Speculation Discussion: Why is he the -daemon- sultan?

[Xuldarinar]

While certainly a hold over, and perhaps nothing more than such, within pathfinder Azathoth has been referred to as (among other things) the daemon sultan. Even as a hold over, I see this as room for speculation. So, given this curious title for a being of the dark tapestry, what theories can we come up with regarding an in universe explanation as to why he would possess this title? Surely it doesn't amount to a cultist deciding the name was cool and it sticking as a title.


Also some, perhaps relevant information, of a daemonic nature:

In book of the damned: horsemen of the apocalypse, there is speculation that perhaps Charon predates the creation of humanoid life, and as such the form he presence likely isn't his true form. One possibility, is that what is perceived is one of his servitors serving as a mouthpiece for something "more alien" that lurks below the styx. In a later section, there is reference to mysterious tentacles that writhe up from the depths and move things around in his domain. Further discussion regarding audiences with Charon along with the secrets of his personal realm, not to mention the curious practice of daemons vomiting souls into the Styx for them to be fished out later by his thanadaemons, further indicate to me that there must be more going on here.

[Psyren]

He's called that because Lovecraft called him that in The Azathoth Cycle all the way back in 1919. It isn't a reference to Pathfinder's version of "daemons", which are NE outsiders and thus don't fit with Azathoth's alignment. You could probably change it to "demon" without any trouble since I doubt Lovecraft made any distinction between the two.

In Pathfinder his primary title is "The Primal Chaos," and the "daemon-sultan" epithet is not used in either Inner Sea Gods nor in Inner Sea World Guide.

[Xuldarinar]

He's called that because Lovecraft called him that in The Azathoth Cycle all the way back in 1919. It isn't a reference to Pathfinder's version of "daemons", which are NE outsiders and thus don't fit with Azathoth's alignment. You could probably change it to "demon" without any trouble since I doubt Lovecraft made any distinction between the two.

In Pathfinder his primary title is "The Primal Chaos," and the "daemon-sultan" epithet is not used in either Inner Sea Gods nor in Inner Sea World Guide.

Im well aware his works vastly predate Pathfinder, Azathoth's title being a hold over from that work and his depiction in various systems since then. As for his alignment (which isn't everything), consider his other name, the blind idiot god. We can consider him not unlike the Elder Evil, the leviathan, which if I recall is also CN. Not intelligent enough to be good or evil. The title "The Daemon Sultan", while not used in the places you mentioned, is used in Wake of the Watcher.

Interesting note on demons in regards to pathfinder, we have learned from the Book of the Damned: Horsemen of the Apocalypse, the first demons were created by daemons.

[Psyren]

I hope my earlier post didn't come across as chiding as that wasn't my intent. I was just pointing out that that title doesn't really fit him in PF and wasn't used anywhere else to my knowledge.

I haven't read that adventure path so I don't know the context in which they used that title, but if they didn't explain it there, you're probably not going to find it anyplace else as all the other sources I've seen use "The Primal Chaos" - which more or less fits his alignment and goals.

[atemu1234]

Im well aware his works vastly predate Pathfinder, Azathoth's title being a hold over from that work and his depiction in various systems since then. As for his alignment (which isn't everything), consider his other name, the blind idiot god. We can consider him not unlike the Elder Evil, the leviathan, which if I recall is also CN. Not intelligent enough to be good or evil. The title "The Daemon Sultan", while not used in the places you mentioned, is used in Wake of the Watcher.

Interesting note on demons in regards to pathfinder, we have learned from the Book of the Damned: Horsemen of the Apocalypse, the first demons were created by daemons.

Really, we don't particularly need to spoiler that, do we?

[Xuldarinar]

I hope my earlier post didn't come across as chiding as that wasn't my intent. I was just pointing out that that title doesn't really fit him in PF and wasn't used anywhere else to my knowledge.

It did a little bit to me, but that is the shortcoming of working with this medium. Tone is very difficult to convey, and as such some meaning can be lost that would be just fine in spoken form. It is all good



I haven't read that adventure path so I don't know the context in which they used that title, but if they didn't explain it there, you're probably not going to find it anyplace else as all the other sources I've seen use "The Primal Chaos" - which more or less fits his alignment and goals.

The title is simply used in the section detailing the deity, listed as one of his titles. It is the only time the word daemon appears in the entire thing. Even if just a throw away bit, I can certainly use it as a source of speculation, whether there is anything or not. For instance, perhaps Azathoth is responsible (directly or indirectly) for the horrible cataclysms that occurred upon the Material Plane which caused the river of souls to overflow, ultimately resulting in the creation of daemon-kind. I could speculate that Charon arrived in the early days of daemon-kind, but wasn't one himself (something the consumption of countless souls over the course of eons may have changed) but was in fact an entity that has some sort of association with Azathoth, him truly being an alien being that resides beneath the river styx and not the boatman he has led others (his fellow horsemen included) to believe.



Really, we don't particularly need to spoiler that, do we?

No idea but I felt like it. It makes sense really, given the word "demon" came from the word "daemon".

[Psyren]

The source of daemons in Golarion is the Oinodaemon, called the First Daemon or the Bound Prince, who is the forgotten "Fifth Horseman" and supposedly more powerful than the other 4 combined (if he were to get free.) He is trapped somewhere in the heart of Abaddon (NE plane) and the others visit him periodically, likely draining his power in some way.

Given Azathoth's incompatible alignment, lack of relation to Abaddon, and the fact that nowhere else seems to use the title with him, my personal view is that the line was just brought in by a writer who forgot that historic title would mean something different in a D&D/PF context. He's not even evil; I'm just not seeing a connection.

EDIT: It seems the folks in your other thread (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sf0g?Why-is-he-the-Daemon-Sultan) are leaning in the same direction - it's just a coincidence based on Lovecraft's flowery language. But there's nothing stopping you from making that connection yourself if you desire, of course.

[Xuldarinar]

I figured ultimately it would fall that way, and it didn't take it that long to go that way. Nothing stops an individual from making connections if they see fit, but there isn't really much to support any connection (Certainly much less than what supports the notion of Pelor being an evil deity). Where I see potential of a connection, others see an absence, and that is ok.

Regarding the Oinodaemon. yes. Im aware that he was the first and the rest of daemonkind followed, but again.. something occurred to put the souls there in the first place to cause him to come into being, as mentioned in the first pages of Horsemen of the Apocalypse. All we get is it was the first mass deaths, which we don't know exactly what happened just that it was horrible, that led to a soul filled with more loathing than all others combined to eventually become the first daemon. Now, what caused the event, what was it, who can truly say at this point in time? The faintest connection I can come up with, if there would be any association which people are fairly adamant there is not, would be at least the idea that some how he caused the loss of life "-for the tiniest ripple caused by Azathoth's thrashings can lay entire planets to waste." But that is just grasping at straws at this point.

Eh, the daemon sultan is a cool title regardless and I'll let the discussion die with that.