flank, as they were also invisible and in on the ambush.

Right -- forgot that CL 7 is 3rd level spells. We do have someone who could actually pass the Spot check required, but it's still real tough (his modifier is +27 or something?).

Still: How do I (er, how does the DM) know what spells the dragon has? Does he pick them? If so, are they spells off the Sor/Wiz list as though the dragon were a 7th-level sorcerer? I don't know how this works.

EDIT... This is entirely my fault, but I'm going to blame it on the inconvenient page break in the entry: I now see section of the monster entry that says "Typical Sorcerer spells known", right below "Spells: As 3rd-level sorcerer", for the sample Adult sand dragon. My guess is, the DM is taking that as THE list for the dragon, and doesn't understand that he gets more spells than that (and can pick different ones).

WhamBamSam
2015-07-05, 10:18 PM
The DM should be selecting spells known for the dragon as he would for a human Sorcerer NPC he was making. There is little difference except perhaps in the spells you choose.

If the party is targeting its touch AC, the dragon will likely want to buff up with Scintilating Scales. Blood Wind can be handy if the thing wants to make a full attack but isn't close enough and doesn't wish to be. Blinding Breath could make for a nasty way to open the fight if the PCs aren't prepared to deal with it. Most of the usual suspects off the Sorcerer list (Glitterdust, Web, Wings of Cover, Stinking Cloud, etc.) are good bets as well.