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Primal Fury
2015-07-06, 12:10 AM
I'm wondering if a Demon Lord would keep their status as such after ascending to godhood.

Feddlefew
2015-07-06, 12:18 AM
I see no reason why they can't be a god AND a demon lord. In standard D&D cosmology, the only thing which separates gods from non-gods is a critical mass of worshipers, which Lolth probably has enough of.

Primal Fury
2015-07-06, 01:04 AM
Is that all? I thought that had something to do with their composition or something. Neat.

Feddlefew
2015-07-06, 02:48 AM
Venica is explicitly a god AND a lich, but he and Lolth are both minor deities. I think the greater deities are more along the lines of sentient concepts.

hamishspence
2015-07-06, 05:55 AM
Bahamut and Tiamat, despite being deities, are Dragons rather than Outsiders.

I think Orcus, for a while, was a deity and a demon lord, before being slain and coming back as the undead deity Tenebrous. And then being resurrected as the demon lord (but not deity) Orcus, which is the state he's currently in.

TheCountAlucard
2015-07-06, 10:04 AM
Is that all? I thought that had something to do with their composition or something. Neat.(Using the nonmonotheistic definition of "god" since the monotheistic definition doesn't work for this)



2. a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity. "a moon god"Godhood's not a club with a very exclusive membership.

The barrier stopping most high-level characters from godhood is being worshipped. "Power over nature or human fortunes" is pretty easy to achieve with even mid-level magic.

Inevitability
2015-07-06, 10:47 AM
Actually, was she ever a demon lord at all? Wouldn't the proper term be 'demon lady'? :smalltongue:

KillianHawkeye
2015-07-06, 11:22 PM
Well, she still rules over her very own layer of the Abyss, so yes.

TheCountAlucard
2015-07-07, 06:35 AM
"Demon Lord" as it stands is something of a gender-neutral term.

SowZ
2015-07-07, 05:25 PM
(Using the nonmonotheistic definition of "god" since the monotheistic definition doesn't work for this)

Godhood's not a club with a very exclusive membership.

The barrier stopping most high-level characters from godhood is being worshipped. "Power over nature or human fortunes" is pretty easy to achieve with even mid-level magic.

A lot of people would say that true god-hood requires Divine Ranks in D&D.

TheCountAlucard
2015-07-07, 05:32 PM
A lot of people would say that true god-hood requires Divine Ranks in D&D.And I'd say, that's an OOC concept in the same sense as Hit Points, Feats, and Skill Ranks. How's anyone going to know an arbitrarily-powerful "true god" from an arbitrarily-powerful superhuman being or spirit worshipped as having power over nature or human fortunes with no "divine ranks," in-character?

(I'll also point out that kobolds have been written as worshipping dragons as gods. Either they don't know about Divine Ranks or they don't care, so why's that a factor?)

SowZ
2015-07-07, 05:43 PM
And I'd say, that's an OOC concept in the same sense as Hit Points, Feats, and Skill Ranks. How's anyone going to know an arbitrarily-powerful "true god" from an arbitrarily-powerful superhuman being or spirit worshipped as having power over nature or human fortunes with no "divine ranks," in-character?

(I'll also point out that. Divine Ranks or no, kobolds have been written as worshipping dragons.)

Sure, my point is just that there is a meta-game rule in place for what constitutes a true god. I'll agree that it is arbitrary and not particularly useful, nor would I as a DM pay it much mind. Lots of things in D&D rules are like that, though.

Psyren
2015-07-08, 05:28 PM
In Golarion, Asmodeus is both a deity and one of the archdevils that rule Hell. So I see no reason you couldn't be both. (Also, the Archdevils and Demon Lords grant spells/domains.)

TheCountAlucard
2015-07-08, 07:01 PM
Sure, my point is just that there is a meta-game rule in place for what constitutes a true god. I'll agree that it is arbitrary and not particularly useful, nor would I as a DM pay it much mind. Lots of things in D&D rules are like that, though.If the rule is pointlessly arbitrary, not useful, exists only in the metagame, and neither of us puts stock in it, then I have trouble believing that "a lot of people" would stand by that rule, nor do I feel I should jump on their bandwagon if they do.

StoryKeeper
2015-07-08, 08:28 PM
There are rules for worshipping Orcus who is, most decidedly, a "demon lord." Even his underling, the ghoul guy, has rules for being worshipped in Libris Mortis. So guys like Orcus can be worshipped, grant powers to clerics, and have domains associated with them. Whether or not that counts as a deity is up to you. Now, deities & demigods had rules for "divine spark," but that's technically an optional rule.

DireSickFish
2015-07-09, 08:55 AM
I think she's a demon lord because she rules over the 666th layer of the abyss, the Demonweb Pits. And she is clearly the god of the Drow race as she leads the pantheon and has power over them.

Orcus for comparison rules over a layer of the Abys called Thanatos. Okay then I did a little reading on the FR wiki to find out what he was the god of and couldn't find anything. It just says he became a god and when he was raised the second time he sought out his wand to become a deity again, but failed int hat quest. I think he used to be the god of undeath as well as the demon prince of undeath but I can't find any sources to verify this.

You can have power and followers and be able to grant spells but none of that makes you a god. I think there are a variety of ways to become a god in FR. You must be the god OF something I think have a portfolio or domain. How that's determined seems fuzzy.

hamishspence
2015-07-09, 09:56 AM
Orcus for comparison rules over a layer of the Abys called Thanatos. Okay then I did a little reading on the FR wiki to find out what he was the god of and couldn't find anything. It just says he became a god and when he was raised the second time he sought out his wand to become a deity again, but failed int hat quest. I think he used to be the god of undeath as well as the demon prince of undeath but I can't find any sources to verify this.

The Greyhawk wiki goes into a little more detail:

http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Orcus

Zaydos
2015-07-09, 04:32 PM
When it was decided Lolth was a deity they retconned her into always having been one and having once been good aligned, and evil deities can rule layers of the Abyss.

Now Orcus ceased being a demon lord to become a god, but 2e Asmodeus was a Greater Deity (theoretically greater than any other except the god of coatls) and an archfiend. When it was retconned that Bahamut and Tiamat were gods and not merely extremely powerful dragons Tiamat ceased to be Lord of the First, and when planescape did mention the Lords of the Nine in hushed tones it was specifically as non-gods who on their layer could bring to bear more power than a god.

So it's all over the place. I'd say it depends upon the setting, which set of contradictory lore about Lolth is being used, and what the DM wants. Is she a demon lord posing as a goddess? A demon lord ascended to divinity? A goddess who turned evil and possibly became a demon lord as well?

hamishspence
2015-07-10, 02:08 AM
I'd have gone with "Corellon took away her divinity when he exiled her to the Abyss - but through cultivation of drow worship of her, she got it back".


Evermeet (by Elaine Cunningham): Corellon handing down sentence on Araushnee:

"For what you have done, for what you have become, you are named tanar'ri. Be what you are, and go where you must."

Psyren
2015-07-10, 09:38 AM
I'd have gone with "Corellon took away her divinity when he exiled her to the Abyss - but through cultivation of drow worship of her, she got it back".


Evermeet (by Elaine Cunningham): Corellon handing down sentence on Araushnee:

"For what you have done, for what you have become, you are named tanar'ri. Be what you are, and go where you must."

I would argue that only Ao can remove divinity. Considering that he exiled all the drow along with her, my thought is that she never lost it, since all her worshipers went with her and were still worshiping her.

hamishspence
2015-07-10, 09:46 AM
I would argue that only Ao can remove divinity.
As head of the elven pantheon, Corellon may also have limited powers in that line.


Considering that he exiled all the drow along with her, my thought is that she never lost it, since all her worshipers went with her and were still worshiping her.

Nope - in Faerun at least, the events of Lolth's exile take place long before the Descent of the Drow - and at least for a while, Lolth isn't worshipped- and the dark elves are surface dwellers.

A big plot point is that Lolth isn't really a deity anymore after her exile - and that the dark elves have turned to the worship of Vhaerun and Eilistraee (her son and daughter), Ghaunadar (an interloper), Kiaransalee (an ascended mortal) and so forth.

Then Lolth starts cultivating worship, and gains control of the dark elven pantheon, and at some point during the Crown Wars, the dark elves are banished underground and renamed the drow.

Psyren
2015-07-10, 11:00 AM
Nope - in Faerun at least, the events of Lolth's exile take place long before the Descent of the Drow - and at least for a while, Lolth isn't worshipped- and the dark elves are surface dwellers.

A big plot point is that Lolth isn't really a deity anymore after her exile - and that the dark elves have turned to the worship of Vhaerun and Eilistraee (her son and daughter), Ghaunadar (an interloper), Kiaransalee (an ascended mortal) and so forth.

Then Lolth starts cultivating worship, and gains control of the dark elven pantheon, and at some point during the Crown Wars, the dark elves are banished underground and renamed the drow.

That sounds like a retcon to me. Races of the Wild has her take the drow down with her:


Araushnee’s treachery did not go unpunished. For her betrayal, Araushnee was cast out of the Seldarine and transformed into a demonic spider-form. Renaming herself Lolth, she called to the elves created in her image, the drow, and retreated with them beneath the earth.

There is nothing there about her losing her divinity - only her form and place among the Seldarine, and no mention of her elves following anyone else.

Faiths & Pantheons tells the same tale:


For her crimes, Araushnee was banished to the Abyss in the form of a spider demon, where she took the name Lolth. As the original patron of the dark elves, the Queen of Spiders established herself as the unchallenged ruler of the Drow pantheon.

For her to do that, she would have to still be their deity, which means no one stopped worshiping her.

The Drow version even has their flight be simultaneous. DotU:


The elves of the Seldarine marched against Lolth's duaral, and though the duaral were stronger and more skilled, they could not stand up to the elves' greater numbers. Led by their goddess, the survivors retreated deep into the caverns beneath the earth, where the nature-loving elves were too frightened to follow. And there did they begin to thrive.

Basically the chain of events is:

1) Araushnee engineers the famous fight between Corellon and Grummsh.
2) She attempts to take over Arvandor while she thinks Corellon is weakened.
3) She fails, gets renamed Lolth, and is exiled. As the most powerful drow deity, she takes over the pantheon, and assumes control of her children thereafter.

hamishspence
2015-07-11, 01:08 AM
Evermeet is older than any of those (published in 1999)- which means that any retconning would be in the books written after it. It also uses the "Lloth" spelling variant.

Races of the Wild and Drow of the Underdark are Greyhawk-verse, too - so the Descent of the Drow works differently there.

In FR, She establishes herself as "the unchallenged ruler of the drow pantheon" over the millennia after her banishment "in the form of a spider demon". And even then, she doesn't attain godhood till afterward:

The gray sludge that covered the Abyss suddenly bulged into a large bubble, which popped and sent sulphurous steam and globs of foul-smelling muck spewing into the dank air. The being who had once been the goddess Araushnee dodged the splatter instinctively, not giving the eruption so much as a thought. She was accustomed to such things by now, for the Abyss had been her home for a very long time.
Like most tanar'ri, she had taken a new name. She was now Lloth, Demon Queen of the Abyss. Or, to be more precise, she had conquered a considerable portion of the Abyss, and was considered to be one of the most powerful tanar'ri in that gray world. Entire leagues of the fearful creatures trembled before her and hastened to do her bidding.
Lloth's dominion encompassed not only the denizens of the Abyss, but also some of the gods who had come to this place either by choice or exile. Her struggle with Ghaunadar had been long and bitter.
The Elemental Evil was not one of the gods whom she had recruited in her attempt to oust Corellon; he had come to Olympus unbidden, drawn by Araushnee's ambitions and her vaulting pride, granted entrance by the seething evil within her heart. Her fall from Arvandor had delighted Ghaunadar, for he desired the restless energy that was Araushnee, and wished to assimilate her into himself.
The ancient god had followed her from Olympus into the Abyss, and he had tried to woo and then to conquer-and he had failed at both. In his rage, Ghaunadar had slain many of his most powerful worshipers, and robbed others of their sentience. Entire species of beings were no more, others were reduced to sluglike creatures without thought or will. And in doing so, Ghaunadar destroyed much of his own power, as well.
This he blamed on Lloth. He was her enemy now, and a rival in all things. Yet even such as he, an ancient god, had to acknowledge Lloth's greater power. Nor was he the only deity to do so-even that wretched Kiaranselee gave homage to the Demon Queen.
Lloth cast a disgusted glance toward the corner of the Abyss where the goddess of the undead held sway. Kiaranselee was a dark elf, like herself, though she called herself "drow." Her followers were pitiful shadows of the creatures they once had been, evil elves from an ancient world whom Kiaranselee had slain and made into unthinking minions. When she was not on distant worlds bedeviling her drow children, Kiaranselee was content to rule in her frigid corner of the Abyss. She demurred to Lloth because she had no choice in the matter. In this place, the former goddess of dark-elven destiny ruled.
And so it was that she who had been Araushnee had come to possess everything that she once thought she wanted: power beyond imagining, a kingdom of her own, gods kneeling before her, mighty creatures trembling at her whims.
Lloth stifled a yawn.
It was all so predictable, the Abyss. She had conquered, and she reigned, and she was so bored that she had once or twice been tempted to try to strike up a conversation with some of Kiaranselee's undead minions. She had power, but found it did not satisfy her cravings.
"I curse you, Corellon, you and yours," Lloth murmured, as she had so often over the many centuries that had passed since her banishment.
The darkly beautiful tanar'ri sank onto a throne which her minions had carved from a giant, desiccated mushroom. Propping her chin in her hands, she once again pondered her fate.
None of the power that Lloth had gained in the Abyss could amend for her lost status. She was no longer even a goddess, but a tanar'ri. Her form was more comely and her power was greater than most of the creatures that inhabited this place, but she was not what she had been. No amount of power in this gray, mushroom-infested plane would erase Corellon's unpaid debt.
Suddenly Lloth sat upright, her crimson eyes blazing with inspiration. Of course! Now that power was hers, she would reclaim her godhood. The way to this goal had been blazed by Ghaunadar himself; the Ancient One was seeking new worshippers so that he might rebuild his power. Why could she not do the same?
As a tanar'ri, Lloth could never return to Olympus. Even as a goddess, she might never amass the power or find the opportunity to enter Arvandor as a conqueror. But she would strike at the Seldarine where she could.
She would destroy their mortal children.

In A Grand History of the Realms (published right before the changeover to 5e) the events of Evermeet are used - Lolth is banished some time around -30000 Dale-reckoning, she discovers the existence of Toril around -24400 DR when an elf leads a force against her minions in the Abyss (a bit after the above quoted scene - the narration starts referring to her as a goddess again)- and the dark elves are banished Below in -10000 DR.

Scene from Evermeet immediately after Lolth is transformed.

Corellon kept his sword up before him, unwilling to make the first strike. His former consort spoke a few sibilant words, and then spat; a stream of luminous venom streaked toward him. He turned his sword slightly and caught the stream with the flat of the blade. There was a horrible hiss and crackle as the venom met and battled the elven blade's magical defenses. But Sahandrian held, and Corellon's defensive swing sent a spray of scattered droplets back upon Araushnee.
The former goddess screamed in agony as the acidlike poison singed hair from her spidery form and ate deep into the flesh beneath.

Closet_Skeleton
2015-07-11, 03:42 AM
And I'd say, that's an OOC concept in the same sense as Hit Points, Feats, and Skill Ranks.

Divine ranks are not OOC, the exact numbers might be but what they represent is not abstract in Forgotten Realms at least. Skill ranks aren't really OOC either, the characters can tell that someone with 16 ranks is more skilled than someone with 15 ranks without knowing what the actual scale is.

You can be Divine Rank 0 though.

Temple of Elemental Evil goes through the "worshipped but not technically a true god thing".

Irennan
2015-07-11, 05:43 AM
That sounds like a retcon to me. Races of the Wild has her take the drow down with her:



No retcon, there's a lot of history before Lolth gets to become the main drow deity. In fact you even have the dark elves founding the empires/kingdoms Ilythiir and Miyeritar, where Vhaeraun and Eilistraee were the main deities, respectively. It was a combination of the Crown Wars, the Dark Disaster (that led to the extermination of Eilistraee's followers in Miyeritar) and the ritual that created Evermeet (that caused the destruction of Atorrnash and great part of Ilythiir and the death of many Vhaeraun worshippers) that made it so Lolth could take the spotlight.

Neoxenok
2015-07-13, 08:07 PM
I'm wondering if a Demon Lord would keep their status as such after ascending to godhood.

Nah. Lolth has since upgraded to Demon Sith Lord Goddess and has been named Darth Culpate.

But seriously though, as a goddess, she can designate herself as whatever she wants but according to her history, her time as a goddess severely dwarfs her time as the queen of spiders or as a non-divine entity in general. Though this many not seem true to her worshippers who may only know of her time since the fall as her true history. I honestly doubt that anyone in the Forgotten Realms thinks of her as a demon lord.

As far as any sort of cosmic designation, though, I honestly doubt that the distinction between being a demon lord and a goddess is significant enough to matter in terms of power, though gods and goddesses in forgotten realms have responsibilities that demon lords don't.

As a side note, I'm suddenly enamored with the idea of Lolth carrying a lightsabre. Perhaps a darklightsabre?

goto124
2015-07-13, 08:27 PM
Wouldn't it hurt her eyes and just make her enemies' clothes look dirty? xkcd reference

Psyren
2015-07-14, 09:08 AM
Races of the Wild and Drow of the Underdark are Greyhawk-verse, too - so the Descent of the Drow works differently there.


Greyhawk has an Underdark? I could have sworn that was a Toril-specific feature.

Fine, I'll concede that she didn't consider herself a goddess after her exile - but given that she was busily kicking the asses of actual deities down in the Abyss that whole time, and with no worshipers at all, the obvious question then is what (un)earthly difference the designation even makes in a narrative sense. In other words, if you can get kicked out of your pantheon, land in a god's domain, and still beat the tar out of said god, you're practically a god yourself, whether you nominally have the title or not.

I consider the lack of such title more as a reference to being ejected from the Seldarine, rather than any actual change in her "power level," which clearly stayed well over 9000 or however gods measure it. Hell, if anything being a tanar'ri made her even more deadly, as she could function without any worship at all, though this was of course long before Ao mandated that requirement.She should have stayed without it, it seems actively detrimental.

hamishspence
2015-07-14, 09:27 AM
Greyhawk has an Underdark? I could have sworn that was a Toril-specific feature.


Greyhawk's has the Vault of the Drow, and the city of Erelhei-Cinlu, with Eclavdra as Lolth's high priestess.

Neoxenok
2015-07-14, 02:07 PM
Wouldn't it hurt her eyes and just make her enemies' clothes look dirty? xkcd reference

The XKCD is strong with this one.