Unearthed Arcana- Psionics and the Mystic.

[Chadamantium]

http://dnd.wizards.com/sites/default/files/media/upload/articles/Psionics.pdf

What teases WotC are. Only 5 levels.

[Naanomi]

Glad to see another intelligence based class; not so happy to see far realms being the source of psionics again... But that is easily ignorable fluff. Excited to see where it goes and if there will be more than one psionic base class

[Mando Knight]

So, it looks like the Mystic is taking the spot that was formerly held by the Psion? I like the former name a bit more, though the Psion has the kind of intuitive naming that fits in with "Mage" and "Fighter." Order of the Immortal looks like they're trying to merge Psion with Psychic Warrior, with the class effectively being chosen by your Order.

Also, I find it amusing that they didn't even bother to clean up the title of the document: Firefox displays the tab as "Microsoft Word - Psionics.docx - Psionics.pdf"

[Ramshack]

Seems pretty strong so far.

[frasmage]

Celerity Discipline seems like a really nice complement to an Assassin Rogue, get advantage + optional bonus to initiative to more or less guarantee going first and getting surprise. Attack with advantage + sneak attack. Then if the target is still alive, you can drop psi point for an extra action for another guaranteed crit.

[Ralanr]

I'm not sure how I feel about awakened. On one side, they can cover a weak stat save, on the other they have none of the rare saves and the only class who gets something similar is the monk at level 14.

I don't like how immortal can spend 5 points for action surge, not with the point progression. I'd rather action surge be fighters thing, not be doable even with costs from other classes.

At least now I know you can't mentally talk back to that GOO warlock.

Not sure if I should show this to my friend.

[Magic Myrmidon]

I rather like it so far. It's interesting that the mystic doesn't really seem like a "caster/manifester". No huge list of spells/powers, for example. Instead, you get various useful and flavorful abilities. It reminds me of a warlock in the sense that they have less freedom of choice in abilities, but can use them more often. Interesting direction to take psionics.

Now, I have to wonder how far the Order of the Immortal will be able to take their class features. They're basically psionic fighters. If they get to do way more than fighters, it'll be pretty good proof for the whole "mundanes can't have nice things", while anyone with supernatural abilities can.

[Naanomi]

Another action surge? More multiclassing madness to shoot as many eldritch blasts possible each round! Fighter/warlock/sorcerer/mystic??

[GiantOctopodes]

For Psionic Weapon, shouldn't it be "You can channel psionic energy into a weapon you wield -OR- your unarmed strikes"? Man, they just can't keep it straight...

On a side note, Ethereal weapon pairs absurdly well with Volley -if- you follow the whole Volley/Whirlwind attack are one attack philosophy (I do not). Celerity with its extra actions pairs well with everything, and I see no reason it would not stack with Haste (as it does not require concentration) to allow 3 actions per turn. Toss Action Surge on top of that, and are we already looking at the possibility of 4 actions in a single round?

I must say though, if this is the only psionic class they introduce, I'm a bit disappointed. It's kinda like how the Battlemaster fighter is supposedly a replacement for the Tome of Battle characters. Instead of having an entire system that can serve as a replacement for magic, we get a handful of abilities from discrete lists, none of which from what I'm seeing allow you to augment them with additional power points spent? Ugh. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather have some psionics than none at all, but so far, color me a bit underwhelmed.

[The_Ditto]

I rather like it so far. It's interesting that the mystic doesn't really seem like a "caster/manifester". No huge list of spells/powers, for example. Instead, you get various useful and flavorful abilities. It reminds me of a warlock in the sense that they have less freedom of choice in abilities, but can use them more often. Interesting direction to take psionics.

Now, I have to wonder how far the Order of the Immortal will be able to take their class features. They're basically psionic fighters. If they get to do way more than fighters, it'll be pretty good proof for the whole "mundanes can't have nice things", while anyone with supernatural abilities can.

I'm looking at my fighter (Battlemaster) based archer at the moment, thinking a dip of a few levels into Order of the Immortal will turn him into a monster ... O.o

+2 to hit with archer style.
+3 to hit for 1 minute (for 5 psi pts)
sharpshooter: -5 hit, +10 dmg
Maneuver dice, for extra dmg/effect.
then Lethal Strike for up to +5d10 dmg ..

quite the bursty dmg vs single target when needed :)
lol

[numerek]

The surge of action takes a bonus action to get so you are basically converting your bonus action into an action which is worse than action surge and would not work with quicken spell so sorcerer is out. But you could potentially get 3 non-cantrip spells cast this way.

[SharkForce]

Now, I have to wonder how far the Order of the Immortal will be able to take their class features. They're basically psionic fighters. If they get to do way more than fighters, it'll be pretty good proof for the whole "mundanes can't have nice things", while anyone with supernatural abilities can.

at level 3 they get the champion capstone ability, which is basically the only really amazing high-level fighter ability in the game (the rest of the fighter's high-level abilities typically are just their low level abilities being usable more often, with the exception of eldritch knight's spellcasting that isn't exactly going to be usable often).

how is this even in question?

[langal]

Does this synergize well with Monks? A little MAD I suppose. Not in front of book, but stacking damage with some of the Elemental moves has potential. Celerity could save you from having to take Mobility.

[HugeC]

Celerity with its extra actions pairs well with everything, and I see no reason it would not stack with Haste (as it does not require concentration) to allow 3 actions per turn.

You have to concentrate on Celerity to use Surge of Action.

[ImSAMazing]

It looks cool to me.

[Ralanr]

The surge of action takes a bonus action to get so you are basically converting your bonus action into an action which is worse than action surge and would not work with quicken spell so sorcerer is out. But you could potentially get 3 non-cantrip spells cast this way.


You have to concentrate on Celerity to use Surge of Action.

Yes, but at max a level 17 fighter can do action surge twice in combat and they have to be after each other.

This guy, with enough points (and he will based on whatever they are using to calculate progression) can use action surge multiple times in a battle without them being after the other.

It doesn't matter if they get so many cool abilities that they'll use their points on instead. The problem that arises is that they have the potential to do something only a fighter can do, and arguably do it better. Even if it does cost a bonus action, when you want to use it, the cost isn't an issue.

Incidentally, does this mean barbarians can rage as they concentrate on psionics? It's not magic, as explained in the doc.

Edit: I think they have very cool abilities, but I'm in the boat of keeping classes from sharing the same abilities.

Magic users share spells, but not in how they can effect them.

[SharkForce]

so i'm looking at this, and i suspect it is going to be spectacularly broken unless they make some changes.

consider, for example, the order of the awakened. at level 1, they get an ability that targets int instead of AC (so... probably substantially easier to hit for the vast majority of creatures) and does not require line of sight or line of effect (it ignores cover. not just partial cover, mind you. all cover). by the time they are level 5, the ability can do up to 6d8 damage. i believe we have now found the class to multiclass into if you want to take some potshots after throwing enemies into a wall of force with no save (bonus points if one of the orders gets access to wall of force somehow).

at third level, they gain an ability to just make an apparently unlimited number of items (takes 10 minutes each) which act as remote cameras for them.

now, come on, i can't *possibly* be the only person who sees the absurdly high amount of synergy (possibly bordering on abusive, possibly even beyond abusive) here, can i?

then we get to some of the abilities. occluded mind is going to be hilarious. int save to resist, doesn't count as charm, and the subject believes *anything* you say about yourself or an object or person they can see in 10 words or less? really? and remember, they don't even need to have a language for you to say something to them, because you're telepathic.

at level 1, third eye is giving out at-will 30 foot blindsight. at level 5, you get the earliest truesight in the game.

and best of all, we're back to non-transparency for the most part. did they get brain damage and forget why 3.x made psionics transparent in the first place? all the stuff they put into place to prevent magic from borking the game will be doing next to nothing against psionics.

[Orbis Orboros]

Unless I'm mistaken, you can get +10 damage on great weapons from GWM with no accuracy penalty if you use Ethereal Weapon, AND still do half damage on a "miss."

[Rhaegar14]

I like the mechanics of Psionic Disciplines, but things are looking a little overpowered as they stand. An Immortal Mystic gets features that are objectively better than both the Fighter's Action Surge and the Paladin's Divine Smite (seriously, Lethal Strike makes Smite's damage look almost hilariously insignificant for roughly the same expenditure of resources), while a 3rd-level Awakened has Suggestion but with all the stipulations that serve to keep Suggestion from being absurdly overpowered removed; "You have to commit suicide right now" is a completely valid use of Occluded Mind by the way it's written. I'd also like to see some generalist Disciplines that all Mystics have access to.

[SharkForce]

[snip] ...while a 3rd-level Awakened has Suggestion but with all the stipulations that serve to keep Suggestion from being absurdly overpowered removed; "You have to commit suicide right now" is a completely valid use of Occluded Mind by the way it's written. I'd also like to see some generalist Disciplines that all Mystics have access to.

not quite. it is fairly likely that the creature is not intended to be counted as a creature it can see.

with that said, there's nothing preventing you from persuading the target that they must kill the guy right next to them right now. that is a completely legitimate use of it. or you could persuade them that their armour is covered in contact poison. or that the rock you're holding is the most valuable gem in the world (and you'll give it to them if they'll just help you out with something). or that the vial of poison you have in your hand is the antidote to a poison they've ingested (note: no requirement that they have actually ingested any poison, or believe that they ingested any poison, just tell them "this is the antidote to a deadly poison you've ingested", and as far as they're concerned they've ingested deadly poison).

like i said, this had better be a really early playtest document, because that ability alone is all kinds of broken.

[EggKookoo]

"In worlds that are relatively stable and hew close to the archetypal D&D setting presented in the core rulebooks, psionics is rare—or might not exist at all."

I approve of this mindset.

[CyberThread]

Now, I have to wonder how far the Order of the Immortal will be able to take their class features. They're basically psionic fighters. If they get to do way more than fighters, it'll be pretty good proof for the whole "mundanes can't have nice things", while anyone with supernatural abilities can.

Considering fighters get 4 swings, while no other class can. The extra action surge really only gives them an extra two swings if they are allowed to get an extra swing. They may get an extra turn but damage wise the fighter is still best with more swings per round bit.

Also the non-mudane version of the fighter can cast spells and swing while this one can't and that is without using action surge.

[Rhaegar14]

Considering fighters get 4 swings, while no other class can. The extra action surge really only gives them an extra two swings if they are allowed to get an extra swing. They may get an extra turn but damage wise the fighter is still best with more swings per round bit.

At level 20. At level 11-19 they're not doing much better than the Paladin (Improved Divine Smite adds almost as much damage per round as a third weapon swing, and improves Opportunity Attacks) and before that they're not making any more swings than any other martial. And I would bet money that the Order of the Immortal is getting Extra Attack at 6th level. You can't just compare the Mystic's capabilities at level 6 to a Fighter's capabilities at level 20 and say that there isn't a balance problem here.

[DireSickFish]

I like the feel of it at the very least. Disciplins requiring concentration and having a small pool of effects you can use is unique enough that I can dig a whole class being based around that.

Am I missing something or can I have Celerity up at all times to always get those cool initiative bonuses?

I'd like to do some play with these classes to see how they really feel, I'm going to have a hard time grasping the cost of powers and how much use they can get until I do.

[Ralanr]

So...no thoughts on barbarian rage and psionic discipline concentration?

It's clear that can't just keep this as is. The psionic fighter can potentially action surge multiple times in the same fight. With the point cost and their point progression (can someone explain the math? It goes to +2, +8, +3, +10. Am I seeing this right? And if so, why?)

And this means it's possible for people to get three saves with a one level dip in awakened. Seems pretty nice to casters that don't want to spend a feat on con prof.

They have some very interesting abilities. Some look fun, and some look way too abusable.

[CyberThread]

At level 20. At level 11-19 they're not doing much better than the Paladin (Improved Divine Smite adds almost as much damage per round as a third weapon swing, and improves Opportunity Attacks) and before that they're not making any more swings than any other martial. And I would bet money that the Order of the Immortal is getting Extra Attack at 6th level. You can't just compare the Mystic's capabilities at level 6 to a Fighter's capabilities at level 20 and say that there isn't a balance problem here.


Would that be any different then fighters getting an action surge while being a battle master, while the other fighter in your group can get action surge but also cast fireball?

[Lord Raziere]

man, only five levels? weak. and why'd they change it to mystic? just call it what it freaking is: A Psion...

I mean sure I like that they're doing it, but come on, why are they calling it Mystic?

[Ralanr]

Would that be any different then fighters getting an action surge while being a battle master, while the other fighter in your group can get action surge but also cast fireball?

Well both fighters are bound by the same rules with action surge.

This guy isn't.

[SharkForce]

Also the non-mudane version of the fighter can cast spells and swing while this one can't and that is without using action surge.

not exactly.

anything that doesn't have an action cost is a non-action to use in psionics. so, for example, you can use ethereal weapon (multiple times) in the same round as you make an attack. and i'd say it's fairly likely for the current disciplines to have higher cost abilities (remember, the psi point cap is 5 at level 5, so they probably have higher cost ones at higher levels that they aren't showing us), and it's fairly likely for the other disciplines they're adding to have some no-action psionics as well.

[Rhaegar14]

Would that be any different then fighters getting an action surge while being a battle master, while the other fighter in your group can get action surge but also cast fireball?

I can't even tell what exactly you mean here to respond to it. Please clarify.

[DireSickFish]

It's clear that can't just keep this as is. The psionic fighter can potentially action surge multiple times in the same fight. With the point cost and their point progression (can someone explain the math? It goes to +2, +8, +3, +10. Am I seeing this right? And if so, why?)

It seems they are comparing them to full casters. They get there biggest power boost from spells (ie new spell levels = more psi point). And on even numbered levels they'd get a new ability or ability score. Which is a bit weird because there 2nd discipline comes at level 2 so would count as a class feature, but they also get a class feature at 3. There increase in Psi maximum also comes at these levels cementing the comparison to full casters.

If I extrapolate the advancement they are making I end up with this across 20 levels:



LVL
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20


Psi Points
4
6
14
17
27
31
43
48
62
68
84
91
109
117
137
146
168
178
202
213


Added
0
2
8
3
10
4
12
5
14
6
16
7
18
8
20
9
22
10
24
11





Which I agree seems a bit high. Unless costs for powers also starts getting very high at those levels. It's a big question what will happen at levels 11+. If they are treated like full casters they should get some big gun epic level spells that are 1/day like a warlock or eat up huge amounts of psi points.

[CyberThread]

Well both fighters are bound by the same rules with action surge.

This guy isn't.


This guy expends precious resource points to gain that. This is an entirely new subsystem. Instead of things being pooled indepdendly like smites vs spell slots, everything goes into one big pile. Yes you can cheat some with using abilties more often then what others could, but you also run out of the ability to use your other functions very quick.

Notice they get a restricted discipline list, rather then a power/spell list. Yeah your stick can do a little more damage, but you lack any ability to manipulate the battle field.

You should compare the eldritch knight to this form, not the battlemaster.

[DireSickFish]

The more I looka t it the more I'm thinking that the Order of the Immortal -won't- get a second attack ever and that Surge of Action is there stand in for a second attack. To increase there damage per attack they're going to need to blow psi in Psionic weapon form to get bonus damage per hit/failed save(depending on if you want to target dex saves or AC) or they get a second attack every round by staying in Celerity.

The cross classing options are big but we already have that this edition but with this class we don't have the high levl abilities yet to see if it's worth staying the course or not.

[CNagy]

Occluded Mind specifies that your statement must describe yourself or a creature/object the target can see. You can't describe someone as "that person is someone you need to kill" because that statement describes the target of Occluded Mind (as needing to kill) rather than the person. It being a description makes it a lot more limiting than it sounds.

It's Unearthed Arcana, so it's not like this is its final form, but I'd rule that any statements which enforce a truth not related to the description fail to meet the requirements. For example, "he looks exactly like the one who murdered your family" is 10 words and would work on someone whose family had been murdered. But if the target's family hasn't been murdered, then you are trying to use Occluded Mind to first convince him that they have (which the ability cannot do) before convincing him that the person over there looks like whoever did it (which it could.)

Clearly allowable uses of Occluded Mind are things like:

This isn't the droid you are looking for.
I look like your best friend.
That hut is on fire!
Your sword is a snake!
He looks like your most hated foe.
This coin is platinum.
This rock is a diamond.

The more I think about it, the more this can be abused. I'm sure its eventual form will be more manageable.

[Ralanr]

This guy expends precious resource points to gain that. This is an entirely new subsystem. Instead of things being pooled indepdendly like smites vs spell slots, everything goes into one big pile. Yes you can cheat some with using abilties more often then what others could, but you also run out of the ability to use your other functions very quick.

Notice they get a restricted discipline list, rather then a power/spell list. Yeah your stick can do a little more damage, but you lack any ability to manipulate the battle field.

You should compare the eldritch knight to this form, not the battlemaster.

While this is true that they have to spend resources, I'm just concerned at why the put in a core fighter ability into this class.

I thought wizards was trying to help with fighters having nice things. Then they throw it on a psychic guy. The fact that they have the potential alone irks me, and by level 5 they'd still have 2 points if they decided to do that in combat.

Combined with the right feats you could play the guy with just that ability and it'd work out (maybe. We don't know if they get the extra attack or not).

Being reminded that martials or just non-magical class can't have nice things is not very pleasant when you're a fan of them. Even totem barbs are magic.

This stuff just gets annoying after a while. Heck, warlock repelling blast doesn't have a save for its knockback. Sure max level wolf barb doesn't, except it does have a size restriction.

A warlock with repelling blast and four beams could send something with stats like the Tarrasque 40 feet back.

[CyberThread]

It seems they are comparing them to full casters. They get there biggest power boost from spells (ie new spell levels = more psi point). And on even numbered levels they'd get a new ability or ability score. Which is a bit weird because there 2nd discipline comes at level 2 so would count as a class feature, but they also get a class feature at 3. There increase in Psi maximum also comes at these levels cementing the comparison to full casters.

If I extrapolate the advancement they are making I end up with this across 20 levels:



LVL
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20


Psi Points
4
6
14
17
27
31
43
48
62
68
84
91
109
117
137
146
168
178
202
213


Added
0
2
8
3
10
4
12
5
14
6
16
7
18
8
20
9
22
10
24
11





Which I agree seems a bit high. Unless costs for powers also starts getting very high at those levels. It's a big question what will happen at levels 11+. If they are treated like full casters they should get some big gun epic level spells that are 1/day like a warlock or eat up huge amounts of psi points.


Feels like the old 3.5 psi system, while trying to also use the modern warlock system.

[Blackdrop]

(can someone explain the math? It goes to +2, +8, +3, +10. Am I seeing this right? And if so, why?)

It's the alternate Spell Point Progression from the DMG (page 288), Psi Point maximum is also derived from the same section; note the fact that Occluded Mind costs the same number of PP as Suggestion would cost in SP, same for Surge of Action and Haste.

[ThermalSlapShot]

I'm really liking the at-will base abilities that can have PP to upgrade them.

I'm liking the the abilities so far.

Seems a bit... Powerful... But really that just meansthey are balanced against the better classes.

I rather have a game full of good, powerful, and interesting classes than a Hodge Podge of good/powerful/interesting classes with bad/weak/mundane classes.

Edit

Also, hot dang, mystic can make a pretty cool Fighter. Hope to see the Lurk, Ardent, and Wilder.

[Scarab112]

I like it. The various powers and concentration harkens back to the old psionic attack and defense modes from earlier editions. I think it accomplishes making it distinct from standard casters by having those constant effects and having the other abilities stem from them.

[Citan]

Hi all :)

Sorry I didn't read in full details all posts, but it seems many share same kind of opinion as me on this peek on future Mystic class and Psionic powers.

Long story short, I love the basic mechanics commanding these psionic powers which will probably open many new possibilities. With that said...

As a multiclass partner, Mystic favors fighting based characters far more than spellcasters since it uses Concentration slot (unless we'd consider that Psionic Concentration and Arcane/Divine Concentration are two different things entirely, but I don't think it's the idea when reading).
Not necessarily a bad thing (you can still use it as a spellcaster if you focus on learning non-concentration spells), just a note.

Furthermore, current version is a playtest version and you feel it throughout. It's totally overpowered in every aspect, the psi points pool not being the last. My guess? They wanted to make a first shot with limited level-up so they boosted the number of PP per level. Or at least I hope so.

Some examples of things that would go wrong if left as is (extrapolating crudely PP and Psi Maximum for highest levels from current progression)...

1. Mind Thrust: lvl20 character able to send a psychic attack on hidden enemy for at least 17d8, PSYCHIC, against INT (low for many enemies), bypassing any cover, at least 10 times a day! Just ludicrous.
Well, with that said, I repeat that imo PM and PP are artificially augmented for the playtest, they probably will put more reasonable progression (like +3 PP per level, +1PM per two levels).

2. Conquering Mind: having advantage on CHA checks just by maintaining Concentration feels totally broken to me. Especially for any CHA-proficient character (read: party-face = mandatory dip in Mystic then break any challenge DM throws at him).

3. Third Eye: again, gaining Blindsight just by Concentration is far overpowered (well, just a slightly less powerful version of Darkness/Devil Sight combo would say some).

4. Psionic Regeneration: seems to me similar to Survivor from Champion, while better (available from lvl1, scalable. Seems still too much powerful for a passive ability.

5. Celerity: INIT advantage on concentration, cheap repeatable Action Surge not so much later.

5. Psionic Weapon: free Magic Weapon at lvl 1 onwards.

6. Strength of Mind seems to me OP as is: gaining a volatile proficiency in saving throws every short rest means mandatory dip in psionic for me: as efficient as resilient to ward against spells, with better flexibility!!! I love the principle but, while it pains the powergamer in me to say that, it really should be a >level10 ability at the very least imo.

TL;DR my opinion
a) Many interesting mechanics presented here. I personnaly like them at least. :)
b) In its current state, could be a fun and "reasonably overpowered" single-class as long as psionic points and psionic maximum progression is leveled (at least half as much as now).
c) In its current state, and not even considering the PP/PM progression, it's so much front-loaded that it would badly break balance in any game allowing multiclass.

[obryn]

Why Int score as AC instead of an Int save? Isn't that what an Int save is for?

[ThermalSlapShot]

Why Int score as AC instead of an Int save? Isn't that what an Int save is for?

This allows for a critical hit or automatic miss.

It puts the d20 in the hands of the player and that could be a primary ideology of the Psionic system.

Edit

Also in 3e UA there was rules for turning saves into defenses. This helped push for the 4e fort/ref/will defenses.

This is the 5e version of that.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/playersRollAllTheDice.htm

Int as AC is a bit... Easy but hey dumping Int is now quite dangerous lol

[pwykersotz]

This is a great style for Psionics. I got pretty tired of the 3.5 paradigm of "They're powers, which are like spells, but not, but with transparency they are!" The abilities as-are are pretty firmly overpowered, but as an early playtest class I'm loving it.

[Ralanr]

This allows for a critical hit or automatic miss.

It puts the d20 in the hands of the player and that could be a primary ideology of the Psionic system.

Edit

Also in 3e UA there was rules for turning saves into defenses. This helped push for the 4e fort/ref/will defenses.

This is the 5e version of that.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/playersRollAllTheDice.htm

Int as AC is a bit... Easy but hey dumping Int is now quite dangerous lol

Kinda weird that you could miss your target when mentally attacking someone. Fluff wise anyway.

Guess I'll try and never dump int if I'm in a pvp party. Or just not be in a pvp party.

[ruy343]

As pointed out previously, I think that it'll be OK, because the Mystic (Immortal) doesn't get a free bonus attack. A fighter getting action surge gets to make a both attacks again at level 5. That's an important distinction.

Let's see here... assuming that all attacks hit for average damage (and that both are wielding a longsword) with level 5 characters with:

Fighter (no specialty)
2 x (1d8 + abil) (x2 for action surge) every round

2 x (5) + STR + bonuses (dueling or GWM if not a longsword) (x2 if action surging) = 13 + (2 x STR) every round (26 + (4 x STR) if action surging once/short rest)

Mystic (Immortal)
(1d8 + abil) (x2 for 5 psi points) + 1d10 per psi point (max 5).

No Disciplines:
4.5 + STR every round

Celerity Discipline: (you have 27 psionics points, so you can fit that in 5x a day).
4.5 + STR (x2) 5x/day
(That means that 5 times per day, you may be on par with a fighter for one round. Good for you! Although, bear in mind that actions can be used for other things besides attacking, like dashing or dodging)

Psionic Weapon 5x/day (again, 5 points needed of your 27).
4.5 + STR + 5d10 = 32 + STR
(you may make this a dex-save-to-hit for another point, and the opponent would still take half damage if they succeed)

(NOTE: You MAY NOT switch disciplines mid-attack because doing so would require a bonus action to change concentration; you must use one or the other prior to attacking. If you're using the celerity discipline for awesome reaction-attacking, you may NOT use the Psionic weapon discipline at the same time. That means that you cannot use Celerity to get a bonus attack, then switch to psionic weapon for the uber damage. At least, that's how I read it and would adjudicate it as a DM.)

This means that the Immortal can do big bursts of damage that exceed/are on par with a fighter, but a fighter can consistently deal more damage round-to-round. Additionally, it points out a current problem with the Psionic Weapon discipline: although it doesn't help with speed or initiative, you can deal a significantly higher amount of damage with it. Perhaps more points should be spent to get the 5d10 dmg? At higher levels, they'll get to use it more often, but a fighter wouldn't get extra attacks often enough to compensate, I fear.

Also, getting great weapon master (-5 to hit, +10 dmg) could be problematic with the ethereal blade perk, as was previously pointed out. Especially with great weapon specialization of a fighter multiclass (rerolling 1s and 2s).

Finally, the fact that the immortal doesn't ever fail their concentration checks makes them a really great fighter multiclass. I worry about multiclassing...

[ThermalSlapShot]

Kinda weird that you could miss your target when mentally attacking someone. Fluff wise anyway.

Guess I'll try and never dump int if I'm in a pvp party. Or just not be in a pvp party.

Ever try doing something when a hot woman/man is on your mind? Or perhaps your relative had an epic beer fart and you are remembering it...

Plenty of reasons for rolling a 1.

[Ralanr]

Ever try doing something when a hot woman/man is on your mind? Or perhaps your relative had an epic beer fart and you are remembering it...

Plenty of reasons for rolling a 1.

True, would be pretty embarrassing if masters of their own mind failed to hurt someone mentally due to being distracted. Having ADHD with this class (in character. Not OC) would be a kick in the teeth.

Interesting abilities and I do love the discipline idea. Invocations are my favorite aspect in warlock when I dabble in them.

Personal feelings about martials possibly getting put in the dust without multiclassing into something magical/supernatural aside, the way the classes are set up with their customization looks welcomed. Hopefully wizards will balance it better as they finalize it.

Other note: I'm AFB right now and it's been running around in my head. Could a psionic discipline be used during rage? I'm leaning towards yes because it's not spellcasting

[Palorin]

Other note: I'm AFB right now and it's been running around in my head. Could a psionic discipline be used during rage? I'm leaning towards yes because it's not spellcasting

No they cannot. When you rage, you cannot concentrate on spells either, meaning you can't benefit from Haste. So I would rule that you cannot concentrate on psionics either.

[Ralanr]

No they cannot. When you rage, you cannot concentrate on spells either, meaning you can't benefit from Haste. So I would rule that you cannot concentrate on psionics either.

Well that sucks. Takes some joy out of that multiclass.

Edit: my main reasoning being that they aren't spells and don't function the same way.

[ThermalSlapShot]

Personal feelings about martials possibly getting put in the dust without multiclassing into something magical/supernatural aside, the way the classes are set up with their customization looks welcomed. Hopefully wizards will balance it better as they finalize it.
I really think wotc is trying to push the game in a way in which martials don't exist.

If you make all the cool classes not martial then eventually people won't miss the martial classes when they are gone.


No they cannot. When you rage, you cannot concentrate on spells either, meaning you can't benefit from Haste. So I would rule that you cannot concentrate on psionics either.

Psionics are not Spells. Depending on how it is worded... They could rage + Psionic.

[Ralanr]

I really think wotc is trying to push the game in a way in which martials don't exist.

If you make all the cool classes not martial then eventually people won't miss the martial classes when they are gone.

We are in disagreement on what defines a cool class.

But I've argued with you enough on this. You want a game where the only way you matter is to have some special ability that's supernatural, magical or just not normal? Fine.

I'd just rather not play a game with that message. I don't need more fuel for my cynicism/pessimism.

[Blackdrop]

Psionics are not Spells...

True, but:


...Concentrating on a discipline uses the same rules as concentrating on a spell. Among other things, this means that a mystic can maintain concentration only on one discipline at a time, and that any effect that causes a mystic to lose concentration causes the discipline to end....

With that in mind, I'd say raging precludes concentrating on a discipline.

[ThermalSlapShot]

True, but:



With that in mind, I'd say raging precludes concentrating on a discipline.

It depends on the way the is worded. I'm AFB rigt now but if it says "concentrate" then you are right. If it says "concentrate on spells" then they can concentrate on disciplines.

Intent? Probably not. Though raging mind thrust is too good to pass up.

[Ralanr]

It depends on the way the is worded. I'm AFB rigt now but if it says "concentrate" then you are right. If it says "concentrate on spells" then they can concentrate on disciplines.

Intent? Probably not. Though raging mind thrust is too good to pass up.

I don't think that'd be anything other than flavorful. Immortal warrior on the otherhand makes the barbarian or just anyone with rage, a straight up monster in combat.

[ThermalSlapShot]

I don't think that'd be anything other than flavorful. Immortal warrior on the otherhand makes the barbarian or just anyone with rage, a straight up monster in combat.

Well that's to be expected when you shove 20 levels of martials into 5 levels of Psionics class.

[Ralanr]

Well that's to be expected when you shove 20 levels of martials into 5 levels of Psionics class.

:smallannoyed: :smallsigh:

Yep. Cause screw martials right?

[Z3ro]

It depends on the way the is worded. I'm AFB rigt now but if it says "concentrate" then you are right. If it says "concentrate on spells" then they can concentrate on disciplines.

Intent? Probably not. Though raging mind thrust is too good to pass up.

Just checked and its clearly "concentrate on spells". Not even the vaguer wording of 3.5 including any mentally demanding task, just a mention of spells. So rage/psionics is totally cool!

[Hawkstar]

Yes, but at max a level 17 fighter can do action surge twice in combat and they have to be after each other.
Umm... what?

[Ralanr]

Umm... what?

Doesn't level 17 action surge need to be consecutive? Sorry if I worded that weird.

[ThermalSlapShot]

:smallannoyed: :smallsigh:

Yep. Cause screw martials right?

If the shoe fits. Blame wotc for their bias not the people who recognize it.


Just checked and its clearly "concentrate on spells". Not even the vaguer wording of 3.5 including any mentally demanding task, just a mention of spells. So rage/psionics is totally cool!

Nice.

Now to MC Mystic/Barbarian or make a Mystic Primal Path... Primal Path Homebrew could be made so rage bonus damage and reckless attack works with Mind Thrust...

[SharkForce]

bear in mind, this is only the first 5 levels.

immortal doesn't have an extra attack at level 5, that doesn't mean it won't have an extra attack at level 6 or something like that.

also, i can't agree that the point scaling is off. the points are fine. there's nothing unbalanced about spending the equivalent of a 9th level spell to do 17d8 (or thereabouts) damage to a single target. in fact, if i'm going to be blunt, that sounds like an incredibly bad use of your resources. the OP parts are the parts that come free of charge; ignores cover, targets intelligence instead of AC, doesn't require line of sight. all that comes with no cost in psi-points whatsoever, and has far more to do with why the ability is a problem. when you can relatively easily create a nigh-impenetrable stronghold, it doesn't much matter whether you're doing 1d8 per action or 15d8. it matters that you can attack them with ease, and they have basically no way to retaliate, therefore you are going to win eventually.

same with the suggestion thing. the cost of the ability is not the problem. the problem is that you can make them believe *anything* at all, no matter how silly, on a save that very few people/monsters/etc have a high value in, completely bypassing magical immunity and resistance, and completely bypassing immunity to charm effects and similar. the problem is not that the ability costs 3 points, the problem is that the ability can do just about anything given a bit of creativity from the person using it, and works on just about anything right now.

the class has balance problems, certainly. the amount of psi-points is not one of them.

one thing i dislike that is not a power concern, just an annoying thing to me: medium armour proficiency with no shield proficiency means they're kinda screwed if they ever want to get shield proficiency with a feat.

[Ralanr]

I don't this wizards has any idea what they want to do with mind control stuff in this edition.

[ThermalSlapShot]

bear in mind, this is only the first 5 levels.

immortal doesn't have an extra attack at level 5, that doesn't mean it won't have an extra attack at level 6 or something like that.

also, i can't agree that the point scaling is off. the points are fine. there's nothing unbalanced about spending the equivalent of a 9th level spell to do 17d8 (or thereabouts) damage to a single target. in fact, if i'm going to be blunt, that sounds like an incredibly bad use of your resources. the OP parts are the parts that come free of charge; ignores cover, targets intelligence instead of AC, doesn't require line of sight. all that comes with no cost in psi-points whatsoever, and has far more to do with why the ability is a problem. when you can relatively easily create a nigh-impenetrable stronghold, it doesn't much matter whether you're doing 1d8 per action or 15d8. it matters that you can attack them with ease, and they have basically no way to retaliate, therefore you are going to win eventually.

same with the suggestion thing. the cost of the ability is not the problem. the problem is that you can make them believe *anything* at all, no matter how silly, on a save that very few people/monsters/etc have a high value in, completely bypassing magical immunity and resistance, and completely bypassing immunity to charm effects and similar. the problem is not that the ability costs 3 points, the problem is that the ability can do just about anything given a bit of creativity from the person using it, and works on just about anything right now.

the class has balance problems, certainly. the amount of psi-points is not one of them.

one thing i dislike that is not a power concern, just an annoying thing to me: medium armour proficiency with no shield proficiency means they're kinda screwed if they ever want to get shield proficiency with a feat.

I'm not really sure they need extra attack, Mystic (Immortal) seems to be built more like the Rogue/Paladin as their NOVA damage comes from burst damage on a hit.

Greatsword: 2d6 + 1 + Str (3) + 5d10 = 38.5
GWM Feat (-5/+10) (use when you have advantage and bless on you for maximum awesomeness, like any GWM would.)

48.5 slashing damage. This is magic damage and thus ignores resistances and immunity to non-magic weapons (something martials can't do unless the DM gives them a hand out magic weapon).

You won't use this option all the time, but when you need it at level 5 you could easily pull this off 5 times in a row against a creature. Expending all your resources at level 5 to pull off 242.5 damage (magical) isn't bad when it takes out the boss.

Granted you probably won't need to use all 5 rounds for this but hey, for the fun of it.

Celerity/Iron Durability until you get to the boss and then go into Psionic Weapon...

I'm not sure if giving the Mystic extra attack is needed. When you need to do damage you can do damage. The rogue doesn't need extra attack.

edited


I don't this wizards has any idea what they want to do with mind control stuff in this edition.

What? :smallconfused:

Edited Again

It bugs me that at first level a Mystic can grab at-will Blindsight 30' but a Rogue at level 14 has a more limited version (must be able to hear, perception check) wit a radius of 10'.

I mean... Seriously? I know that the Mystic is in "playtest" but come on :smallsigh:

[Ralanr]

What? :smallconfused:

People keep bringing up how things like dominate and charmed aren't that good, then argue abilities that basically seem to be those in all but name.

I don't know, it gets confusing after a while.


It bugs me that at first level a Mystic can grab at-will Blindsight 30' but a Rogue at level 14 has a more limited version (must be able to hear, perception check) wit a radius of 10'.

I mean... Seriously? I know that the Mystic is in "playtest" but come on :smallsigh:

You mean the mundane rogue? That bothers you? :smallconfused:

[MeeposFire]

Mystic was the old name for the D&D monk class. Interestingly enough at several times between D&D and AD&D the monk classes have been at varying levels of interactions with psionics (such as the AD&D monk rewrite having acess to some psionic abilities to most recently with the 4e monk being a psionic class). So this may make more sense than you think historically.

[ThermalSlapShot]

People keep bringing up how things like dominate and charmed aren't that good, then argue abilities that basically seem to be those in all but name.

I don't know, it gets confusing after a while.



You mean the mundane rogue? That bothers you? :smallconfused:

The sentence that you put together didn't really work the way you put it together. I had no clue what you was even referring to.

The rogue, up to level 10 is pretty awesome. Even makes a better fighter than the fighter.

However their level 14 ability show how limited wotc likes their martials. A level 1 psionic at-will ability has more freedom and range than a level 14 martial ability.

They couldn't be showing their bias any more if they came out and said it themselves in a multitude of tweets, newspaper articles, blogs, and many other outlets.


Mystic was the old name for the D&D monk class. Interestingly enough at several times between D&D and AD&D the monk classes have been at varying levels of interactions with psionics (such as the AD&D monk rewrite having acess to some psionic abilities to most recently with the 4e monk being a psionic class). So this may make more sense than you think historically.

For me, this mystic isn't the replacement for the Psion, but actually their partial martial psionic. Since the monk is no longer psionic (which, why aren't they?) they needed something to replace it. They could have called this the psionic warrior but that class name is too long lol.

[CNagy]

I consider this proof that WotC now understands just how weak the Rogue 14th level class feature is, as well as the Champion's regeneration. Rogues don't even get blindsight, they get blindsense--it doesn't let you "see," but rather determine the location of creatures. Within 10'. Which you could probably do with a sufficient Perception roll--which if you are like any Rogue I've ever seen is one of your chosen skills and thus you can't roll lower than a 15 by the time you get Blindsense. 20 if you've decided to put Expertise in Perception. 25 (passive) if you also happen to have Observant. Blindsense is clearly a wonderful class feature.

And the Champion's Survivor class feature? It is at its most powerful only if you choose to forego some feats to max out your Constitution, and then it is only 10hp at the start of your turn if you are at half hit points or less. At the level you get it, the creatures considered dangerous that you are fighting means this might give you an extra round if things start to go south. Maybe, if you are lucky, 2 rounds. Or none. Even in the CR13 range you are already encountering creatures that can hit for 30-35 damage a pop, some of them multiple times. Healing is better than not healing, but healing 1/2 of class level for level 3 (so no reliance on spending your ASIs) and saving something suitably awesome for level 18 is much, much better.

[Ralanr]

The sentence that you put together didn't really work the way you put it together. I had no clue what you was even referring to.

The rogue, up to level 10 is pretty awesome. Even makes a better fighter than the fighter.



I've been bad at words lately. I've had a long day sorry.

Can you explain what you mean by that? Give examples? Cause honestly I'm not seeing how the guy who can only attack once and who's best damage output is sneak attack is better at being a fighter than the fighter.

Edit: IF WoTC was fixing or trying to fix mistakes they made with abilities, they I'd gladly point them to the berserker barbarian path. Exhaustion after hitting with your bonus action everytime? Just being immune to charms and fear while in rage (Personally with a thing called mindless rage, I think it'd function a lot like Thought Shield in GOO warlocks) a fear that scales off an unlikely used stat, requires an action to use, and only targets one creature? It's capstone ability that is pretty much punching the guy who hit you, right in his face right after he did it. With the barbarian playstyle, that's a very good ability. Everything else seems poor (Frenzy is really only ruined by the exhaustion though).

[DireSickFish]

I've been bad at words lately. I've had a long day sorry.

Can you explain what you mean by that? Give examples? Cause honestly I'm not seeing how the guy who can only attack once and who's best damage output is sneak attack is better at being a fighter than the fighter.

Could you make another post about that instead of posting it here? Cuts down on clutter and takes away from talking about the Mystic class, as I imagine there will be differing opinions on that topic.

I'm glad someone pointed out how it is following the Spell Point variant on page 288 of the DMG, I haven't read much of the DMG yet. It means they already have a good bases for what an effect should cost and a standard to follow.

The order of Immortal looks like it can safely dump Int actually. The only ability that relies on it is the one to turn your attack into a dex save. It's a good ability for variety of attacks but means you can't crit, and critting is going to be really -really- good with Augmented weapon.

I was more drawn to the Immortal as it sits, seems like the 5 levels presented would work better in a fully built level 20 character. The Awakend on the other hand I'd have a hard time multi-classing with as all of its abilities are tied in with needing more power points and wouldn't augment many other class abilities.

[Ralanr]

Could you make another post about that instead of posting it here? Cuts down on clutter and takes away from talking about the Mystic class, as I imagine there will be differing opinions on that topic.

I'm glad someone pointed out how it is following the Spell Point variant on page 288 of the DMG, I haven't read much of the DMG yet. It means they already have a good bases for what an effect should cost and a standard to follow.

The order of Immortal looks like it can safely dump Int actually. The only ability that relies on it is the one to turn your attack into a dex save. It's a good ability for variety of attacks but means you can't crit, and critting is going to be really -really- good with Augmented weapon.

I was more drawn to the Immortal as it sits, seems like the 5 levels presented would work better in a fully built level 20 character. The Awakend on the other hand I'd have a hard time multi-classing with as all of its abilities are tied in with needing more power points and wouldn't augment many other class abilities.

Sorry about that.

I don't own the DMG, so this spell points concept is pretty interesting.

I've found that to be the case with most classes that use a point system, which is really just the Sorcerer and Monk. Sure the Sorcerer can generate his points again by breaking down spell slots (Though it's not an even return. That was probably intended to make it less abusable. But I don't know much about sorcerer balance). It was the monk that I noticed had the biggest difficulty multiclassing, mainly if you're elemental monk (which probably doesn't multiclass much). The ki points scale with the monk level, so taking levels in other classes hurts the monk more than multiclassing usually does.

I've also noticed that there are not many things with synergy for barbarian rage. Ok that's not true, fighters and monks can work pretty well. But that's mainly why I was wondering on rage and psionic concentration. If that synergy could work, then awakened (cause immortal has no chance to lose concentration in combat. I'm not sure how else they'd lose it) concentration DC would be higher than 10 much more rarely than any other class.

Edit: Looking at immortal, I find it odd that the class has two regeneration abilities. One is passive, only better than the champion fighter 18th level ability on the fact that it gives 10 HP without needing your con maxed up. But that's only if you hit level cap of 20. Since the cap is about 5, it's about 2 or 3 points that can't be increased except by having a higher mystic level. Then we have one that's using your action to roll a hit die and using your con mod to heal yourself. So one suggests having a good con mod, while the other passively heals you no matter what if you meet the requirements. Kinda feels odd that they give two, though one has the chance to give more and can be used any time.

Celerity, making wood elves as fast as most barbs and copying their level 7 ability.
The second ability feels a little odd for me. If you're surprised you can spend 1 point to not be surprised. I feel being surprised means that you're too surprised to think, "Oh crap! I need to do something." Though people could argue the same with barbarian rage. Feral instinct is just entering rage, which considering the number of rages you have per day if you're not capped, would be pretty bad to use up on the wrong situation. Though I'm not sure how often surprise parties happen.
The next ability seems like a great reason to dumb dex.
I'm not sure why the fourth ability doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, it's just 30 feet movement. That's not really fast, fast is cunning action dashing. This is basically paying to use disengage and pretending to have not used your movement. Nevermind! You're increasing it. So you pay 1 point to get dash and disengage in one go? Considering how the points seem to build up, I'm not sure why that should stay as is. That just feels really powerful.
I still don't think they should get access to action surge, even with the payment. But I've said that enough,

Celerity seems a bit too powerful. Sure you can only concentrate on one thing at a time and it's only a mobility power. But you switch them on bonus actions. Switching from this to the psionic weapon one wouldn't be an issue since that one has no bonus action abilities.

Dex save to dodge a melee attack. I got nothing, I'm neutral on that for now.

Swapping from the offensive one to the defensive one seems like it should happen a lot. Heck that's pretty much the basic strategy right there.

This class could not use two-weapon fighting, GWM, or polearm master. It needs it's bonus actions, any feat that uses those are detrimental to it.

[ThermalSlapShot]

I've been bad at words lately. I've had a long day sorry.

Can you explain what you mean by that? Give examples? Cause honestly I'm not seeing how the guy who can only attack once and who's best damage output is sneak attack is better at being a fighter than the fighter.

Edit: IF WoTC was fixing or trying to fix mistakes they made with abilities, they I'd gladly point them to the berserker barbarian path. Exhaustion after hitting with your bonus action everytime? Just being immune to charms and fear while in rage (Personally with a thing called mindless rage, I think it'd function a lot like Thought Shield in GOO warlocks) a fear that scales off an unlikely used stat, requires an action to use, and only targets one creature? It's capstone ability that is pretty much punching the guy who hit you, right in his face right after he did it. With the barbarian playstyle, that's a very good ability. Everything else seems poor (Frenzy is really only ruined by the exhaustion though).

I saw a build for the rogue that I ended up playing.

Variant Human (Medium Armor Prof Feat) Rogue
Str 16/Con/Wis or Int
Dex is at a 14 and never goes above 14
My ability scores (AL game, level 5): Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis, 10, Cha 10
You get an 18 AC as soon as you can get some medium armor and a shield.
Shield and Rapier Style
Level 4 you pick up +2 Str OR Shield Master (I went shield master)
Expertise in Athletics blows away anything the Fighter can do with athletics.
Expertise in Perception or Investigation allows for the Rogue to have a low Int or Wis and still be decent at finding things.
You don't need a maxed out Str to be good. You can BA *Shove, Prone* (double prof) then get advantage on your attack. Then you can max out str at a later level (level 8 and 10)

You can maneuver through the battlefield (BA disengage and dash)

You can take half damage on an attack, fluff it as defending yourself with your shield.

Arcane Trickster makes a good fighter that uses after images. Mirror Image is great for a samurai or speed based fighter.

The Rogue is all around better at being a Fighter than the Fighter. And if you just *must* have Str and Con saves then multiclassing Fighter 1/Rogue 19 works fine.

Fluff sneak attack as Power Attack/Combat Expertise/Power Shot/Power Throw or whatever else you need to.

Going Thief gives the rogue a bonus action healing kit use that is better than Second Wind as you can heal others with it too.

But I can reliably get off a 1d8 + 3 + 3d6 (Average = 18 P, unoptimized for damage) attack each round I want to all the while being able to slow down an enemy. Also my OA is scarier than the normal fighter.

The Rogue, before level 11, is pretty awesome and can take over for the Fighter.

Sadly once they hit level 10 they stop growing at a proper rate :smallannoyed:

===
First off if they want to fix mistakes then they need to fix the classes with the problems, not add more classes that fix the problems for themselves but not for the classes that have a problem. Of course this just shows that the classes were in fact a problem in the first place and the classes that have these problems happen to be of a specific type.

[MeeposFire]

Is it weird that this class appears to not have a level 2 ability (Unless I missed it)?


One thing I have noticed in most (or all) classes is that level 2 seems to get you something special to the class, think action surge, ki, cunning action, smite, etc but this class does not (at least yet).

[Ralanr]

Is it weird that this class appears to not have a level 2 ability (Unless I missed it)?


One thing I have noticed in most (or all) classes is that level 2 seems to get you something special to the class, think action surge, ki, cunning action, smite, etc but this class does not (at least yet).

Didn't notice that before. Probably because most of the abilities are frontlined. Heck the immortal's ability to not lose concentration due to damage seems like a level 14 ability to me.

[MeeposFire]

Didn't notice that before. Probably because most of the abilities are frontlined. Heck the immortal's ability to not lose concentration due to damage seems like a level 14 ability to me.

This would seem to be a design change to me since the 2nd level ability seemed so ubiquitous before. For instance making a sexy level 2 ability is a way to force a person to choose between it and that last ASI in a multiclass character (and why I think level 19 is the last ASI rather than 20 which would seem to make more sense by the pattern).

[ThermalSlapShot]

Is it weird that this class appears to not have a level 2 ability (Unless I missed it)?


One thing I have noticed in most (or all) classes is that level 2 seems to get you something special to the class, think action surge, ki, cunning action, smite, etc but this class does not (at least yet).

At second level and fifth level the Mystic gains one additional discipline known.

They don't need anything else for those levels as disciplines are pretty awesome, even their basic abilities.

[Ralanr]

This would seem to be a design change to me since the 2nd level ability seemed so ubiquitous before. For instance making a sexy level 2 ability is a way to force a person to choose between it and that last ASI in a multiclass character (and why I think level 19 is the last ASI rather than 20 which would seem to make more sense by the pattern).

If it was 20, then when you we get a capstone ability? :smalltongue:

Your logic is sound. I haven't thought much into that since my group houserules ASI's function like proficiency. Since everyone gets them at the same level, why not make them based on character level? The obvious exception of course being the extra ASI's that Fighter and Rogue get, which are considered class features.

[MeeposFire]

At second level and fifth level the Mystic gains one additional discipline known.

They don't need anything else for those levels as disciplines are pretty awesome, even their basic abilities.

That would still be a departure from the previous design paradigm Every other class gets a unique ability at level 2 that they never had before and it is usually pretty good or class defining.



I am not saying it is bad just that it is different from what we had before.

[MeeposFire]

If it was 20, then when you we get a capstone ability? :smalltongue:

Your logic is sound. I haven't thought much into that since my group houserules ASI's function like proficiency. Since everyone gets them at the same level, why not make them based on character level? The obvious exception of course being the extra ASI's that Fighter and Rogue get, which are considered class features.

Te reason they are not based on character level is essentially the same reason that I mention about level 2 abilities and having the ASI at level 19...it makes you have to make more difficult choices.

Having to choose between an ASI or some random class abilities that you could have is a major and effective choice for your character especially for the more mad classes or classes that want more feats.

[Ralanr]

Te reason they are not based on character level is essentially the same reason that I mention about level 2 abilities and having the ASI at level 19...it makes you have to make more difficult choices.

Having to choose between an ASI or some random class abilities that you could have is a major and effective choice for your character especially for the more mad classes or classes that want more feats.

My group kinda decided this off the back without me even knowing. I've just rolling with it. Plus you still end up losing access to your capstone (which sucks for some, not so much for others) and certain other abilities that are brought out near the cap.

Not saying I disagree with you. Some people in my group tend to be pretty vocal about the dislike of certain decisions (such as getting to choose your saves when you multiclass into a class.) and even giving everyone expertise if they have two permanent sources of the skill (Though this leads to less skills, which seems like an even trade).

I don't follow the same houserules in a roll20 campaign I'm in. Still trying to figure out if I should max Str or Cha (Fiend Blade warlock with planned barb levels), maxing out both ends my possibility for a weapon feat.

[CyberThread]

Also remember, this is unusually feature rich. The only class that gets this many options or decisions to make is usually the warlock in this small space of 5 levels. So if you think this is much, just wait until they have to fill up the other 15 levels of things.



I don't think we are seeing a sneak peak at something near finished with worry of balance. I think we are seeing something that is still a rough sketch with no thought towards balance yet.

[MeeposFire]

Also remember, this is unusually feature rich. The only class that gets this many options or decisions to make is usually the warlock in this small space of 5 levels. So if you think this is much, just wait until they have to fill up the other 15 levels of things.



I don't think we are seeing a sneak peak at something near finished with worry of balance. I think we are seeing something that is still a rough sketch with no thought towards balance yet.

Funny enough warlocks are a good example of the old paradigm where there are a lot of abilities to choose from but at 2nd level you get one of your iconic abilities in invocations.

[Ralanr]

Incidentally the warlock similarities are what I like most about this subclass. The the amount of options available, it's not likely that people will pick the same abilities. Some might even pick unoptimized abilities because they seem fun.

And fun is important when playing a game.

[Nicrosil]

I'm going to be optimistic and assume that this is a very rough sketch of psionics; showing key ideas and refining the math and balance later. Assuming that, how do we balance this? As many pointed out, it's getting high tier abilities and even capstones at 5th level!

I think a quick and dirty way to make this playable for 20 levels is spread out the discipline abilities and seriously tone them down, then fill in the gaps with spells. Kind of like a cleric, where you get special domain/discipline abilities every few levels, but also have spell progression (using the DMG spell point system to kind of keep the flavor.)

Maybe we could rework the discipline concentration system from the ground up. Make Mystics only able to switch disciplines during short rests, and give them something similar to Arcane Spell Failure of 3.5 instead keeping concentration. I'm just spitballing here; someone with better homebrewing skills and knowledge of 5e give some input here?

[SharkForce]

Maybe we could rework the discipline concentration system from the ground up. Make Mystics only able to switch disciplines during short rests, and give them something similar to Arcane Spell Failure of 3.5 instead keeping concentration. I'm just spitballing here; someone with better homebrewing skills and knowledge of 5e give some input here?

in much the same way i have mentioned this with campaign settings, i would say that the key with doing psionics is to make it feel as much like old psionics as possible. it should evoke fond memories, and if it doesn't, then why are you throwing away precious nostalgia? you either worked your butt off or paid in spades pretty much specifically so you could own this stuff, and this is an industry where you're at a serious risk of people just making their own thing (or possibly even other companies publishing stuff compatible with your core rules, which for example happened in 4th edition when a few publishers decided they disliked the GSL strongly enough to just make product without it).

particularly when you've invested a lot of time and effort into drawing in people who have been playing out-of-print editions of D&D for in some cases decades. if you think those people aren't willing or able to homebrew what they want after decades of no new content, well, i've got a bridge i'd like to sell you...

edit: point being, the limitations shouldn't be things that have never existed in D&D psionics, like arcane spell failure for psionics, or having to spend an hour to be able to change what they can do.

[rollingForInit]

Just checked and its clearly "concentrate on spells". Not even the vaguer wording of 3.5 including any mentally demanding task, just a mention of spells. So rage/psionics is totally cool!

And the UA says that concentrating on Psionics follows the same rules as concentrating on spells. Feels very much like the intent is that anything that breaks concentration on a spell breaks concentration on a discipline, because ... well, concentration is concentration. It'd make things messier if you suddenly had two separate forms of concentration, that sometimes overlap and sometimes don't. Having one concentration that works in the same way no matter if it's spells/Psionics feels more streamlined, which is pretty much what 5e is about.


I don't think that'd be anything other than flavorful. Immortal warrior on the otherhand makes the barbarian or just anyone with rage, a straight up monster in combat.

But if Discipline concentration breaks whenever a spell concentration would, an Immortal wouldn't be able to rage and maintain concentration. Immortals would lose concentration for any reason that a spell would, except for damage. Which then would include Rage, since that isn't caused by damage.

[Ralanr]

And the UA says that concentrating on Psionics follows the same rules as concentrating on spells. Feels very much like the intent is that anything that breaks concentration on a spell breaks concentration on a discipline, because ... well, concentration is concentration. It'd make things messier if you suddenly had two separate forms of concentration, that sometimes overlap and sometimes don't. Having one concentration that works in the same way no matter if it's spells/Psionics feels more streamlined, which is pretty much what 5e is about.



But if Discipline concentration breaks whenever a spell concentration would, an Immortal wouldn't be able to rage and maintain concentration. Immortals would lose concentration for any reason that a spell would, except for damage. Which then would include Rage, since that isn't caused by damage.

Considering disciplines use the bonus action, I realized that barbarians can't use rage and psionic concentration at the same time.

So not much multiclassing synergy for barbarian here, kinda sucks but that's life.

Edit: I do hope that the next supplement will feature more subclasses, including a new barbarian one. Totem got boring and exhaustion doesn't look enjoyable.

[SharkForce]

starting concentration on a discipline uses a bonus action.

maintaining concentration requires no action.

(that said, i would say that the intent is most likely that barbarians should not be able to concentrate on disciplines while raging, but the rules text does presently allow it. whether or not you think it is intended to allow for rage and psionics to be combined is not something i can tell you, naturally).

[rollingForInit]

(that said, i would say that the intent is most likely that barbarians should not be able to concentrate on disciplines while raging, but the rules text does presently allow it. whether or not you think it is intended to allow for rage and psionics to be combined is not something i can tell you, naturally).

I would maintain that the rules currently do not allow it. Because the psionic concentration states that it follows the same rules as spells. And Rage breaks concentration on spells. Therefore, rage also breaks concentration on disciplines (since they follow the same rules as spells when it comes to concentration).

[SharkForce]

I would maintain that the rules currently do not allow it. Because the psionic concentration states that it follows the same rules as spells. And Rage breaks concentration on spells. Therefore, rage also breaks concentration on disciplines (since they follow the same rules as spells when it comes to concentration).

uses the same rules, yes. but we also know that:

"In general, an effect that alters or affects a spell has no effect on a psionic effect."

i would be disinclined to describe the rage ability as a rule about concentration, so much as it is a rule about raging that alters or affects spells. if it was a rule about concentration, it would be in the concentration section of the PHB, DMG, or wherever, not in the rage ability description of the barbarian class.

like i said, i think it shouldn't work. i even think that if we could walk right up to the people who write the rules and ask them directly, they would say it isn't supposed to work. in games where i DM, it won't work (mostly because i consider the flavour to not fit, rather than actual balance concerns). but as far as what the rules currently *say* (whether i agree with them or not), i'd say it does in fact work.

which is fine, this whole document is basically full of problems, and barbarians raging while concentrating on psionic disciplines is the least of my concerns. i am far less worried about barbarians that can rage than i am about, say, a mystic that has a wizard friend who can arcane lock a door while the mystic object reads it into a video camera that he can use to fire invisible potshots at the enemies behind the door who may very well be unable to break the door down ever even if they find out where the attacks are coming from. or the ritual caster mystic who sets up leomund's tiny hut in the middle of a dungeon after dropping a few sensor-rocks around various areas (possibly with the help of a scout in the party) and then proceeds to force all enemies within a 120 foot radius to leave or be slowly plinked to death while the mystic hangs out in his impenetrable magical fortress-tent of doom (remember, leomund's tiny hut prevents spells from passing through, but psionics are not spells).

[rollingForInit]

uses the same rules, yes. but we also know that:

"In general, an effect that alters or affects a spell has no effect on a psionic effect."

i would be disinclined to describe the rage ability as a rule about concentration, so much as it is a rule about raging that alters or affects spells. if it was a rule about concentration, it would be in the concentration section of the PHB, DMG, or wherever, not in the rage ability description of the barbarian class.

like i said, i think it shouldn't work. i even think that if we could walk right up to the people who write the rules and ask them directly, they would say it isn't supposed to work. in games where i DM, it won't work (mostly because i consider the flavour to not fit, rather than actual balance concerns). but as far as what the rules currently *say* (whether i agree with them or not), i'd say it does in fact work.

which is fine, this whole document is basically full of problems, and barbarians raging while concentrating on psionic disciplines is the least of my concerns. i am far less worried about barbarians that can rage than i am about, say, a mystic that has a wizard friend who can arcane lock a door while the mystic object reads it into a video camera that he can use to fire invisible potshots at the enemies behind the door who may very well be unable to break the door down ever even if they find out where the attacks are coming from. or the ritual caster mystic who sets up leomund's tiny hut in the middle of a dungeon after dropping a few sensor-rocks around various areas (possibly with the help of a scout in the party) and then proceeds to force all enemies within a 120 foot radius to leave or be slowly plinked to death while the mystic hangs out in his impenetrable magical fortress-tent of doom (remember, leomund's tiny hut prevents spells from passing through, but psionics are not spells).

Concentration is not a spell effect, or a psionic effect. Concentration is just concentration. Spell effects are things caused by spells. Psionic effects would be things caused by disciplines or powers.

[Kryx]

the OP parts are the parts that come free of charge; ignores cover, targets intelligence instead of AC, doesn't require line of sight.
I really hope they scrap targeting intelligence instead of AC. It will be like touch attacks from 3.X all over where the chance to hit is 95%. No thanks! Hopefully it is changed to a save (as it should be).

[PhantomRenegade]

Obligatory +1 saltyness post complaining that they still haven't fixed the beastmaster.

[PoeticDwarf]

He is OP because he can do many d8 damage against int, so 3 AC for the Terrasque if I'm right.
He is OP because he walks around with a wisdom and a constitution (or dexterity) save.
And because I don't see his weakness, because there aren't many high int characters.

[ThermalSlapShot]

He is OP because he can do many d8 damage against int, so 3 AC for the Terrasque if I'm right.
He is OP because he walks around with a wisdom and a constitution (or dexterity) save.
And because I don't see his weakness, because there aren't many high int characters.

First off, the big T has been a joke for a long time now and this *target Int* doesn't make it any more of a joke. Low-Mid level flying archers have always been able to damage the hell out of the big T.

1 Feat can give the Fighter Str + Con + Wis save prof... Does that make them OP? No. The Mystic isn't wisdom based and will want a good Str/Dex, Con, and Int. Wisdom isn't a high priority for the class. You might be on to something if the class was a Wis based caster though.

This class is OP but not for the reasons you described. So far it is on level with the cleric. Able to be built to do anything and can effectively outshine others without trying.

Not that being OP is a bad thing. I rather see an OP class than a pathetically weak class. As a DM it is easier to say "X from this class is banned" than "here is my fix for X class". A lot less work and hassle. Plus as a DM (or player) having a strong base for a class like the cleric lowers the chance of needing to hold players hands when things go down and when issues arrive the player feels like the problem is not because the mechanics are against them but because they did something wrong.

Like playing a videogame, anytime you mess up it should feel like your fault and not that the developers designed the game poorly. Like if Mario randomly didn't jump when you pushed the jump button because the program was crappy... You failing a level isn't your fault and that gets old/frustrating very very fast.

[Socko525]

Doesn't level 17 action surge need to be consecutive? Sorry if I worded that weird.

"Starting at 17th level, you can use it twice before a rest, but only once on the same turn." (pg. 72)

It doesn't say anything about having to be used consecutively.

Also I think I saw someone say something about Action Surge using a bonus action to activate, which isn't true.

"On your turn, you can take one additional action on top of your regular action and a possible bonus action." (pg 72).

[DireSickFish]

What do you guys think the prerequisite to multiclass into Mystic is? Int 13? None at this time so it can be tested and Int 13 when it comes out?

Looks like they should get Light armor and simple weapon proficiency from multiclassing at least, should they still get medium armor proficiency?

[Hawkstar]

I really hope they scrap targeting intelligence instead of AC. It will be like touch attacks from 3.X all over where the chance to hit is 95%. No thanks! Hopefully it is changed to a save (as it should be).
I think I prefer targetting INT instead of AC. Or, well, at least it has better odds for the defender. With a defender against INT-as-AC, every point of AC gives a +1 to defend. With a save, it takes two points of INT to get a +1.

Both AC and INT scores are on the 10-20 scale.

[Orbis Orboros]

"Starting at 17th level, you can use it twice before a rest, but only once on the same turn." (pg. 72)

It doesn't say anything about having to be used consecutively.

Also I think I saw someone say something about Action Surge using a bonus action to activate, which isn't true.

"On your turn, you can take one additional action on top of your regular action and a possible bonus action." (pg 72).

But it IS a bonus action for the Mystic's version. As things stand, I don't think the Celerity action surge is OP in and of itself. 5 levels of spell slot-less multiclass for that surge seems reasonable to me.

[Kryx]

I think I prefer targetting INT instead of AC. Or, well, at least it has better odds for the defender. With a defender against INT-as-AC, every point of AC gives a +1 to defend. With a save, it takes two points of INT to get a +1.

Both AC and INT scores are on the 10-20 scale.
Int score for monsters is on a 1-30+ scale. It varies widely. it does not fit with bounded accuracy at all.

One of the main points of 5e was to make everything attack the same thing: AC.
Which is a change from 4e's attacking attributes and 3.X's attacks vs Unarmored AC, Flat-footed AC, Touch AC, AC, etc.

There is a reason this is gone. That reason is near automatic hitting. Let it stay gone.

[Human Paragon 3]

Just want to point out that in addition to requiring your bonus action to gain the extra celerity action, Order of the Immortal does not get the extra attack class feature, so a mystic's celerity and a fighter's action surge are totally different animals.

[Rezby]

Considering fighters get 4 swings, while no other class can. The extra action surge really only gives them an extra two swings if they are allowed to get an extra swing. They may get an extra turn but damage wise the fighter is still best with more swings per round bit.

Also the non-mudane version of the fighter can cast spells and swing while this one can't and that is without using action surge.

I did some analysis of the comparison between flat fighter vs multi-classed fighter and order of the immortal mystic (the immortal fighter, for short :p ) in this thread on Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/3cbb7p/unearthed_arcana_awakened_mystic/csutytl

The tl;dr is that over 5 rounds, a level 20 fighter could make 28 attacks. A level 5 mystic/level 11 immortal fighter can make 33 over the same 5 rounds. This is based off the fighter's level 11 three attacks as a single attack action ability. By then the combat should be over.

Even over 2 rounds, that's 18 vs 16 attacks, in an immortal vs flat fighter comparison.

I also address some other balance issues I have with the class in the reddit thread.





risk of people just making their own thing (or possibly even other companies publishing stuff compatible with your core rules, which for example happened in 4th edition when a few publishers decided they disliked the GSL strongly enough to just make product without it).

.

I'm sorry, but would you mind telling me as to what are you referring to specifically?

[Inevitability]

I haven't read through all of this, so apologies if what I say has been said before, but my thoughts:

-The presence of psionics is related to the 'normality' of the setting? Makes quite a bit of sense, actually. I have to wonder though; what about Ravenloft, which has vastly changed universal laws but seems to be almost void of psions?

-1d8 HD. Well, I suppose it was their best option if they wanted both psychic warriors and pure 'casters' to have appropriate HP, but still...

-Why is their proficient saving throw Wisdom? Yes, I understand the Wisdom=Will association, but Psychic Warriors, for example, didn't have good Will saves back in 3.5. I think Intelligence fits here better.

-Skills are the wizard list, but with Nature and Perception and without Investigation. No complaints here.

-Strength of Mind? While one of your saving throws is arguably the most common/important one? Yeah... I'll definitely change the fixed proficiency to Intelligence.

-Mind Thrust? This power unaugmented is only a point of damage behind fire bolt, and then it has a ton of bonuses added to it and a great damage type. And it targets Intelligence? People, read your monster manuals and realize that most of the monster you'll ever face have Intelligence scores at least four point below their AC. Just make it force an Intelligence saving throw or something, WOTC, but don't do this.

-Psychic Mind is fine and flavorful. Object reading feels like something they just threw in when no one came up with something better. When I want to play a psychic master of manipulation, being able to see who was the last one to touch a random chair isn't a core part of my character concept.

-Conquering Mind seems like it'll wreck campaigns, though that may just be me assuming the worst. At the very least succeeding on a saving throw will protect a creature for 24 hours, which prevents massive powerspam.

-Intellect Fortress is the classic example of something being Boring But Practical. It's a strong defensive ability with the possibility for offense, but it's the only thing the discipline has! On top of that, it's a passive ability with no possibility of activating it yourself.

-Third Eye is just bad. Special senses will be useless in combat unless the monsters are invisible, hiding, or using magical darkness. Truesight has its uses. I definitely wouldn't take this before fifth level, though. And why the heck is blindsight always-on, but must tremorsense be paid for? I'd take the first over the second any day.

-Durable Mind might seem strong at first glance, but when you can refresh a power on your turn anyway having your concentration disrupted isn't that big of a drawback.

-Psychic Regeneration is cool, but I feel it, like much of this subclass, is stepping on the fighter's toes. (More like stabbing the toes with an etheral psionic weapon, then applying lethal strike and then doing it all over again with Surge of Action, but you know what I mean)

-Celerity is one of the best-designed disciplines IMO. Yes, the extra action may look powerful, but remember that unlike fighters and rogues a mystic won't get Extra Attack. What this discipline does give you is the ability to be fast and nimble. (Then again, isn't that supposed to be the monk's niche?)

-Iron Durability? Let's just say I don't like static AC bonuses and leave it at that. And now that they have finally brought back 4e's second wind, why does it have to be psionic-only?

-Psionic Weapon solves the problem of magic weapons at low levels better than paladins or wizards did. Etheral Weapon is balanced enough, but Lethal Strike I am not sure about. It only reinforces my opinion that WOTC is indeed letting the mystic outshine the currently playable classes.


TL;DR

-The fluff for psionics is all right.
-Mystics are strong.
-Some abilities are boring, not flavorful, or too strong.
-The Order of Immortality is trying to be all of the current non-caster classes at once.
-Psionics is a good concept, and WOTC definitely did great things here, but there is a lot to improve. Then again, isn't that the purpose of UA?

[rollingForInit]

-Psychic Mind is fine and flavorful. Object reading feels like something they just threw in when no one came up with something better. When I want to play a psychic master of manipulation, being able to see who was the last one to touch a random chair isn't a core part of my character concept.



Actually, being able to sense "psychic impressions" or something like that feels very flavourful to be, and fitting with this type of psionic character. I mean, as in an actual pyschic. Not sre if copying the Knowledge Cleric's level 17 ability is the best way, but something like it - I love that idea.

[recapdrake]

Can we really blame them for only doing five levels? I mean let's be honest, the psionic is the most confusing and difficult class of all time. Half the people who play have zero idea how it works, when it was originally released it required a freaking huge book to explain the crap.

[SharkForce]

Concentration is not a spell effect, or a psionic effect. Concentration is just concentration. Spell effects are things caused by spells. Psionic effects would be things caused by disciplines or powers.

yes, but the rule about rage and concentration is in the rage rules, not the concentration rules, and specifically says it is about spells. thus, the rage rules are something that alters a spell (specifically, your ability to cast or concentrate on them), not a core rule about concentration. if the rule about rage was right in the rules for concentration, i'd say it was a core part of the concentration rules. but it isn't. it's in the barbarian rage ability description.


He is OP because he can do many d8 damage against int [snip]

again, it's not the many dice. he's not doing "many dice" for free, he's doing 6d8 damage against a single target for the cost of a fireball spell which does 8d6 to many targets. at higher levels, he'll probably end up doing 14d8 damage against a single target for the cost of a meteor swarm (and if it follows the standard spell point rules, which the chart does exactly so far, will probably only be able to do that once a day). now let's stop and ask ourselves, which sounds more powerful, meteor swarm, or 14d8 damage to a single target?

the broken part of the ability is the parts you get for free, especially the no cover, no LOS requirements (targeting int is definitely a nice ability, and will almost always result in much easier attack rolls, but is not so much unbalanced as it is jarring in a game that had such an emphasis on bounded accuracy). it makes it far too easy to get yourself into a position where you can hit the enemy but the enemy cannot retaliate, if they even know where you are at all considering you can be hanging out inside a wall and still turn their brain to jelly.


Just want to point out that in addition to requiring your bonus action to gain the extra celerity action, Order of the Immortal does not get the extra attack class feature, so a mystic's celerity and a fighter's action surge are totally different animals.

does not get it at level 5. we have 5 levels of the class only. if you saw the first 5 levels of the bard college of valor, you might think they only get 1 attack as well. i very much doubt the immortal is going to stay at 1 attack forever.


I'm sorry, but would you mind telling me as to what are you referring to specifically?

the post that i quoted (which suggested making some changes to psionics that doesn't fit with any of the fluff from earlier editions). what else would i be referring to specifically?


-Durable Mind might seem strong at first glance, but when you can refresh a power on your turn anyway having your concentration disrupted isn't that big of a drawback.

no, it's definitely a big drawback still. when you stop concentrating on a discipline, all of the stuff that comes from that discipline stops working unless otherwise specified. we don't have anything that is otherwise specified, so if you drop your concentration that was keeping your weapon at +3, you lose your 5 psi-points and the effect, and if you want it back you have to give up your bonus action to begin concentration, which for a weapon user basically amounts to losing an attack that round. which is pretty significant considering you can add 5d10 damage to an attack, decided after it hits. other discipline abilities that require a bonus action to activate will even be unavailable for the turn where you spend your bonus action to start concentrating as well.

durable mind is pretty important for them to have, and is very impactful. right now, it looks like they're not going to have much in the way of extraordinarily effective abilities outside of their disciplines. seriously, until you look at disciplines all they're getting is shield proficiency and martial weapon proficiency, and regeneration. now, regeneration is pretty cool... but it's only any use at all if you have enough offensive presence for anyone to target you.

you must concentrate on a discipline and spend points to enhance those disciplines, pretty much, to have anything remotely like an impressive combat presence.

[KorvinStarmast]

Mystic was the old name for the D&D monk class. Hmm, I am not sure that's right.
From Blackmoor Page 1.(Where monk was introduced).

Monks (Order of Monastic Martial Arts), a sub-class of Clerics which also combines the general attributes of Thief and Fighting Man.
I didn't find a ref to monk/mystics in any of the old Strategic Reviews.

[Ralanr]

Is their psi point max just per discipline or per turn?

[KorvinStarmast]

Obligatory +1 saltyness post complaining that they still haven't fixed the beastmaster. Don't worry, psionics will fix the beastmaster. :smalltongue:

[DanyBallon]

yes, but the rule about rage and concentration is in the rage rules, not the concentration rules, and specifically says it is about spells. thus, the rage rules are something that alters a spell (specifically, your ability to cast or concentrate on them), not a core rule about concentration. if the rule about rage was right in the rules for concentration, i'd say it was a core part of the concentration rules. but it isn't. it's in the barbarian rage ability description.


The rage rules, as well as all the core rules, were not written in case we'd get psionic abilities. I believe that if they ever released a psionic book, there will be an errata to the core books, to cover the new psionic abilities, or something the psionic book that says how these abilities interact with other abilities.

So I'd say it's fine to assume that Barbarian won't be able to concentrate on psionic effects while raging, as they can't for spell effects.

[KorvinStarmast]

-Psychic Mind is fine and flavorful. Object reading feels like something they just threw in when no one came up with something better. When I want to play a psychic master of manipulation, being able to see who was the last one to touch a random chair isn't a core part of my character concept. Well, if one wants to find out who's been making the duke a cuckhold, your healer cleric female psion might be able to track that fella down pretty quick. :smallbiggrin:


-Celerity is one of the best-designed disciplines IMO. Yes, the extra action may look powerful, but remember that unlike fighters and rogues a mystic won't get Extra Attack. What this discipline does give you is the ability to be fast and nimble. Good point.


-Psionic Weapon solves the problem of magic weapons at low levels better than paladins or wizards did. Etheral Weapon is balanced enough, but Lethal Strike I am not sure about. It only reinforces my opinion that WOTC is indeed letting the mystic outshine the currently playable classes. Well, that's an old habit in D & D. When Paladin and Ranger were introduced, they were a lot better than Fighting men, but you had to qualify for them. (Hard to get all of those rolls for one character when rolling up the old school way). Thieves were very cool for their abilities, but they were 1d4 (which was a good way to force a risk/reward decision at character creation).

When monks were introduced, their dodging, harder to surprise, and some other features were "more cool."

Assassins likewise.

When Druids were introduced, that way cool shape shifting ability was a neat tool.

It's only gotten moreso as time has gone on. The Rule of cool, cooler, coolest, coolestest, and so on. :smalltongue:

New classes have to have something special.


My summary: so far, and this is understood to be a work in progress, psionics are again an awkward fit, just as when they were first introduced. On the bright side, some of the mechanics fit better so far.

Suggestion for you all: play around with this and find the holes. Let WoTC know what you think.

[SharkForce]

The rage rules, as well as all the core rules, were not written in case we'd get psionic abilities. I believe that if they ever released a psionic book, there will be an errata to the core books, to cover the new psionic abilities, or something the psionic book that says how these abilities interact with other abilities.

So I'd say it's fine to assume that Barbarian won't be able to concentrate on psionic effects while raging, as they can't for spell effects.

yes, i know.

i've said as much twice.

but that isn't the question i was answering. the question i was answering is "what do the rules say". not "what should the rules say", or "what are the rules intended to mean" or, "what will the final version of the rules say after loopholes have been located and closed".

and what the rules say points to it being possible. and since it doesn't look like it's going to particularly break anything at this point, i honestly can't work up the effort to care whether someone else is playing the game with a rule that likely doesn't say what the designers want it to say at this point. i don't see anything particularly more powerful about combining immortal with barbarian than there is from combining immortal with fighter. in fact, honestly, i feel like fighter probably has more synergy, since barbarian benefits greatly from going mostly single-classed while fighter is amazing for the first while but then basically stops progressing for the most part, making it perfect for a multiclass build.

[Kryx]

targeting int is definitely a nice ability, and will almost always result in much easier attack rolls, but is not so much unbalanced as it is jarring in a game that had such an emphasis on bounded accuracy
If a potential 95% hit chance is balanced then I don't know what is unbalanced.

Int scales between 1-30 for most monsters. It would either hit like crazy against most creatures or miss like crazy against intelligent enemies.

5e purposefully moved us away from targeting things other than AC with attacks. I, for one, will not have that unbalanced system back. (would likely just houserule it to be an int save if it goes this route)

[Fwiffo86]

Hmm, I am not sure that's right.
From Blackmoor Page 1.(Where monk was introduced).

I didn't find a ref to monk/mystics in any of the old Strategic Reviews.

Mystic - Rules Cyclopedia.

Optional class, 16 levels max even though its a human class.

[Doug Lampert]

Mystic - Rules Cyclopedia.

Optional class, 16 levels max even though its a human class.

Blackmoor, published in 1975, has a class called monk.

Rules Cyclopedia, published in 1991, has a similar class called mystic.

If we're talking about the old name for the class, then it is monk! And get off my lawn!

[SharkForce]

If a potential 95% hit chance is balanced then I don't what is unbalanced.

Int scales between 1-30 for most monsters. It with either hit like crazy against most creatures or miss like crazy against intelligent enemies.

5e purposefully moved us away from targeting things other than AC with attacks. I, for one, will not have that unbalanced system back. (would likely just houserule it to be an int save if it goes this route)

*shrug* it probably is unbalanced, to some extent.

the thing is, it ultimately isn't really a problem. the damage is terrible unless you spend points on it, and when you do that, it's basically like a really really crappy damaging spell. seriously, it's directly copied the spell point variant table, and for the cost of a fireball you can get a 6d8 single-target effect that is very likely to hit. 6d8 damage with a high chance to hit is certainly nice, but you could make a wizard and throw fireballs instead for the same cost and be much better off in so many ways.

it's strong in a way. but targeting intelligence doesn't really cause anywhere near the same level of problems as not needing LOS or LOE causes. it's like... well, imagine you're painting a room in your house, and you discovered 2 problems: 1) you wanted cream-coloured paint but you got brown, and 2) the room is on fire. yeah, the paint is the wrong colour, but you're not likely to spend much energy worrying about it when the room is on fire. the room will function with the wrong paint colour, even if you do use that paint, but the room being on fire is not only a danger to that room being destroyed, but to the entire house if you don't do something about it.

[Kryx]

targeting intelligence doesn't really cause anywhere near the same level of problems as not needing LOS or LOE causes
I agree that making an attack that shares very few base properties of other attacks is a poor choice.

However attacking anything but AC is the sticking point and the moral boundary that I will not cross. It doesn't really matter to me if the ability is great or mediocre on damage. Attacking anything but AC is a cardinal sin in 5e imo.

Making an attack that isn't an attack in many basic properties is also awful.

[KorvinStarmast]

Mystic - Rules Cyclopedia.

Optional class, 16 levels max even though its a human class. I see, I thought he had referred to D&D as in OD&D, rather than one of the versions of Monty Haul D&D. (Basic set versions 2&3). That was IIRC the family of D&D boxed set games which isn't quite what AD&D was and that had become the standard for the game (pros and cons).

Truth: I never got into those versions of D&D because of those kids playing on my lawn ... my kids. :smallbiggrin:

Clear as mud, of course. TSR had to keep those printing presses from getting cold.

[DanyBallon]

yes, i know.

i've said as much twice.

but that isn't the question i was answering. the question i was answering is "what do the rules say". not "what should the rules say", or "what are the rules intended to mean" or, "what will the final version of the rules say after loopholes have been located and closed".


My point is that in this particular case, you can't check "what do the rules says" because the element you try to find a rule for, didn't exist when the released the core rules. The closest thing we have, it's that it behave much like spells, even if they are not.

[ThermalSlapShot]

Can we really blame them for only doing five levels? I mean let's be honest, the psionic is the most confusing and difficult class of all time. Half the people who play have zero idea how it works, when it was originally released it required a freaking huge book to explain the crap.

Actually ever since 3.5 Psionics have been the simplest class of all time.

3.5 Tier 1 were pretty complex, oh, don't for get Incarnum and Truenamer...

This 4e derived Psionic system looks to be quite easy and simple.

You have X abilities.
You have Y psi points.
You refresh psi points /long rest.
You have Z disciplines, each taking a BA to start concentrating (but not to continue to concentrate).
You may spend N Psi Points (up to max) to do other cool things based on what you are concentrating on.

You get to pick how simple or complex your PC is and can cover many different styles of play.

With a bit of fluff this Immortal Mystic is what the Fighter could have been.

[silveralen]

The immortal looks crazy powerful, at least if he ever gets a second attack. Even beyond cheese like GWF/Sharpshooter losing the penalty with ethereal weapon, lethal strike is like smite on steroids. It will be odd to see what sort of higher level abilities they get, because so far they already get some absolute gems.

[SharkForce]

My point is that in this particular case, you can't check "what do the rules says" because the element you try to find a rule for, didn't exist when the released the core rules. The closest thing we have, it's that it behave much like spells, even if they are not.

again, you are arguing what the question should have been.

i very much *can* check what the rules say. i just open my book, go to the page, and hey, there it is. that's what the rules say.

you may disagree that the person asked the right question (the question you are answering is something along the lines of "based on the available information, how do you think the rules were intended to function in this case"), and certainly 5th edition D&D is not designed around the assumption that RAW is supreme. i don't think they asked the right question, either, which is why my answer included what i think it should mean, and what i think the authors would have intended it to mean if we asked them.

but that is still the question they asked, and it is entirely possible to answer it. it's right there in the book, plain as the nose on my face.

[CyberThread]

So if I let my players try this out, where would you suggest a level 6 character multi class into?

[Ralanr]

So if I let my players try this out, where would you suggest a level 6 character multi class into?

I might be having a brain fart. Do you mean which subclass or when the class reaches 6 what should they multiclass into?

If it's the latter, immortal should go fighter.

[Nifft]

Some good stuff, but lots of bad stuff too.

- Concentration as the core mechanic. It's an interesting and good idea that a Discipline can have a "free" benefit which only costs Concentration, but it seems very limiting to force all effects into the same pattern. For an example of where this pattern doesn't work well, consider Celerity, which has three different initiative benefits. That seems to be a "gotcha!" design choice -- "Did you remember to put on your anti-ambush hat before the ambush?"
--- Multi-classing: I feel like requiring Concentration to do nearly everything is a middle finger targeted at multi-class Psi/Spellcasters.
--- Durable Mind seems to be another symptom of this shoehorning. Since Concentration is a poor balance mechanism for melee characters, therefore they make Concentration not behave like Concentration.

- (Spell/Psi) Points. It's a fine idea to use the same progression as spellcasters, especially if it allows easier multi-classing, except they don't actually follow it. IIRC, a 1st-level spell points effect ought to cost 2 points. There are no 2-point effects in this document, but there are a whole bunch of 1-point effects. There was a reason why 1st level spells cost 2 points instead of 1 point, and this preview seems to have been written by someone ignorant of that reason.

- Mind Thrust. It's a Cantrip. It should behave like a Cantrip. It should scale up in damage over levels, and it should use a normal resolution mechanic (e.g. "target makes an Intelligence save").

- Specific effect oddities.
--- Blindsight seems to be generally better than Tremorsense, but you have to pay for Tremorsense. My intuition is that the designer wrote "blindsense", then a helpful editor noted that 5e has no such thing as blindsense, and "fixed" the term. Blindsense -> Tremorsense would be a legitimate upgrade, but it seems to me that Blindsight is strictly better.
--- Psionic Weapon scales in some ways with rarity of magical gear. If your DM is stingy, then it's excellent.
--- Intellect Fortress is only a passive defensive effect. Hopefully that's just an indication of premature release rather than a design choice, and there won't be any such passive-only Disciplines in the final version.


I don't like the flavor of binding Psionics to the Far Realms. Not all of my settings will have a Far Realms. It's one more thing that I'd have to put in effort to re-educate players about.

[Citan]

bear in mind, this is only the first 5 levels.

also, i can't agree that the point scaling is off. the points are fine. there's nothing unbalanced about spending the equivalent of a 9th level spell to do 17d8 (or thereabouts) damage to a single target. in fact, if i'm going to be blunt, that sounds like an incredibly bad use of your resources. the OP parts are the parts that come free of charge; ignores cover, targets intelligence instead of AC, doesn't require line of sight. all that comes with no cost in psi-points whatsoever, and has far more to do with why the ability is a problem. when you can relatively easily create a nigh-impenetrable stronghold, it doesn't much matter whether you're doing 1d8 per action or 15d8. it matters that you can attack them with ease, and they have basically no way to retaliate, therefore you are going to win eventually.
Errr, sorry, NO. While I agree with you that part of the OP of Thrust of Mind comes first and foremost from targeting INT and not requiring line of sight, there IS a balance problem with point.
Consider this: lvl 20 character will probably have at least 150 points if they keep the scale as is.
This means that this character can make a 17d8 (20d8?) psychic damage from a lvl0 spell nearly 10 times before rest. Some other people compared with lvl9-slot spells which I find dubious but lets roll on this. to compare single-target damage.
Ex of lower level spell cast as higher:
- Chromatic Orb as lvl9: 3d8+8d8=11d8.
- Scorching Ray as lvl9: 3*2d6 + 7*2d6 = 20d6 fire (commonly resisted)
- Lightning Bolt as lvl9: 8d6 + 6d6 = 14d6 lightning
- Meteor Swarm (lvl9 spell): 40d6 (half fire, half bludgeoning)
- As a side note, the Elemental Monk (which would admittedly benefit from fixes) lvl20 could do the same kind of damage but only once per short rest and then is useless.
- As another side note, a Paladin could probably achieve a similar result if multiclassed to cast a lvl9 Searing Smite + Divine Smite on each attack. A pure Paladin would only come not so close.

Note I didn't include AoE spells since it would be obvious that they are better in case of swarm, the overpower problem concerns nova against a single enemy (so Fireball examples are useless).

So, what's the conclusion?
Meteor Swarm is the only spell being overwhelmingly superior in terms of damage given to a single target (if you put aside the fire resistance/immunity issue). So all is right? Clearly no.
- Only pure Wizard or very high level Bards could get their hands on Meteor Swarm.
- Pure caster will only have 1 lvl9 spell slot and 1 lvl 8 slot between long rest, whereas Mystic would be able to draw the same kind of power at the very least 7 or 8 times.
- Mind Thrust is an ability available from lvl1 onwards and is a class ability, whereas casters have to choose what they learn due to limited memory.
- Mind Thrust IS A RANGED ATTACK ACTION, not a spell, meaning that you could chain it with Action Surge AND Celerity (since it's not part of an archetype), as well as any Concentration-based buff/debuff spell.

So you look at a potential nova of >17d8*3 at the very least with a good chance to hit on many monsters. Repeatable at least 2 times. Or, in a more realistic and efficient way to use pp, make a nova on first round then use your still huge of pp pool in a sensible manner on your disciplines, round per round.

Do you REALLY find this balanced? I'm not saying it's game-breaking per se, but it's clearly overpowered as is compared to other nova potential from classes since it cumulates nearly all goodness of mechanics from other classes (scalability, usable with Action Surge, targets other than AC etc).
This is why spell points or spell maximum (or both) has to be reduced.
Or alternatively, ability could be rewritten to remove one of the OP aspects: INT targeting, "blind" targeting, per point scaling, starting class ability.

[ThermalSlapShot]

So if I let my players try this out, where would you suggest a level 6 character multi class into?

Mystic works well with any class. You really don't need Int (well... 13 for MC) all that much.

Warlock would be interesting as would Rogue or even Druid... Mystic really MCs quite well.

[SharkForce]

if power points keeps scaling the way it's going now, it'll be exactly 133 points total by level 20, with a maximum of 13 spent on any one thing, and anything above 7 will be limited (once each of 9, 10, 11, and 13). because it is exactly identical to the spell point rules in the DMG.

and you'll only be able to do it in place of something that is actually *worth* a level 9 spell slot in resources. yes, theoretically you *can* use your level 9 spell slot to cast a high damage scorching ray, but you're an idiot if you do. meteor swarm is actually one of the *less* impressive things you could possibly do with a 9th level spell slot. you could, for example, polymorph a rock into a loyal CR 9 minion for an hour. some options: a young blue dragon that can do 10d10 damage every 3 rounds or so in a line for an hour, and has pretty impressive damage on the off-turns. or a fire giant that can do 6d6+7 damage twice a round without limitation. or, you could wish for a simulacrum of any humanoid or beast you see that day, and keep it around indefinitely.

the damage from mind thrust is frankly just not that great. it is slightly higher than you might be able to get out of a high level weapon-using class (average damage on a hit is 63, which is frankly not that far above the expected damage of a typical weapon-using class at that point in the game), except that you're burning 1/10 of your resources to do it whereas the weapon-using class barely used anything at all. (also, mind thrust IS a part of an archetype, you're dead wrong on that. only awakened gets it, so no celerity, and if you took 2 levels of fighter for action surge you just lost about an extra 20 psi-points to do that).

i don't know what kind of effects we'll be seeing for 13 points from the various disciplines, but if the best thing you can do with 13 psi-points at level 17 is above-average damage to a single target, i'll be very surprised. also disappointed.

[ImperiousLeader]

One thing I'm not clear on: can one concentrate on a spell and a discipline? I'm finding I go both ways on this one.

[CyberThread]

One thing I'm not clear on: can one concentrate on a spell and a discipline? I'm finding I go both ways on this one.



Yes, different type of concentrations abilities.

[SharkForce]

technically, you can concentrate on a spell and then activate a discipline, but starting concentration on a spell will disrupt any previously activated discipline's concentration (check your PHB, technically it is casting a spell that requires concentration which disrupts previously existing concentration).

most likely this is an error.

my inclination is to say that you should not be able to.

and, in fact, it's fairly clearly indicated that, so far as the authors are concerned, that you lose concentration on something whenever you start concentrating on a different thing (for example, from the UA article we can read: "Concentrating on a discipline uses the same rules as concentrating on a spell. Among other things, this means that a mystic can maintain concentration only on one discipline at a time..."

technically, this is not what the rules say, but it pretty strongly implies that they meant for the rules to make concentration possible on only one thing at a time, regardless of the cause for concentration.

speaking of which, if anyone with access to the people who write errata reads this, you should probably make a note :P

[ThermalSlapShot]

Yes, different type of concentrations abilities.

Which is why Rage + Psionic Concentration works.

[Malifice]

Just want to point out that in addition to requiring your bonus action to gain the extra celerity action, Order of the Immortal does not get the extra attack class feature, so a mystic's celerity and a fighter's action surge are totally different animals.

Yet Mystic 1/ Fighter 11 gets 9 attacks in a single round (three actions).

A Fighter 2/ Mystic 1/ Wizard 17 is looking damn nasty with three spells per turn.

[CyberThread]

Which is why Rage + Psionic Concentration works.


rage + immortal burst damage abilties could be fun.

[ThermalSlapShot]

rage + immortal burst damage abilties could be fun.

I absolutely love mind thrust + rage fluff/mechanics and demand WotC to make it where they work together for continuing rage, add rage damage, and work with extra critical damage...

You hear me wotc, do you fricken hear me!!!???

:smallbiggrin:

[DireSickFish]

Yes, different type of concentrations abilities.

I don't think they are different concentration abilities. The text says the function the exact same as magical concentration, which would mean no concentrating on two things at once.

[CyberThread]

It says it works the same, not they are the same. It was giving you a metaphore for the rules, not the same exact system. This is a class skill, not a general rules skill.

[Ralanr]

It says it works the same, not they are the same. It was giving you a metaphore for the rules, not the same exact system. This is a class skill, not a general rules skill.

And specific does beat general.

[SharkForce]

Yet Mystic 1/ Fighter 11 gets 9 attacks in a single round (three actions).

A Fighter 2/ Mystic 1/ Wizard 17 is looking damn nasty with three spells per turn.

doesn't work. even if mystic 1 had 5 points (it doesn't), you'd need 5 levels to have psi point cap to use a 5 point ability.

you wanna give up 7 wizard levels to cast 3 spells a turn, well, enjoy not getting the spell slots or spells that make wizards powerful.

[Steampunkette]

Love the setup.

Need more.

[Giant2005]

This is absurdly OP.
After 1 level you have a better version of the Rogue's level 15 ability.
After 1 level you can have a better version of the Rogue's level 14 ability.
After 3 levels you can have the Champion's level 18 ability.
After 5 levels, you can have the Fighter's level 17 ability.

The fact that all of these high level abilities are included with such a low investment makes me feel like the class should have a requirement of being level 10+ before you can go into it. If it had some kind of caveat on it like that, it would merely be mildly OP rather than absurdly OP.
It isn't just that it steals other classes high level abilities either, it has so many amazing abilities in its own right that it is pretty high up there in power even without including those abilities.


There is literally no character in this game that wouldn't be better by dipping into Mystic and that is obviously a pretty big balance issue. I mean, why spend a feat on Resilient, when for a single level dip you can pick up a better version of Resilient, Telepathy, an extra (albeit weaker) Cantrip, and either the ability to infinitely use a reaction to impose Disadvantage on your enemy's attacks + cause damage if they hit, or 30' Blindsight with the option of giving yourself Advantage on Wisdom saves,

[Scarab112]

Yeah. Hopefully they end up toning down the basic abilities to the same level as cantrips and spreading out the rest of the features to higher levels. There needs to be a lot of tweaking before this can see play.

[Ragequit]

Which is why Rage + Psionic Concentration works.

I would have to say this is wrong, as in the document it states as written,

"Concentrating on a discipline uses the same rules as concentrating on a spell. Among other things, this means that a mystic can maintain concentration only on one discipline at a time, and that any effect that causes a mystic to lose concentration causes the discipline to end. Ending concentration on a discipline immediately ends all the discipline’s effects, unless the discipline’s description says otherwise."

Which would mean, anything that would disrupt the concentration on a spell, would also disrupt the concentration of a Discipline. It would also mean that if you want to cast a spell that requires concentration you would have to cease concentrating on your discipline and vice versa.

[Citan]

if power points keeps scaling the way it's going now, it'll be exactly 133 points total by level 20, with a maximum of 13 spent on any one thing, and anything above 7 will be limited (once each of 9, 10, 11, and 13). because it is exactly identical to the spell point rules in the DMG.

Wasn't aware of the variant spell points system in the DMG. If indeed they follow the exact same rules then I'll agree with you. If they don't (if only by not restricting the cast of high level spells) then I won't because my point will still stand, as Mystic would then be only one able to cast several "9th-like" powers in a single day.

You're probably right though, it would make no sense not to reuse a spell point system they crafted and balanced before, so then all will probably be right. :)

[Giant2005]

Is there any reason to think that Mystic levels 6+ will even be a thing?
Considering the low cost of the abilities, I don't expect it to scale all the way up to 20.

[EggKookoo]

I would have to say this is wrong, as in the document it states as written,

"Concentrating on a discipline uses the same rules as concentrating on a spell. Among other things, this means that a mystic can maintain concentration only on one discipline at a time, and that any effect that causes a mystic to lose concentration causes the discipline to end. Ending concentration on a discipline immediately ends all the discipline’s effects, unless the discipline’s description says otherwise."

Which would mean, anything that would disrupt the concentration on a spell, would also disrupt the concentration of a Discipline. It would also mean that if you want to cast a spell that requires concentration you would have to cease concentrating on your discipline and vice versa.

This is how I would rule it at my table, as well.

[Steampunkette]

The big and powerful abilities of this class are designed not to synergize well with other extant abilities and do not have the ability support that makes those high end abilities powerful when those abilities even are powerful

Blindsense, for example, is not powerful at all. It can be situationally useful in nosight fights against invisible or darksighted enemies or finding illusions... but compared to the relative scarcity of such things it mostly becomes fluff.

And sure, surge of action is useful. But unless the Psychic warrior kit gets some more attacks, or increased damage later, they're just going to be making 2 normal melee attacks, and no offhand attack. After all, you can't concentrate on Celerity and Psionic Weapon at the same time.

At best, for a multiclasser, you could make 3 more attacks or cast 1 extra spell once or twice per long rest.

The BEST power is the self healing. And it is only really useful for out of combat resource expenditure reduction. 1hp of fast healing when you have less than 4hp probably isn't going to save you from a goblin with a d6 spear, and might not if you have 4. And at 20 that 10 points won't save you from dragon's breath or a storm giant's boot.

So while it looks great, it just ain't. It's a pretty good looking class, but not incredible.

[Giant2005]

At best, for a multiclasser, you could make 3 more attacks or cast 1 extra spell once or twice per long rest.
Not once or twice, five times. Once or twice wouldn't be so bad but five times is pretty outrageous and craps all over the Fighter's level 18 feature.


The BEST power is the self healing. And it is only really useful for out of combat resource expenditure reduction. 1hp of fast healing when you have less than 4hp probably isn't going to save you from a goblin with a d6 spear, and might not if you have 4. And at 20 that 10 points won't save you from dragon's breath or a storm giant's boot.

One or two HP doesn't sound like a lot, but when you combine it with a decent AC and maybe some resistance, it counts for far more. When you consider that Iron Durability comes with an ability that basically equates to "You don't hit me unless I say you hit me", that 1 or 2 points of regeneration could fairly reasonably keep the Mystic topped up (Up to half, which would essentially be the character's effective maximum).

[DireSickFish]

It says it works the same, not they are the same. It was giving you a metaphore for the rules, not the same exact system. This is a class skill, not a general rules skill.

It also specifically calls out that anything that would end concentration for a spell ends the mystics concentration. The two most common occurrences for that would be taking damage and failing the con save or concentrating on another spell. If I'm concentrating on Bless then casting Haste would end my Bless' concentration. So it stands that casting Haste would end my disciplines concentration.

[pwykersotz]

Is there any reason to think that Mystic levels 6+ will even be a thing?
Considering the low cost of the abilities, I don't expect it to scale all the way up to 20.

I'd be very surprised if it didn't. A lot of the early playtest classes only had 5 levels released. I suspect we're seeing more of that.

[Fwiffo86]

Mind thrust stuff....

Is there any evidence to support a mechanic won't be introduced to regulate the obvious cantripness of Mind Thrust? Or are we just assuming that the designers are specifically ignoring the general game design methodology?

[mephnick]

This is absurdly OP.

Yep, like most other things they've released in the UA articles, it's really not giving me confidence in future splats, which will be much harder to convince my group aren't official.

[Rezby]

Some thoughts on things that needed a rewrite:

Object Reading: needs to be clarified. Do I have to use concentration to use it? If so, by concentration rules, do I auto drop any other thing I'm concentrating on? Why is this designed so? Why not say 'focus' and specify it won't break concentration of other things (ie spells)? Additionally, needs to be limited number of times per day and/or limited objects it can be used on. What is to stop my mystic from psychically marking every single coin he has, every single object, everything ever, and being able to locate everything at any time later?

Strength of Mind: multi-classing problems arise. Now anybody can have 3 saving throws with a single level dip into Mystic, their base 2 and one they can change at any rest to suit a situation. Or the mystic alone can have 2 'strong' saving throws, and break the patten everybody else has of one 'weak' and one 'strong' saving throw. Dex, Con, Wis being the strong ones, because they are the most commonly targeted.

Intellect Fortress: auto-disadvantage on any physical attack roll, 1/turn, against them, and also auto-damage if they're hit anyways? Insert iconic Gandalf quote here.

Conquering Mind: no. Delete this. Taking control of other actors in the stage is bad gaming, and also mechanically unbalanced. Compare it's abilities to charm or dominate person, make it not vastly superior to those spells. The whole thing is bad and needs a complete replacement, or just to be completely stricken.

Psionic Regeneration: need to specify doesn't apply when the character is at 0 hp. Otherwise they will auto-heal back up and never ever go down. You can see why this is a problematic level 3 ability as is. Honestly, fast-healing is a really powerful ability, even fast healing 1-3, and thus needs to be a level 11 ability to be balanced IMO (of course the numbers will be higher then, but the ability itself is what needs to be delayed). It's comparable to having a 3rd attack with a single attack, or Improved Divine Smite, or Relentless Rage. The out of combat utility is exceptional at any level, as well.

Surge of Action: holy ****. Unless this gets some major changes, there isn't going to be a single fighter who isn't going to want to dip 5+ levels into mystic for this bull****. Let's do some math.

Level 20 Champion Fighter with a +3 greatsword, 20 str, and great weapon master feat:
In a single round, he can make 8 attacks with his two actions, and he can do this a second time in a single encounter before needing a short rest. His bonus to hit is +9, from + 5 str, - 5 feat, + 6 proficiency, and + 3 magic bonus. Let's assume an AC of 20, that seems about on par for epic level adventurers. So on a 1-10, he misses completely, on a 11-17 he hits normally, and an 18-20 he crits. So averaging 2d6 + 18 (25) on a regular hit, 4d6 + 18 on a crit (32), and 0 on a miss, his expected damage per swing ends up being 13.55 against an AC of 20. Likewise, against an AC of 18, that's an expected value of 16.05. Against AC 22, that becomes 11.05. and he's swinging 8 times in a single round for two rounds, so that's 88.4, 108.4, or 128.4 damage in a round against ACs 18, 20, and 22. Any rounds following that will have expected damage outcomes of 44.2, 54.2, or 64.2. Over 5 rounds, you'll have ended up with 8+8+4+4+4 or 28 attacks (as well as any bonus action attacks) so an expected output of 309.4, 379.4, or 449.4 damage against a foe with AC 18, 20, or 22, respectively, with potentially 5 bonus action swings, up to 55.25, 67.75, or 90.25 more expected damage. Actually, using binomial theory, I find that with 4 swings, each round there's a 0.478 chance of getting a bonus action attack (they proc on a crit). So a total expected damage over 5 rounds, including the possible bonus action attacks, would be 335.8095, 411.7845, or 492.5395.

Going to 10 rounds, this fighter will deal 20 more attacks for 48 total attacks, so expected damage of 530.4, 650.4, or 770.4, with up to 10 bonus action attacks dealing an expected 110.5, 135.5, or 165.5 more damage, and again applying binomial theorem, we get a final expected value of 583.219, 715.169, or 847.119 over the 10 rounds.

Level 15 Champion Fighter with 5 levels in Order of the Immortal Mystic, also with a +3 greatsword, a 20 str, and the gwm feat:
Using Surge of Action as well as Action Surge will allow this fighter to make 9 attacks in a single round for two rounds, and then 6 attacks for 3 more rounds. With base damage/swing the same as a pure fighter, this one can deal 99.45, 122.95, or 144.45 damage in a single round for the first two rounds, and then making 6 swings for 3 more rounds before running out of power points, dealing a total over 5 rounds of 36 attacks, or 397.8, 493.8, or 577.8 damage, with no option of bonus attacks. So far, clearly superior to baseline fighter.

But then they're out of power points. Let's say the fight rages on for 5 more rounds (unlikely imo). So they're stuck making 3 attacks a round now for 15 more attacks, totaling 51 attacks, with up to 5 bonus action swings (which are much less likely to occur, having only 0.386 chance) to occur, so they're dealing an expected damage of 563.55, 691.05, or 818.55, with up to 55.25, 67.75, or 90.25 more damage, for a final expected total of 584.8765, 717.2015, or 853.3865 damage over 10 rounds. They are still slightly better than the pure champion, but this is where their advantage ends. Any combat lasting longer than 10 rounds will have the pure champion as it's, well, champion, in terms of pure expected damage output.



What if there's a level 11 Champion archetype Fighter, with 9 levels of Order of the Immortal discipline Mystic (let's extrapolate by dmg spell point progression)? His critical range is smaller, but he'll have enough power points to continually have 6 swings for at least 10 rounds. +3 greatsword, 20 strength, and the gwm feat:

He still has + 9 to hit, dealing 25 on an average hit or 32 on a crit. But now his crit range is smaller, only 19-20 as opposed to 18-20 like the 15th+ level champion has. So against ACs 22, 20, and 18, he'll have an expected damage output of 10.7, 13.2, or 15.7. He can make 9 swings for two turns, then 6 for the rest of combat. So he'll be doing 96.3, 118.8, or 141.3 damage for two rounds, then continuing with 64.2, 79.2, or 84.2 every round for the rest of combat. After 5 rounds, he's made 36 attacks, with expected damage total being, with no chance of bonus action feat attacks due to using said bonus action with surge of action, 385.2, 475.2, or 565.2 damage. So far, better than the pure champion, but slightly worse than a greater improved crit multiclass immortal champion.

Taking this fight to 10 rounds, this guy will keep making 6 swings a round for 5 more rounds, totaling in a whopping 66 attacks. So a total expected damage of 706.2, 871.2, or 1036.2 over 10 rounds. He likely can keep using power points as well. His fast healing is 4, which is going to be better than the small dip's 2, and unless the pure champion also has constitution of 20, he's tied for or better than him at that. His HP pool will be smaller, but he's got a third save he's proficient in, and clearly seems to be the superior character to the other two options.

In conclusion, once the fighter hits 11th level and gets his third attack per attack option, his best option, by far, is to then level in mystic the rest of his progression.

This was done as proof that surge of action is completely broken and needs to be removed or rewritten. It is absolutely being a better fighter than the fighter class, especially for a multiclass. A fighter should not have to multiclass to be the best fighter he can be.

That was about all the big problems I had with the class go far. Mind Thrust seemed to be very accurate with a rare damage type, but it didn't seem unbalanced, compared to Eldritch blast or Fire bolt as a cantrip. As a spell, it seems on par to other level 1 single target spells that can be used with a higher spell slot. The rest feels alright to me. But what I highlighted above needs serious rebalancing.

[Fwiffo86]

Personally, I think speculating on builds higher than level five is completely useless. At this juncture, it is impossible to determine what abilities the mystic will have past level 5. This has the effect of rendering any build beyond that impossible to compare.

[Person_Man]

A lot of interesting ideas. But I currently hate it.

Besides being absurdly overpowered, its also absurdly convoluted to explain and understand. It overlaps with magic sometimes but not usually. It relies on Concentration but alters the Concentration rules. Psionic powers provide a passive benefit plus a menu of activated powers, but you need to switch between them if you want to use different activated powers. And most of the abilities overlap with the abilities granted by other classes, but are slightly different, and thus prone to multiclass stacking/min-maxing. It's a mess.

I would have preferred something closer to the 3.5 version, with Concentration and a stricter Augmentation limit. You get a list of psionic Powers. Each Power does one thing (but can be Augmented to be more powerful). Powers that provide an ongoing benefit require Concentration. Each turn you may spend a maximum number of Power Points equal to your 1 + 1/5 your psionic class level. Psionic = Magic by default for all things (but there are DM modules for alternatives). And you get some themeatically approprate class abilities that don't require Power Points to use, so that you always have something to do when you run out of Power Points. The end.

Was that so hard?

[ImperiousLeader]

Is there any reason to think that Mystic levels 6+ will even be a thing?
Considering the low cost of the abilities, I don't expect it to scale all the way up to 20.

Well, it's a base class, its going to be a 20 level class eventually.

My sidebet is that these psionic abilities will scale for another 5 levels ... gaining the equivalent of 5th level spells. Then, we'll see something like the Warlock's Mystic Arcanum, once per day abilities that mimic 6th through 9th level spells.

[CyberThread]

But what I highlighted above needs serious rebalancing.




You should seriously read my write up here

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?426378-So-over-the-last-48-hours-we-play-tested-the-Mystic-hard-this-is-what-we-have-found


It goes against many of the theory crafting going on here.

[Nifft]

You should seriously read my write up here

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?426378-So-over-the-last-48-hours-we-play-tested-the-Mystic-hard-this-is-what-we-have-found


It goes against many of the theory crafting going on here.

You played the class itself, for 5 levels.
You did not multi-class.

The theory seems to be saying stuff like:
- Fighter 5 / Mystic 5 is stronger than Fighter 10.
- Fighter 11 / Mystic 5 is stronger than Fighter 16.

So... how do you think your playtest refutes this sort of theory?

I mean, maybe you did somehow.

But I don't see it.

[Giant2005]

The theory seems to be saying stuff like:
- Fighter 5 / Mystic 5 is stronger than Fighter 10.
- Fighter 11 / Mystic 5 is stronger than Fighter 16.

That is probably the biggest use of it but even that is just the tip of the iceberg. Even a level 12 Paladin that devotes all of his spell slots into Smiting can't smite for as much damage as a level 5 Mystic using Psionic Weapon and that isn't even taking into account the extra +1 to-hit and damage that the Mystic gets for free.

[CyberThread]

You are saying it is op, because some other class can do something. Not that this class can do something.

[ThermalSlapShot]

You should seriously read my write up here

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?426378-So-over-the-last-48-hours-we-play-tested-the-Mystic-hard-this-is-what-we-have-found


It goes against many of the theory crafting going on here.

My friends and I also playtested this class. We have found that the Mystic plays completely opposite of what you say. Maybe we just play a bit more optimized/tactically but the Mystic is a solid class that stands up to and surpasses others (and really could be the new bar for martials).

Level 1 & 2? Yes boring, but that is pretty much the truth for every class in 5e. You can't hold that against one class and not the others.

The cool thing about the Mystic is that you can switch between multiple playstyles and perform each style pretty well. If you are bored being a speedster, switch into the Iron Durability and be a juggernaut.

The Immortal Mystic can be a rogue, fighter, paladin, or monk.

The Awaken Mystic can be a blaster mage, stealthy recon mage, or a support tank. The Awaken Mystic did great running around with Mind Thrust and the Help Action (much like how clerics can do that). The difference is that an Awaken Mystic can last longer in melee since clerics can't reaction punish as much.

[Naanomi]

Completely unrelated to balance; I'm glad to see psionics will be making a quick return to fluff... I have a psionic based country prominent in my homebrew setting and I'm glad I can quick approximating it all with other classes soon

[Ralanr]

If a class can surpass multiple classes at what they are able to do, then that class needs to be toned down.

Edit: they already have an ability that's pretty much the level 6 GOO warlock ability, except it deals damage if hit.

Dodge? Hell no, I'm gonna make the final boss take all of his damage in psychic damage. He ain't gonna resist it.

DM fiat could fix that. But are we arguing that shouldn't need to be the case?

[ThermalSlapShot]

If a class can surpass multiple classes at what they are able to do, then that class needs to be toned down.

Edit: they already have an ability that's pretty much the level 6 GOO warlock ability, except it deals damage if hit.

Dodge? Hell no, I'm gonna make the final boss take all of his damage in psychic damage. He ain't gonna resist it.

DM fiat could fix that. But are we arguing that shouldn't need to be the case?

So we need to fix the cleric and bard?

Knowledge clerics can damage and make the GOO Warlock cry.

How about instead of pulling a 4e, where we lower casters to the level of martials, we push martials up to the level of casters.

The Psionic class may be able to change around and do different things but they can't do it all at once. Give that sort of caster flexibility to the martial classes and we will have a system where everyone is on the same level without the glass ceiling.

[Ralanr]

So we need to fix the cleric and bard?

Knowledge clerics can damage and make the GOO Warlock cry.

How about instead of pulling a 4e, where we lower casters to the level of martials, we push martials up to the level of casters.

The Psionic class may be able to change around and do different things but they can't do it all at once. Give that sort of caster flexibility to the martial classes and we will have a system where everyone is on the same level without the glass ceiling.

I'll give you a point on 4e, though there are a lot of reasons why it didn't work. I didn't play it, never found someone who could run it.

I do think martials should be on the level of casters, but that level is pretty crazy with the wish spell alone. Granted not all level 9 spells are good (hello weird).

Some classes will have overlapping abilities sadly, that gets harder with more classes. But since it's in testing phase we should do our part to help make the class unique and not just a mix up of other class abilities that it plays better with. That doesn't speak well for the game as a whole since it shows a lack of creativity and a disregard of previous player centered creations before it.

The other classes are already out and the first, "fix" was the spell less ranger. I'm not sure if the sorcerer bloodlines in the previous UA's count because they were in UA (I can't remember if modifying classes was a UA or not. I don't think it was due to lack of pdf). So they probably are thinking about "fixing" certain classes. But I'm not sure where it is on the priority list.

To be honest you're the only person I've seen that puts down martials so hard. Other people have pointed out unbalance, and they've thought of fixes. You seem to want them gone entirely, at least those without magic of some sorts. That only leaves the paladin left considering how messed up ranger is.

I would like to know what you think a fighter should be. I never got your view on that and it might be helpful to understand your point of view better.

I apologize for the bias I've shown to you before. Bias solves nothing.

[ThermalSlapShot]

I'll give you a point on 4e, though there are a lot of reasons why it didn't work. I didn't play it, never found someone who could run it.

I do think martials should be on the level of casters, but that level is pretty crazy with the wish spell alone. Granted not all level 9 spells are good (hello weird).

Some classes will have overlapping abilities sadly, that gets harder with more classes. But since it's in testing phase we should do our part to help make the class unique and not just a mix up of other class abilities that it plays better with. That doesn't speak well for the game as a whole since it shows a lack of creativity and a disregard of previous player centered creations before it.

The other classes are already out and the first, "fix" was the spell less ranger. I'm not sure if the sorcerer bloodlines in the previous UA's count because they were in UA (I can't remember if modifying classes was a UA or not. I don't think it was due to lack of pdf). So they probably are thinking about "fixing" certain classes. But I'm not sure where it is on the priority list.

To be honest you're the only person I've seen that puts down martials so hard. Other people have pointed out unbalance, and they've thought of fixes. You seem to want them gone entirely, at least those without magic of some sorts. That only leaves the paladin left considering how messed up ranger is.

I would like to know what you think a fighter should be. I never got your view on that and it might be helpful to understand your point of view better.

I apologize for the bias I've shown to you before. Bias solves nothing.

It isn't that Martials need to equal Casters (wish spell). Martial need to be allowed the same liberties as casters.

4e did something fantastic, you should really keep trying to play a martial in 4e. Play a 4e Fighter and see how it feels to play a martial class that can stand toe to toe along side the casters in a battle and not be a hindrance. Or, play a 3.5 Tome of Battle Crusader, Swordsage, or Warblade. These three classes also show what a fantasy martial can be. They have some great options and some sub par options... But generally you will be tier 3.

I put down martials because I've seen that they can be better. It would be like if someone gave you a Pepsi and then took that Pepsi away and gave you a watered down knock off of pepsi.

If the casters sucked in this edition I would be on their case. I love playing all sorts of different characters and it sucks that I will be a hindrance to friends if I pick a certain class/character archetype.

I was working on a Fighter change but have been thinking of a few things lately. Really Martials and Psionics could be one power source. Also a friend wanted a warblade/crusader so I refluffed the mystic and turned it into a martial powerhouse. Changed very little (gave extra attack at 5th level but also lethal strike, strike of perfect clarity, is 1/turn).

I see no need for apologizing on forums or else most of us (including me) would be typing that waaaaay to much :smalltongue:

[Ralanr]

I do agree that a high level martial should stand side by side with casters on high levels. Or casters stand back because they tend to be more squishy. :P

A power source would be nice, but one allure about martials is that they are still very functional without their power source. So if a power source was ever applied, it shouldn't be something that is 100% relied on. I think psionics tend to rely on their points too much, hence much of my disagreement.

I only played as far back as pathfinder, so I don't understand much of 3.5 beyond certain basics. That being said, much of your argument makes me wonder if there is a 5e version of tome of battle in the works.

Early in 5e a friend of mine voiced some complaint over the subclass system since it forces you to pick being a specific version of the class instead of being able to modify the base class as you level. After playing the warlock, I get his view a bit more. The invocations are truly fun for customization.

Feats were probably the attempt in the past, but they evolved into something else entirely that caused lots of problems. 5e feats are stronger, but the choice to have them is more impactful.

In class customization powers seem to work out very well.

[BRKNdevil]

Kinda wish that they went with at least 2 classes, maybe more for psionics.

[SharkForce]

pretty sure a lot of the fighter 11/mystic 5 being better than fighter 16 comes from fighter basically having so few valuable class features between 11 and 20.

no, seriously, fighter 11/ANYTHING (except fighter) 5 is probably better than fighter 16. unless you interpret that second fighter 5 to mean getting the level 1-5 abilities a second time, in which case, the fighter would in fact be better off with those first 5 levels a second time as well.

between level 11 and level 16, you get one extra ASI, one extra use of indomitable which is mostly trash, and one martial archetype ability.

now, let's imagine that instead of fighter, we took 5 levels of rogue. oh hey look, 3d6 bonus damage that is super reliable, expertise on some skills, dash as a bonus action, bonus proficiencies, and an archetype feature.

or 5 levels of barbarian. fast movement, 3 rages per day that can make you ridiculously tough, reckless attack, danger sense (ok, danger sense isn't great, but it comes paired with reckless attack which is amazing), and fast movement.

heck, let's try something completely outrageous and add 5 levels of WIZARD to a non-EK fighter. 3/day haste, 3/day enlarge person, 4/day shield (among other options at each of those levels), 4 cantrips to provide interesting utility, wizard rituals of level 1-3, and the first arcane school ability (abjuration is probably going to be popular, but divination is amazing in its own way too). if we add to EK, you can just keep adding hastes all day.


try comparing it to a class that *isn't* dead between levels 11 and 20 (well, ok, action surge is so amazing that there is a spark of life at level 17 as well).

[Dontdestroyme]

Level 15 of fighter is generally good. Level 17 for two action surges is insane.

But yes figniter barely improves itself compared to the improvement that is level 11. Not like full casters getting a new crazy spell every other level.

[SharkForce]

Level 15 of fighter is generally good. Level 17 for two action surges is insane.

But yes figniter barely improves itself compared to the improvement that is level 11. Not like full casters getting a new crazy spell every other level.

level 15 is either a short range teleport as part of action surge (which is nice, i guess, but not exactly mind-blowing) or 2 maneuvers you didn't care about enough to take the last two times you could choose and a superiority die or a slight increase to your critical hit chance, which is again, nice, but not exactly mind-blowing.

level 17 is, like i said, a spark of life in an otherwise dead zone. i certainly can't argue that more action surge is not good. but i can certainly argue that it isn't worth getting so little for the rest of that time span. if the back half of fighter was like the first half of fighter, there'd be a lot fewer people saying you should go fighter 11/mystic 5.

which brings me back to my original point. the reason mystic looks good as a multiclass for fighter is that you basically have to deliberately try to find a multiclass build that doesn't look better than fighter does after 11. that's not a problem with mystic. that's a problem with fighter. now, if someone is finding that monk 11/mystic 5 is better than monk 16, i'll start to worry. but fighter? well, the only reason i can remotely see to go past fighter 11 instead of multiclassing elsewhere is that you really want the champion capstone.

[Giant2005]

now, if someone is finding that monk 11/mystic 5 is better than monk 16, i'll start to worry.

Then you should be absolutely worried.
It would be a pretty weak argument to think that Monk 16 was better thank Monk 11/Mystic 5... I mean what do you get from Monk 12-16? The ability to speak any language? The Mystic has the superior version which is speak any language telepathically, it also gets Timeless Body which is a Ribbon ability without any practical use. The only thing the Monk gets during those levels which is worth anything is Diamond Soul. Diamond Soul is certainly better than Strength of Mind but is it really more powerful than Strength of Mind + 5 levels of an incredibly powerful class? Most people would think not. It'd be a pretty hard sale just to convince someone that Diamond Soul was better than Strength of Mind + Psionic Regeneration but there isn't any hope at all of selling the pure Monk concept when you consider that against AC 20, the Mystic/Monk combo does 56% more damage against AC 20 than a straight level 16 Monk does (And can boost that difference even further with Smite damage).

[Steampunkette]

Meh.

Now have that Monk at 11 take 5 levels of Fighter. Or 5 levels of Druid. The first 5 levels of every class are packed because they represent the levels that determine the identity foundation of that class.

Now give a level 11 Wizard or Sorceror those 5 levels. Go ahead and delay those 7th and 8th level learned spells while you play around with mind games and no spell slot increases whatsoever since the class doesn't even have an arcane subkit.

Declaring a class OP because of multiclassing is kinda short sighted. Look at the class on its own merits, first. Then look at it as compares to other class features of the same level.

[Giant2005]

Meh.

Now have that Monk at 11 take 5 levels of Fighter. Or 5 levels of Druid. The first 5 levels of every class are packed because they represent the levels that determine the identity foundation of that class.

Now give a level 11 Wizard or Sorceror those 5 levels. Go ahead and delay those 7th and 8th level learned spells while you play around with mind games and no spell slot increases whatsoever since the class doesn't even have an arcane subkit.

Declaring a class OP because of multiclassing is kinda short sighted. Look at the class on its own merits, first. Then look at it as compares to other class features of the same level.

Even casters are probably better off dipping Mystic than staying pure although it is far more suited for Martials (With the exception of the Barbarian) and I wouldn't advise dipping too heavily - one level should give them plenty without delaying things too much. That one level brings them their Con save proficiency; resourceless, permanent, super-powerful telepathy that allows you to converse regardless of the language barrier and even with those incapable of language (That is multiple spells all rolled into one without having to use a single slot); resourceless advantage on all Charisma checks (Which is absolutely amazing for Cha-based casters), and an ability that is basically the same as Zone of Truth.
It is worth the level.

[Citan]

So we need to fix the cleric and bard?

Knowledge clerics can damage and make the GOO Warlock cry.

How about instead of pulling a 4e, where we lower casters to the level of martials, we push martials up to the level of casters.

The Psionic class may be able to change around and do different things but they can't do it all at once. Give that sort of caster flexibility to the martial classes and we will have a system where everyone is on the same level without the glass ceiling.
Hi!
I've been wondering, what build did you refer to in your reference to Knowledge clerics in comparison to GOO Warlocks? Really didn't understand what you meant.

Otherwise, I also agree that a "stance" or other martial resource could be a nice addition to martial classes, although some archetypes already provide some variety in playstyle (Battlemaster, Elemental Monk, EK and Trickster Rogue).

By the way, if we take the Mystic as is... Let's Imagine a Devotion Paladin + Immortal Mystic with 20 STR and 20 CHA (rest just enough to multiclass).
Some people say that Psionic Concentration and Arcane Concentration are different (which I find strange, but well). If that's the case, would it be legit to consider that you can cumulate Sacred Weapon (Channel Divinity, no concentration) + Elemental Weapon (Arcane, concentration) + Psionic Augmented Weapon? Meaning a bonus to attack roll of +5+2+3 just from abilities. Pretty nice bonus to hit. ^^

Would also work with only 3lvl Paladin for Sacred Weapon and lvl11 EK Fighter (for Magic Weapon and 3 attacks) or basically any concentration spell providing extra chance to hit or damage...

Seems to me that being able to Concentrate on a Discipline AND Concentrate on a spell would be very funny but potentially too powerful considering all the nice buff/debuff spells available. ^^

[weaseldust]

I can't help but think that, if the Fighter had never been included in the basic rules and PHB and the first 5 levels were released now, it would also look like a major threat to the balance of the game and a no-brainer for multi-classing. The same goes for the Warlock (actually, the Warlock is maybe a bit too attractive for multi-classing, but it's not as bad as it would look from the first 5 levels). So I'm happy to just wait for the remaining levels of the mystic before judging.


I don't see taking 5 levels of Immortal for Surge of Action as being significantly superior to taking 5 levels of Sorcerer for Haste. 5 psi points is the equivalent of 5 spell points, or a 3rd level slot, i.e. one use of Haste. Haste takes an action to cast, unless you quicken it, but as long as it lasts more than 3 rounds you get more extra attacks out of it than you do from Surge of Action. You don't get the same peak damage, but you do get other benefits from Haste, and because you have 5 levels as a spell-caster you could just cast another spell, like Fireball, instead if you wanted loads of damage in one go.

Worse, you could just take one level of Warlock to get Hex, which will add a similar amount of damage to an extra attack action over only two rounds, if you use Action Surge on the first, and only requires a bonus action to cast.

I do, however, think that Lethal Strike ought to be restricted to once per turn (I assume that the psi point maximum is per use, not per turn) to prevent massive splurging on damage with dual wielding and extra attacks. (I wonder if the Immortal will actually get a second attack given that it's built on the same chassis as the awakened mystic, who seems to be intended to have a similar role to a full caster? Perhaps they will at level 6, like the Valour Bard and Favoured Soul, while the awakened mystic gets to add their intelligence bonus to Mind Thrust to copy dragon sorcerers and evokers?) I'd also prefer it if the damage were in terms of d8s, the same as Mind Thrust.


On an unrelated note, I worried at first that the awakened mystic's telepathy made learning languages obsolete, but now it seems to me that it's not such a big deal, because you can only communicate telepathically with one being at a time, and no-one else can hear, and unprepared creatures are unlikely to take kindly to being addressed telepathically.

EDIT: I was also surprised that the awakened mystic's mind control is opposed using intelligence saves, not wisdom saves, especially since the mystics themselves aren't automatically proficient with intelligence saves. On the one hand, it's good that intelligence saves become more common, but on the other, it's weird that the only psionic class is less well adapted for resisting psionic mind control than the Wizard is.

[DireSickFish]

If they -do- get a second attack then Lethal Strike damage should be limited to 1/round. But from what I'm seeing I don't think that they will. I do wonder what the big power spike at lvl11 will be for the class.

[weaseldust]

I do wonder what the big power spike at lvl11 will be for the class.

Perhaps extra damage to every hit, like the Cleric and Paladin? Or perhaps some area-of-effect ability like the Ranger? It's hard to estimate what will happen after level 10. All classes slow down there, and their best powers from that point on should resemble spells of level 6 and higher, which shouldn't be usable more than once per day.

[SharkForce]

Then you should be absolutely worried.
It would be a pretty weak argument to think that Monk 16 was better thank Monk 11/Mystic 5... I mean what do you get from Monk 12-16? The ability to speak any language? The Mystic has the superior version which is speak any language telepathically, it also gets Timeless Body which is a Ribbon ability without any practical use. The only thing the Monk gets during those levels which is worth anything is Diamond Soul. Diamond Soul is certainly better than Strength of Mind but is it really more powerful than Strength of Mind + 5 levels of an incredibly powerful class? Most people would think not. It'd be a pretty hard sale just to convince someone that Diamond Soul was better than Strength of Mind + Psionic Regeneration but there isn't any hope at all of selling the pure Monk concept when you consider that against AC 20, the Mystic/Monk combo does 56% more damage against AC 20 than a straight level 16 Monk does (And can boost that difference even further with Smite damage).

ok, so let's see what the monk gets from those 5 levels. [edit: deleted a portion of the post here that was unlikely to add anything valuable to the discussion]

as noted, tongue of the sun and moon works on a group of creatures at a time, not just one. it is actually a rather powerful social tool, especially since it doesn't require that you cast a spell (potentially viewed as a hostile act) to use it.
diamond soul is *ridiculously* good.
timeless body is great when you need it, but agreed, mostly nothing.

you got those. but you missed some important things:

1) you can move faster
2) you gained 5 ki.

now that last one there... that is pretty important. it's almost a 50% boost in available resources. the celerity surge of action? that's nice. monks can already spend their bonus action to get two extra attacks, which is what an extra action would give. except that those 5 monk levels let the monk do that 5 times per short rest, while the mystic does that only 5 times per day. and the monk also uses that ki to power other abilities they have as well, which again lets the monk do a bunch of interesting things.

the mystic can add 5d10 damage 5 times per day to an attack? well, that's pretty nice too, no doubt. but the monk flurry of blows once again comes to the rescue. the monk can add 2d6+10 damage 5 times per short rest with the extra ki. if you're an open hand monk, you can knock them flat on their butt as well, and add to your own accuracy and the accuracy of anyone else hitting that target. mystic can improve their weapon to +3 for a minute? well, that is a pretty nice advantage. but monks can use their 5 extra ki to stun enemies up to 5 times per short rest. that's pretty damn amazing too. especially against their preferred targets, which will not be those giant melee juggernauts in the front line, but the squishy, vulnerable archers and casters in the back line. those 5 extra monk levels begin to free up your right ki budget for doing your awesome things much more frequently, and those awesome things are pretty close to the mystic's awesome things, except you get to do them a lot more often than the mystic would.

mystic really doesn't do all that much for monks. mostly, it gives them fewer resources over the course of the day to do the same kinds of things they could already do, and it pushes them further away from getting some really nice monk abilities afterwards. mystic just doesn't really add that much to monk, if anything at all, because monk already gains resources and abilities that are awesome in that level range. it still isn't quite *as* amazing as the level 1-5 curve, but it's a heck of a lot better than the fighter's 11-16 curve where the fighter gains barely anything at all. simply gaining more ki per short rest alone is better than most of what fighter 11-16 has to offer, and then you mix in proficiency in all saves plus the ability to reroll failed saves as well (not just saves against spells, either, but all saves, period).

[Zevox]

Kinda wish that they went with at least 2 classes, maybe more for psionics.
Agreed - I hope that they go with at least two, when all is said and done. I don't want them to try and force Psion and Psychic Warrior (for instance) to just be subclasses of one class, rather than letting the subclasses represent cool variations on the Psion and Psychic Warrior, the way most other subclasses are.

Also, I've gotta say, as it stands, the Psion version looks... kinda boring. As far as direct combat goes, their only real tool is Mind Thrust. They have the defensive discipline I guess, but that's, again, boring. The other two disciplines are flavorful, but not exciting - and I think there's likely some serious balance issues with the 3pp ability of the mind reading/control discipline, since taken at face value, it looks far stronger than any charm spell, and could possibly be argued to work as actual mind control with the right wording of the statement. Of course, more disciplines could change this, but at the moment, I don't find myself eager to try this out, even though I am a fan of psionics generally.

Also, minor thing I know, but I hope they change the name. Just call it a Psion. When I hear "Mystic," I think "generic spellcaster," not "psychic guy." Or I think of 3.5's Mystic Theurge, which isn't any better.

[Gnomes2169]

Anyone else getting the feeling that the Knife will encompass the kineticist and soulknife, while the other announced but undeveloped subclass is likely to be the nomad and lurk?

For the actual material itself, it's very obvious that (balance wise) this is a veeeeeery early playtest version of the class. However, the core idea of the psionic disciplines themselves is interesting, and I look forward to seeing a more complete version of the classes. As the subclasses stand so far:

-Awakend mind could use a few more active combat abilities. Mind thrust, while it can be useful, does only average damage to a single target, and doesn't scale all too well compared to other single-target spells or abilities, and it deals psychic damage (almost as resisted as fire). It targetting int instead of being an int-save is stupid, however. As for the ability to ignore full cover... And? The mystic still cannot target a creature it cannot see (which is probably why tremor sense, which allows the creature to see through objects like walls and closed doors, has a cost). The 1 round mind control should be upgraded to a level 4 spell cost, but as of now it is the equivalent of a lesser dominate person, cast with a level 3 slot.

-Immortal has... A lot going for it. Celerity is not really all too good once combat has started (no, surge of action is not usable with the other disciplines which make your attacks actually do something), but can easily get you the first action, negates surprise rounds and is just generally useful. Their smite-like augment is entirely too much, and should cost 2 psi points per d10 beyond the first (bringing the max from x+13d10 to x+7d10) and be usable 1/ round. The scaling on the damage and attack bonus augment should be smoothed out (can purchase +2 for 7 points at level 9, and +3 for 13 points at level 17). The immortal should not get fast healing if they also get the ability to spend hit dice outside of short rests. The immortal could get extra attack at level 6 without impacting balance too much, and it would go a small way to giving a reason to stay in Celerity after combat starts (being able to trade one bonus action attack for two action attacks makes surge of action a bit better for the mystic itself). From what I'm able to tell, these quick changes would go a long way to fixing some of the balance problems a pure Mystic Immortal 5 has (multi-classed fighter problems aside. Because fighter is bad at level 12-16, and should feel bad. Or get fixed (just needs a few small changes)).

Also, count me in the camp that wants the class's name to be changed to Psion.

[SharkForce]

mind thrust merely requires that you perceive the target, not see it. there are plenty of ways to perceive targets. for example, if you can hear them, you perceive them. if you have some sort of ability to detect things (for example, if you can detect magic on a person with a spell cast), you can perceive living creatures without seeing them. if you have some sort of ability to look through another creature's eyes, you can use that to target mind thrust.

it's pretty scary.

[Nifft]

for example, if you can hear them, you perceive them.

"Argh!"

A student's head explodes.

"... and that's why nobody talks in my class."

[Ralanr]

"Argh!"

A student's head explodes.

"... and that's why nobody talks in my class."

And that's why no one takes your class anymore.
-The Principal.

[Steampunkette]

Crystal Ball + Mind Thrust = Psionic Assassin

[Inevitability]

Crystal Ball + Mind Thrust = Psionic Assassin

I really want to spring that on my players now, but I think they'd murder me for it.

[SharkForce]

I really want to spring that on my players now, but I think they'd murder me for it.

right, and this is the sort of thing that makes me say that the broken part is not the damage. it's the fact that you can kill things through walls. very slowly, yes, but you can.

[CyberThread]

With how it is setup, could someone be phased and use mindthrust? Like some sort of etheral form and then fling mind bolts?

[Draken]

Anyone else getting the feeling that the Knife will encompass the kineticist and soulknife, while the other announced but undeveloped subclass is likely to be the nomad and lurk?

For the actual material itself, it's very obvious that (balance wise) this is a veeeeeery early playtest version of the class. However, the core idea of the psionic disciplines themselves is interesting, and I look forward to seeing a more complete version of the classes. As the subclasses stand so far:

-Awakend mind could use a few more active combat abilities. Mind thrust, while it can be useful, does only average damage to a single target, and doesn't scale all too well compared to other single-target spells or abilities, and it deals psychic damage (almost as resisted as fire). It targetting int instead of being an int-save is stupid, however. As for the ability to ignore full cover... And? The mystic still cannot target a creature it cannot see (which is probably why tremor sense, which allows the creature to see through objects like walls and closed doors, has a cost). The 1 round mind control should be upgraded to a level 4 spell cost, but as of now it is the equivalent of a lesser dominate person, cast with a level 3 slot.

-Immortal has... A lot going for it. Celerity is not really all too good once combat has started (no, surge of action is not usable with the other disciplines which make your attacks actually do something), but can easily get you the first action, negates surprise rounds and is just generally useful. Their smite-like augment is entirely too much, and should cost 2 psi points per d10 beyond the first (bringing the max from x+13d10 to x+7d10) and be usable 1/ round. The scaling on the damage and attack bonus augment should be smoothed out (can purchase +2 for 7 points at level 9, and +3 for 13 points at level 17). The immortal should not get fast healing if they also get the ability to spend hit dice outside of short rests. The immortal could get extra attack at level 6 without impacting balance too much, and it would go a small way to giving a reason to stay in Celerity after combat starts (being able to trade one bonus action attack for two action attacks makes surge of action a bit better for the mystic itself). From what I'm able to tell, these quick changes would go a long way to fixing some of the balance problems a pure Mystic Immortal 5 has (multi-classed fighter problems aside. Because fighter is bad at level 12-16, and should feel bad. Or get fixed (just needs a few small changes)).

Also, count me in the camp that wants the class's name to be changed to Psion.

Just a heads-up, Lethal Strike has a built-in cap of 5 pp.

[SharkForce]

With how it is setup, could someone be phased and use mindthrust? Like some sort of etheral form and then fling mind bolts?

depends. if it's like the monk's level 18 ability, yes. if it fully sends them to the ethereal, pretty sure the rules say no. planar boundaries are not the same thing as cover.

[Daishain]

Also, I've gotta say, as it stands, the Psion version looks... kinda boring. As far as direct combat goes, their only real tool is Mind Thrust. .My players would take umbrage with this. I decided to spice things up recently and included a level five mystic working with their enemy. (players were level 6)

Said mystic detected their presence, ripped mission critical information from the fighter, then fled on horseback to warn his compatriots. Between the mind thrusts, disadvantage on several attacks, and retaliatory psychic damage, he was a pain in the arse to chase down. But the real clincher came when the mystic dominated the paladin into killing the fighter's horse and then leaping off his own mount. The chase might have been over at that point, but the one player left in the running finally smacked the mystic down with eldritch blast.

[Zevox]

My players would take umbrage with this. I decided to spice things up recently and included a level five mystic working with their enemy. (players were level 6)

Said mystic detected their presence, ripped mission critical information from the fighter, then fled on horseback to warn his compatriots. Between the mind thrusts, disadvantage on several attacks, and retaliatory psychic damage, he was a pain in the arse to chase down. But the real clincher came when the mystic dominated the paladin into killing the fighter's horse and then leaping off his own mount. The chase might have been over at that point, but the one player left in the running finally smacked the mystic down with eldritch blast.
Yeah, that's the thing - he was mind-reading and then running away. That's different from contributing to a typical party during a typical D&D fight, which is what I was referring to. (Also, personally, I wouldn't be willing to use mind-control abilities if I were playing a good-aligned character, which I usually do.)

[EggKookoo]

I swear I'm not Angry in disguise.

http://theangrygm.com/ask-angry-why-do-psionics-suck/

[Anlashok]

I swear I'm not Angry in disguise.

http://theangrygm.com/ask-angry-why-do-psionics-suck/

That's a pretty long winded and whiny way to just say "things I don't like and have trouble understanding are bad".

Also Warlocks didn't even have spell slots in third edition and their spell slots work pretty differently in fifth so I'm not sure why he's claiming they function exactly the same as wizards.

[Ralanr]

The concept of where magic comes from is actually something I discuss with a friend of mine (who wants psionics). For him the magic comes from within the person and everyone has it (thus spells like antimagic zone are things he hates). I'm on the side that magic is within the world and is drawn from it.

If the former is true, then how are psionics different?

[Daishain]

The concept of where magic comes from is actually something I discuss with a friend of mine (who wants psionics). For him the magic comes from within the person and everyone has it (thus spells like antimagic zone are things he hates). I'm on the side that magic is within the world and is drawn from it.

If the former is true, then how are psionics different?
Within the default D&D setting, I'm afraid your friend is mistaken. Magic explicitly comes from outside the caster. It utilizes the weave, kind of a background field of energy, it formerly was a product of the goddess of magic. (in fact, when said goddess was killed, spellcasters everywhere got shafted for a while.)

Psionics are a form of purely mental magic, and do not make use of the weave. Its exact nature is not well defined, but generally speaking the energy for it does come from within the wielder.

[Naanomi]

Varies from setting to setting (and edition to edition) but generally magic comes from outside, and psionics are drawn from an internal source; though the end results are similar enough that many effects treat them as the same in practice (dispelling, not working near the Spire, etc)

[ImperiousLeader]

I swear I'm not Angry in disguise.

http://theangrygm.com/ask-angry-why-do-psionics-suck/

I don't completely disagree with the article, but then, I like Eberron and Dark Sun, and find the "Fantasy Fantasy" argument a canard. "Traditional Fantasy" is such a made up word that has all the feeling of "in the good old days that only existed in my head" to me.

I understand that Psionics is different, but I find that enriching. It makes the DnD toolbox bigger, allowing more variety in characters, campaign and setting. As a bit of a rules nerd, I like alternate casting systems. Sure, magic is magic, and the average NPC on the street isn't going to really understand the differences between a Psionic wielding Mystic, or an Arcane Sorcerer. But that's okay, I don't expect them to know the difference between International Standard and American Smooth style ballroom dance either, and I'm not saying only one should exist.

Ultimately, I can run my campaigns wrongly, and so can Angry. But I still want the Psionic rules so I can continue to run my campaigns the wrong way. After all, I also allow bards and gnomes.

[-Jynx-]

The concept of where magic comes from is actually something I discuss with a friend of mine (who wants psionics). For him the magic comes from within the person and everyone has it (thus spells like antimagic zone are things he hates). I'm on the side that magic is within the world and is drawn from it.

If the former is true, then how are psionics different?

For me in my worlds it's always a bit of both. Magic exists ambiently that can be drawn from, and some are born/bestowed with magic in them. Wizards, Druids, Rangers, Arcane tricksters, and eldritch knights would in my world all harness magic from the world while Clerics, paladins, sorcerers and warlocks (though warlocks is kind of up in the air for me) all draw magic from within.

Psionics in my world is a bit different. Some people are born with a complex level of psionics and most are born with such a minuscule level of psionics that its obsolete, but technically everyone 'has' it.... just the vast majority of people don't have enough psionic strength to tap into it. Occasionally you'd find someone who is a teleptah or a telekinetic only with no other psionic prowess.

[Ralanr]

I don't mind the concept of multiple different powers in the world, in fact it seems pretty realistic to me.

Balancing seperate subsystems is incredibly difficult though.

[EggKookoo]

I don't allow psionics in my game for the same reason I don't allow space aliens, time travel, cybernetics, and machine guns. I'm just not a "kitchen sink" kind of person.

[-Jynx-]

I'm just not a "kitchen sink" kind of person.

That's a weird way to spell boring.

:smallbiggrin:

[EggKookoo]

That's a weird way to spell boring.

:smallbiggrin:

I didn't say I don't play games with space aliens, time travel, cybernetics, machine guns, and psionics. I just don't mash them together without consideration for focus, theme, and genre.

I like chicken soup. I also like ice cream. I prefer them in separate bowls, as, I'm very sure, do most people for sensible reasons. It's not like I haven't tried "kitchen sink" approaches to games. They smack of creative cowardice, like the player can't make a decision so he just includes everything.

Edit: For those inclined to take my list literally, I mean I don't include those things in my D&D games. They may or may not fit with each other, depending on the setting.

[Naanomi]

I like psionics in my setting because it can be different, unexpected. Magic is widely practiced, PCs know about it... Psionics can bring back a 'unknown and mysterious' vibe if used sparingly. Plus there is a nation that uses it heavily in my setting (tends to kidnap people who have the gift and install them in the 'priesthood') that was missing it, so I am glad to have a return on the horizon

[Zevox]

Within the default D&D setting, I'm afraid your friend is mistaken. Magic explicitly comes from outside the caster. It utilizes the weave, kind of a background field of energy, it formerly was a product of the goddess of magic. (in fact, when said goddess was killed, spellcasters everywhere got shafted for a while.)
That's the Forgotten Realms specifically. (And I could go on about why that last was stupid, but won't.) D&D in general has never really spelt out a specific source for arcane magic - it's left up to being a setting-specific thing.


I don't allow psionics in my game for the same reason I don't allow space aliens, time travel, cybernetics, and machine guns. I'm just not a "kitchen sink" kind of person.
You know, I have never understood the viewpoint that psionics somehow does not fit with D&D, or fantasy in general. It's just a variation on magic, essentially, coming from the person's mind instead of from chanting magic words and waving your arms around. Heck, there are core D&D spells do the very sorts of things that are typical examples of classic psionic abilities, like mind reading or mind control.

[EggKookoo]

Psionics can bring back a 'unknown and mysterious' vibe if used sparingly.

I read this as allowing psionic monsters/NPCs but not psionic PCs. I'd allow this, but it would be rare. Probably the focus of the campaign (think the Mule from Asimov's Foundation series).


You know, I have never understood the viewpoint that psionics somehow does not fit with D&D, or fantasy in general. It's just a variation on magic, essentially, coming from the person's mind instead of from chanting magic words and waving your arms around. Heck, there are core D&D spells do the very sorts of things that are typical examples of classic psionic abilities, like mind reading or mind control.

If it's just another variation on magic (which I agree with), then pretty much by definition it's just fluff, which is fine. But fluff doesn't need its own game mechanic -- use some equivalent of spell slots/points or whatever.

As I said above, to anyone not educated in magic, psionics IS magic. The peon in the field doesn't know you used psionics instead of "the weave" to do something.

[Zevox]

If it's just another variation on magic (which I agree with), then pretty much by definition it's just fluff, which is fine. But fluff doesn't need its own game mechanic -- use some equivalent of spell slots/points or whatever.
That I don't agree with. It's more interesting and fun to have different mechanics for different fluff, particularly in a case like this, where not all magic should be able to be replicated by psionics and vice-versa.


As I said above, to anyone not educated in magic, psionics IS magic. The peon in the field doesn't know you used psionics instead of "the weave" to do something.
Sure. But what does that matter?

[GiantOctopodes]

I read this as allowing psionic monsters/NPCs but not psionic PCs. I'd allow this, but it would be rare. Probably the focus of the campaign (think the Mule from Asimov's Foundation series).



If it's just another variation on magic (which I agree with), then pretty much by definition it's just fluff, which is fine. But fluff doesn't need its own game mechanic -- use some equivalent of spell slots/points or whatever.

As I said above, to anyone not educated in magic, psionics IS magic. The peon in the field doesn't know you used psionics instead of "the weave" to do something.

I actually hold the opposite opinion. I can do without the crystals, the whole mind magic thing, all of it. It's the different mechanics that interest me. Psionics have always been about versatile, non-vancian magic. 5e moves a *lot* closer to this already, and the Sorcerer flat out adopts elements of that system. But the idea of spell points and all of that was *way* more balanced in 3.5 than traditional slot based casting, and on top of that, lacking Wish and the other ridiculous, OP spells, Psionics was just a better system than magic outright. Thus my love of Dark Sun, as frankly, the game is more balanced if you had psionics and *didn't* have magic. The fluff was an acceptable trade off to get those improved mechanics.

I don't know what psionics will look like in 5e. They failed to impress in 2e and 4e, and the preview of them doesn't exactly tickle my fancy. But the concept of it as a replacement for magic is why I'm interested in it, and I hope it's done well. The fluff I can live with but could just as easily leave by the wayside.

[Zevox]

[...]and on top of that, lacking Wish and the other ridiculous, OP spells,
:smallconfused: Um, Psionics had their own version of Wish in 3rd edition. Reality Revision.

[SharkForce]

That's the Forgotten Realms specifically. (And I could go on about why that last was stupid, but won't.) D&D in general has never really spelt out a specific source for arcane magic - it's left up to being a setting-specific thing.


You know, I have never understood the viewpoint that psionics somehow does not fit with D&D, or fantasy in general. It's just a variation on magic, essentially, coming from the person's mind instead of from chanting magic words and waving your arms around. Heck, there are core D&D spells do the very sorts of things that are typical examples of classic psionic abilities, like mind reading or mind control.

- iirc, the weave is specifically mentioned as the source of magic in the core books for 5th edition. pretty sure it's the PHB, but I could be wrong.

- funny thing, various RL mythologies fit a *lot* more closely with psionics than anything like vancian magic does from what I'm told. the only reason we think magic is fantasy and psionics is not is basically because of the cultural influence of D&D on us. if we didn't have D&D, we'd probably all be like "what the heck is this stupid fireball thing? nobody ever does that in fantasy, where did they pull this BS from?".

[GiantOctopodes]

:smallconfused: Um, Psionics had their own version of Wish in 3rd edition. Reality Revision.

Haha, fair point, oops :smalleek:

I got rid of that power so I guess I tend to forget about it. Not that one couldn't do the same with spells, of course, but there were *so many* spells added with all the splat books, there were strange and odd interactions everywhere you turned. So I guess it would be more fair to say that it is easier to have a well balanced system using Psionics than magic, imho.

[Ralanr]

Wasn't it because psionics were introduced through a pseudo science expansion?

If not, then it's definitely a cultural thing. Psychic powers must be strictly science fiction

[EggKookoo]

Wasn't it because psionics were introduced through a pseudo science expansion?

If not, then it's definitely a cultural thing. Psychic powers must be strictly science fiction

Psionics as we think of them is a 20th century new age invention. It's essentially a modern explanation for what had previously been labeled as magic. Of course, once we went down that road, people had to differentiate between that and "true" magic. This would be kind of like going from the humor theory to germ theory of health, then reinventing humor theory as something distinct and equal to germ theory, rather than an obsolete model that was replaced by it.

Psionics was later folded into fantasy but it was born from a science fiction background. It always makes me think of secret Soviet experiments and Ghostbusters.

[Gnomes2169]

- iirc, the weave is specifically mentioned as the source of magic in the core books for 5th edition. pretty sure it's the PHB, but I could be wrong.

- funny thing, various RL mythologies fit a *lot* more closely with psionics than anything like vancian magic does from what I'm told. the only reason we think magic is fantasy and psionics is not is basically because of the cultural influence of D&D on us. if we didn't have D&D, we'd probably all be like "what the heck is this stupid fireball thing? nobody ever does that in fantasy, where did they pull this BS from?".

Well remember, the default setting in 5e is the forgotten realms, so listing the source of arcane magic as the weave is just another way to affirm the base "assumed" setting. As far as the major settings go, I believe that only greyhawk and the forgotten realms (two settings that share a lot of things, like multiple deities such as Tiamat and Bahamut, and then travel between the settings being listed plot points) are the only two D&D settings that have a "weave" within them. Not sure if Ravenloft also has a perverse form of the weave as well, but that setting is terrifying and seeks to mess with the players as much as their characters, so it very well could exist for one character but not another.

And the second point honestly makes sense. Look at the Wheel of Time, the Lord of the Rings, everything by Saderson and the Shannara series (specifically everything dealing with the Knights of the Word and then the magic of the Druids). All of these reflect far more "typical" styles of magic than the D&D vancian magic... Which literally only exists in one specific setting outside of D&D, written by one specific author (Vance, hence the name). The idea of "slots" honestly would be alien if the series didn't exist for Gygax to snag and make into a game mechanic, as fantasy seems to work more often with inner reserves and personal stamina than it does with arbitrary and invisible "slots." So mechanics wise, psionics and their power points have always felt more in-line with traditional fantasy tropes than default casting imo.

Fluff wise, well, in 1-3e at least, it was an inborn spark of talent that every creature could possess, but that only a few could awaken. The power of imagination and will that could literally shape the world around the practitioner. The awakening itself has ties to the far realms, abberations and other places of madness, power or other mysterious forces, but is not exclusive to them. And again, looking at fantasy... This is still a familiar trend.

Gandalf and Saruman in Lord of the Rings (along with many of the elves) relied on their natural given talents, beings of power just exerted their will to shape the world around them, and only the impure and fallen race of men had to rely solely upon study to perform feats of magic (though even among them, the Numenorian, the line of kings, was magical in nature, as shown by the curse on the dead soldiers of the mountain pass). Everything was based off of the spirit and the lineage of the caster, and power was based on belief, purity (or depravity) and will. Spells did not fill "slots" in heads, they functioned as an extension of the caster's self.

In the wheel of time, we have what is basically the weave (the "pattern"), which people could influence to create magical effects (channelers, consciously) or just shape the world around them (ta'veren, passively... usually). However such magic was not the subject of rituals, faith or incantation, but rather was a combination of elements and will, drawing power from the subject's spirit and sometimes body, refined through practice, and limited only by a channeler's potential (and the potential of other channelers if they decided to link). While most commonly it was a talent that developed on its own, there are hints that it can also be instilled within or discovered by a rather sizable chunk of the "normal" population as well... Much like every person is potentially psionic in D&D land

In Shannara, magic draws strength from the life and body of the user. Druids learn their magic from study and practice, while most other people need some kind of magical item to channel their will (like the Elfstones, pr the Sword of Leah), but all magic draws on and enhances the user's own strength. There is even divine magic in the form of the Knights of the Word (though by Shannara times, the knights have been long dead and no longer exist), where the knight carries a staff to channel their holy power, is sent phrophetic dreams that tell them what kind of task they must succeed in or the world will burn, and they draw upon the power of the Word, using the strength of their body, spirit and conviction to protect themselves and destroy demons and other servants of evil (the Void).

Heck, the closest thing to D&D spellcasting besides Vance's works would be Diskworld spellcasting, where the trick to magic is to not use magic. Though I'm willing to bet that Sir Terry was spoofing D&D when he made diskworld magic! But even there, spells do not fill slots in a wizard's head. They instead flit into the wizard's head, taking up as much space as they take up, and forcing other spells out if there isn't room! So refined, smaller, less important spells are what most wizards learn, while others (like Rincewind) find their heads filled with only one or two incredibly important spells, which crowd out all other chances to learn magic until they are finally let out. But this style of magic is quite clearly labled dead magic in diskworld, and the far more potent and typical fantasy magic rears its head in the book Sourcery. Sourcerers are literal fonts of magic, bound only by their imagination, who break the rules of magic and reality, and who bring living magic to those who follow them. No spells remain locked in heads. No rituals or limitations exist beyond what the magic user can think. And it is dangerous because of that. Which is why Sourcery was dead in the first place, and why the world likes it when everything goes back to the normal ho-hum of dead magic and stuffy old pointless wizards with their collections of (basically) cantrips.

So I'm not sure why people feel like psionics only belong in science fiction. They seem to closely resemble most magic systems, from drawing on the person's inner reserves (whether it be body, willpower, soul or life force), are mostly limited by creativity (whether interacting with a pattern, shaping the gifts granted by a higher power or just using the rituals known in odd and new ways) and are sparks of talent that only a few can channel and master (from being granted them by a higher power, learning them or just being born with them). It just doesn't seem to me like these things are limited to science!!!!!!!!!, and I honestly wonder where that comes from.

[Scarab112]

So I'm not sure why people feel like psionics only belong in science fiction..

I think it's due to the fact that science fiction is far more likely to use psionics, or at least rely more on 'typical' psionic effects. When you think of psionics, you probably think of telepathy and telekinesis.

Star Wars has the force, and while it's mystical in nature, it mostly does those things. You sense thoughts and feelings from far away, trick the weak-minded, and move things from a distance.

Star Trek has had its fair share of telepaths over the years.

The X-Men have a multitude of telepathic or telekinetic members, and that's all biology.

Mass Effect has Biotics, which are Psionics in all but name.


Basically, I think the thing is that when you say Psionics or telepathy, people jump to these stories in more modern or futuristic times. Superheros and space operas are where you find most of them. I'd say it's mostly a problem with the name. If they were 'mentalists' or 'willshapers' you'd get a lot less people saying they didn't fit.

[Daishain]

Basically, I think the thing is that when you say Psionics or telepathy, people jump to these stories in more modern or futuristic times. Superheros and space operas are where you find most of them. I'd say it's mostly a problem with the name. If they were 'mentalists' or 'willshapers' you'd get a lot less people saying they didn't fit.
Probably why they are 'mystics' this time around.

Personally, never had a problem with the concept or the name. Frankly, it is far from the most anachronistic concept in the setting.

[EggKookoo]

I don't mind the anachronism; I was just trying to help explain why it feels anachronistic.

Psionics and psychic powers as we think of them are an outgrowth of 19th century neurological science. The idea that your brain is the source of your power is a very modern idea. It's a good idea, but to my mind it doesn't really fit into a world with "found" magic -- meaning magic is sourced outside the caster and is essentially an impersonal part of the fabric of reality. It's kind of like the evolution vs. creation debate. You can't really have both -- one kind of supplants the other.

Gods can use psionic powers. Mortals get their power from the gods (or nature, or something along those lines). I'm fine with psionic monsters that the PCs need to fight. I just don't want any psionic PCs.

I could allow psionics in my campaign but then I would probably ban the other magic types, or re-cast them as some kind of flavor of psionics (and probably ditch spell slots for the spell points option in the DMG). But my players haven't asked for this and I don't feel the need myself.

[MeeposFire]

Asking them to not have psionics is a complete non starter in D&D. It has been a part of D&D for a very long time since at least 1e AD&D if not before and there has been always a significant minority that loves it and would be very upset if it never got added to the game. Saying that psionics and D&D do not go together because they are not classical fantasy should be applied to other things but we do not. Beholders are not a traditional fantasy monster until D&D had them. Beholders are about as traditionally fantastical as psionics as far as history is concerned.

Choosing not to use psionics is fine (and is a classic D&Dism actually) but I see no reason to not like that they are there. It is a D&D past time after all.

[EggKookoo]

Asking them to not have psionics is a complete non starter in D&D. It has been a part of D&D for a very long time since at least 1e AD&D[...]

As has been complaining about psionics.:smallwink:

[pwykersotz]

As has been complaining about psionics.:smallwink:

I thoroughly enjoy both, myself. :smallsmile:

[MeeposFire]

As has been complaining about psionics.:smallwink:

Indeed though the reasons for why change on every edition. 1e had them be too powerful. 2e had too many attempts and they are all fairly lack luster (though fun). 3e had insane MAD that made it too hard to use. 3.5 worked mechanically very well but had a reputation of being too powerful, though in fact it was less powerful than spell casting on the whole. Lastly 4e it also worked well though some did not like the spamming of 1st level attack powers rather than choosing later powers since the early powers were often as good or better than later powers.

What is fun is if you have a veteran of some of those older editions and you ask about psionics and it can get funny as they remember how broken it could be back then in 1e in particular lol.

[EggKookoo]

Indeed though the reasons for why change on every edition. 1e had them be too powerful. 2e had too many attempts and they are all fairly lack luster (though fun). 3e had insane MAD that made it too hard to use. 3.5 worked mechanically very well but had a reputation of being too powerful, though in fact it was less powerful than spell casting on the whole. Lastly 4e it also worked well though some did not like the spamming of 1st level attack powers rather than choosing later powers since the early powers were often as good or better than later powers.

What is fun is if you have a veteran of some of those older editions and you ask about psionics and it can get funny as they remember how broken it could be back then in 1e in particular lol.

I am such a veteran. My dislike for psionics stems from the 1e era, although back then I was just a player and had very little idea about how the mechanics worked beyond my own character (I never did understand how the DM determined how to-hit rolls worked). I just remember them being a pain for the DM to deal with, slowing down the game, and mostly the players who wanted to play psionicists being narcissists. It seemed at the time that the psionicist was inserted into the game solely to satisfy players who liked to cause headaches for the DM. I guess they have too much of a min/max flavor for me now.

I also think they're superfluous. Hey, I don't really like the monk class, either, and really wish it wasn't core, but you can't have everything.

[Nifft]

What is fun is if you have a veteran of some of those older editions and you ask about psionics and it can get funny as they remember how broken it could be back then in 1e in particular lol.

In 1e, the intended balance mechanism was that encounters with Psionic monsters were terrifying, since you had to pay to use your Defense Modes, which is like paying HP every round just to have an AC.

If you used Psionic powers, you were supposed to attract more Psionic monster encounters.

There was even a thing about how using psi-like spells (e.g. ESP) could attract such monsters.

If your DM never used Psionic monster encounters, yeah, the powers were hella strong. But that'd be like the DM not allowing Wizards to prepare all their spells in a single hour. It was a significant change that broke the (very precarious and possibly illusionary) balance of the game.

[Steampunkette]

I loves me some psionics. And I don't think there's anything anachronistic about them, whatsoever.

Even the naming. Sure it's based on Latin, but so are half or more of the words written on this board, and by extension the language of the NPCs of most game worlds. We also use a heck of a lot of german and french words without realizing it.

There's no reason to think someone wouldn't use Latin in the 800s if they used Latin in the 1900s so long as the concept itself exists.

Heh... Nimble Finger Ation.

[ghost_warlock]

I rather like this supplement, even if it is a bit powerful.

How WotC handles psionics and warlocks are my "make or break" with 5e. Thus far, I've been extremely let down with how repetitive warlocks are and how many of the invocations are fluff or trap abilities.

Hopefully, when the "awakened mystic" finally reaches print it won't be watered down and will be a fun class to play, which is really the entire point of making it in the first place.

[DracoKnight]

How WotC handles psionics and warlocks are my "make or break" with 5e. Thus far, I've been extremely let down with how repetitive warlocks are and how many of the invocations are fluff or trap abilities.

EDIT: The emphasis is mine.

Please, explain, because I find quite the opposite to be true.

[Fwiffo86]

So I'm not sure why people feel like psionics only belong in science fiction. They seem to closely resemble most magic systems, from drawing on the person's inner reserves (whether it be body, willpower, soul or life force), are mostly limited by creativity (whether interacting with a pattern, shaping the gifts granted by a higher power or just using the rituals known in odd and new ways) and are sparks of talent that only a few can channel and master (from being granted them by a higher power, learning them or just being born with them). It just doesn't seem to me like these things are limited to science!!!!!!!!!, and I honestly wonder where that comes from.

I think your hang up here is Vancian magic as opposed to PSI vs. MGK. Not that I'm saying there is a problem.

Essentially I see them as two sides of the same thing. Especially when you boil everything down.

Damage things - Evocation / Psychokinesis
Move things - Conjuration / Telekinesis/teleport
Know things - Divination / Clairsentience
Modify things - Transmutation / Biokinesis
Communicate with things - Tongues / Telepathy

What more do you need?

As long as the mechanics are different enough to feel "different" I don't see a problem.

[Ralanr]

The problem is balancing the different mechanics. Which isn't easy.

[ThermalSlapShot]

The problem is balancing the different mechanics. Which isn't easy.

If the core of your game is balanced, 4e, then when you make new stuff it is pretty darn easy to balance the new stuff.

However 5e wasn't intended to be balanced anymore than 3e (or it was and they failed horribly), they just streamlined some rules and it just looks a bit more balanced.

Wotc has only themselves to blame if they can't easily balance new stuff/mechanics.

[SharkForce]

If the core of your game is balanced, 4e, then when you make new stuff it is pretty darn easy to balance the new stuff.

However 5e wasn't intended to be balanced anymore than 3e (or it was and they failed horribly), they just streamlined some rules and it just looks a bit more balanced.

Wotc gas themselves to blame if they can't easily balance new stuff/mechanics.

eh, i wouldn't go that far.

5e is not perfectly balanced. but it is a heck of a lot more balanced than 3e ever was.

[ThermalSlapShot]

eh, i wouldn't go that far.

5e is not perfectly balanced. but it is a heck of a lot more balanced than 3e ever was.

Eh, no.

The casters have been pulled back, a little, but the martials have the exact same options as before. You still have linear Fighter quadratic wizard.

It's like saying that a game between a middle school basketball player and a NBA player is unfair and then putting that same middle schooler up against a UK or Duke basketball player and that is fair...

Actually 5e core is more unbalanced than tier 3 3.5. And I don't even think they attempted to make a tier 3 3.5.

[Ralanr]

If the core of your game is balanced, 4e, then when you make new stuff it is pretty darn easy to balance the new stuff.

However 5e wasn't intended to be balanced anymore than 3e (or it was and they failed horribly), they just streamlined some rules and it just looks a bit more balanced.

Wotc has only themselves to blame if they can't easily balance new stuff/mechanics.

I'm not gonna talk about 4e, I never played it.

It's not to hard to see the difficulty in combining two different systems (slots vs psionics) under a system built with one in mind (slots).

If they did make psionics core then that might be avoided.


But that's probably going to encourage you to talk about how they should get rid of all the "mundane" classes. I still stand with my opinion on the subject.

That being No.


Actually 5e core is more unbalanced than tier 3 3.5. And I don't even think they attempted to make a tier 3 3.5.

Ok now I'm curious. Care to give a few comparisons and examples that back up your case?

[CyberThread]

Eh, no.

The casters have been pulled back, a little, but the martials have the exact same options as before. You still have linear Fighter quadratic wizard.

It's like saying that a game between a middle school basketball player and a NBA player is unfair and then putting that same middle schooler up against a UK or Duke basketball player and that is fair...

Actually 5e core is more unbalanced than tier 3 3.5. And I don't even think they attempted to make a tier 3 3.5.


Eh you are showing a bit of blindness in detail. Problem with 3.5 fighters and the like was that all they could do was hit things and was rather boring. By making the skill system based more on the background system, they have healed a massive gap in what someone can do by choice.

Also the casters have been reigned in hard, by not having as many high level slots, making only once concentration at a time capability , and forcing more spells to be concentration checks. Another thing that helped split up the various things was that Clerics only get one domain, Druids while strong have to pick if they want to be more a shapeshifter or a caster, Wizards no longer get metamagic,
and sorcerers get bigger milestones that set them apart even if they are still the red headed step child of wizards.


Melee combatants get beefer effects by actually doing stuff outside of combat, getting skills that allow them to be much better in combat, and because wizards now have a concentration system forces them to have a meat blocker around to dish out distractions.


Rogues and the like have also been aided by making stabbing an easier system. Ranged combat has been greatly helped, and feats taxes are not a thing, so feat choices are a much stronger option.



So.....I think maybe you are showing your lack of understanding of the system more then anything to be frank wit you.

[ThermalSlapShot]

Ok now I'm curious. Care to give a few comparisons and examples that back up your case?

Warblade (Fighter), Crusader (Paladin), Swordsage (Monk/Rogue), Barbarian, and Ranger = martials, you can a little bit of magic if you choose. You have martials that are competent and not going to hold the story, team, or DM back (by which I mean the story, team, or DM must purposly hold their hands at a certain point).

Bard, Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, Dragon Fire Adept, Warlock. You have magic that can do incredible things, but the classes aren't unbalanced.

You can take any of those classes and MC/optimize them to high hell. However the further away from core you get, the more balanced things became. This balanced wasn't the Fighter versus Wizard balance, that was a side effect, but the Class versus The Game balance. Without optimization you have a game that is dang well balanced, and this was after the fact and when they added in new sub systems (martial adepts, Incarnum, invocations).

If you are wondering about Divine casters for tier 3... Well wotc never really did that but any of the casters can become a "divine" class. Also Belts of Battle/wands of lesser vigor/wands tend to take over the heal bots role lol.

However it was harder to make them balanced. I don't know how many 3e threads I've seen where the ttle was something like "is X balanced" and people would argue for months. However in 4e, a system balanced at the beginning, you have specific and general rules for balancing abilities. A level 3 feature will always do, generally, xdy or z [w] damage.

Now personally I have issues with 4e, but the mechanics and implementations aren't part of it (well... Some of them for the martials having dailies).

5e has everything that core 3e has. Martials can do damage, can do a bit of lock down (though 3e martials are better at that), and are limited by ideals of simulation to real world people. Mean while anything a caster wants to do is readily accepted. In the tier 3 casters from 3e each caster class had limits. They couldn't cover any role they wanted to. Look at the 5e cleric and think of a role that they can't cover.

They don't have to do it all the time either as the game is made to work with their resources.

[SharkForce]

Eh, no.

The casters have been pulled back, a little, but the martials have the exact same options as before. You still have linear Fighter quadratic wizard.

It's like saying that a game between a middle school basketball player and a NBA player is unfair and then putting that same middle schooler up against a UK or Duke basketball player and that is fair...

Actually 5e core is more unbalanced than tier 3 3.5. And I don't even think they attempted to make a tier 3 3.5.

fighters are much better in 5e than they were in 3e. the gap has been closed dramatically; skill DCs no longer go up extremely high, and many checks can be made with no proficiency, and furthermore fighters have as many skills as other classes and can choose from a much broader list of skills in the first place.

furthermore, resource difficulties mean that fighters stay roughly equal in power for the first 10 levels or so. that isn't perfect, but it's a heck of a lot better than 3e where your fighter pretty much started off kinda weak from level 1 (where single-classed casters would have enough spells to easily win all the fights the party could reasonably handle in a day since you relied completely on magical healing) and then went downhill from there so fast you get to know what freefall feels like.

not to mention there are legitimately areas where the fighter actually is better than a caster. i mean, i don't think it's the absolute most valuable role ever, but consistent reliable DPR that works against just about anything really truly is something that a fighter does better. you don't take a cleric or druid and buff them to superiority any more for the most part. even in the absolute worst situation (level 20 comparison), while fighters suffer the most, you can't just remove them and put in a caster that does everything the fighter does but better plus a bunch of other stuff the fighter could never dream of (though you can get a caster that does some of the things the fighter does fairly well, plus a bunch of stuff that the fighter could never dream of, the fighter does at least do a better job of being a fighter than casters do).

balance is not perfect in 5e. but it is much better than 3e, and it's silly to not acknowledge that at all. fighters are much better than they were, and casters are much more limited than they were. the same problems do exist to some extent, but the rate at which those problems develop is drastically reduced. anyone who plays up until level 10 or so isn't likely to be able to see any major difference in overall effectiveness between casters and non-casters. heck, some non-casters are legitimately as useful or close to as useful to have around as casters (i can't think of a single party where i wouldn't welcome a high level paladin with open arms, and while you don't *need* a monk strictly speaking i think having a monk around to punch out enemy mages before they can do bad bad things to you is a very valuable thing... and before you tell me they're casters, it is true that many of the more useful non-casters cast spells, but that really is not at all what their character revolves around, any more than a fighter with the magic initiate feat would be described as a caster).

[Ralanr]

Warblade (Fighter), Crusader (Paladin), Swordsage (Monk/Rogue), Barbarian, and Ranger = martials, you can a little bit of magic if you choose. You have martials that are competent and not going to hold the story, team, or DM back (by which I mean the story, team, or DM must purposly hold their hands at a certain point).

Bard, Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, Dragon Fire Adept, Warlock. You have magic that can do incredible things, but the classes aren't unbalanced.

You can take any of those classes and MC/optimize them to high hell. However the further away from core you get, the more balanced things became. This balanced wasn't the Fighter versus Wizard balance, that was a side effect, but the Class versus The Game balance. Without optimization you have a game that is dang well balanced, and this was after the fact and when they added in new sub systems (martial adepts, Incarnum, invocations).

If you are wondering about Divine casters for tier 3... Well wotc never really did that but any of the casters can become a "divine" class. Also Belts of Battle/wands of lesser vigor/wands tend to take over the heal bots role lol.

However it was harder to make them balanced. I don't know how many 3e threads I've seen where the ttle was something like "is X balanced" and people would argue for months. However in 4e, a system balanced at the beginning, you have specific and general rules for balancing abilities. A level 3 feature will always do, generally, xdy or z [w] damage.

Now personally I have issues with 4e, but the mechanics and implementations aren't part of it (well... Some of them for the martials having dailies).

5e has everything that core 3e has. Martials can do damage, can do a bit of lock down (though 3e martials are better at that), and are limited by ideals of simulation to real world people. Mean while anything a caster wants to do is readily accepted. In the tier 3 casters from 3e each caster class had limits. They couldn't cover any role they wanted to. Look at the 5e cleric and think of a role that they can't cover.

They don't have to do it all the time either as the game is made to work with their resources.

...That did not answer my question at all.

I meant in comparing 5e to 3.5e in terms of balance. How is 5e core unbalanced more than 3.5/that era of D&D?

[SharkForce]

...That did not answer my question at all.

I meant in comparing 5e to 3.5e in terms of balance. How is 5e core unbalanced more than 3.5/that era of D&D?

you misread his claim.

for example, you probably thought he said that 3.5 was balanced. that is not what he said.

what he said is that if you use *only* tier 3 classes from all of 3.5 throughout its entire run, 3.5 was mostly balanced.

which is of course a completely pointless thing to say, because at that point he's just telling us that after you remove all the unbalanced material from 3.5 you will be left with balanced material. true, but i can't understand what relevance it is supposed to have.

[Ralanr]

you misread his claim.

for example, you probably thought he said that 3.5 was balanced. that is not what he said.

what he said is that if you use *only* tier 3 classes from all of 3.5 throughout its entire run, 3.5 was mostly balanced.

which is of course a completely pointless thing to say, because at that point he's just telling us that after you remove all the unbalanced material from 3.5 you will be left with balanced material. true, but i can't understand what relevance it is supposed to have.

Ahh. Thank you.

[ghost_warlock]

EDIT: The emphasis is mine.

Please, explain, because I find quite the opposite to be true.

Derailment, but...

The class was literally designed around spamming a small handful of abilities day in and day out. That is exactly what is intended with invocations such as Ascendant Step and Fiendish Vigor - spamming.

As for the invocations themselves, a number of them do nothing more than allow the warlock to expend a spell slot to cast a spell that does almost the same thing as spells already on their list. For instance, in the case of Dreadful Word, the character would just as well cast Hypnotic Pattern to achieve nearly an identical, if not superior, effect without having to take an invocation to do so. Likewise, if your DM is letting you get your prescribed two short rests per day, there will seldom be a time where Ascendant Step is more useful than simply casting fly (obviously, if your DM doesn't let you rest often, then Ascendant Step becomes much more useful). These types of invocations are traps.

Likewise, invocations that provide a minuscule mechanical advantage, such as provided by the Armor of Shadows invocation vs. just wearing studded leather armor, is a trap. I would also argue that Misty Visions falls along the same lines as it's only slightly better than just casting Minor Illusion. Sign of Ill Omen gives the character a slightly more powerful version of Hex, which can't stack with Hex because the both require concentration.

If an invocation provides a worse benefit than than taking a feat, I would also call it a trap ability. Beguiling Influence is the main offender here, though Eldritch Spear would also qualify.

As for the fluff abilities, Eyes of the Rune Keeper is one of the main offenders. If you party already has another ritual caster, or if you are a Tome warlock, Eldritch Sight is both fluff and a trap. In all but the most specialized of games, Beast Speech would also fall into this category.

Taking all of that into account, warlocks have a pitifully small list of invocations that are actually an effective use of an invocation slot. And, of those, many of them still fall into the pitfall of being extremely limited in how often they can benefit from the ability (e.g., Minions of Chaos and Sculptor of Flesh are both great, but can only be used once per day).

[KorvinStarmast]

Also, count me in the camp that wants the class's name to be changed to Psion. With his horse/elephant named Mount Psion. :smallbiggrin:

@Chris

I just remember them being a pain for the DM to deal with, slowing down the game, and mostly the players who wanted to play psionicists being narcissists. It seemed at the time that the psionicist was inserted into the game solely to satisfy players who liked to cause headaches for the DM. Bingo.

Clunky implementation went all the way back to Eldritch Wizardry, Supp 3 to AD&D where Pisonics were introduced as powers and with their own encounters. The venerable 1e didn't improve upon all that much. It could be worked well, but it took a lot of effort to make it work.

Then again, Gygax was dealing with psionics and psychic energy as far back as the Strategic Review articles, which introduced the Mind Flayer ... I think before Greyhawk was published.

[CyberThread]

With his horse/elephant named Mount Psion. :smallbiggrin:

@Chris
Bingo.

Clunky implementation went all the way back to Eldritch Wizardry, Supp 3 to AD&D where Pisonics were introduced as powers and with their own encounters. The venerable 1e didn't improve upon all that much. It could be worked well, but it took a lot of effort to make it work.

Then again, Gygax was dealing with psionics and psychic energy as far back as the Strategic Review articles, which introduced the Mind Flayer ... I think before Greyhawk was published.


3e PSI was very clunky, 3.5 not so much just heavily unsupported late in the game. 5e PSI seems to be better thought out so far, with some OP abilties which are to be expected in the first test run of something only done out to level 5. One of the strongest parts of this edition over others, include 4e. Is that subclasses are inherant instead of add ons to be tacked by anything.

[Rezby]

If you feel strongly about this class, Wizards just released their official playtest survey for it! Go forth and exposit to them why they're bad and why they should feel bad.

I myself copy pasted my forum post on page 6 of this thread and submitted that, with some minor corrections and updating. Let them know what you think!

Found here: http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/july-survey

[Ralanr]

If you feel strongly about this class, Wizards just released their official playtest survey for it! Go forth and exposit to them why they're bad and why they should feel bad.

I myself copy pasted my forum post on page 6 of this thread and submitted that, with some minor corrections and updating. Let them know what you think!

Found here: http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/july-survey

I don't believe I should based on how I haven't played it yet.

When will the results be taken up? I wanna know how much time I have left.