Undead and Good Cleric, problem.

[D4rkh0rus]

I am currently playing a Necropolitan character, while theres a player playing a Good Cleric (Turn Undead)

While I can convince him that I'm not an enemy, that would still pose the problem of his Turn Undead.


Since its a 60 feet. burst around the cleric, I would need to either be far from him at all times, or gain some form of protection.


Now, What can I do in order to achieve this?

Is there any way to obtain immunity to turn undead?

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

The Improved Turn Resistance feat from Libris Mortis will help some. There's also a Cloak of Turn Resistance, which I think was written up in a WotC article. An always-on item of protection from good could help too.

I don't know of any way to get turn immunity outside of maybe a PrC or.. isn't there a lich template, baelnorn maybe, that has it?

[Keld Denar]

Turning is done by proximity first. The closest undeaders get turned first. You don't have to be 60' away, just closer than a decent number of undead when he does it. If he runs out of HD before he gets to you, you are safe.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

So maybe the thing to do is carry around a wand of animate dead and use it to keep a nice buffer of cheap, crap undead between you and him.

[Extra Anchovies]

Just fight the undead normally instead of using the class feature that usually only delays the encounter anyways?

Seriously, turning undead is just about the worst use of Turn Undead. Even in a low-op environment without DMM, it's much better spent on divine and domain feats. Any undead that's weak enough to be destroyed via Turn Undead could instead by destroyed by the party beatstick with a lesser expenditure of resources, and any undead that isn't destroyed via Turn Undead just flees. Which means you'll have to fight it later, and if it's intelligent it will have brought all of its friends.

[D4rkh0rus]

Just fight the undead normally instead of using the class feature that usually only delays the encounter anyways?

Seriously, turning undead is just about the worst use of Turn Undead. Even in a low-op environment without DMM, it's much better spent on divine and domain feats. Any undead that's weak enough to be destroyed via Turn Undead could instead by destroyed by the party beatstick with a lesser expenditure of resources, and any undead that isn't destroyed via Turn Undead just flees. Which means you'll have to fight it later, and if it's intelligent it will have brought all of its friends.

I wish.... But alas, some people just don't realize they're doing the unoptimal thing, my word, how preposterous!

But yeah, He wanted to go for a turning build, Dissapeared for a few weeks and now just came back, so it becomes a problem.



The Improved Turn Resistance feat from Libris Mortis will help some. There's also a Cloak of Turn Resistance, which I think was written up in a WotC article. An always-on item of protection from good could help too.


Good options. How would Protection from Good help? It doesnt say anything about Turning.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Just fight the undead normally instead of using the class feature that usually only delays the encounter anyways?

Seriously, turning undead is just about the worst use of Turn Undead. Even in a low-op environment without DMM, it's much better spent on divine and domain feats. Any undead that's weak enough to be destroyed via Turn Undead could instead by destroyed by the party beatstick with a lesser expenditure of resources, and any undead that isn't destroyed via Turn Undead just flees. Which means you'll have to fight it later, and if it's intelligent it will have brought all of its friends.

In fairness, if you can set it up so they can't flee, they cower, and cowering is a pretty good effect to inflict. There are definitely times when turning is quite good.

[Story]

The feat Human Heritage makes you immune to turning (and anything else which specifically targets Undead). It's 1st level only and requires a Human derived race though.

Apart from that, the only method that plays well with a party is getting a high Turn Resistance. Having Total Cover or staying more than 60 feet away also avoids turning but that's hard to arrange on a consistent basis.

[frogglesmash]

In fairness, if you can set it up so they can't flee, they cower, and cowering is a pretty good effect to inflict. There are definitely times when turning is quite good.

Not only that, but taking Disciple of the Sun (BoED) effectively gets you the sun domain power if you spend two turning uses per attempt making it a far more effective solution for getting rid of the BBEG's undead minion horde as well as making a much more serious issue for D4rkh0rus. On that note D4rkh0rus may want to point out that feat to his fellow cleric seeing as he's going turning focus, then again he may want to keep it secret so as to extend his life span.

[Socksy]

One of my friends was going to play a vampire cleric until we realised he would be incapable of picking up and using his own holy symbol. :smalltongue:

Try boosting your turn resistance, or simply being a ranged fighter when you get into combat. Turning affects the nearest undead first.

[Silva Stormrage]

If you can spare a feat and are a human or close enough you could take human heritage. It would change your type to humanoid making you immune to turn undead but also making it so you keep all your undead traits like immunities to fort saves and mind affecting abilities, d12 HD etc etc. You get the best of both worlds really :smalltongue:

[frogglesmash]

If you can spare a feat and are a human or close enough you could take human heritage. It would change your type to humanoid making you immune to turn undead but also making it so you keep all your undead traits like immunities to fort saves and mind affecting abilities, d12 HD etc etc. You get the best of both worlds really :smalltongue:

I know probably been said before, but human heritage is a pretty silly feat when you get right down to it.

[ShurikVch]

Positive Energy Protection - 3rd level cleric spell from Manual of the Planes
Every time target may be affected by the Positive Energy (which explicitly include "the turning abilities of clerics"), roll d20+CL against 11+HD "of the originator of the effect"; if check was successful, then PE effect doesn't work

[Keltest]

The feat Human Heritage makes you immune to turning (and anything else which specifically targets Undead). It's 1st level only and requires a Human derived race though.

Apart from that, the only method that plays well with a party is getting a high Turn Resistance. Having Total Cover or staying more than 60 feet away also avoids turning but that's hard to arrange on a consistent basis.

Doesn't cowering behind a Tower Shield grant total cover?

[frogglesmash]

Positive Energy Protection - 3rd level cleric spell from Manual of the Planes
Every time target may be affected by the Positive Energy (which explicitly include "the turning abilities of clerics"), roll d20+CL against 11+HD "of the originator of the effect"; if check was successful, then PE effect doesn't work

Are you allowed to purposely fail CL checks? Because if not then that only solves the problem 45% of the time.

[ShurikVch]

Are you allowed to purposely fail CL checks? Because if not then that only solves the problem 45% of the time.:smallconfused:
What's you mean?
I understand you can roll badly, and will be affected anyway, but why you ever need to fail the check? It's equal to not having a spell at all!

[AmberVael]

The Life Ward spell (level 4 cleric spell from the SpC) can give you not only full on immunity to turning, but immunity to positive energy in general.

[Andezzar]

The feat Human Heritage makes you immune to turning (and anything else which specifically targets Undead). It's 1st level only and requires a Human derived race though.
Humans are descended from humans, so humans are a human-descended race. Unfortunately the feat can only be taken at 1st level and thus before the necropolitan template is acquired. The template changes the type to undead.


Doesn't cowering behind a Tower Shield grant total cover?Yes, it does. So just time the turning with the cleric.

[AmberVael]

Humans are descended from humans, so humans are a human-descended race. Unfortunately the feat can only be taken at 1st level and thus before the necropolitan template is acquired. The template changes the type to undead.

Even if the template makes your type actually undead (which I'm not certain it would), so long as you have the feat you're treated as humanoid (human) for all purposes. Including Turning, presumably. So you could just take the feat and become necropolitan later and it should work.

[Andezzar]

Yeah you're right. I somehow thought the feat had different benefits based on the creature's previous type. Yes Necroplitan changes the creature type to undead:
The creature’s type changes to undead, and it gains the augmented subtype. Do not recalculate base attack bonus, saves, or skill points. Size is unchanged

[Rubik]

The feat Human Heritage makes you immune to turning (and anything else which specifically targets Undead). It's 1st level only and requires a Human derived race though.Any creature with a human ancestor (and since humans are capable of breeding with nigh anything, that means any biological race, potentially, and with a bit of thought, many non-biological races, as well), all you have to do is say there's a human somewhere in your family tree far back enough that no other traits shine through. Any creature with the feat can be considered a throwback, but there doesn't need to be any other justification to qualify for it.

The necropolitan could always undeadify some butterflies or something, which would soak up any attempt to turn undead near him.

[Extra Anchovies]

The necropolitan could always undeadify some butterflies or something, which would soak up any attempt to turn undead near him.

I think the concern isn't so much the necropolitan being turned as it is the necropolitan's proximity to the cleric.

A use-activated item of Life Ward crafted by an Ur-Priest can be purchased for 32,000 GP. My favorite thing to do with use-activated items is to make them into magical shoes that trigger each time you take a step, which makes the effect practically continuous without those pesky cost multipliers. If that doesn't fly with your DM, you can make it continuous for 64K GP.

If you're at a point where 32K GP is still a non-trivial cost, just stick with the tower shield.

[AmberVael]

Yeah you're right. I somehow thought the feat had different benefits based on the creature's previous type. Yes Necroplitan changes the creature type to undead:

Necropolitan alone does make you undead, yes. But feats aren't exactly the same as templates- you continue benefiting from a feat, normally. My uncertainty largely comes from whether its correct to just apply the effects of human heritage once as if it was a template.

[Andezzar]

It is. A template uses the statistics of the base creature unless stated in the template. Human Heritage does not actually change the race of the creature and neither does the necropolitan template. So you end up with creature from a half-human/human descended race with the Undead type and the human and augmented humanoid subtypes that is treated as a humanoid with the human subtype for the purpose of adjudicating all effects.

[AmberVael]

It is. A template uses the statistics of the base creature unless stated in the template. Human Heritage does not actually change the race of the creature and neither does the necropolitan template. So you end up with creature from a half-human/human descended race with the Undead type and the human and augmented humanoid subtypes that is treated as a humanoid with the human subtype for the purpose of adjudicating all effects.

The thing is, you keep the feat, and keep benefiting from the feat. The benefit of the feat is that your "If you are not a humanoid, your type changes humanoid." Sure, your type becomes undead when you are a necropolitan... but then "you are not a humanoid, your type changes to humanoid," right? There's no wording to say the feat's benefit only occurs once.

Admittedly, I'm not sure it is anything more than semantics given the first clause in the feat.

[Andezzar]

There isn't any wording that it occurs more than once either.

[Zombimode]

Necropolitan alone does make you undead, yes. But feats aren't exactly the same as templates- you continue benefiting from a feat, normally. My uncertainty largely comes from whether its correct to just apply the effects of human heritage once as if it was a template.

Hm, I'm curious: how does Human Heritage prevent a Turn Undead effect?

I'm AFB right now, but from what I gather Human Heritage lets you count as a (human) for everything that cares about that. But you are still of the undead type and thus still affected by Turn effects.

Just like in Magic the Gathering an Izzet Guildmage is a valid target for a Red Elemental Blast despite being a red permanent. Because it is also a blue permanent and thus satisfies the Red Elemental Blast's target restriction. Or how Siege Rhino is an invalid target for a Terror despite being a green/white creature. Because it is also a black creature and thus fails to satisfy the non-black target restriction of Terror.

Am I missing something?

[Extra Anchovies]

Hm, I'm curious: how does Human Heritage prevent a Turn Undead effect?

I'm AFB right now, but from what I gather Human Heritage lets you count as a (human) for everything that cares about that. But you are still of the undead type and thus still affected by Turn effects.

The primary benefit of Human Heritage is "You are treated as a humanoid with the human subtype for the purpose of adjudicating all effects." Since "determining whether you're affected by Turn Undead" is in the category of "adjudicating all effects", you're treated as human for TU purposes.

[AmberVael]

There isn't any wording that it occurs more than once either.

Imagine if the feat instead said "if you are stunned, your type becomes humanoid." Same wording, same effect- does it only happen once?
The feat is a conditional. It gives no limits on that conditional. If X, then Y. Not "When you take this feat, become humanoid," not "this feat makes you become humanoid, all later effects that would change your type supersede this feat," just "if you are not humanoid, you become humanoid."

So if you are not humanoid? You become humanoid. Whenever that occurs.


Hm, I'm curious: how does Human Heritage prevent a Turn Undead effect?

I'm AFB right now, but from what I gather Human Heritage lets you count as a (human) for everything that cares about that. But you are still of the undead type and thus still affected by Turn effects.

Just like in Magic the Gathering an Izzet Guildmage is a valid target for a Red Elemental Blast despite being a red permanent. Because it is also a blue permanent and thus satisfies the Red Elemental Blast's target restriction. Or how Siege Rhino is an invalid target for a Terror despite being a green/white creature. Because it is also a black creature and thus fails to satisfy the non-black target restriction of Terror.

Am I missing something?

"You are treated as humanoid for the purposes of adjudicating all effects." Is the first part of the feat.

Turn Undead affects creatures with the Undead type.

If you have human heritage, you aren't treated as a creature with the undead type. You are treated as a humanoid instead. Turn Undead does nothing to a humanoid, and so nothing to you.

[Bad Wolf]

What class are you? That might help.

[icefractal]

"You are treated as humanoid for the purposes of adjudicating all effects." Is the first part of the feat.

Turn Undead affects creatures with the Undead type.

If you have human heritage, you don't aren't treated as a creature with the undead type. You are treated as a humanoid instead. Turn Undead does nothing to a humanoid, and so nothing to you.That is an interesting question though. Are you treated solely as humanoid, or are you just treated as humanoid in addition to whatever else? I can't think of anything else in D&D with this effect, so there may be nothing to compare the wording to, but it could be read either way.

[Zombimode]

"You are treated as humanoid for the purposes of adjudicating all effects." Is the first part of the feat.

Turn Undead affects creatures with the Undead type.

If you have human heritage, you don't aren't treated as a creature with the undead type. You are treated as a humanoid instead. Turn Undead does nothing to a humanoid, and so nothing to you.

Ah well, if the feat is worded that way I can see how this can be viewed as RAW. But I'm pretty sure it's not RAI.

[Rubik]

That is an interesting question though. Are you treated solely as humanoid, or are you just treated as humanoid in addition to whatever else? I can't think of anything else in D&D with this effect, so there may be nothing to compare the wording to, but it could be read either way.You're a humanoid with the human subtype, which means that, no, you are not undead any longer (in the above case with the necropolitan). However, you retain all the type-based traits, such as -- Con, d12 HD, heal via negative energy, have all the immunities, and so on, meaning you're still immune to Charm/Dominate Person (immunity to mind-affecting effects). You can't be affected by beneficial effects that affect undead (such as Haunt Shift), but are affected by Enlarge Person and such, instead.

[Th3N3xtGuy]

Have you tried to ask the DM for the Turn resistance of a deathless. Resistance to turning is half your total spell resistance plus whatever your base race gives.

[icefractal]

You're a humanoid with the human subtype,Treated as one, but yes, that much is clear. However ...
which means that, no, you are not undead any longerNot so sure about that. Being treated as X doesn't necessarily mean you aren't also treated as Y. A good-aligned demon, for example, detects as both good and evil, neither overrides the other.

[AmberVael]

Treated as one, but yes, that much is clear. However ...Not so sure about that. Being treated as X doesn't necessarily mean you aren't also treated as Y. A good-aligned demon, for example, detects as both good and evil, neither overrides the other.

Well, assuming you aren't using an undead template that you got afterwards, you do in fact become a humanoid straight up.

And if you accept the argument I was making earlier, you remain humanoid regardless of if your type would change later.

[icefractal]

Well, assuming you aren't using an undead template that you got afterwards, you do in fact become a humanoid straight up.(bolding mine) That's the point of contention, I think. The feat doesn't transform you into a humanoid or set your type to humanoid, it says that you're treated as humanoid for resolving effects. Which is why you wouldn't lose undead benefits like the d12 HD. So Enlarge Person definitely works, because you count as human. But whether you stop counting as undead is less certain.
Edit: Misremembered.

[Rubik]

Treated as one, but yes, that much is clear. However ...Not so sure about that. Being treated as X doesn't necessarily mean you aren't also treated as Y. A good-aligned demon, for example, detects as both good and evil, neither overrides the other.Ahem.


If you are not a humanoid, your type changes to humanoid and you gain the human subtype.

How is that not, "You're a humanoid with the human subtype"?

You're treated as a humanoid (human) because you ARE a humanoid (human).

[Andezzar]

Actually the type does change if you are not humanoid. The question is when and how often that happens. If it really happens every time the creature is not humanoid you would have some interesting interaction with polymorph and similar spells.

[icefractal]

Whoops! I must have been thinking of something different. Posting before coffee - not even once. :smalltongue:

[AmberVael]

Don't worry about it. I did the same thing the other day- on the same part of the same feat, in fact. I just caught my error and deleted it before anyone replied. :smalltongue: